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In defense of Swamidass

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After reading Dr. Cornelius Hunter’s panning of Professor S. Joshua Swamidass’s recent article, Evidence and Evolution, I figured the professor must have written a truly awful piece. Nevertheless, I decided to go back and have a look at his article. And I’m very glad I did. Swamidass’s article was irenic in tone, easy to follow, deeply learned, and absolutely right.

Professor Swamidass’s olive branch

What Professor Swamidass was attempting to do in his article was to extend an olive branch to creationists. Nowhere in the article did he belittle or ridicule his opponents, and there was not a trace of the smug superiority which many scientists display, when talking to creationists. Indeed, he bent over backwards to be accommodating:

If we allow for God’s intervention in our history, it is possible we do not share a common ancestor with apes. Adding God into the picture, anything is possible…

Of course, adding God back into the picture, anything could have happened. An omnipotent God could have created us 6,000 years ago…

Of course, the scientific account is not the whole story. It is an open theological question how to complete the scientific account, and theological debate surrounding this question is important and engaging. One thing all should agree on; we humans are certainly more than just apes.

Nowhere in his article did Professor Swamidass argue that evolution is true, or that God made human beings via an evolutionary process. Instead, he attempted to show that the scientific evidence (taken on its own) supports human evolution, before concluding that if humans did not evolve, then theologians need to address this evidence:

Currently, it appears that, for some reason, God chose to create humans so that our genomes look as though we do, in fact, have a common ancestor with chimpanzees

It would have been very easy for God to design humans with genomes that were obviously different than apes, and clearly not a product of evolution. From some reason, He did not. He did not even make us as different from chimpanzees as mice are from rats. Why not?

Let me note for the record that young-earth creationist Todd Wood asked exactly the same question in a recent review of Fazale Rana and Hugh Ross’s revised 2015 edition of their book, Who Was Adam?:

Why do humans and chimps share such similar genomes, while the genomes of rats and mice differ so dramatically (see Mouse Genome Sequencing Consortium 2002)? What is the basis of the pattern of similarity (Wood 2006)?

…Similarity requires explanation, regardless of whether it’s similar genes or similar intergenic DNA.

Professor Swamidass draws no conclusions in his article; he merely poses a legitimate question which creationists have also wondered about. He certainly sounds like a very fair-minded man. I should add that Swamidass is a practicing Christian as well as a trained scientist. At the very least, his article warrants a courteous and carefully argued response. I regret to say that Dr. Hunter’s reply fails on this count: it is misinformed (as I’ll show below), polemical and curtly dismissive in tone, as the following extract shows:

The evolutionist has just made an unbeatable (and unfalsifiable) argument.

This is not science. Swamidass’ claim about what is and isn’t likely “without common descent” is not open to scientific scrutiny…

If Swamidass is correct then, yes, of course, the genomic data must be strong evidence for common ancestry. But it all hinges on his metaphysics. This is not about science. It never was.

Like that old baseball card, it’s just another worthless argument.

“Worthless argument”? Professor Swamidass deserves a better hearing than that.

Dr. Hunter’s criticisms of Professor Swamidass’s argument

Dr. Hunter’s failure to address the scientific evidence for common descent

Amazingly, Dr. Hunter manages to completely ignore the scientific evidence for evolution presented in Professor Swamidass’s article. Instead of addressing this evidence, he confines himself to quoting just two sentences from the article. Here’s the scientific evidence for human evolution, summarized by Swamidass, which Dr. Hunter overlooked:

In particular, be sure to check out the links to Dr. Dennis Venema’s more complete explanations of the evidence for the general public: common ancestry and genetic similarity (parts 1, 2, 3, and 4), synteny (parts 1 and 2), pseudogenes (parts 1 and 2), egg yolk (parts 1, 2, 3, and 4) and hominid evolution (hominid genetics and chromosome 2).

Evidence for human evolution: we have remnants of genes for making egg yolks

Here’s just one intriguing piece of evidence for common ancestry, which Dr. Dennis Venema writes about in a series of articles linked to by Professor Swamidass. Unfortunately, this evidence is never even mentioned by Dr. Hunter in his article:

Vitellogenins are large proteins used by egg-laying organisms to provide a store of nutrition to their embryos in egg yolk. Since vitellogenins are so large, they are a good source of amino acids when digested (proteins are made of amino acids linked together). Many of the amino acids in vitellogenins have sugars attached to them as well, so they also serve as a source of carbohydrates. The three-dimensional shape of vitellogenin proteins also acts as a carrier for lipids. As such, vitellogenins can be synthesized in the mother and transferred to the yolk as a ready-made supply of amino acids, sugars, and lipids for the developing embryo.

Placental mammals, on the other hand, use a different strategy for nourishing their embryos during development: the placenta. This connection between the mother and embryo allows for nutrient transfer right up until birth. As such, there is no need for vitellogenins, or storing up a supply in the egg yolk for the embryo to use. Evolutionary biology predicts that placental mammals descend from egg-laying ancestors, however – and one good line of evidence in support of that hypothesis (among many) is that placental mammals, humans included, have the remains of vitellogenin gene sequences in their genomes.

Dr. Hunter: we can’t say what God would or wouldn’t do

Dr. Hunter’s response to such arguments is to cry foul, on the grounds that such an argument involves an appeal to metaphysics:

A scientist cannot know that something is unlikely “without” his theory. That implies knowledge of all other possible theories. And that knowledge does not come from science.

I disagree. The scientific case for human evolution doesn’t need to specify what a Designer would or wouldn’t do. All it says is that if the Designer of life has no special reason to make X, and we discover X, then X should count as a surprising fact – and hence, a prima facie improbable one. On a special creationist account of human origins, there is absolutely no reason to expect that humans would have what appear to be the remains of genes used for making egg yolks in their DNA – just as there is no particular reason to expect that humans would be more genetically similar to chimps than rats are to mice – or for that matter, than foxes are to wolves, or horses are to donkeys. And let’s remember that most creationists consider horses and donkeys to be members of the same “kind,” just as they consider foxes and wolves to be members of the same kind, and of course, rats and mice as well (see here for a detailed discussion of kinds by Dr. Jean Lightner, from Answers in Genesis. Reasoning on Bayesian grounds, these striking and singular facts have a high probability on the hypothesis of common descent, but are surprising (and hence improbable) on a hypothesis of separate creation. One can only conclude that these facts lend scientific support to the hypothesis of common descent.

Can evolution account for the fact that humans and chimps are genetically much more similar than mice and rats?

