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In time for American Thanksgiving: Stephen Meyer on “the frailty of scientific atheism”

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Steve Meyer, author of The Return of the God Hypothesis, observes in a pdocast with Wesley Smith, “you rarely hear people refer to a ‘consensus’ in science when there actually is one.”

What’s needed, he says, and what is increasingly under siege in our culture, is the idea of “science as an open form of inquiry,” where “science advances as scientists argue about how to interpret the evidence.” Meyer would like to see more scientific debate, across the board, from climate change to Darwinian evolution to “many issues that have arisen in response to the Covid epidemic.” I couldn’t agree more. I want to offer a thought about something that underlies the impulse to clamp down on debate, and it relates to Thanksgiving.

At the end of the podcast they touch on the fragility, the brittleness of the materialist picture of reality. Materialism is as oppressive as it is because it can’t afford one slip-up, not one exception to the iron rule that nothing exists beyond nature. Wesley cites a fascinating interview with two well known “proud atheists,” Harvard cognitive psychologist Steven Pinker and his wife, the philosopher Rebecca Goldstein. She wrote a particularly good book that I read when it came out, Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity. Both are committed to Spinoza-style rationalism. In the interview with Salon, Pinker and Goldstein make clear how fragile their atheism is…

David Klinghoffer, “Thanksgiving and the Frailty of Scientific Atheism” at Evolution News and Science Today

Wesley Smith’s got a point. As a totalistic philosophy, “scientific atheism” (materialism) can be confuted by a single contrary example. Other philosophies are more robust. For example, one shyster evangelist doesn’t prove that all religion is wrong.

Anyway, materialist atheism is — you read it here first — slowly being destroyed by panpsychism. Panpsychism (everything is conscious) makes more sense. Here’s why:

Recall Egnor’s Principle: If your hypothesis is that even electrons are conscious, your hypothesis is likely wrong. But if your hypothesis is that the human mind is an illusion, then… you don’t have a hypothesis. That’s slowly killing “scientific” atheism.

You may also wish to read: A Darwinian biologist resists learning to live with panpsychism. Jerry Coyne makes two things quite clear: He scorns panpsychism and he doesn’t understand why some scientists accept it. The differences between panpsychism and naturalism are subtle but critical. As panpsychism’s popularity grows, insight will be better than rage and ridicule.

Comments
Thanks Ram for adding more detail on the actual 'power/energy' involved.. For me personally, the most important thing to realize is that the image formation on the Shroud was a quantum affair, not a classical affair. That is what, (to borrow Einstein's word for quantum mechanics), makes it so 'spooky'.bornagain77
December 4, 2021
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BA77: If fact, as to how much actual power and/or energy it took, it could have been zero power/energy as far as I know Fair enough although the 34 thousand billion watt result on the Shroud of Turin, (which you termed ‘just a bunch of B.S.”), suggests that a finite, but non-negligible, amount of power/energy was involved in Christ’s resurrection from the dead. "Just a bunch of B.S." was cranky and unhelpful. I apologize. From their slides: 17 joules energy/0.00000001 seconds results in 1.7 billion watt. It is called “peak power” which is different of the commonly used “average power”. Multiply 1.7 billion by 20,000 and you get "34 thousand billion watt." This is wildly misleading. A joule is is a measurement of power, equivalent to one ampere of electric current passing through one ohm of resistence for one second. They claim that they applied 17 joules to a square centimeter of cloth in 0.00000001 seconds. But watts by definition is a measurement of joules per second, and always per second. To get a clearer idea what this really means, 17 joules spread out over a second, which is how power is typically measured, is a mere 17 watts. According to them the Shroud image would have required 20,000 * 17 joules, or the equivalent of 300,000 watts of power. Not small. But not earth shattering. It's like running a hair dryer for 8 days or so. What may be impressive is that it was compressed into 0.00000001 seconds, if indeed it was. But nobody knows how the power was applied to the Shroud. At any rate, "34 thousand billion watts" were not involved. Why did they say this? Because if the power was 17 joules every 0.00000001 seconds for a full second, then yes, that would be 1.7 billion watts. But that's not what they did. The "watts" metric is unnecessary and misleading. --Ramram
December 4, 2021
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You might want to double check your logic here: "every possible being, whether you call any of them “God” or not, necessarily exist." i.e. Aquinas just rolled over in his grave.
