In Fairness to the Materialists

_{Barry Arrington

September 18, 2016

Intelligent Design}

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As a follow-up to my last post, I think it is only fair for me to highlight all of the Christian gangbangers who renounced their faith in Christ, converted to materialist atheism, and turned from a life of hate and violence to a life of love, mercy and sacrifice for their families.

Oh wait, no such person exists. Never mind. Carry on with what you were doing.

Comments

rvb8, Can you tell me anything more about the awe you feel about the universe and nature in general? I've heard many speak of it, but beyond a few statements about it, I never hear any more details or deeper discussion. Yes the universe is big, and living things are more complex than I can fully grasp, but facts such as those still leave me cold.EDTA_{September 19, 2016
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rvb8, On the off chance you do watch any of Rosaria Butterfield's testimony, this one is a more engaging testimony that you may more readily identify with.
My Train Wreck Conversion - Rosaria Butterfield https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVTTsD9o1IM
bornagain77_{September 19, 2016
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rvb8 @24 You offer no material explanation. Your worldview must be grossly inadequate. Your reasons why are immaterial. What I do see is a crutch that allows you to fault others for the very real, as opposed to illusory, decision you, not your physiology, made.
My Catholic upbringing was weak, my mother was staunch, but my dad went to Church to sleep I think, and this became the ‘injoke’ of his off spring. I suppose it was beyond my control to become an atheist, as it was the environment that lead to it.
What you describe appears to be almost identical to my experience growing up in a protestant family. Yet the result wasn't beyond my control because I had the free-will to make the opposite choice based on immaterial ideas.bb_{September 19, 2016
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So God interfered with your sexual desires thus you chose 'sexual freedom' over God? Nothing new there:
“I had motives for not wanting the world to have a meaning; and consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics. He is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do. For myself, as no doubt for most of my friends, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation from a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom. The supporters of this system claimed that it embodied the meaning - the Christian meaning, they insisted - of the world. There was one admirably simple method of confuting these people and justifying ourselves in our erotic revolt: we would deny that the world had any meaning whatever.” Aldous Huxley, Ends and Means
Of related note:
Secret Thoughts Of An Unlikely Convert | Rosaria Butterfield and Russell Moore https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc8wPOHksYs From Lesbian Professor to Pastor's Wife Rosaria Champagne Butterfield on holy sexuality and how to love our (lesbian) neighbors as ourselves http://www.todayschristianwoman.com/articles/2014/february-week-1/from-lesbian-professor-to-pastors-wife.html
bornagain77_{September 19, 2016
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I am accused of not addressing the post. OK, I'll address it. Barry says, 'Christian gangbangers who renounced their faith in Christ...' Well, number one, as a former Catholic, my faith was always slack, most Catholics are like this, I mean look at Italy, 98% Catholic, and condom sales through the roof. (That's funny by the way, you are allowed to smile, God really won't mind, He told me, Heh:) So, my 'determined' starting point was ripe for atheism, thank God! Heh:) Number two, your 'determined' starting point was something I do not know, but would be 'determined' by your experiences, and are opposite to mine; bad luck, sorry. Then Barry says, 'turned from a life of hate and violence, to a life of love etc'. No! Not really. My Catholic upbringing was weak, my mother was staunch, but my dad went to Church to sleep I think, and this became the 'injoke' of his off spring. I suppose it was beyond my control to become an atheist, as it was the environment that lead to it. Just as it is your various environments that cause you to be so dogmatic, narrowminded, and, I'm sorry to say, guilt ridden. There is hope however, perhaps my determanistic contributions can 'wedge' open an area within your 'mind' to let some rays of 'unguilty' thinking in. There really is no need to continue your servile existance; "Knowledge sets you free." (My own quote.) I am not guilty of being patronising here, as Barry often is. I do genuinely hope that you can see the grandeur of life without recourse to human invention. UDEditors: Really? You think this addresses the OP? That is kind of sad.rvb8_{September 19, 2016