Dr. Hunter also faults Professor Swamidass for claiming that the similarity of human and chimpanzee genomes was “predicted by common ancestry,” and that the recent scientific discovery that “humans are about 10 times more genetically similar to chimpanzees than mice are to rats” was “just as predicted by the fossil record.” Hunter replies:

First, the high chimp-human genomic similarity was not predicted by common ancestry. No such prediction was made and no such prediction is required by common ancestry. Common ancestry would be just fine with very different levels of similarity than 98-99%…

Second, Swamidass’ claim that mouse-rat divergence, compared with the chimp-human divergence, is “just as predicted by the fossil record” is also blatantly false…

In fact, before the rat genome was determined, evolutionists predicted it would be highly similar to the mouse genome.

What Dr. Hunter omits to mention is that Professor Swamidass attached a lengthy footnote, which supplies the context for his remarks about rats and mice:

A common lawyerly objection to this evidence is that these similarities are “equally” explained by common “design.” As scientists, our response to this objection is data. Many modern creationists think that the genetic evidence shows that mice and rats share a common ancestor, even though they are 10 times less similar than humans are to chimpanzees. Starting from the genetic evidence, why is it hard to believe chimpanzees and humans are related (less than 1.5% codons different), when we readily accept mice and rats are related (more than 15% different)? Of course, on the outside, not looking at our genomes, humans are very different than chimpanzees, much more different than mice are from rats. Common ancestry predicts this discrepancy between function and genetics by recognizing that genomes are better explained by evolutionary history than readily observable differences between species; mice and rats are more different because they changed more quickly (because of their shorter generation time) for a longer period of time than humans and chimpanzees. What design principle can explain why humans are 10 times more similar to chimpanzees than mice are to rats? No one knows.

While Dr. Hunter is correct in pointing out that the hypothesis of that humans and chimps shared a common ancestor, taken by itself, implies nothing about their degree of genetic similarity, he neglects to mention that scientists routinely make use of molecular clocks in order to determine when two species (A and B) diverged, based on their degree of genetic similarity. They do this by using the fossil record to determine independently when two other species (X and Y) diverged, and comparing the divergence between X and Y with that between A and B, in order to calculate the date when species A and B diverged. The basic idea here is that nucleotide sequences in DNA change over time at a rate which is roughly constant across all species, as predicted by Motoo Kimura’s neutral theory of evolution, which, as Professor P.Z. Myers explains in a 2014 blog post, has been vindicated over “selectionist” theories (which categorized mutations as either advantageous or disadvantageous) by the experimental evidence:

First thing you have to know: the revolution is over. Neutral and nearly neutral theory won. The neutral theory states that most of the variation found in evolutionary lineages is a product of random genetic drift. Nearly neutral theory is an expansion of that idea that basically says that even slightly advantageous or deleterious mutations will escape selection — they’ll be overwhelmed by effects dependent on population size. This does not in any way imply that selection is unimportant, but only that most molecular differences will not be a product of adaptive, selective changes…

When comparing the rates of change between homologous genes in different species, we had a bit of a surprise: they are very roughly, sloppily constant. That shouldn’t be true under pure selection theory, but it turns out to make a lot of sense under nearly neutral theory. There is a tradeoff in the rate of mutations occurring, and in becoming fixed in a population. A very large population size will accumulate more mutations purely by chance, but the probability of a single mutation becoming fixed in the population is reduced under large population sizes. When you do the math, you discover that population size cancels out, and the frequency of novel forms becoming fixed over time is dependent solely on the mutation rate.

Think about that. If you compare two species, the number of nucleotide differences between them is basically going to be simply the mutation rate times the number of generations separating them from their last common ancestor. That’s how we can use a molecular clock to date the time of divergence of two lineages.

Professor Soojin Yi (School of Biology, Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta) provides a helpful summary of how scientists use molecular clocks and what their limitations are, in a recent article titled “Neutrality and Molecular Clocks,” (Nature Education Knowledge 4(2):3, 2013).

So, what do the fossils show? Sahelanthropus (pictured at the top of this post), who lived around 7 million years ago, is currently considered to be very close to the last common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees (see this family tree for a summary of changes which are believed to have occurred in the human lineage). By contrast, rats and mice appear in the fossil record at least 14 million years ago, according to the Wikipedia article on Murinae (the subfamily comprising Old World rats and mice):

The first known appearance of the Murinae in the fossil record is about 14 million years ago with the fossil genus Antemus. Antemus is thought to derive directly from Potwarmus, which has a more primitive tooth pattern. Likewise, two genera, Progonomys and Karnimata, are thought to derive directly from Antemus. Progonomys is thought to be the ancestor of Mus [the common mouse – VJT] and relatives, while Karnimata is thought to lead to Rattus [the rat] and relatives. All of these fossils are found in the well-preserved and easily dated Siwalik fossil beds of Pakistan.

For more information on the evolution of rats and mice, see here.

Is the chimpanzee really the animal closest to us?

Left: A chimpanzee mother and baby, Baltimore Zoo. Cropped image, courtesy of Wikipedia.
Right: Orangutan, Semenggok Forest Reserve, Sarawak, Borneo, Malaysia. Courtesy of Wikipedia.

Dr. Hunter’s discussion of the difficulties attending the hypothesis of human evolution is even more disappointing. He begins by attacking the claim that the chimpanzee is the creature closest to human beings:

Evolutionists believe that we humans evolved from a small ape-like creature and that our closest relative on the evolutionary tree is the chimpanzee. The chimpanzee must be our closest relative, they reason, because the chimp’s genome is closest to ours, and according to evolution, genetic mutations are the fuel behind evolutionary change.

The problem with this reasoning is that the chimpanzee is not very similar to humans according to many other measures. There are enormous differences between the two species. Furthermore, in its morphology and behavior, the orangutan is closer to humans than the chimpanzee.

A quick point about the genetic similarities between humans and chimp DNA: they really are about 98% similar, as I argued in a post last year. What’s more, even alleged de novo genes found in human beings turn out to have 98% similar counterparts in chimps.

