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In time for American Thanksgiving: Stephen Meyer on “the frailty of scientific atheism”

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Steve Meyer, author of The Return of the God Hypothesis, observes in a pdocast with Wesley Smith, “you rarely hear people refer to a ‘consensus’ in science when there actually is one.”

What’s needed, he says, and what is increasingly under siege in our culture, is the idea of “science as an open form of inquiry,” where “science advances as scientists argue about how to interpret the evidence.” Meyer would like to see more scientific debate, across the board, from climate change to Darwinian evolution to “many issues that have arisen in response to the Covid epidemic.” I couldn’t agree more. I want to offer a thought about something that underlies the impulse to clamp down on debate, and it relates to Thanksgiving.

At the end of the podcast they touch on the fragility, the brittleness of the materialist picture of reality. Materialism is as oppressive as it is because it can’t afford one slip-up, not one exception to the iron rule that nothing exists beyond nature. Wesley cites a fascinating interview with two well known “proud atheists,” Harvard cognitive psychologist Steven Pinker and his wife, the philosopher Rebecca Goldstein. She wrote a particularly good book that I read when it came out, Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity. Both are committed to Spinoza-style rationalism. In the interview with Salon, Pinker and Goldstein make clear how fragile their atheism is…

David Klinghoffer, “Thanksgiving and the Frailty of Scientific Atheism” at Evolution News and Science Today

Wesley Smith’s got a point. As a totalistic philosophy, “scientific atheism” (materialism) can be confuted by a single contrary example. Other philosophies are more robust. For example, one shyster evangelist doesn’t prove that all religion is wrong.

Anyway, materialist atheism is — you read it here first — slowly being destroyed by panpsychism. Panpsychism (everything is conscious) makes more sense. Here’s why:

Recall Egnor’s Principle: If your hypothesis is that even electrons are conscious, your hypothesis is likely wrong. But if your hypothesis is that the human mind is an illusion, then… you don’t have a hypothesis. That’s slowly killing “scientific” atheism.

You may also wish to read: A Darwinian biologist resists learning to live with panpsychism. Jerry Coyne makes two things quite clear: He scorns panpsychism and he doesn’t understand why some scientists accept it. The differences between panpsychism and naturalism are subtle but critical. As panpsychism’s popularity grows, insight will be better than rage and ridicule.

Comments
WJM, "I’ve flatly stated that of course an infinite number of things exist outside of MY mind" So now you believe that an external, physical, world exists outside your, or my, mind? But,, but,,, you chastised me precisely for believing a external, physical, world can exist outside of my mind?
BA77: “Actually it is quite easy to imagine a world that exists outside of my mind.” “The assumption that reality depends on my, or any other human mind, (i.e. solipsism), is simply absurd.” I was clear to state that I can easily Imagine a world that is not dependent on MY, OR ANY OTHER HUMAN, MIND, for its existence. WJM: Where are you imagining that world, BA77? Where would you be experiencing that imagined world, BA77?
Oh well, whatever WJM, you seem very ambiguous and confused about exactly what your theory actually entails and what it does not entail. Moreover, your allusion to the 'foggy' concept of a 'universal mind', (which sounds suspiciously 'New Age" to me), instead of you appealing to the (infinite) Mind of God, certainly does not help clarify, and solidify, your Mental Theory on a more solid 'scientific' foundation in my book..
The Universal Mind and You JULIA ROMAN | AUG 18, 2019 https://bahaiteachings.org/the-universal-mind-and-you/
As to you not accepting Jesus resurrection from the dead as proof that Jesus was God incarnate, well I guess you will figure that out when you bow your knees to Jesus and confess that He is Lord.
Philippians 2:10-11 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
bornagain77
December 1, 2021
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BA77 said:
The ‘external, physical’,’ world is NOT dependent on MY MIND, NOR ANY OTHER HUMAN MIND, for its existence.
I've repeatedly stated in my discussions about this that I'm talking about "external of universal mind." This is why I don't say "your" mind or "my" mind. I've flatly stated that of course an infinite number of things exist outside of MY mind - meaning, the local arrangement of my psychological perspective and what I personally observe and experience. For example, here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-universal-mind-is-a-reasonable-idea-says-bernardo-kastrup/
As I have argued, when faced with certain existential and scientific facts, “universal mind” is the only reasonable idea. Everything else is speculation based on an assumption that can never be evidenced even in principle.