NEUROSURGEON’S TEN PROOFS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. – Sept. 2021 Excerpt: (Michael Egnor):The Third Way is the argument that in order for anything to exist contingently — that is, it might not exist, but it does exist — there must be one thing that necessarily exists. For example, I might not exist. I might die, or I might never have been born. Everything can’t be contingent, everything can’t depend on everything else, because then you get circular reasoning. So there must be a necessary existence for anything contingent to exist. [00:11:00] https://mindmatters.ai/2021/09/2-a-neurosurgeons-ten-proofs-for-the-existence-of-god/ Thomas Joseph White #7: The Third Way (I, 2, 3) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZlofN2195s
bornagain77
December 4, 2021
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BA77 said:
Aquinas just rolled over in his grave.
The thing that necessarily exists, as I've said repeatedly, is the ground of existence itself.William J Murray
December 4, 2021
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^^^^ Aquinas just rolled over in his grave.
NEUROSURGEON’S TEN PROOFS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. - Sept. 2021 Excerpt: (Michael Egnor):The Third Way is the argument that in order for anything to exist contingently — that is, it might not exist, but it does exist — there must be one thing that necessarily exists. For example, I might not exist. I might die, or I might never have been born. Everything can’t be contingent, everything can’t depend on everything else, because then you get circular reasoning. So there must be a necessary existence for anything contingent to exist. [00:11:00] https://mindmatters.ai/2021/09/2-a-neurosurgeons-ten-proofs-for-the-existence-of-god/ Thomas Joseph White #7: The Third Way (I, 2, 3) - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZlofN2195s
bornagain77
December 4, 2021
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Zweston said:
In fact, without multiple persons existing as God before, you can’t really have love or humor…so the argument goes here:
This is exactly the same basic argument I made God as ground of being cannot have self-awareness, personality, deliberacy, etc. It's logically unavailable to such a being. Any sentient individual personality requires some way of existing as something other than the "ground of being." It must be a local psychology that exists within the ground of being but is not, psychologically speaking, the ground of being. But the thing is, the ground of being has no sense of time, order and space. There are ramifications to that; it cannot "create" anything because it is the ground by which any local psychological individual can experience "creating." The inescapable consequence of there being a ground of existence as all potential is that every possible being, whether you call any of them "God" or not, necessarily exist. There's no way for them not to exist. Every possible life and afterlife and experience necessarily exists. No "God" can choose just one to exist because no being can wipe potential out of existence. It can't be done.William J Murray
December 4, 2021
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Querius said:
So, what does “the Christian God” (what’s that?) reveal about His existence? The Hebrew prophets, through whom God chose to reveal himself, had them write the following (my emphasis added):
Those are assertions. If I meet a talking, flying tiger and the tiger (or its followers) make assertions that it is God, there's no rational reason for me to accept those assertions just because a talking, flying tiger is a miracle.
As to the “existence” of other gods, this is simply human speculation or, to be generous, the product of collections of admired attributes as in the case of Athena or Ares.
We have the testimony and information from several sources, including NDEs, that other such entities exist, so no, it's not just speculation.
In addition, people who practice occult arts might also encounter hateful lying spirits, demons who pose as gods or goddesses, as did Lucifer who wanted to be like God and receive the worship of people deceived by him (I recently had a couple of conversations with one of these unhappy and deceived individuals who says she met and worships Lucifer).