As regards Dr. Hunter’s claim that humans are morphologically more like orangutans than chimpanzees, I’m afraid he’s relying on out-of-date information here. Back in 2009, Professor Jeffrey Schwartz and Dr. John Grehan generated a brief flurry of controversy in the scientific world when they published a paper which listed 63 physical characteristics which had been verified as unique to humans and other great apes – chimps, gorillas, and orangutans – and discovered that humans shared no less than 28 of these characteristics with orangutans, but that they only shared two characteristics with chimpanzees, seven with gorillas, and seven with all three apes (chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans). Dr. Schwartz has long argued that our closest relative is the orangutan (from whom he says we diverged 12 or 13 million years ago), and he contends that the genetic data don’t tell the whole story, because most human-chimp comparisons only look at the coding region of the human genome. However, in 2010, another team of researchers (Lehtonen et al.) redid the research, using a much larger set of 300 anatomical features, and found (with a 98% degree of confidence) that the ape most similar to human beings was the chimpanzee, after all. Grehand and Schwartz hit back with a paper of their own in 2011, in which they argued that Lehtonen et al. shouldn’t have counted some of the anatomical features listed in their study, but Lehtonen et al. replied with an article showing that Grehan and Schwartz were guilty of logical inconsistencies in their methodology. In other words: evidence purporting to show that humans are physically more like orangutans than chimpanzees turned out to be highly questionable, and there’s no good reason to doubt that chimpanzees are the apes which are closest to human beings – although recent evidence suggests that the common ancestor of humans and chimps may have walked like an orangutan. However, I don’t blame Dr. Hunter for accepting the claim that humans are anatomically closer to orangutans than to chimps: at one point, I was taken in by it myself.

If even the evolution of proteins requires a Designer, how much more so does human evolution

Dr. Hunter continues:

According to evolution, you can’t have mutations occurring for some purpose, such as creating a design. And natural selection doesn’t help — it cannot induce or coax the right mutations to occur. This makes the evolution of even a single protein, let alone humans, statistically impossible.

In this passage, Dr. Hunter is alluding to the pioneering work of Dr. Douglas Axe, the author of the 2010 paper, The Case Against a Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds, which I blogged about here. See also here, here and here for follow-up comments by Dr. Axe and Dr. Ann Gauger, in response to criticisms. As far as I can judge, evolutionists have failed to mount a substantial challenge to Dr. Axe’s arguments demonstrating the astronomical improbability of certain protein folds which are essential for all living organisms having evolved by unguided processes. So I am in complete agreement with Dr. Hunter that human beings did not get here by either a chance process or by natural selection.

However, Professor Swamidass never claims in his article that human beings originated via a blind process. As I mentioned above, he’s a scientist who is a Christian. His sole aim, in writing the article, was to show creationists that there is a wealth of scientific evidence supporting the claim that human beings and chimpanzees shared a common ancestor. Nothing in that claim stipulates the mechanism whereby humans arose: it may have been a guided process or an unguided one.

The mystery of human consciousness

Next, Dr. Hunter argues that evolution cannot account for the mystery of human consciousness:

The incredible designs in the human body are not the only thing those random mutations have to create—they will also have to create human consciousness.

Evolutionists may try to explain consciousness as an “emergent” property that just luckily arose when our brain somehow evolved. Or they may try to explain that consciousness is really no more than an illusion. But these are just more demonstrations of anti-realism in evolutionary thought. Evolutionary theory constructs mechanisms and explanations that do not correspond to the real world. So this is another problem Swamidass will need to overcome.

However, nowhere in his article does Professor Swamidass attempt to argue that evolution can explain human consciousness. All he is endeavoring to demonstrate is that there is strong scientific evidence that humans and chimps had a common ancestor. Remember: the guy is a Christian, not an atheistic reductionist.

Can the relatively tiny modifications of an ape-like ancestor’s genome account for the vast differences between humans and chimps?

Dr. Hunter ridicules the notion that the morphological differences between humans and chimps can be explained by a relatively small number of modifications in their ancestors’genomes, when species that have undergone much greater genetic modification display far fewer morphological differences:

In recent decades the genomes of humans and chimps have been determined, and they make no sense on evolution. One of the main problems is that the genes of the two species are almost identical. They are only about 1-2% different and, if you’re an evolutionist, this means you have to believe that the evolution of humans from a small, primitive, ape-like creature was caused by only a tiny modification of the genome.

This goes against everything we have learned about genetics. You can insert far greater genetic changes with far less change arising as a consequence. It makes little sense that tiny genetic changes could cause such enormous design changes to occur.

Dr. Hunter’s argument is flawed, because he overlooks the fact that the vast majority of genetic changes are now known to be either neutral or nearly neutral, as explained above: they are product of random genetic drift, and they are mostly non-adaptive. By contrast, morphological changes (including the “design changes” referred to by Dr. Hunter) are often subject to natural selection, which means that they may be either beneficial or deleterious. Consequently, the degree of genetic divergence between two species tells us little or nothing about how different they are, morphologically. That explains how the morphological differences between rats and mice can be relatively slight, even though rats and mice are believed to have diverged long before humans and chimps (which are so morphologically dissimilar that they were placed in separate families until scientists discovered how similar they were genetically).

It has been calculated (Arbiza, 2006; Yu 2006; Donaldson & Gottgens 2006; Kehrer-Sawatzki & Cooper 2007) that a mere 340 beneficial mutations would have been sufficient to transform the common ancestor of man and chimp into a human being, according to biologist Ian Musgrave of Panda’s Thumb. (That’s 240 mutations in protein-coding genes and 100 in regulatory genes.) By contrast, the number of (mostly neutral) mutations occurring in the human lineage is thought to have been about 22.5 million. In other words, the neutral mutations in our lineage outnumber the beneficial mutations by about 100,000 to 1. The vast majority of genetic differences between humans and chimpanzees have nothing to do with survival, or evolutionary fitness.

Could 340 beneficial mutations have been enough to make us human?

Dr. Hunter is aware of this argument, but he doesn’t find it convincing:

Not only is evolution limited to tiny genetic modifications to create the human, but the majority of those modifications would have had to be of little or no consequence…

…[The authors of a 2005 paper on the chimpanzee-human genome comparisons] were forced to conclude that most of the mutations affecting protein-coding genes led to “neutral and slightly deleterious alleles.” So not only are evolution’s random mutation resources meager, in terms of both quality and quantity as explained above, but even worse, those mutations mostly led to “neutral and slightly deleterious alleles.”

That’s right. According to current evolutionary thinking, most of the mutations separating us from chimps were inconsequential, from a survival perspective. A relatively small number of changes – in fact, a mere 340 – made all the difference.

Now, you might be inclined to say: “That’s ridiculous!” Fine. My response is: prove it. You can’t just rely on intuition, because intuition is not infallible. To illustrate my point, consider a transition which dwarfs even the metamorphosis from an ape-like creature to a human being: the transformation from a land animal to a whale. Ask yourself: how many steps would have been required to accomplish this change? Biochemist Larry Moran has an answer for you: “Evolutionary biologists who have spent their entire careers studying evolution, genetics, and developmental biology are comfortable with a few thousand mutations causing the transformation from land animals to whales.” Crazy? That’s what I thought too, when I saw the figure. But if you do the calculations, it turns out that a few thousand mutations might be enough after all, for reasons I discussed in a recent post.