BA77 said:
I beg to differ,
"How could any being other than God possibly do this, or leave this evidence" is not a logical, evidential connection to God. The only rational answer would be: any being with the power to do that, or any being whose resurrection would leave that evidence, whether it had anything to do with God or not.William J Murray
December 1, 2021
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WJM doubles down on his bluff.
BA77: “Actually it is quite easy to imagine a world that exists outside of my mind.” “The assumption that reality depends on my, or any other human mind, (i.e. solipsism), is simply absurd.” I was clear to state that I can easily Imagine a world that is not dependent on MY, OR ANY OTHER HUMAN, MIND, for its existence. WJM: Where are you imagining that world, BA77? Where would you be experiencing that imagined world, BA77?
Once again, I call his bluff. WJM is (blatantly) confusing the fact that I can only imagine, via my mind, a world without me existing in it with the fact that the 'external, physical,' world is NOT dependent on my mind, nor on any other human mind, for its existence.
BA77" That I can imagine a world that exists outside of my mind is easy to demonstrate. As the solipsism joke that I referenced from Planting makes clear, ““We take good care of the Professor because when he goes we all go”, i.e. the Professor’s mind is gone and yet the reality that the professor existed in still persists despite the fact that Professor's mind is gone. Thus, clearly, I can easily imagine a reality that is not dependent on my, or on any other, human mind for its existence.
WJM, for someone who prides himself on his logical acumen, you seem to be having a very difficult time grasping this extremely simple point I am making. The 'external, physical',' world is NOT dependent on MY MIND, NOR ANY OTHER HUMAN MIND, for its existence. It is dependent on the (infinite) Mind of God for its continued existence. (whether I exist in this world or not!)
Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 29 October 2012 Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” http://www.quantumlah.org/highlight/121029_hidden_influences.php
Verse:
Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
And here is the full context of the preceding verse that links the 'fullness of God' to Jesus: Verse:
Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Supplemental note to WJM saying "there’s no way to logically, evidentially connect Jesus to God" I beg to differ,
Jesus Christ as the correct "Theory of Everything" - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpn2Vu8--eE
bornagain77
December 1, 2021
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Querius said:
1 + 1 = 3 can indeed be true in the world of chemical reactions. A single trans-dimensional object can indeed be be both a square and a circle. Certainly, if the manifestation of a 3D cylinder passing through a 2D plane can be a circle or a square (or other 2D geometric shapes), then our viewing a 4D tesseract passing through our 3D space can appear to us as changing its 3D shape (if its orientation is pointy side first) and a fixed radius 4D sphere passing through our 3D space would appear as a sphere that grows larger and then smaller as it passes through.
Wrong. You might as well be saying that you can add one drop of water to another drop of water and still have only one drop of water, or add one set of blocks to another set of blocks and still only have one set of blocks. 1+1=2 must be applied to the same relevant commodity the same way. You're switching perspectives, thus identifying two different relevant commodities - different perspectives. In the drop of water scenario, the relevant commodity is volume. In your scenario, the relevant commodity is the perspective of the circle on the plane at a point in time, OR the 3D cylinder. You don't get to switch perspectives and claim you are addressing the same relevant commodity. A square or a circle is identified as a two dimensional object. The two-dimensional object one experiences at a point in time cannot be both a square and a circle. It can be a combination of a square and a circle, like a circle drawn inside a square, but again, that's a different relevant commodity: it's a combination of the two things. The square is not a circle, and the circle is not a square.William J Murray
December 1, 2021
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Seversky, Maybe I missed it. Did you claim that Jesus never existed? If so, why? What difference does it make if Jesus existed or not? I don't see how it makes any difference if Jesus existed, or even if everything written about what Jesus did actually occurred; there's no way to logically, evidentially connect Jesus to God other than circular reasoning. It doesn't seem to me to be a hill worth defending.William J Murray
December 1, 2021
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BA77 said:
Yet, you made no such ‘qualification’ to the ‘universal’ Mind of God in your original statement. Were you being purposely ambiguous in your original statement, or has your theory now ‘evolved’ since you first wrote those words last year?