Dismissing all evidence to the contrary as being the product of deception is circular and/or convenient reasoning.William J Murray
December 4, 2021
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F/N: Once God is good and wise and loving, God is personal as such are attributes of persons. It is not "Christianity's god" or the like phrases of distanciation and hinted at dismissal, it is God. The God seen at basic level in ethical theism. Thereafter there are debates as to who best understands God, to which the best answer is, he who rose from death with 500 witnesses, showing nonpareil power as sign of truth. KFkairosfocus
December 4, 2021
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Zwetson @ God is depicted in the bible as having human emotions, such as joy, love, anger, grief and a remarkable sensitivity about the (mis)use of his name. Yet when I suggest that, since (by his own testimony) there is but one like him, he must be experiencing loneliness, I am told that God is above such petty human emotions, because he is in fact 3 persons(?). Why is that?Origenes
December 4, 2021
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Of further note to Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity contradicting each other to the point of literally blowing the entire universe apart. At the 6:09 minute mark of the following video, Hugh Ross comments on the ‘disturbing implications’ that "dark energy” has given atheistic astrophysicists
Astrophysicist Hugh Ross - Incredible Astronomical Discoveries & Dark Energy - 2018 video https://youtu.be/c9J9r7mdB6Q?t=367
And here is the 'Disturbing Implications' paper from the atheistic astrophysicists, that Dr. Ross referenced in the preceding video, that was withdrawn because of mounting evidence for a Cosmological Constant (Dark Energy), that speaks of the ‘disturbing implications’ of the finely tuned expanding universe (1 in 10^120 cosmological constant). The implications were ‘disturbing/ for them precisely because, quote-unquote, it “would have required a miracle”.
Disturbing Implications of a Cosmological Constant - Dyson, Kleban, Susskind (each are self proclaimed atheists) - 2002 Excerpt: "Arranging the universe as we think it is arranged would have required a miracle.,,,"?“The question then is whether the origin of the universe can be a naturally occurring fluctuation, or must it be due to an external agent which starts the system out in a specific low entropy state?” page 19: “A unknown agent [external to time and space] intervened [in cosmic history] for reasons of its own.,,,” Page 21 "The only reasonable conclusion is that we don't live in a universe with a true cosmological constant". http://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/0208013.pdf
And here are the evidences which made Dyson, Kleban and Susskind ultimately pull their 'disturbing implications' paper from consideration,
Accumulating Evidence for Dark Energy and Supernatural Design - 2011 Excerpt: I (Hugh Ross) often refer to nine different lines of observational evidence that establish dark energy’s reality and dominance in my talks. These nine are: 1.radial velocities of type Ia supernovae; 2.WMAP of the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMBR); 3.ground-based measures of the CMBR; 4.Sloan Digital Sky Survey of galaxies and galaxy clusters; 5.Two-Degree Field Survey of galaxies; 6.gravitational lens measurements of distant galaxies and quasars; 7.distributions of radio galaxies; 8.galaxy velocity distributions; and 9.x-ray emissions from galaxy clusters. In the last several years, astronomers have added seven additional lines of observational evidence confirming the reality of the finely tuned cosmological constant, bringing the total to sixteen. These seven are: 10.Lyman-alpha forest measurements; 11.polarization measures of the cosmic microwave background radiation; 12.stellar ages; 13.cosmic inhomogeneities; 14.gamma-ray bursts; 15.evolution of galaxy clustering; and 16.galaxy cluster angular size measurements. https://reasons.org/explore/publications/tnrtb/read/tnrtb/2011/12/05/accumulating-evidence-for-dark-energy-and-supernatural-design
Dr. Hugh Ross also listed several Bible verses that ‘predicted’ God ’'Stretching out the Heavens’,
Bible References to God Stretching Out the Heavens http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Nave-html/Faithpathh/stretch.html
The following verse, since it makes an indirect reference to Jesus walking on water, is my favorite out of that group of verses:
Job 9:8? He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea.
bornagain77
December 4, 2021
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Thanks Zweston, and to add a few notes, In this following video, entitled “The Ontological Argument for the Triune God”, refines the Ontological argument for a maximally great Being into a proof that, because of the characteristic of ‘maximally great love’, God must exist in more than one person:??