Is there any evidence for natural selection operating on the human brain?

Next, Dr. Hunter argues that the only evidence for natural selection in the human genome relates to relatively trivial functions like smell and hearing, and that there’s no evidence for natural selection operating on the human brain:

When evolutionists search for genes in the human genome that do show signs of selection, rather than neutral drift (again, under the assumption of evolution), they find only a limited repertoire of functionality. For example, one study found genes involved in the sense of smell, in digestion, in hairiness and in hearing. In other words, evolution is suggesting that we differ from the chimp mainly in those functions. It is a silly conclusion and another problem for Swamidass to explain.

Dr. Hunter neglects to inform his readers that the study he cited is a very old one: it goes back to 2003. What’s more, the study included an important disclaimer: “This study has focused only on protein-coding genes, and it will require examination of regulatory sequences to determine the contribution of regulation of gene expression to the evolutionary divergence between humans and chimps.” A more recent paper by Capra et al., published in the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B in 2013, reveals that out of the 2649 non-coding human accelerated regions (ncHARs) which they analyzed in the human genome, about 30% (or 773) function as developmental enhancers, and that using a prediction tool known as EnhancerFinder, the scientists predicted that “251 of the 773 ncHAR enhancer candidates are active in brain development, 194 are active in limb development and 39 are active in heart development.” It turned out that among the validated enhancers, brain enhancers were actually the most common. So much for Dr. Hunter’s claim that the functions identified by scientists in which humans differ from chimps mainly relate to the sense of smell, digestion, hairiness and hearing.

A molecular clock that ticks at different rates in different regions of the human genome

But Dr. Hunter has more up his sleeve. This time, he quotes from a paper dating back to 2005, which found that nucleotide divergence rates are not constant across the human genome. In other words, the molecular clock ticks at a different rate at different places:

That 2005 paper also found a host of chimp-human comparisons that are nonsensical on evolution… For example, if you look at large segments of DNA, which are corresponding in the human and the chimp, you find unexplainable variations in the chimp-human differences…The usual explanatory devices do not work, so evolutionists are left only with the claim that local variations in the mutation rate did it—which amounts to special pleading…

Hang on a minute. How big are the differences we’re talking about here? Are we talking about a ten-fold difference between divergence rates across the genome? Nope. Not even close. A five-fold difference, perhaps? Wrong again. To see what Dr. Hunter is talking about, take a look at this graph. It shows that the overall difference between human and chimp DNA is about 1.2%. If we compare different chromosomes, we find that the difference is slightly higher on some chromosomes than others. And that’s all. If we look at the median figures for chromosome pairs 1 to 22, we find that the genetic difference between humans and chimps varies from about 1.1% to a little under 1.4%. The authors were a little surprised that there was even that much variation, and they wrote: “The average divergence in 1-Mb segments [of the genome – VJT] fluctuates with a standard deviation of 0.25%, which is much greater than the 0.02% expected assuming a uniform divergence rate.” To recap: the study’s authors reported that the mean divergence between human and chimp DNA is 1.2%, and if the molecular clock ticked at a uniform rate across the genome, then the authors would have expected relatively slight variations in this divergence. Instead, they found fluctuations with a standard deviation of 0.25%, which is still insignificant compared to the mean divergence of 1.2%. In other words: so what? Dr. Hunter is making a mountain out of a molehill.

Local variations in the genetic divergence rate between humans and chimps

Dr. Hunter continues:

The supposed divergence rate between chimps and humans not only has an unexplainable variation in large, 1-Mb segments of DNA, it also has an unexplainable variation towards the ends of most chromosomes. This is another problem that seems to make no sense on evolution, which Swamidass must explain.

But that’s not all.

This supposed divergence rate between chimps and humans also has an unexplainable variation that correlates with chromosomal banding. Again, this makes no sense on evolution. Why should the chimp-human divergence vary with the banding pattern? Evolutionists have only just-so stories to imagine why this would have happened, and it is another problem for Swamidass to address.

So, how much of a variation are we talking about here? If we look at the graph provided by the authors of the study, we see that even near telomeres (the ends of chromosomes), the level of divergence between human and chimp DNA never gets above 2.1%, and elsewhere in the genome, it never falls below 1.0%. In other words, we’re talking about a two-fold variation in the rate at which the molecular clock ticks, in the worst possible case. Earth-shattering, isn’t it?

Dr. Hunter wonders why the level of chimp-human genetic divergence would vary with the chromosomal banding pattern, and why it would be higher near the ends of chromosomes, if humans evolved. Short answer: I don’t know, and neither do the study’s authors. But I’d like to ask Dr. Hunter a question: can he account for these facts, on a creationist account of origins? He can’t. In other words, what we have is a curious fact which neither evolution nor creation explains well, and which is fatal to neither theory – or putting it more succinctly, much ado about nothing.

Can evolution account for the dissimilarities in rat and mouse genomes?

But Dr. Hunter thinks he has another ace up his sleeve: the fact that the genetic difference between mice and rats is about 10 times greater than that between humans and chimps.

This supposed divergence rate between chimps and humans is not consistent with the supposed divergence rate between the mouse and rat. The mouse-rat divergence is about an order of magnitude greater than the chimp-human divergence. And yet the mouse and rat are much more similar than the chimp and human. It makes no sense on evolution. In fact, before the rat genome was determined, evolutionists predicted it would be highly similar to the mouse genome…

The prediction that the mouse and rat genomes would be highly similar made sense according to evolution. But it was dramatically wrong.

Dr. Hunter is right on one point: scientists were at first surprised to discover that the genetic difference between rats and mice was so large. That’s because they based their prediction on the morphological differences between rats and mice, which are relatively small, and inferred that the genetic difference would be small, too. That was a big mistake, for reasons explained above: the vast majority of the genetic differences between any two species are neutral or near-neutral mutations, which dwarf beneficial mutations by a factor of about 100,000 to 1. However, the fossils tell a different story: rats and mice diverged at least 14 million years ago, compared with 6 or 7 million years for humans and chimps. And when scientists calculate the time of divergence using genetic differences, they arrive at a median figure of 17.9 million years ago for the date when rats and mice diverged, versus 6.2 million years ago for the split between humans and chimps, according to timetree.org. I’d say that tallies reasonably well with the fossil record. And I don’t say that lightly: I have in the past been highly critical of inconsistencies in the molecular clock, which I highlighted in a post written four years ago. There is still a lot we don’t know, and alert readers will have noticed that current estimates of the date when humans and chimps diverged vary considerably, as this graph reveals. Nevertheless, the vast majority of the estimates lie between four and nine million years ago, so we’re talking about a two-fold variation, which is still far less than even one order of magnitude. That’s annoying, but scientists can live with it, just as astronomers back in the 1970s and 1980s were able to live with the fact that the age of the universe lay somewhere between 10 and 20 billion years, depending on the method you used to measure it. (They’ve now concluded that it’s 13.8 billion years old.)