I was not ambiguous, I stated it directly and you quoted it.
Belief in any kind of extra-mental world is unsupportable, unwarranted, unnecessary, without even the potential for evidence, and thus entirely irrational. In effect, the “external, physical world” perspective can only ever be an irrational belief in an imaginary world – or perhaps more appropriately, a delusion.
I was unambiguously, directly talking about belief and world-view perspective.
WJM: “You cannot even imagine a world that exists outside of mind. No one can. It’s literally impossible.” BA77: “Actually it is quite easy to imagine a world that exists outside of my mind.” “The assumption that reality depends on my, or any other human mind, (i.e. solipsism), is simply absurd.” I was clear to state that I can easily Imagine a world that is not dependent on MY, OR ANY OTHER HUMAN, MIND, for its existence.
Where are you imagining that world, BA77? Where would you be experiencing that imagined world, BA77? You might as well be claiming that you can draw a square circle. It can't be done. You can say the words "I can draw a square circle." You can say the words, "I can imagine a world that exists independent of mind." But, neither can actually be accomplished.William J Murray
December 1, 2021
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Seversky, in spite of all contrary evidence presented to him by Querius, stubbornly clings to his delusion that Jesus did not even exist, i.e. was a 'mythical figure'. Yet even Richard Dawkins himself, (whom Seversky has held in high esteem), when confronted by John Lennox on his claim that Jesus did not even exist, was at least honest enough to backtrack and state, "I take that back. Jesus existed."
Richard Dawkins admits Jesus existed - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ant5HS01tBQ
Bart Ehrman himself, another hero for atheists/agnostics, stated that, "These views, (that Jesus did not exist), are so extreme and so unconvincing to 99.99 percent of the real experts that anyone holding them is as likely to get a teaching job in an established department of religion as a six-day creationist is likely to land on in a bona fide department of biology. Whether we like it or not, Jesus certainly existed.”
Did Jesus Exist? All Scholars Agree He “Certainly” Existed - Oct 2016 Excerpt: “This is not an issue for scholars. There is no scholar in any college or university who teaches classics, ancient history, new testament, early christianity, who doubts that Jesus existed. He is abundantly attested in early sources. Early and independent sources indicate that Jesus certainly existed. Paul is an eyewitness to both Jesus’ disciple Peter and the brother of Jesus. Like, I’m sorry. Atheists have done themselves a disservice by jumping on the bandwagon of mythicism because it makes you look foolish to the outside world.” - Bart Ehrman In an article he wrote for Huffington Post, Ehrman said: “There are a couple of exceptions: of the hundreds — thousands? — of mythicists, two (to my knowledge) actually have Ph.D. credentials in relevant fields of study. But even taking these into account, there is not a single mythicist who teaches New Testament or Early Christianity or even Classics at any accredited institution of higher learning in the Western world. And it is no wonder why. These views are so extreme and so unconvincing to 99.99 percent of the real experts that anyone holding them is as likely to get a teaching job in an established department of religion as a six-day creationist is likely to land on in a bona fide department of biology. Whether we like it or not, Jesus certainly existed.” https://reasonsforjesus.com/jesus-exist-scholars-agree-certainly-existed/
In the following video, Bart Ehrman tells an atheist, during a live broadcast, that 'no serious Bible historian doubts that Jesus existed':??
Bart Ehrman - Jesus Existed - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=WUQMJR2BP1w
Thus Seversky is apparently, in his personal hostility against Christianity, willing to believe something that ''no serious Bible historian doubts'. i.e. the fact that Jesus existed. It is very interesting to note that this microcosm of Seversky's very unreasonable bias against the very existence ofJesus encapsulates, in miniature, Seversky's very unreasonable bias against Intelligent Design in general. In other words, no matter how much one may walk through the, IMHO, ironclad logic, and evidence, for Intelligent Design, Seversky will still, against all reason, deny that the evidence for Intelligent Design even exists. Of related note to the very unreasonable bias that Seversky and other dogmatic atheists have, studies have now established that the design inference is ‘knee jerk’ inference that is built into everyone, (including atheists), and that atheists have to mentally work suppressing their “knee jerk” design inference!