The Ontological Argument for the Triune God - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQRtUfS17PE
i.e. without this distinction we are stuck with the logical contradiction of maximally great love being grounded in ones own self which is the antithesis of maximally great love. i.e. selfishness as opposed to selflessness And this argument is indeed a powerful argument for the Triune God of Christianity. In the following video, a former Muslim confesses that this form of the ontological argument for the Triune God, i.e. maximally great love, is a devastating argument against the Muslim, (and Judaism), conception of a unitarian God:
Abdu Murray AMP 2016 (16: 00 minute mark - former Muslim admitting that God must exist in more than one person because of the characteristic of maximally great love, i.e. the ontological argument for the Trinity) https://youtu.be/GGLM3CC5-EY?list=PLUwTeBAi_JFFxNDq-sp0_Soxlxnlv9YRG&t=948
Further notes:
The Trinity Explained - video playlist (InspiringPhilosophy) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gCv-FAjgps&list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TWpnOJV09MuEAwbbQNCS6Qf Nabeel Qureshi explaining the Trinity - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0JpwOSKRC0
Further note:
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” What does it mean when God said, “Let Us make man in Our image” (Genesis 1:26)?,,, The conviction of the early church fathers was that Elohim’s statement, “Let Us make man in Our image,” communicates a complex and unified expression of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity holds that God is One in three Persons: God the Father; God the Son, Jesus Christ our Savior; and God the Holy Spirit. Here in Genesis 1:26, the “Us” and “Our” indicate God the Father speaking in the fullness of His divine creative power to the Son and the Holy Spirit. A similar conversation among the Godhead is seen in Genesis 3:22: “And the LORD God said, ‘The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.’” Only humans are uniquely created in the image and likeness of God, distinguishing them from all other earthly beings. We were made like Him so that we could be in relationship with Him—the one and only triune God. https://biblehub.com/genesis/1-26.htm
bornagain77
December 4, 2021
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Zweston @35, Thanks and yes, I watched the video you recommended. It reminds me of 1 John 1:3,4
We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We write this to make our joy complete.
Concerning the perspective of God in the video, you might also consider the words of the Shema, the most important prayer in Judaism. The very last word is interesting and if you look it up in Hebrew, the word is a plural unity, echad, rather than the singular, yachid. Finally, let me say that I'm very cautious in drawing conclusions about the nature of God that's not explicitly revealed in the Bible. It's just too easy to get off track due to our limited intelligence and perspectives as I've tried to explain in previous posts. -QQuerius
December 3, 2021
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Origenes @133,
Origenes: It is my impression that under Christianity God is seen as a person. I see God as a person. You seem to have a problem with that and feel the need to resort to ridicule and sarcasm. Good luck with that. I couldn’t care less.
No, what I refuted by the reductio ad absurdum argument was your ascribing the human emotion of loneliness to God as you wrote in @124:
Origenes: Assuming that this is true, it is a very unfortunate state of affairs for God. The loneliness must be close to unbearable.
There was no ridicule or sarcasm in my statements, rather I identified my objection as anthropomorphism. The second definition was quoted of the term is
2. The ascription of human attributes to supernatural or divine beings; in theology, the conception or representation of God with human qualities and affections, or in a human shape.
-QQuerius
December 3, 2021
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If you guys haven't checked out "apologetics squared" on youtube, I think you'd find it fascinating and stimulating... WJM... God isn't lonely, because he's three in one... He is all sufficient. In fact, without multiple persons existing as God before, you can't really have love or humor...so the argument goes here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRj56bbIUvUzweston
December 3, 2021
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Ram, but while we are on the subject of power/energy, and in regards to General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, the following might interest you. it is not only that Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity have this unbridgeable infinite mathematical divide between them, it is also that, theoretically speaking, Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity contradict each other to the point of literally blowing the entire universe apart. As Gregory Chaitin states, “There are serious problems with the traditional view that the world is a space-time continuum. Quantum field theory and general relativity contradict each other. The notion of space-time breaks down at very small distances, because extremely massive quantum fluctuations (virtual particle/antiparticle pairs) should provoke black holes and space-time should be torn apart, which doesn’t actually happen.”