Dr. Hunter’s last stand

But Dr. Hunter believes he has one more argument that will demolish the case for human evolution:

The mouse-rat divergence date is estimated by evolutionists to be older than the chimp-human divergence date. Furthermore, the lifespan and generation time for mice and rats are much shorter than for chimps and humans. From this perspective, and given these two effects, one would conclude that the mouse-rat genetic divergence should be much greater—at least two orders of magnitude greater—than the chimp-human genetic divergence. But it isn’t. It is only about one order of magnitude greater.

Wrong. As we’ve seen, mice and rats diverged around 18 million years ago, compared with around six million years ago for humans and chimps. That’s a three-fold difference. What about the effects of generation time on the molecular clock? Soojin Yi addresses this point in her 2013 paper, “Neutrality and Molecular Clocks,” which I cited above:

Wu & Li (1985) were the first to test the generation-time effect hypothesis using DNA sequence data. They used data from 11 genes of primates and rodents. Since primates have a much longer generation time than rodents do, the molecular clock should be faster in rodents compared to primates. Indeed, they found that for synonymous sites, rodents show approximately two times the rate of molecular evolution when compared to primates (Wu & Li 1985). For nonsynonymous sites however, such an effect was not found. In other words, the neutral molecular clock, but not the amino acid molecular clock, ticks faster in the rodent lineage compared to the primate lineage, which fits well with the idea of a generation-time effect.

So the neutral molecular clock ticks twice as fast for rats and mice as it does for primates. Multiply that by the three-fold difference between the 18-million-year-old mouse-rat divergence date estimated by evolutionists and the 6-million-year-old human-chimp divergence date, and you get an expected level of genetic divergence which is just six times greater – and not two orders of magnitude (or 100 times) greater, as calculated by Dr. Hunter. This figure of a six-fold difference comports well with the ten-fold genetic divergence reported by Professor Swamidass in footnote 2 of his article: at least 15% of the codons in rats and mice are different, compared with less than 1.5% in humans and chimps.

Conclusion

There is a lot that we still don’t know about human origins. I accept that. But it would be foolish to deny that the scientific evidence points clearly to our having shared a common ancestor with the chimpanzee. Such a conclusion is in no way at odds with Intelligent Design.

What do readers think?

UPDATE:

Readers may wish to peruse the following articles, written in response to my post and to Professor Swamidass’s article, “Evidence and Evolution”:

A Response to VJTorley by Dr. Cornelius Hunter.
One Long Argument — Responding to VJ Torley on Human-Ape Common Descent by Dr. Cornelius Hunter.
Of Tree Rings and Humans by David Klinghoffer.
Debating Common Ancestry by John West.

Professor Swamidass has also written a follow-up article:
Call for Response to the Tree.

I also wrote a short comment in response to Professor Swamidass’s article, “Evidence for Evolution”, which has recently been updated with an FAQ section:

Hi Dr. Swamidass,

Thank you very much for your kind remarks about my post on Uncommon Descent.

I’d just like to comment briefly on what you said about Dr. Hunter in the FAQ:

“Third, I do believe that Dr. Hunter is not being intentionally deceptive or manipulative. I believe he is making a good faith effort, to the best of his abilities, to engage the evidence I have raised.”

I would like to endorse what you said. I pulled no punches in my post, and on a few occasions, I did criticize Dr. Hunter for relying on flawed arguments. I also wrote that he “neglects to inform” his readers on a couple of basic points. For the record, I wish to make it quite clear that I am not accusing Dr. Hunter of being intentionally deceptive. All of us are, at times, guilty of an unintentional bias towards arguments that we personally favor, and it is all too easy to ignore what we might perceive as very minor or trivial problems in these arguments, when presenting them to an audience. That was what I had in mind when I wrote about Dr. Hunter’s “neglect.”

Despite my differences with Dr. Hunter, I have the greatest respect for him as a Christian, and I would like to thank him for his forbearance and courtesy.

Likewise, when I referred to Dr. Hunter in my post as believing he had an ace up his sleeve, I was not implying that he was resorting to any sleight-of-hand or trickery. Rather, I was using the term in the sense in which the Cambridge English dictionary defines it: secret knowledge or a secret skill that will give you an advantage.

For the record, I believe Dr. Hunter to be an honest man. And I apologize for any pain or distress suffered by Dr. Hunter as a result of reading my post. I wish him well.