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@rvb8 How did you change from Catholic to Atheist? Did your brain grow? Did it shrink? What was the physiological/chemical change? A change in average room temperature at home or work? A drug you started taking? A drug you quit? Was it a stale Eucharist or a particular wine vintage served at Communion? Wind speed? Humidity? Climate/global-warming? "Why?" isn't the question for a materialist because that would result in a series of sentences that describe immaterial ideas weighed and debated by an illusory you. It would point to a choice made by a material unit only at the mercy of physics and physiology, which render free-will another illusion. It could possibly point to an offense perpetrated by another material unit, with its own moral system that is completely independent of any mythical objective moral standard, that you expected it to observe for some reason. And driven by genes to do whatever it can to survive and reproduce without it being necessary to take your illusory "feelings" of pride and self-worth into account. You're welcome to explain why, but you have to understand that any attempt to do so undermines your current position which only allows for a mechanical "how". The reason(s) you left Catholicism is/are most likely based on immaterial ideas, than any electro-chemical event. I challenge you to give a strictly material explanation for your change. If you can't, your worldview is bankrupt and useless.bb_{September 19, 2016
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#21, HeKS, that was excellently stated. You seem to have analyzed the situation perfectly, and it explains why, for example, commenters like rv simply ignore solid arguments, or defend their positions against them, and instead continue completely unmoved, trotting out the same, tired, 'I'm so happy because I'm rational and have science on my side, while all you have is superstition and the enslavement of your mind." It is almost fascinating to the same degree it is frustrating. No evidence that he, or others as well, have even taken the time to figure out what the challenges to his worldview ARE.soundburger_{September 19, 2016
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john_a_designer @17
The atheistic world view is intellectually, morally and spiritually bankrupt. The honest ones realize this. It takes a very self-centered and cynical person (or someone in complete denial) to try to impose a world view like that on others. I think that is what is going on with the internet. It is not the intellectually honest atheists who is showing up here and other places. It’s the cynical and angry ones. In other words, we are not exactly getting the cream of the crop here; rather we are getting the dregs– people who are incapable of being honest with themselves or others.
While I'm sure this probably is true in some cases, I personally stand by my previous view stated in an earlier thread, which is that the majority of internet atheists are simply completely oblivious to the logical entailments of the atheistic materialist worldview. They are under the false impression that it allows one to rationally believe the world is essentially as it seems, and that humans are essentially what they seem, and that, in fact, theists and atheists can both have an essentially similar view of the reality outside their brains, but with atheists simply abstaining from also believing all of that additional God and immaterial minds twaddle because "there is no evidence for it" and atheism, as everyone knows, is the intellectual and rational viewpoint (insert eye-roll here). Based on the various discussions that have been taking place here recently (as well as others I've had elsewhere), it seems that when these internet atheists are actually introduced to the logical entailments of their worldview and shown that these entailments are not simply dreamed up by theists but are acknowledged even by academic atheists, it simply does not compute for them. They simply cannot accept that the worldview that they've been duped into believing went hand-in-hand with rationality and intellectualism and that made them feel part of the intellectually-elite minority utterly and necessarily denies the possibility of either rationality or intellect. It is, understandably, a hard pill to swallow, and so they simply refuse to swallow it. Instead they deny the entailments without any coherent counter-argument, and they falsely accuse theists of setting up strawmen (goodness knows why the academic atheists are setting up the very same strawmen), and they insist on the existence of realities for which their atheistic materialist worldview can provide no semblance of justification, asserting that these things just must be logically compatible with their atheism because, darn it, they believe both things at the same time, and who could argue with that logic?! At this point you might be asking yourself how my perspective differs from the one you stated, as it still involves atheists "who are incapable of being honest with themselves or others". I would say that the main difference is that I don't think they enter the discussion cynical and angry and with the premeditated intention of failing to be honest with themselves and others. Rather, I think that is simply what they are driven to once the realities of their position start coming into focus. They must kick and fight against them, because nobody wants to believe that the very foundation of their worldview, which they believe they have chosen rationally, devastatingly undermines rationality itself.HeKS_{September 19, 2016
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The cream of the crop: Alex Rosenberg.