Is Atheism a Delusion? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ii-bsrHB0o Richard Dawkins take heed: Even atheists instinctively believe in a creator says study - Mary Papenfuss - June 12, 2015 Excerpt: Three studies at Boston University found that even among atheists, the "knee jerk" reaction to natural phenomenon is the belief that they're purposefully designed by some intelligence, according to a report on the research in Cognition entitled the "Divided Mind of a disbeliever." The findings "suggest that there is a deeply rooted natural tendency to view nature as designed," writes a research team led by Elisa Järnefelt of Newman University. They also provide evidence that, in the researchers' words, "religious non-belief is cognitively effortful." Researchers attempted to plug into the automatic or "default" human brain by showing subjects images of natural landscapes and things made by human beings, then requiring lightning-fast responses to the question on whether "any being purposefully made the thing in the picture," notes Pacific-Standard. "Religious participants' baseline tendency to endorse nature as purposefully created was higher" than that of atheists, the study found. But non-religious participants "increasingly defaulted to understanding natural phenomena as purposefully made" when "they did not have time to censor their thinking," wrote the researchers. The results suggest that "the tendency to construe both living and non-living nature as intentionally made derives from automatic cognitive processes, not just practised explicit beliefs," the report concluded. The results were similar even among subjects from Finland, where atheism is not a controversial issue as it can be in the US. "Design-based intuitions run deep," the researchers conclude, "persisting even in those with no explicit religious commitment and, indeed, even among those with an active aversion to them." http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/richard-dawkins-take-heed-even-atheists-instinctively-believe-creator-says-study-1505712 Design Thinking Is Hardwired in the Human Brain. How Come? - October 17, 2012 Excerpt: "Even Professional Scientists Are Compelled to See Purpose in Nature, Psychologists Find." The article describes a test by Boston University's psychology department, in which researchers found that "despite years of scientific training, even professional chemists, geologists, and physicists from major universities such as Harvard, MIT, and Yale cannot escape a deep-seated belief that natural phenomena exist for a purpose" ,,, Most interesting, though, are the questions begged by this research. One is whether it is even possible to purge teleology from explanation. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/design_thinking065381.html
In other words, it is not that Atheists do not see purpose and/or Intelligent Design in nature and biology, it is that Atheists, for whatever severely misguided personal reason, live in denial of the purpose and/or Intelligent Design that they themselves are seeing in nature. Perhaps the two most famous quotes of leading atheists suppressing their 'knee jerk' design inference are the following two quotes:
“Yet the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker, impress us with the illusion of design and planning.” - Richard Dawkins – “The Blind Watchmaker” – 1986 – page 21 “Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved. It might be thought, therefore, that evolutionary arguments would play a large part in guiding biological research, but this is far from the case” - Francis Crick – What Mad Pursuit - 1988
Personally, I certainly would not like to be in the shoes of atheists, (who are apparently willingly 'suppressing the truth'), when they die. Verse:
Romans 1:18-20 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
bornagain77
December 1, 2021
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Seversky, You can find my synopsis of the overwhelming manuscript evidence for the existence of Jesus from the writing of ancient skeptics in my post @19. The historical Jesus is no longer challenged by qualified scholars, but I'm not suggesting that they necessarily believe that he was the prophesied Messiah or that he rose from the dead, just that he was NOT mythical or fictional. While I have no illusion that you will allow any evidence no matter how compelling to shake you from your belief that Jesus was mythical or fictional, I do find it necessary to contradict your outdated and unsupported assertions to that effect. There's a lot of other evidence available regarding Jesus, but I chose to limit the evidence I presented to what ancient skeptics wrote about Jesus. -QQuerius
November 30, 2021
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Querius/57
Isn’t it interesting that Seversky simply vanished after I destroyed his assertion that Jesus was mostly or entirely a myth?
C: Jesus is a mythical figure like, say, Robin Hood, possibly based distantly on a real person or persons but no more real than that. D: Jesus is an entirely fictional character invented as the personification of the faith’s core principles.
This stupid assertion keeps popping up with boring regularity and is shot down each time.