“There are serious problems with the traditional view that the world is a space-time continuum. Quantum field theory and general relativity contradict each other. The notion of space-time breaks down at very small distances, because extremely massive quantum fluctuations (virtual particle/antiparticle pairs) should provoke black holes and space-time should be torn apart, which doesn’t actually happen.” – Gregory J. Chaitin , Francisco A. Doria, and Newton C. a. Da Costa – Goedel’s Way: Exploits into an Undecidable World
Here are a few more references that drive this point about ‘tearing the universe apart’ further home,
“In order for quantum mechanics and relativity theory to be internally self-consistent [Seeking consistency between quantum mechanics and relativity theory is the major task theoretical physicists have been grappling with since quantum mechanics emerged], the physical vacuum has to contain 10^94 grams equivalent of energy per cubic centimeter. What that means is, if you take just a single hydrogen atom, which is one proton and one electron and all the rest of the atom is ‘empty space,’ if you take just that volume of empty space, … you find that you end up with a trillion times as much vacuum energy as all the electromagnetic energy in all the planets, all the stars, and all the cosmic dust in a sphere of radius 15 billion light-years.” To summarize, the subtle energy in the vacuum space of a single hydrogen atom is as great as all the electromagnetic energy found in everything within 15 billion light-years of our space-time cosmos.” ,,, Dr. William Tiller – Human Intention Cosmic coincidence spotted – Philip Ball – 2008 Excerpt: One interpretation of dark energy is that it results from the energy of empty space, called vacuum energy. The laws of quantum physics imply that empty space is not empty at all, but filled with particles popping in and out of existence. This particle ‘fizz’ should push objects apart, just as dark energy seems to require. But the theoretical value of this energy is immense — so huge that it should blow atoms apart, rather than just causing the Universe to accelerate. Physicists think that some unknown force nearly perfectly cancels out the vacuum energy, leaving only the amount seen as dark energy to push things apart. This cancellation is imperfect to an absurdly fine margin: the unknown ‘energy’ differs from the vacuum energy by just one part in 10^122. It seems incredible that any physical mechanism could be so finely poised as to reduce the vacuum energy to within a whisker of zero, but it seems to be so. http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080219/full/news.2008.610.html The 2 most dangerous numbers in the universe are threatening the end of physics – Jessica Orwig – Jan. 14, 2016 Excerpt: Dangerous No. 2: The strength of dark energy ,,, you should be able to sum up all the energy of empty space to get a value representing the strength of dark energy. And although theoretical physicists have done so, there’s one gigantic problem with their answer: “Dark energy should be 10^120 times stronger than the value we observe from astronomy,” Cliff said. “This is a number so mind-boggling huge that it’s impossible to get your head around … this number is bigger than any number in astronomy — it’s a thousand-trillion-trillion-trillion times bigger than the number of atoms in the universe. That’s a pretty bad prediction.” On the bright side, we’re lucky that dark energy is smaller than theorists predict. If it followed our theoretical models, then the repulsive force of dark energy would be so huge that it would literally rip our universe apart. The fundamental forces that bind atoms together would be powerless against it and nothing could ever form — galaxies, stars, planets, and life as we know it would not exist. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/two-most-dangerous-numbers-universe-194557366.html
And yet, despite the fact that both theories contradict each other to the point of literally blowing the universe apart, the fact remains that universe is not blowing itself apart and therefore, from a common sense point of view, something, or Someone, must be holding the universe together. For the Christian this theoretical finding from our very best theories in science, (i.e. that something, or Someone, very powerful must be ‘outside the universe’ that is holding this universe together), should not be all that surprising to find out. Christianity predicted that Christ is before all things, and in him all things hold together,,,
Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
bornagain77
December 3, 2021
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Querius, It is my impression that under Christianity God is seen as a person. I see God as a person. You seem to have a problem with that and feel the need to resort to ridicule and sarcasm. Good luck with that. I couldn't care less.Origenes
December 3, 2021
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Origenes @129,
For you information, nowhere did I say that God has a physical body and gets “super hungry and thirsty without anything to eat or drink.” You baselessly pretend that I did. Motte-and-bailey fallacy.
That's right. You didn't, and as I said in @128:
Historically, it’s called the reductio ad absurdum argument and was well known by the “very childish” Greek philosophers.
If you're not familiar with this type of argument, look it up online for other examples. God being lonely, or for that matter hungry, thirsty, or having trouble "seeing" in the dark are all anthropomorphisms.
anthropomorphism 1. Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena. 2. The ascription of human attributes to supernatural or divine beings; in theology, the conception or representation of God with human qualities and affections, or in a human shape. 3. The conception of animals, plants, or nature in general, by analogy with man: commonly implying an unscientific use of such analogy. - The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.