Comments
Dr Torley I saw your short reply but please help me understand why apes in these artistic impressions have human eyes? How can we accept this assumption or speculation as true?Andre
May 13, 2016
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Gpuccio So are we then in full agreement that CD is first and foremost an assumption?Andre
May 13, 2016
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Swamidass:
Let us imagine that God creates a fully grown tree today, and places it in a forest. A week later, a scientist and a theologian encounter this tree...the theologian should wonder why God would not leave clear, indisputable evidence that this 100 year-old tree is just a week old.
Huh? It's only a week old. God created this one week old tree with 100 rings.Mung
May 13, 2016
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Swamidass:
The scientist bores a hole in the tree, and counts its rings. There are 100 rings, so he concludes that the tree is 100 years old. Who is right? In some senses, both the scientist and the theologian are right. God created a one week old tree (the true age) that looks 100 years old (the scientific age). Moreover, it would be absurd for the theologian to deny the 100 rings that the scientist uncovered, or to dispute the scientific age of the tree. Likewise, the scientist cannot really presume to disprove God. Instead, the theologian should wonder why God would not leave clear, indisputable evidence that this 100 year-old tree is just a week old.
Did God reveal to the scientist that one ring means one year? Why would the theologian deny that there were 100 rings?
Likewise, the scientist cannot really presume to disprove God.
Great! The tree is one week old, God said so.
Instead, the theologian should wonder why God would not leave clear, indisputable evidence that this 100 year-old tree is just a week old.
The evidence indicates the tree is 1 week old. 100 rings = 1 week. The question is, what would leave clear, indisputable evidence that this 100 year-old tree is just a week old? Does Swamidass answer this question?Mung
May 13, 2016
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Swwamidass:
Let us imagine that God creates a fully grown tree today, and places it in a forest. A week later, a scientist and a theologian encounter this tree. The theologian believes that God is trustworthy and has clearly communicated to him that this tree was created just a week ago. The scientist bores a hole in the tree..,
Why on earth would the theologian believe that God has communicated to him that this tree was created just a week ago? Why would the theologian not take the same approach as the scientist?Mung
May 13, 2016
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I know the primary motivation in these blogs is just to talk ad nauseum, but truthfully, there is absolutely no evidence for any form of evolution. Evolution is the theory that every creature transformed from an earlier one. No one has ever evolved a species B from species A using random processes. No circumstantial evidence has ever been shown to do this either. So obviously, primate to human evolution is just speculation. There is no valid scientific reason to argue it. Also, VJ, you can't hold a candle to Cornelius. He is the world greatest evolutionary expert. He understands the science, philosophy, and flawed human nature. You are not fit to clean his sandals.Peter
May 13, 2016
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Genesis 1:26-27 (ASV):
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
No mention of how man was created or from what materials man was created. So why are so many people opposed to the common descent of man?Mung
May 13, 2016
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Just so we all know what we are debating: Joshua Swamidass
Before summarizing the evidence supporting the common descent of man, I want to start with a story. This story is meant to reduce the fear some feel when encountering evidence that might contradict their understanding of the Bible.
What does the Bible say about the origin of man? How does "the scientific consensus" differ from what the Bible says about the origin of man? How does "common descent ID" differ from what the Bible says about the origin of man? How does Swamidass address and resolve these questions?Mung
May 13, 2016
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Interesting and thought provoking OP, Dr Torley. Thank you.mike1962
May 13, 2016
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gpuccio:
My main purpose here was to remind that the arguments for rejecting CD are completely different from the arguments for ID, a concept that many tend to forget.
The arguments for accepting CD are metaphysical, while the arguments for ID are scientific. :)Mung
May 13, 2016
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Hi everyone, Back again. For those who would argue that rates of fixation in the human line can't be explained by the neutral theory of evolution, I should say that this was once my view, by I was forced to revise it when I examined the evidence. I discussed this on UD a couple of years ago in a series of posts. Here they are, from latest to earliest: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/when-im-wrong/ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/branko-kozulic-responds-to-professor-moran/ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-short-post-on-fixation/ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/can-the-neutral-theory-of-evolution-explain-what-makes-us-human/ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/fixation-the-neutral-theorys-achilles-heel/ https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/so-why-are-the-human-and-chimpanzeebonobo-genomes-so-similar-a-reply-to-professor-larry-moran/ Enjoy! Re the white of the eye, or sclera: no-one is sure when it evolved, although some have suggested that it appeared when Homo ergaster/erectus arose in Africa. See this discussion: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=427666vjtorley
May 13, 2016
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Hi everyone, I'm off to work in a few minutes, so I'll have to be brief. First, I'd like to thank Professor Swamidass for his kind comments on my post. I appreciate his confirmation of the fact that he was extending an olive branch to the creationist community. Second, I'd like to point out that common descent is simply a hypothesis about ancestry. It does not say anything about the processes whereby we diverged from our ancestors. If Dr. Hunter wishes to point to unique designs found in various lineages, then he is welcome to do so. But that's an argument for Intelligent Design, not an argument against common ancestry. Third, I do in fact believe that the process whereby humans arose from a chimp-like ancestor was an intelligently guided process. You just can't get a magnificent organ like the human brain via a process of random mutations and natural selection. Fourth, I strongly believe that if you're going to argue against common descent, then you need to make sure your arguments are up-to-date and scientifically watertight, and that they are telling arguments. Some readers have written about conflicting genetic trees. But if you look at the big picture, the vast majority point to us having the chimp as our closest relative. A few trees which focus on particular genes point to it being the gorilla instead of the chimp, but that's hardly surprising, if gorillas diverged from the line leading to humans and chimps only a short time before humans and chimps split off from one another. Got to go now. I'll be back later.vjtorley
May 13, 2016
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gpuccio: In my experience, it is not that CD advocates are unaware of the contradictory evidence, it is that that evidence doesn't matter. This raises the question of what exactly is their line of reasoning, such that they are not vulnerable to such evidence?Cornelius Hunter
May 13, 2016
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gpuccio: Are you familiar with Paul Nelson's analysis of the common descent issue, in particular his 2005 presentation in Helsinki, Finland? I'd be curious to know your thoughts about his approach.Eric Anderson
May 13, 2016
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Andre: I am not a fan of any tree of life, and even if a tree of life is accepted in principle, we are certainly very far from having any credible model for it. Even darwinists have completely different ideas about the tree of life and especially its rooting. I don't even believe that life necessarily originated once. I have said many times that, while I accept the general principle of Common Descent, there is really no evidence that it need be universal. We know too little about OOL. My current idea is that life originated with some form of prokaryotes. I have said many times that in my opinion LUCA was also FUCA. But that is only a conjecture at present. We need more facts, and I am confident that more facts will come. But even darwinists accept that LUCA was not necessarily a single type of organism. A multicentric OOL, and multicentric development of species are a possibility, especially in a design paradigm. However, some form of Common Descent is IMO always a necessary inference, with the facts that we have at present. I respect your skepticism, even if I am not a great fan of the word, given the way it has been used in our recent culture. Regarding Darwin's assumptions, I am not only skeptical about them: I reject them completely. As I have tried to explain, my acceptance of Common Descent is purely empirical and based on molecular data, and has really nothing to do with Darwin and his ideas.gpuccio