I'm still around but I seem to have missed the bit where you "destroyed" or "shot down" my stupid assertions.Seversky
November 30, 2021
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WJM, "The statement you quote is about belief in a world external of (universal) mind." Yet, you made no such 'qualification' to the 'universal' Mind of God in your original statement. Were you being purposely ambiguous in your original statement, or has your theory now 'evolved' since you first wrote those words last year? i.e. “the “external, physical world” perspective can only ever be an irrational belief in an imaginary world – or perhaps more appropriately, a delusion.” Moreover, I have my own 'personal experience' of debating you on the subject,,,
WJM: "You cannot even imagine a world that exists outside of mind. No one can. It’s literally impossible." BA77: "Actually it is quite easy to imagine a world that exists outside of my mind." "The assumption that reality depends on my, or any other human mind, (i.e. solipsism), is simply absurd." https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-problem-with-most-theological-doctrines-and-the-theological-argument-for-mental-reality/#comment-714762 BA77: Huh??? What in the world are you going on about??? Imagining a reality that exists outside my mind is certainly not a logical contradiction as you are trying to imply. Whereas claiming that reality is dependent on my, or any other, human mind clearly entails a large measure of solipsism. If you are merely claiming that reality would not exist for us personally if we were not first conscious of it, that is another claim entirely than what you are currently trying to claim. i.e. “You cannot even imagine a world that exists outside of mind. No one can. It’s literally impossible.” That I can imagine a world that exists outside of my mind is easy to demonstrate. As the joke that I referenced from Planting makes clear, ““We take good care of the professor because when he goes we all go”, the professor’s mind is gone and yet the reality that the professor existed in still persists. Thus, clearly, I can easily imagine a reality that is not dependent on my, or on any other, human mind for its existence. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-problem-with-most-theological-doctrines-and-the-theological-argument-for-mental-reality/#comment-714775 BA77: if you are going to try to argue against my points at least state my points correctly. I did not say that the “Professor “still exists” in an external world” as you are trying to claim but I instead stated that “the professor’s mind is gone and yet the reality that the professor existed in still persists.” And then I further clarified, “Thus, clearly, I can easily imagine a reality that is not dependent on my, or on any other, human mind for its existence.” And as I also further clarified, repeatedly now, that arguing that the ‘external’ reality we are perceiving is dependent on the Mind of God is an entirely different question than what you are currently trying to argue. i.e. “You cannot even imagine a world that exists outside of mind. No one can. It’s literally impossible.” I was clear to state that I can easily Imagine a world that is not dependent on MY, OR ANY OTHER HUMAN, MIND, for its existence. Now, of course, I hold that the external reality we are perceiving is ultimately dependent on the Mind of God for its existence. I even pointed out that George Berkley elucidated this line of logic, long before quantum mechanics came along, with ‘Idealism”. etc.. etc.. etc.. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-problem-with-most-theological-doctrines-and-the-theological-argument-for-mental-reality/#comment-714823
bornagain77
November 30, 2021
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Bornagain77 @75,
Gödel actually proved this theorem, not with respect to mathematics only, but for all systems which permit a formalization, that is a rigorous and exhaustive description, in terms of modern logic: For no such system can its freedom from inner contradictions be demonstrated with the means of the system itself.
Thanks for the additional quote from John von Neumann that demonstrates all logical systems (such as Seversky's) have inner contradictions! 1 + 1 = 3 can indeed be true in the world of chemical reactions. A single trans-dimensional object can indeed be be both a square and a circle. Certainly, if the manifestation of a 3D cylinder passing through a 2D plane can be a circle or a square (or other 2D geometric shapes), then our viewing a 4D tesseract passing through our 3D space can appear to us as changing its 3D shape (if its orientation is pointy side first) and a fixed radius 4D sphere passing through our 3D space would appear as a sphere that grows larger and then smaller as it passes through. All these prove that we should be extremely open and humble when considering God, and that we cannot reach God neither with a physical Tower of Babel nor any system of logic. God's existence and presence can only be revealed to us either directly or by his creation. -QQuerius
November 30, 2021
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BA77: The statement you quote is about belief in a world external of (universal) mind. I demonstrated how such a belief is irrational because one cannot gather evidence for such a world even in principle. That is not the same thing as claiming that "there is no world external of mind." The same inescapable inability to gather evidence for such a world also means you cannot prove it doesn't exist. Why would I assert that something (other than an instantiation of a logical contradiction) does not exist? Just because a belief is irrational, such as: "the burning bush speaking to me is God because it says so," doesn't mean the irrational belief isn't true. It may be that the being speaking as a burning bush is God, but there is no rational reason to believe it to true.William J Murray
November 30, 2021
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Querius said:
Yep. And this clearly demonstrates your a priori mental processing that excludes anything that challenges your thinking!