-QQuerius
December 3, 2021
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Well Ram, I can see what you are hung up now, I'm sorry for my poor word choice. I did not mean 'infinite power' as in 'infinite energy' as you are thinking, but instead I meant, and I thought I was clear about it, that it would take the 'infinite knowledge' of God to bridge the 'infinite mathematical divide' between general relativity and quantum mechanics. ,,, and that a finite, but powerful, being would not have the infinite knowledge necessary to bridge the 'actual infinity' that mathematically exists between the two theories. If fact, as to how much actual power and/or energy it took, it could have been zero power/energy as far as I know, although the 34 thousand billion watt result on the Shroud of Turin, (which you termed 'just a bunch of B.S."), suggests that a finite, but non-negligible, amount of power/energy was involved in Christ's resurrection from the dead.bornagain77
December 3, 2021
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BA77 @125 Presumedly God is not bound by any such limitation. He can rearrange matter at will without using energy within spacetime. Your citations regarding energy within spacetime are irrelevant.ram
December 3, 2021
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Querius, For you information, nowhere did I say that God has a physical body and gets "super hungry and thirsty without anything to eat or drink." You baselessly pretend that I did. Motte-and-bailey fallacy.Origenes
December 3, 2021
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Origenes @127, Historically, it's called the reductio ad absurdum argument and was well known by the "very childish" Greek philosophers. -QQuerius
December 3, 2021
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Querius @126 Please do better, you are being very childish. Motte-and-bailey fallacy.Origenes
December 3, 2021
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Origenes @124,
Assuming that this is true, it is a very unfortunate state of affairs for God. The loneliness must be close to unbearable.
Assuming that God is just like us humans, he would also get super hungry and thirsty without anything to eat or drink, and he created light so he could see in the darkness. In other words, I think it's reasonable to assume your characterization of God is way too small. -QQuerius
December 3, 2021
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Ram, I know you will probably call it "just a bunch of B.S.", (like you did the 34 thousand billion watt finding for the Shroud of Turin), but anyways, defeating death that is inherent in this universe, (i.e. specifically defeating the entropy associated with the space-time of general relativity)', is a bit trickier than just, as you put it, "rearrange the proteins in the body (etc) and reconnect the consciousness to the brain".
“Einstein’s equation predicts that, as the astronaut reaches the singularity (of the black-hole), the tidal forces grow infinitely strong, and their chaotic oscillations become infinitely rapid. The astronaut dies and the atoms which his body is made become infinitely and chaotically distorted and mixed-and then, at the moment when everything becomes infinite (the tidal strengths, the oscillation frequencies, the distortions, and the mixing), spacetime ceases to exist.” – Kip S. Thorne – “Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein’s Outrageous Legacy” pg. 476 Further notes: ,,,, there is a profound ‘entropic divide’ between special relativity and general relativity. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/surprise-surprise-the-aging-process-is-irreversible/#comment-733455
Quote and Verses:
"We have the sober scientific certainty that the heavens and earth shall ‘wax old as doth a garment’... Dark indeed would be the prospects of the human race if unilluminated by that light which reveals ‘new heavens and a new earth.’" Sir William Thomson, Lord Kelvin (1824 – 1907) – pioneer in many different fields, particularly electromagnetism and thermodynamics. Psalm 102:25-27 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will have no end. Romans 8:18-21 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
bornagain77
December 3, 2021
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“I am the Lord, and there is no other.”
Assuming that this is true, it is a very unfortunate state of affairs for God. The loneliness must be close to unbearable.Origenes
December 3, 2021
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William J Murray @116,
So, does the Christian God, as a very powerful being, exist? I’d say that’s close to a certainty. Is it the only such God? I’d say that’s just as certainly not the case.