Chapter 10 - YOU’VE GOT TO STOP TAKING YOURSELF SO SERIOUSLY
Who must stop taking himself so seriously? Rosenberg keeps talking as if there are persons who do stuff. As if thoughts are about stuff. As if we need to understand stuff. As if there is free will.
THE ILLUSION THAT THERE IS SOMEONE INSIDE that has thoughts about stuff is certainly as old as the illusion that there are thoughts about stuff. They almost certainly evolved together as a package deal. But if the physical facts fix all the facts, there can’t be a me or you inside our bodies with a special point of view. When it fixed the facts, physics ruled out the existence of selves, souls, persons, or nonphysical minds inhabiting our bodies. It’s easy to see how it ruled them out, much easier than it is to see the illusion of aboutness that fostered them. Seeing the illusion of self helps loosen the hold of the illusion of purpose, plan, and design. If there is no one to cook up and carry out plans, purposes, and designs, then they couldn’t be real, could they? As for free will, it’s also hard to see its point without a self to have free will.
Ok, no persons and no free will … So? What do you want us to do Rosenberg?
THE LAST FOUR CHAPTERS have given us a lot to think about. Perhaps too much to swallow?
Well no, at least not according to your beloved materialism, because thoughts are not about anything and there is no one in existence to swallow anything. "A lot to think ABOUT" ??? What??
Conscious introspection is wrong about the very things it is supposed to know best. … The meanings we think are carried by our thoughts, our words, and our actions are just sand castles we build in the air. The same goes for the plans, designs, hopes, fears, and expectations by which we delude ourselves into thinking we organize our lives. The last step, denying the self and free will, that’s not even hard compared to the first three things scientism makes us take on board.
BTW Rosenberg forgets to mention two essential parts of the “last step”: — denying that one is rational. That cannot be so hard, given that one already accepts that thoughts have no meaning and that consciousness is an illusion. — denying that one is capable of doing science. Again, that cannot be so hard, since thoughts have no meaning and we cannot make and/or choose (scientific) plans.
How could we have gotten things so wrong?
That’s a stupid question Rosenberg. We didn’t get anything wrong or right. Thoughts are not about anything remember? Moreover, we don’t exist. Sheesh!Origenes_{September 19, 2016
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I only ask because it is an odd juxtaposition to claim that you are very balanced and satisfied in the atheist worldview and yet at the same time to fly off the handle at a relatively innocuous post. The claim and the action do not seem to match. Just an observation.ecs2_{September 19, 2016
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Does this man (or woman) protest to much? rvb8 - what in particular is so offensive about the original post here. It is flippantly sarcastic but in more of an observational way vs discourteous or insulting.ecs2_{September 19, 2016
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Dr JDD to rvb8:
I really am left asking the question: if you are so happy and fulfilled and convinced of your decision to reject theism and embrace materialism/atheism as “truth”, what are you still doing here?
I have tried many times on many different occasions to put myself in the shoes of the atheist interlocutors who frequent this any other sites. I must confess that I am baffled. If I were an honest atheist the last thing I would want to do is argue for an atheistic world view. Why? Because atheism has nothing to offer to anyone else. The atheistic world view is intellectually, morally and spiritually bankrupt. The honest ones realize this. It takes a very self-centered and cynical person (or someone in complete denial) to try to impose a world view like that on others. I think that is what is going on with the internet. It is not the intellectually honest atheists who is showing up here and other places. It’s the cynical and angry ones. In other words, we are not exactly getting the cream of the crop here; rather we are getting the dregs-- people who are incapable of being honest with themselves or others.john_a_designer_{September 19, 2016
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@rvb8 Seriously? You quote something from rvb8's mind to a theist? The apparent result of a random coincidence of molecules producing thoughts that lead to typing words on a computer screen? Try to get out of your misperception that anything you say has meaning or logic and that you can even speak any truth as you are the random result of random collision of molecules and random chemistry producing random thoughts that have not been evolutionarily selected for truth. What is truth? The theist is just a theist. Most are just as "lost" as atheists. A lot of theists quote religious texts or make their own apparent "profound" statements. But what is truth? Until you remove your mind from the idea that there is no truth (this is where materialism ultimately always will lead us), you cannot begin to even assess why one religious text may