I also have a priori mental processing that excludes being talked into 1+1=3, A = not-A, and the idea that square circles exist. When you come up with a logical way for me being able to identify a being as God (other than as ground of existence,) let me know.William J Murray
November 30, 2021
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Q: of further note from John von Neumann :
The Gödelian Challenge - 2007 Excerpt: "Kurt Gödel’s achievement in modern logic is singular and monumental—indeed it is more than a monument, it is a landmark which will remain visible far in space and time." —John von Neumann Upon presenting Kurt Gödel (1906-1978) with the Albert Einstein Award in 1951, John von Neumann remarked, “Gödel was the first man to demonstrate that certain mathematical theorems can neither be proved nor disproved with the accepted, rigorous method of mathematics ... Gödel actually proved this theorem, not with respect to mathematics only, but for all systems which permit a formalization, that is a rigorous and exhaustive description, in terms of modern logic: For no such system can its freedom from inner contradictions be demonstrated with the means of the system itself.” https://www.ias.edu/ideas/2007/godelian-challenge
bornagain77
November 30, 2021
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William J Murray,
There is no way any being could talk to me, nothing that any being could do, that would convince it was God, because I have no rational way of reaching that conclusion.
Yep. And this clearly demonstrates your a priori mental processing that excludes anything that challenges your thinking! But you're actually right on this point: The fact that you cannot reach certain conclusions by your logic is actually supported in mathematics and logic. In 1931, mathematician, logician, and philosopher Kurt Gödel published his two incompleteness theorems that demonstrate not all truth can be derived from any single axiomatic system. According to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy . . .
Gödel’s two incompleteness theorems are among the most important results in modern logic, and have deep implications for various issues. They concern the limits of provability in formal axiomatic theories. The first incompleteness theorem states that in any consistent formal system F within which a certain amount of arithmetic can be carried out, there are statements of the language of F which can neither be proved nor disproved in F. According to the second incompleteness theorem, such a formal system cannot prove that the system itself is consistent (assuming it is indeed consistent). These results have had a great impact on the philosophy of mathematics and logic.
Here's a quote about Gödel's incompleteness theorems from John von Neumann, mathematician, physicist, computer scientist, engineer and polymath.
"Kurt Gödel's achievement in modern logic is singular and monumental—indeed it is more than a monument, it is a landmark which will remain visible far in space and time. . . The subject of logic has certainly completely changed its nature and possibilities with Gödel's achievement."
This astonishing discovery in mathematics and logic destroys your position. -QQuerius
November 30, 2021
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,,, "nowhere in what you quoted do I assert that under MRT, an external physical reality doesn’t (actually) exist." And yet per WJM, "the “external, physical world” perspective can only ever be an irrational belief in an imaginary world – or perhaps more appropriately, a delusion." Oh well, I guess, since only WJM's personal perspective really matters in his MRT, 'delusion' must mean something other than what 'external, physical' dictionaries define it as meaning.
delusion: 1. a belief that is not true : a false idea
bornagain77
November 30, 2021
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wBA77: Notice that nowhere in what you quoted do I assert that under MRT, an external physical reality doesn't exist.William J Murray
November 30, 2021
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WJM, "My MRT does not assert that “an external physical reality does not (actually) exist.”" REALLY?