May 13, 2016
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Cornelius Hunter: Thank you for clarifying better your position. I appreciate it. I have tried to detail better my ideas on the subject in my posts in this thread. However we may differ, believe me, my convictions are in no way due to any "acceptance" of traditional darwinian ideas. I think I can safely state that I am at least as critical of darwinism as you are, but sometimes in different ways. :)gpuccio
May 13, 2016
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Origenes: "Suppose that a sudden explicit design intervention takes place and a new specie, the sawfly, emerges from some components of the wasp. Suppose further that the implementation of this sawfly in nature is instant. Would you then say that ants, bees, wasps and sawflies share a ‘common ancestor’? Or would you argue that wasps and sawflies share a ‘common ancestor’, namely the wasp?" Well, I would say that wasps and sawflies share a common ancestor in the wasp (as it was at the time of the split, even if instantaneous). And if that "ancient" wasp was itself derived from a common ancestor of bees, wasps, and ants, then the sawfly too would have some connection with that older ancestor. You see, I look at the problem not so much from the point of view of species, but rather from the point of view of information and sequences. The important point is that sequences "travel" through different species retaining a physical continuity. Now, let's say that some protein A, which was already present in the common precursor of ants, wasps and bees, is passed finally to the sawfly. The point is, neutral variation can happen in the sequence at different times. So, specific variations which were present in the wasp from which the sawfly derived will probably be observed in the sawfly and in wasps, but they could not be present in ants and bees. While other neutral variations which were already present in the common ancestor could be observed in all the lines derived from it. Of course it is not so simple, and there are problems, exceptions and often true enigmas. That's why I think that the really important thing is not so much to have a final "tree of life", but rather to understand the pathway of information in sequences. For us in ID, that is specially important, because what we really want is to understand when and how new functional information is added to the existing pool of genomes and proteomes. Our best chance to distinguish between non relevant (neutral or quasi neutral) digital information and functional digital information (designed information) is in comparing sequences between species and trying to understand their history. If we reject all forms of common descent, then how do we explain the differences in similar molecules in different species? I am convinced that some of them are functional, and I have defended that idea many times here. But frankly, I cannot accept the idea that all differences in similar sequences are functional, which is the extreme consequence of trying to explain everything by common design. We know that errors happen in biological reproduction. We know that mutations and variation are a constant component of the biological world. We know that many forms of variation are neutral. We know that many proteins are rather tolerant to many forms of variation, while others are not. We cannot deny those things, because we can observe them happening. And if neutral variation happens daily, then it must generate diversity in functional sequences. Therefore, part of the differences we observe must be due to neutral variation. And if those differences are grossly proportional to chronological separation between species (and believe me, that is generally true) how can you explain that simple fact, if not by the accumulation of neutral variation throughout natural history, by a physical continuity of species?gpuccio
May 13, 2016
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Thank you to all the people participating hopefully we can slug this out and everyone will walk away a little bit richer in understanding. I think I need to define my terms clearly, I am not opposed to CD but I simply do not find the evidence convincing enough and here is why. Firstly CD is a general assumption in biology that life arose on earth once, and that all organisms are related in some way. All good and well except; assumptions are not scientific evidence is it? Dr Craig Venter in his infamous video where he denied common descent said; "The tree of life is an artifact of some early scientific studies that aren't really holding up...So there is not a tree of life." The entire world has been trying to verify and acknowledge Darwin's Tree of life which was his assumption in the first place! CD is evolutionary biology's sacred cow or as William Dembski once said on these very same pages of Uncommon Descent "Common descent is the sanctum sanctorum of evolutionary biology.” I simply cannot help in remaining skeptical, because I don't accept Darwin's assumption.Andre
May 13, 2016
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Gpuccio, thank you for the explanation. I have one more question wrt ‘common ancestor’.
Gpuccio: Of course, in many cases, the ancestor could be different from all its progenies, probably because of explicit different designs. For examples, ants and bees and wasps probably share a common ancestor, and it could well be that the old ancestor was neither an ant, nor a bee, nor a wasp, but something a little different, which was then engineered in three different directions.
Suppose that a sudden explicit design intervention takes place and a new specie, the sawfly, emerges from some components of the wasp. Suppose further that the implementation of this sawfly in nature is instant. Would you then say that ants, bees, wasps and sawflies share a ‘common ancestor’? Or would you argue that wasps and sawflies share a ‘common ancestor’, namely the wasp?Origenes
May 13, 2016
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gpuccio: =========== I am aware that there are inconsistencies in different trees. That can be a very good argument against the specific methods and assumptions about those trees, not necessarily against the general concept of CD. =========== If they are not good arguments against CD, then the question arises, does CD have any empirical content? More below … =========== I don’t really understand your position about CD. =========== Well it seems pretty clear to me that there are big scientific problems with CD. I’m talking about things like lineage-specific biology. Biology is loaded with one-off designs, all over the place. Species that otherwise are similar and adjacent on the evolutionary tree have all kinds of unique designs under the hood. CD just doesn’t work. If CD was vulnerable to the empirical evidence it would have been dropped, or at least acknowledged to be problematic. But CD does not seem to be vulnerable to the empirical evidence. The evidence has been viewed as rare anomalies and not normative.Cornelius Hunter
May 13, 2016
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bill cole: Thank you for your comments. I want to be very clear. I absolutely agree that there are huge differences between species, even between those which have many similarities, and probably some common origin. That's because design is there, everywhere, in huge amounts. Even one single new functional protein is a wonderful example of design, as I have always tried to show with detailed analyses which make a good use (I think) of the concept of Common Descent. I absolutely believe that those differences are complex, and that they must be explained by huge differences in information content, be it at genetic or epigenetic level, or anywhere else that we don't understand. In that sense I slightly disagree with VJ that relatively small genetic differences can explain, for example, the differences between humans and chimps. But he is right in requesting that these ideas should find scientific confirmation in new levels if understanding. I am confident that they will. I absolutely agree that the concept of CD has been almost always conflated with the idea of unguided evolution, and that the consequences for science of that kind of ideological application have been and still are tragic. That's probably the reason why so many feel the need to reject CD together with the theory of unguided evolution. That's exactly the reason why I think it is really important to distinguish between the two things. You say: "I think this debate is important". I think so too. And I am grateful for your very balanced contribution. I have not the time now, but I will certainly look at the discussion you linked. I am really interested.gpuccio
May 13, 2016
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Origenes: "Okay. But my point is that if a specie A has similarities with specie B, then this does not necessarily mean that it “clearly” points to the existence of a common ancestor, as VJTorley claims. Specie B can be an intelligently modified version of specie A, as in your example." I do think that species B is an intelligently modified version so species A. Maybe it's just a question of words, But let's say that species A exists at time 1. Then, at some point, because of an explicit design intervention (which could be sudden or gradual, that's not the point here), species B emerges from some component, or components, of species A. The time passes, and species B goes for its way, up to time 2. Let's say that species A also go for its way, up to time 2. Now, at time 2, we have species B, which is clearly different from species A (because of design), and species A at time 2, which can be very similar to species A at time 1, or maybe have changed in some way (because of design, or simply of natural variation, that's not important here). Now, I think we can correctly say that species A as it was at time 1 is a common ancestor of species B and species A at time 2, however different or similar this can be to the common ancestor. I think this is the meaning of "sharing a common ancestor). Of course, in many cases, the ancestor could be different from all its progenies, probably because of explicit different designs. For examples, ants and bees and wasps probably share a common ancestor, and it could well be that the old ancestor was neither an ant, nor a bee, nor a wasp, but something a little different, which was then engineered in three different directions. Do you have problems with such a scenario?gpuccio