hold truth and another may not. Querius does well to quote the Bible to you as anyone would. It has the greatest evidence of any text in the world of being real truth. What would you rather have spoken to you? Opinion or truth? You also misunderstand much of the Bible. The Bible does not say that the vast universe was created just for man. The primary purpose of the vastness of the universe, which is what you have entirely missed, is not for us to stare at it, but that it displays the unknown and vast glorious qualities and nature of the Creator. We can have a discussion about the implications of that, but this is the primary purpose. "When I look at the heavens, the works of your fingers, what is man, that you are mindful of him?" And here is the irony of it all. So many "Christians" want to limit God and even subscribe to the vastness of the universe and everything in it as an accident with the implication that God has so little control over any of it. Those who do that rob the Creator of glory due to Him. No one will stand before the Creator and say "Its not my fault, those "Christians" put me off, there were too many differing accounts, there were too many who mocked me, who didn't show me love." I don't subscribe to the idea that those who reject God cannot be happy. Of course they can. But they will never know true joy - that is very different. Jesus Himself was a "man of sorrows and acquainted with grief." But, "for the joy set before Him endured the cross of shame and suffering." The Bible (the ONLY thing I can be sure of as truth, as God's Word) is quite clear that man can sear his conscience with repetitive rejection of truth. God's common grace of the goodness of life means you can sear your conscience and enjoy the pleasures of life and have a sense of happiness and fulfillment - just in ignorance. What is 70 or 80 years of happiness in this life to an eternity of despair and desperate unhappiness like you have never experienced before? "There will soon come a time when you seek Me but you will not find me." But I really am left asking the question: if you are so happy and fulfilled and convinced of your decision to reject theism and embrace materialism/atheism as "truth", what are you still doing here?Dr JDD_{September 19, 2016
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It seems to me to often be the case that self-described atheistic materialists here cannot understand the difference between what is argued would be the cause about everyone if atheistic materialism is true, and assertions about them and what they think and how they act. In my post "Miserable Creatures", I'm not making a case that atheistic materialists are miserable creatures; my argument is that if we actually lived in such a world, we'd all be miserable creatures - miserable in the Merriam-Webster 2nd definition sense: "wretchedly inadequate or meager." And indeed, how wretchedly inadequate and meager we would be in comparison to the divine purpose and self-determining authority we would have in a theistic universe. Under atheistic materialism, we (as individuals) would be phantom projections tossed about by insensate chemical forces doomed to imagine and experience things we cannot do anything about, in effect experiencing a material delusion of self-ness, free will and responsibility but being nothing more than biological, programmed automatons. I don't know how you get any more "wretchedly inadequate and meager" than being nothing more than an illusion living in a delusion.William J Murray_{September 19, 2016
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Rvb8: “The way you insult, and then you and your supporters deplore slurs from atheists is quite remarkable.” Indeed, as WJM has just pointed out, how is it possible to insult a heartless, soulless bag-of-chemicals? I don’t engage these “people” anymore because they don’t give me any true reason to change my mind. To do so they would need to begin by demonstrating that they have a basis for truth and reason. I don’t not see how any atheistic world view (materialism, physicalism, naturalism) can or could provide a sufficient basis for truth and reason. In other words, to convince me or anyone that their world view is true the atheist has to establish an epistemological basis for truth itself. This they consistently fail to do. It appears to me that atheist interlocutors like Rvb8 have failed to come to terms with the implications of their atheistic beliefs. If they had they wouldn’t be here trying to engage others with their inane, empty and ultimately meaningless arguments.john_a_designer_{September 19, 2016
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rvb8 @1
"This taunt, that we are miserable without God is silly, as most atheists have the ability to laugh at anything, including religion, and I regularly do. “Life of Brian” Heh:)
RVB, first of all, you didn't even address the OP and secondly, no one ever said that all atheists are miserable without God. I do believe there are some atheists who are miserable because they are running from God, but that is certainly not true of all atheists. So, I'm not sure why you bring this up unless you are just seeking to deflect the conversation from the point of the OP, which is actually quite powerful I thought.