Mental Reality Theory Vs External Reality Theory: Checkmate - August 4, 2020 - William J Murray Excerpt: 12. Thus, belief in an extra-mental reality is necessarily irrational because (1) it cannot be directly experienced, (2) no evidence can be gathered that can distinguish it from mental reality, and (3) no rational argument can be levied in support of it that does not innately rely upon that supposed “external world” being entirely consonant with, indeed subordinate to, the entirely mental nature of logical principles and processes. Belief in any kind of extra-mental world is unsupportable, unwarranted, unnecessary, without even the potential for evidence, and thus entirely irrational. In effect, the “external, physical world” perspective can only ever be an irrational belief in an imaginary world – or perhaps more appropriately, a delusion. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/mental-reality-theory-vs-external-reality-theory-checkmate/
bornagain77
November 30, 2021
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BA77, Your argument seems to me to be that if God can't prove to me that he is God, then if follows that, even if you and I met in person, you could not prove to me that you are BA77. Sure you could; you could tell me your name and address in a private message, then I could travel to your place of residence, knock on your door, you come out and introduce yourself, and I ask you for a form of photo ID. Sure, if it was an elaborate scam, I could erroneously think I had met BA77 from these forums, but I think after talking with you a while I could ascertain with a high degree of confidence whether or not the person I met was BA77 from this forum. But, if some being talks to me from a burning bush and does supernatural things, what frame of reference do I have for ascertaining, with a high degree of confidence, that the being I'm talking to is God? I have no frame of reference; I have no means of validating the identity of that being.William J Murray
November 30, 2021
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BA77 said:
WJM, you don’t seem to realize that ‘you’, (via your MRT which, IMHO, borders on solipsism), face the same standard/dilemma in convincing other people that you exist as you have placed on God to prove his existence to you.
No, that's not the issue at hand. I'm convinced God exists; God doesn't have to prove that to me because it's a logical necessity. Under my MRT, I'm convinced that other people exist, because - under my MRT - it's logically inescapable that other people exist. Which means, BTW, that "my" MRT does not "border on solipsism" because solipsism is logically incompatible with the premises of my MRT.
You say, via your MRT, that you unquestionalbly exist and that external physical reality does not actually exist.
"I exist" is unquestionable under any rationally coherent ontology. My MRT does not assert that "an external physical reality does not exist."
I say prove it to me. Nothing you could ever possibly say or do could ever convince me that ‘you’ actually exist and that a external physical reality does not actually exist, especially if, like you, I had a prior bias against accepting any of the ‘external’ evidence that you offered to me for your personal existence. I could just as well sit back and play the ‘philosophical zombie’ argument on you all day long if I so chose to do so.
Why on Earth would I try to prove it to you? What do I care if you believe I exist or not? What do I care if you believe MRT or not?William J Murray
November 30, 2021
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WJM, "I am impressed by that answer. That doesn’t mean the being that said it is God." WJM, you don't seem to realize that 'you', (via your MRT which, IMHO, borders on solipsism), face the same standard/dilemma in convincing other people that you exist as you have placed on God to prove his existence to you. You say, via your MRT, that you unquestionalbly exist and that external physical reality does not actually exist. I say prove it to me. Nothing you could ever possibly say or do could ever convince me that 'you' actually exist and that a external physical reality does not actually exist, especially if, like you, I had a prior bias against accepting any of the 'external' evidence that you offered to me for your personal existence. I could just as well sit back and play the 'philosophical zombie' argument on you all day long if I so chose to do so.bornagain77
November 30, 2021
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BA77 said:
WJM, (given his mental reality theory (MRT) where his first person experience is paramount, and, IMHO, borders on solipsism), should really be impressed with God’s “I am” answer right after the burning bush when Moses asked God what he should tell the people,
I am impressed by that answer. That doesn't mean the being that said it is God. I'm impressed by a lot of your answers, BA77. That doesn't mean I think you're God. Being impressive, being able to do supernatural things, doesn't mean that being is God. There's no way to evidence or reason your way to that conclusion as far as I can tell because it requires circular reasoning - assuming (1) God is capable of doing, and would do those things, and (2) assuming that only God is capable. There's no reason, as far as I can tell, to assume those things.William J Murray
November 30, 2021
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Querius said:
You’re missing the point. We’re ASSUMING that God exists and that he spoke to you in a way that convinced you that God spoke to you.
There is no way any being could talk to me, nothing that any being could do, that would convince it was God, because I have no rational way of reaching that conclusion.
ASSUMING that you’re convinced that God has spoken to you and had given you the mission, how would you go about fulfilling the mission?