May 13, 2016
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gpuccio
My main purpose here was to remind that the arguments for rejecting CD are completely different from the arguments for ID, a concept that many tend to forget.
I think this debate is important and I am grateful for Cornelius, Joshua and VJ engaging. I hope out of this we will get a clear definition of Common Decent because I think it has multiple meanings among those engaged in the ID evolution debates. I had a conversation with Michael Behe this weekend on the subject and am in agreement how he views this. Here is our discussion starting at 1:23. Salvador Cordova is also participating .https://youtu.be/hIy7BhVgPCsbill cole
May 13, 2016
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gpuccio Here is what I responded to Joshua on Cornelius blog. S Joshua SwamidassMay 12, 2016 at 9:46 PM The article I wrote did not make any claims about mechanisms. It did not even argue that evolution was true. VJ get's my article correctly. He is spot on. Bill ColeMay 13, 2016 at 10:01 AM Joshua Got it. "For me common decent is a misleading term because it came with the theory when the mechanism RMNS was assumed. You are claiming common biochemistry which is true but to round out the article differences must also be clearly examined and hopefully this debate will shake them out. While the DNA similarity is very true the splicing differences are the largest among all vertebrates...abstract below. The Evolutionary Landscape of Alternative Splicing in Vertebrate Species Nuno L. Barbosa-Morais1,2, Manuel Irimia1,*, Qun Pan1,*, Hui Y. Xiong3,*, Serge Gueroussov1,4,*, Leo J. Lee3, Valentina Slobodeniuc1, Claudia Kutter5, Stephen Watt5, Recep Çolak1,6, TaeHyung Kim1,7, Christine M. Misquitta-Ali1, Michael D. Wilson4,5,7, Philip M. Kim1,4,6, Duncan T. Odom5,8, Brendan J. Frey1,3, Benjamin J. Blencowe1,4,† Author Affiliations ?†To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: b.blencowe@utoronto.ca ?* These authors contributed equally to this work. ?????????????????????????????????????????????????+ ?????? ABSTRACT How species with similar repertoires of protein-coding genes differ so markedly at the phenotypic level is poorly understood. By comparing organ transcriptomes from vertebrate species spanning ~350 million years of evolution, we observed significant differences in alternative splicing complexity between vertebrate lineages, with the highest complexity in primates. Within 6 million years, the splicing profiles of physiologically equivalent organs diverged such that they are more strongly related to the identity of a species than they are to organ type. Most vertebrate species- specific splicing patterns are cis-directed. However, a subset of pronounced splicing changes are predicted to remodel protein interactions involving trans-acting regulators. These events likely further contributed to the diversification of splicing and other transcriptomic changes that underlie phenotypic differences among vertebrate species."bill cole
May 13, 2016
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To all here: I am not really so motivated to defend Common Descent with all the people here who reject it. However, I have expressed my views and obviously I am ready to discuss them with anyone who is interested in the details. My main purpose here was to remind that the arguments for rejecting CD are completely different from the arguments for ID, a concept that many tend to forget. Just as an example of how CD is such a strong support for ID, I want to remind that all my examples about conserved function in natural history, and Durston's method to assess functional information in protein families, all rely on the assumption that proteins undergo common descent and neutral variation. That's why if a sequence is conserved between distant species we can infer that it is functionally constrained. If we reject CD, all those arguments lose their meaning, which is not good news for ID, IMO.gpuccio
May 13, 2016
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bill cole: "Since ID is an inference I think any claim about common decent is beyond the science. Common decent is a claim on how the change occurred i.e. the genome was a modified version of the chimp genome. How would we know this? What we observe is common biochemistry. Anything beyond this is pure speculation without evidence." I am not sure I understand your point. ID is an inference. Common descent is an inference. All empirical science is an inference. Some inferences are good, some are bad. IMO, ID is a very very good inference. Common descent is probably a good inference, at least with what we know at present. Neo darwinian evolution is a very very bad inference. You say: "What we observe is common biochemistry." No, what we observe is especially common digital information, common sequences and patterns in sequences, characterized by both similarities and differences. As I have said, similarities and neutral variation are IMO best explained by some form of Common Descent. Functional variation is definitely best explained by design.gpuccio
May 13, 2016
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Cornelius Hunter: I am aware that there are inconsistencies in different trees. That can be a very good argument against the specific methods and assumptions about those trees, not necessarily against the general concept of CD. I agree that many of the concepts that are currently proposed are probably false. My point is simply that we can observe a lot of variation which seems reasonably neutral, and that some form of common descent remains the best way to explain that. I don't know what your position is about that. Do you think that each species appeared designed from scratch? Do you think that neutral variation does not exist? Just to understand. I agree with you on many ideas, but I don't really understand your position about CD.gpuccio
May 13, 2016
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gpucccio
Origenes: I cannot speak for VJ Torley, but I don’t think that he means that CD is unguided. I believe that, like me, he conceives CD as designed CD. Why do you think that his sentence:
Since ID is an inference I think any claim about common decent is beyond the science. Common decent is a claim on how the change occurred i.e. the genome was a modified version of the chimp genome. How would we know this? What we observe is common biochemistry. Anything beyond this is pure speculation without evidence.bill cole
May 13, 2016
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gpuccio: ======== It’s the differences which are the strongest argument for CD. Not the functional differences, which obviously can and must be interpreted as new design. But the neutral differences, the neutral variation in sequences which retain their functionality. That is the true strong argument for common descent. So many proteins remain similar throughout natural history, and yet we can observe growing divergence, neutral divergence, roughly proportional to the chronological separation between species. IOWs, proteins change because of neutral variation, as far as the change does not significantly affect their function. ======== This point is commonly made in textbooks, and dates back many years. It reflects a theory-laden, evolutionary interpretation of the data, not a theory-neutral view. For example, you may be interested in these: https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/gene-phylogenies-are-congruent https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/the-species-should-form-an-evolutionary-tree https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/similar-species-share-similar-genesCornelius Hunter
May 13, 2016
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Gpuccio:
Origenes: Isn’t it obvious that similarities only point in the direction of a common ancestor if we assume blind watchmaker evolution to be true?
Why? It does not seem obvious to me. A designer who acts on some existing species can certainly modify it by some form of biological engineering transforming it into another, new species. (….)
Suppose that here the existing specie is the chimpanzee and the new specie is us humans. That would fit the data, right? No need for a common ancestor.
Gpuccio: (…) In that case, the new species is designed, but we can certainly say that the original species is an ancestor. IOWs, we have descent with designed modifications. But descent it is, anyway.
Okay. But my point is that if a specie A has similarities with specie B, then this does not necessarily mean that it “clearly” points to the existence of a common ancestor, as VJTorley claims. Specie B can be an intelligently modified version of specie A, as in your example. To be clear, I object against: VJTorley: (…) it would be foolish to deny that the scientific evidence points clearly to our having shared a common ancestor with the chimpanzee.Origenes
May 13, 2016
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