I think that the thought of a group of people in the world living very happily indeed, without God upsets the faithful, I know it upsets Muslims who seek out and kill such transgressors. You know, like we used to do in the West, before we grew up.
It's easy to sit back and imagine why Muslims blow up Christians, Jews, and secularists, but it is simply your own opinion. Personally, I disagree with you as to why they do it. There are specific reasons given in the Koran for why they should do it and it has nothing to do with what you say. But you are free to believe whatever you want.
You say I will burn in hell? Well, the thought of spending eternity listening to Jack Chick, Ann Coulter, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Ken Ham, etc etc, is my idea of what hell would look like. The atheist view is far more desirable, and true."
Of course the atheist view is far more desirable - it allows us to live our lives however we want. We can run our own lives and do not have to worship or serve anyone. If I want to do something, I can do it. If I don't want to do something, I don't have to do it. There is no right and wrong so I am totally free. From the atheist perspective, this is more desirable than submitting to God, denying ourselves, and making Him, not us, number one in our lives. The atheist view is TRUE? Well, we'll have to disagree on that one, but we get it - that's what you believe. So perhaps you could answer the OP this time from your personal experience: How has your conversion to atheism made you a more loving, forgiving, and honest person? How has it impacted your finances and how you spend your money - outside of no longer giving to the Church? Has it motivated you to instead give to humanitarian projects to help others? How has it impacted how you use your time or how you look at other people? Tell us how atheism has made you into a better person and tell us what behavioral changes have taken place as a result? Can you give us an example of how converting to atheism has helped any criminal, drug addict, or alcoholic reform and change his life? There are countless examples of how believing in Jesus has radically changed the lives of people. But I just never hear those stories from atheists. They may exist. I just have never heard any.tjguy_{September 19, 2016
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rvb8 just can't help himself:
Not the manufactured awe of the Church, but real awe in the indescribable hugeness of the universe, and the incredible wastefulness of any God that could create such vastness, for such as we.
Under rvb8's ideological worldview, all sensations of "awe", as well as all beliefs, are generated by exactly the same thing; blind, purposeless, mindless chemical interactions. Yet here he is, claiming that some chemical effects are more "real" than other chemical effects. rvb8, you worry and complain about insults or other comments as if there was something we could have done to prevent our physico-chemical states from producing whatever they happen to produce as our beliefs and thoughts. I mean, how are we supposed to change our behaviors? Surely you're not suggesting we have any top-down oversight and control over our physical states? Are you ever going to actually act and write as if materialism is true?William J Murray_{September 19, 2016
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rvb8 at #8
BTW, your slur against Catholicism as something that, ‘isn’t authentic Christianity’, just makes me realise how right I was to reject the story. Please feel free to tell me why your Christianity is better than any other Christianity; be careful with that shovel however, the hole is already pretty deep.
I didn't make the slur you referred to, but I would like to tell you why "my Christianity" is better than any other Christianity or religion. I too was raised Catholic. But Catholicism is a religion, among many, many, many religions. Where as "my Christianity" is a relationship. It's a relationship with the one who informed who so ever would read the Bible and believe that it was He who created that vast universe you are so awestruck by. He thought little of its wastefulness because He is a profligate creator. Just as He thought little of the shame of dying on a cross by the hands of His own creation, just so that He could save who so ever would believe that God raised Him from the dead. To those outside that relationship, it all sounds so far fetched and improbable. But it's real to those who are experiencing that relationship. And even to outsiders, it's much more believable than the stories atheists tell concerning the origins of all that we sense and measure -- including the origins of truth, beauty and goodness. Hell will be the absence of those sensations. This world will be as close as they get to experiencing what is good. It's the goodness of God that brings repentance -- but many refuse the offer.awstar_{September 19, 2016