Here's the problem with that question: any version of "me" that can be convinced that some being talking to me is God is not me, because nothing could convince of that, because I'm a rational person and there's no logical way for me to reach the conclusion that that being is, in fact, God. So if was ME, and some being did all that to try and convince me it was God, it would fail, and my response would be "Uhm, appreciate the offer, but no thanks. Find someone else." I can't tell you what I would do if I was convinced because whatever version of me that could be convinced would be entirely different from me. I don't know why you're asking me about this. I assume that the people who were convinced that God was talking to them went out and did whatever they would do to tell other people about it if that's what the believe God told them to do, or what they were supposed to do.William J Murray
November 30, 2021
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as to, "For what it’s worth, there were several instances in the Bible where people did actually question whether God (or an angel of God) was speaking to them," WJM, (given his mental reality theory (MRT) where his first person experience is paramount, and, IMHO, borders on solipsism), should really be impressed with God's "I am" answer right after the burning bush when Moses asked God what he should tell the people,
Exodus 3:13-14 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
Shoot, that "I am" reply from God is right down WJM's MRT alley as far as I can tell. :)
The Latin cogito, ergo sum,[a] usually translated into English as "I think, therefore I am",[b] is a philosophical statement that was made by René Descartes. - per wikipedia John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
bornagain77
November 29, 2021
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William J Murray, You're missing the point. We're ASSUMING that God exists and that he spoke to you in a way that convinced you that God spoke to you. However, the same dynamic would emerge if we ASSUME that God does not exist and that some weird hallucination, space alien, or college prankster had spoken to you. However, you have more tools available in the former case. ASSUMING that you're convinced that God has spoken to you and had given you the mission, how would you go about fulfilling the mission? For what it's worth, there were several instances in the Bible where people did actually question whether God (or an angel of God) was speaking to them, so you've already confirmed that case for me. Again, your mission is to convince people that God gave you a specific message about his love, and you have a number of natural and supernatural (whatever you can imagine) powers available to you, however coercion is not one of them (threats, bribery, blackmail, beatings, terror, etc.). Being convinced, what would you do to fulfil this mission? -QQuerius
November 29, 2021
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WJM, good points.Joe Schooner
November 29, 2021
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Querius said:
The answer to the reverse question is that since the avatar of William J Murray is able to do things unique to the person behind the avatar, it’s not illogical to conclude that the only begotten avatar of God could do things that only God can do.
The problem is that I don't know what the set of "things" are that "only God can do." I have absolutely no way of making that assessment. If an ant could think, it might think that I must be God. If I went back in time with modern weapons, medical supplies and an assortment of technology with the gear necessary to power it, and I told those people I was God because of all the things I could do AND because I knew the future, does that mean I'm God? If someone developed super-powers like Superman and claimed to be God, does that make that person God? Your evidential argument is circular. "Who else but God could have done that?" Is not a logical argument in light of the evidence we're accepting arguendo, because the answer is: anyone with the power to do those things could have done it. If you're going to premise one powerful, supernatural being, capable of doing those things, you've opened the door to include any number of powerful, supernatural beings. If you get to premise that God can do those things, then I can just as easily premise that a multitude of beings other than God can do those things, and there's no rational argument that can be made against that. So what we are left with is the question: how would I know any being claiming to be God is actually God?William J Murray
November 29, 2021
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Q@58 said:
Ok, let’s pretend that God appeared to you in a burning bush with a voice like thunder and commissioned you as his special messenger. Naturally, you’d doubt your sanity, but just for sake of your previous objections and your admission that you don’t know, let’s assume this experience was genuine and real.
How would I know it's God?William J Murray
November 29, 2021
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CD @ 59, I agree you have identified the "crux" of the matter. If those opposition testimonies believed in a resurrection, you'd write them off a biased because they'd be Christians. When Paul wrote that, it's because he put his whole life on that fact...despite having everything he could want as a member of the Pharisees/Sanhedrin. It cost him everything earthly. What is your evidence that he would do such a thing without gaining power, money, or sex? CD, if they were witnessing to any other type of event, you'd have no problem accepting it. Your disposition against miracles is showing, which is understandable. Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQmpk7IMO8I CD, not related, but I'll ask again... if someone pressed you on your Deism, how would you defend it?zweston
November 29, 2021
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#19 Queirius With all due respect to Seversky, to me, the issue isn't whether Jesus existed, it is whether he rose from the dead. Per Paul (1 Corinthians 15;14), that is a deal maker or breaker. None of your proffered "witnesses" speak to the resurrection.chuckdarwin
November 29, 2021
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