So, what does "the Christian God" (what's that?) reveal about His existence? The Hebrew prophets, through whom God chose to reveal himself, had them write the following (my emphasis added):
Deuteronomy 32:17 They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded. Deuteronomy 32:39 “See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand." Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. Isaiah 45:18 For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the Lord, and there is no other.” Isaiah 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Isaiah 46:9 "Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me"
As to the "existence" of other gods, this is simply human speculation or, to be generous, the product of collections of admired attributes as in the case of Athena or Ares. In addition, people who practice occult arts might also encounter hateful lying spirits, demons who pose as gods or goddesses, as did Lucifer who wanted to be like God and receive the worship of people deceived by him (I recently had a couple of conversations with one of these unhappy and deceived individuals who says she met and worships Lucifer). Jesus warned us about false teachers and told us to look at the fruit in their lives, good or evil, to determine their true identity.
Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Don't be deceived. -QQuerius
December 3, 2021
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12:41 PM
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BA77: God would have the “infinite” power necessary to resurrect Jesus from the dead Why would that require "infinite power"? Or any power at all. Just rearrange the proteins in the body (etc) and reconnect the consciousness to the brain. How does this require infinite power? Even within the system, when sperm meets egg, a process begins that leads to a human body, without anything like infinite power. Something on the order of a couple hundred watts is necessary. But if God controls the system, God could just do it without any energy at all required from within the system. Just poof the structures into the desired form. --Ramram
December 3, 2021
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11:53 AM
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Seversky @113,
I’m sorry to disappoint you but I’m still here.
On the contrary, I’m absolutely delighted that you’ve returned for another thrashing—not for my ego’s sake (who cares), but for the sake of your own eternal soul!
I had hoped you had evidence for Jesus’s existence other than the usual suspects.
I’d actually spent several hours assembling the witnesses to Jesus from online manuscripts capturing the words and thoughts of people hostile to Jesus from that time period. You, on the other hand, simply dismissed this evidence as “the usual suspects,” providing zero justification, zero scholarly references, and zero manuscripts to the contrary. No, I wasn’t surprised or disappointed at your reaction, but I was delighted that Bornagain77 and others appreciated my work, which they’re free to use in any manner, saving them the time and energy in the future, as they have likewise done for me on other occasions! So, when you asked me to draw a 2” x 2” circle with a pencil on a flat sheet of paper, several additional delightful possibilities presented themselves. The first circle was drawn on a square piece of paper and the second on an equilateral triangular piece of paper, both being 2” x 2”. First, I considered the circle drawn on the square piece of paper, the “square circle.” I noticed that the pencil left a thin layer of graphite on the paper of non-zero thickness. I can weigh the paper on a microgram scale before and after applying the graphite to get an approximation of the weight of the graphite and, using my B&L binocular dissection microscope to measure the average width of the graphite deposited, I can calculate the 3D thickness of the graphite circle. Because I used a very precise mechanical pencil held vertically to the paper, the cross section of the soft graphite turned out to be square! Thus, the shape and volume of the circle that I drew is defined by its radius, its lineweight, and its thickness. The cross section of the toroidal shape you asked me to draw is square—a square circle! Next, I drew the second circle on the 2” x 2” triangular piece of paper holding my mechanical pencil at an angle and continuously rotating it as a drew the circle, which maintained more pressure at the acute angle of my mechanical pencil with the paper. Thus, the cross section of the toroidal shape on the triangular piece of paper was a right triangle—a triangular circle! Yes, I have even more solutions to square circles not necessarily involving paper and pencil. If I as a mere mortal can come up with these “square circles,” how much more so can the Creator with an infinite IQ produce? My point still stands . . .
All these prove that we should be extremely open and humble when considering God, and that we cannot reach God neither with a physical Tower of Babel nor any system of logic. God’s existence and presence can only be revealed to us either directly or by his creation.
-QQuerius
December 3, 2021
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@WJM Self-identification does neither explain nor impact conscious self-awareness (the “I”). I experience conscious self-awareness irrespective of what I consider myself to be or not to be. One can be a convinced solipsist and it won’t diminish or impact in any other way the experience of conscious self-awareness (the “I”). Conscious self-awareness, that is the experience of the “I”, comes from the "I" perceiving itself.Origenes
December 3, 2021
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seversky:
I have no problem with the possibility that there was an itinerant preacher of that name roaming around first-century Palestine with a small band of followers.
And yet the ONLY reason it is called the first century is because of His existence. Weird, eh?ET
December 3, 2021
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