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RVB8, I have personally known and had to deal with (and know and deal with) many atheists and agnostics, as well as many who formerly advocated these schemes of thought. I can safely say on the strength of that, that the notion of the wonderfully happy utterly good, can- freely- trust- to- watch- your- six, champion of the free man thinking freely, intellectually fulfilled, atheistical bright new man, vanguard of the secular-scientific paradise ahead myth is just that, a myth of contemporary atheism. You will notice that, for cause, I have pointed to the incoherence of evolutionary materialistic scientism, its resulting necessary self-falsification, the utter want of a basis for responsible rational freedom (thus the self and the mind), resulting irrationality and amorality, as well as destructive impacts on the individual, family, community and civilisation. In recent weeks you and others of your ilk have underscored this well-known, longstanding pattern . . . Plato noted on it in The Laws Bk X 2350+ years ago . . . by how you have participated in thread after thread. So, while I do not particularly like sharp exchanges of words, I think it is advisable for you and for others of like atheistical ilk to seriously reconsider your views. Starting with worldviews and world roots. KFkairosfocus_{September 19, 2016
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rvb8, You have missed the point of the post. None of your comments address that point, much less refute it. You're a smart guy. Try harder.Barry Arrington_{September 19, 2016
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I'm sorry groov. Are you actually suggesting that atheist nightmares are worse than religious people's nightmares? They're not! I should know I've been an atheist for thirty one years now, and apart from the usual swathe of 'falling' dreams, and dreams of being pursued and being too slow to escape, my nightmares are non-existant. However a person as fixated on spiritualism (I looked up the ‘Integral Institute'; No thanks, 'holons' and 'quadrants'? One crack-pottery at a time please.), as you are probably think the spirit is talking to us, it is not. The 'research' done there involvess spirits and the soul, as in, "The living totality of matter, body, mind,soul, and spirit." Bloody hell, and you wonder why science doesn't take you seriously?rvb8_{September 19, 2016
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As a follow-up to my last post, I think it is only fair for me to highlight all of the Christian gangbangers who renounced their faith in Christ, converted to materialist atheism, and turned from a life of hate and violence to a life of love, mercy and sacrifice for their families.
This is actually a very very good point. You have a lot of examples of people converting to Christianity and turning from a life of sin and become better people. But I've never really heard of a Christian who was living a life of sin who through converting to atheism became a better person. I do know a number of Christians - kids of my friends - who turned their backs on their parents and their faith and messed up their lives. They are still nice kids, but their speech is littered with profanities and they have changed for the worse! IMHO Atheism has no power to change people, set them free from sin, and make them into a new and better human being.tjguy_{September 19, 2016
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rv writes, "get out of your tiny hermetically sealed insular world and go to NASA to see pictures of the heavens that really do make my spine tingle and fill me with real awe." This is the typical fallacy of the materialist, trotted out again and again; that the universe is, because of its vastness ( I guess ), 'awesome'. This is nonsense. If the standard materialist line of thinking is that the universe existed for sixteen billion years, perhaps, before it was even able to be contemplated by one species on one tiny planet, then there is nothing 'awesome' about it whatsoever. It just is. Dead, unconscious, utterly unaware of itself until humans came along. It is doubtful that rv imagines that whales, spending most of their lives underwater, have ever had a chance to take a good look at the stars and think, 'my how awesome!' Thus, for all rv knows, only humans have ever had that thought. What he finds awesome is nothing more than his own train of thought about the universe, not the universe itself. And that kind of awe is no less 'manufactured' (by, among other things, Carl Sagan books and NASA colorized photographs) than a religionist's awe.soundburger_{September 19, 2016
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The bible can be relevant to anyone, atheist or christian or otherwise. Never assume Christians or anyone for that matter are not in awe of the wonder in our universe. If anything one could imagine a greater awe at the possibility it was all created. Is it wastefull if it had that effect on you? I am glad it does by the way. I too love that about being alive and able to witness these things and wonder. "That is your, and your co-religionist’s view, that we are so amazing that God created a gazillion light years of nothing so that we could stare at it." I doubt that is anyone's view? Is it not that God is so amazing rather than the humans? Anyway I appreciate all the dialogue in here from both atheist and theist alike as long as it is civil. Bbw_{September 19, 2016
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rvb8: This taunt, that we are miserable without God is silly, as most atheists have the ability to laugh at anything, including religion, and I regularly do. “Life of Brian” Heh:) You can pump yourself up all you want about how happy and together you are and that's fine. But you know what? Atheists have nightmares. And they have no clue as to where the bad dreams come from. And I'm not going to say theists and especially fundamentalist ones do not have their own nightmares, but I can say this: materialists have a further way to go to understand why they experience nightmares. You want to know why? (probably not) But I'll say it anyway. Deep experiential work on oneself for years orients the individual to self understanding that naturally leads to a dualist outlook. Why can I confidently say this? There is a revolution in psychotherapy going on right now, involving millions of people and the U.S. Federal government which is licensing a Schedule 1 substance, psilocybin, for use in psychotherapy. If you are at all a curious person you would look into this, at the very least to refute what I'm saying. The movement is somewhat centered on The Integral Institute in California, which is the training center for psychiatrists for this approach to mental health, and they are receiving an average of 8 requests per day from interested persons in psychiatry. If you had studied the wider field of non-ordinary states of consciousness and their relationship to mental health, you would know that there are no materialists among the millions of people who are active in this approach to human evolution. Materialism is just a mental state like all others, created and maintained by the individual ego structure, and is temporary. Look at it this way. How can holding onto a belief in your complete and final obliteration be a source of your happiness? It cannot. Living as an atheist for two separate periods of my life gives me some cred here. I know what it is like to be a pleasure-seeking atheist, with an affinity for smoking dope. I remember being in what I thought was a pleasurable state, and then my belief in my ultimate oblivion would come crashing onto me at the most unwelcoming moments. A propensity for self examination eventually led me out of my last venture into materialism and you have no choice in the matter in the end yourself.groovamos_{September 18, 2016
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Q, your deep soul searching questions, and profoundly given head nodding wisdom, come across as patronizing twaddle. Seriously? You quote the Bible to an atheist? Try this; get out of your tiny hermetically sealed insular world and go to NASA to see pictures of the heavens that really do make my spine tingle and fill me with real awe. Not the manufactured awe of the Church, but real awe in the indescribable hugeness of the universe, and the incredible wastefulness of any God that could create such vastness, for such as we. That is your, and your co-religionist's view, that we are so amazing that God created a gazillion light years of nothing so that we could stare at it. BTW, your slur against Catholicism as something that, 'isn't authentic Christianity', just makes me realise how right I was to reject the story. Please feel free to tell me why your Christianity is better than any other Christianity; be careful with that shovel however, the hole is already pretty deep.rvb8_{September 18, 2016
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rvb8, Today, a good friend of mine stopped by with his fiancee. What a delight to see him! After asking Jesus into his heart and life during his 19 years in prison, he's a completely changed man. He received mentoring, finished parole, and has held a steady job for two years now. I trust him completely. No, Christians don't behead people or blow up malls as you might be implying in your message. Here's how Jesus warned us:
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? - Matthew 7:15,16
In his letter to the church in Galatia, here's how Paul describes it:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. - Galatians 5:22,23
Do you have anything against these listed manifestations of God's love poured out in authentic followers of Jesus Christ? Is it possible that you've been mislead to reject something that isn't authentic Christianity but the behavior of wolves among the sheep? Wouldn't it be ironic if the very people you listed turned up in hell with you. Now THAT really should scare you! You might want to think about it. -QQuerius_{September 18, 2016
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The way you insult, and then you and your supporters deplore slurs from atheists is quite remarkable. I'm an atheist, I changed gradually from Catholic to agnostic, to the next logical position. With posts like this I may make the step to anti-theist, but I'm not quite there yet; it's an evolution. This taunt, that we are miserable without God is silly, as most atheists have the ability to laugh at anything, including religion, and I regularly do. "Life of Brian" Heh:) I think that the thought of a group of people in the world living very happily indeed, without God upsets the faithful, I know it upsets Muslims who seek out and kill such transgressors. You know, like we used to do in the West, before we grew up. You say I will burn in hell? Well, the thought of spending eternity listening to Jack Chick, Ann Coulter, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Ken Ham, etc etc, is my idea of what hell would look like. The atheist view is far more desirable, and true.rvb8_{September 18, 2016
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