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In time for American Thanksgiving: Stephen Meyer on “the frailty of scientific atheism”

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Steve Meyer, author of The Return of the God Hypothesis, observes in a pdocast with Wesley Smith, “you rarely hear people refer to a ‘consensus’ in science when there actually is one.”

What’s needed, he says, and what is increasingly under siege in our culture, is the idea of “science as an open form of inquiry,” where “science advances as scientists argue about how to interpret the evidence.” Meyer would like to see more scientific debate, across the board, from climate change to Darwinian evolution to “many issues that have arisen in response to the Covid epidemic.” I couldn’t agree more. I want to offer a thought about something that underlies the impulse to clamp down on debate, and it relates to Thanksgiving.

At the end of the podcast they touch on the fragility, the brittleness of the materialist picture of reality. Materialism is as oppressive as it is because it can’t afford one slip-up, not one exception to the iron rule that nothing exists beyond nature. Wesley cites a fascinating interview with two well known “proud atheists,” Harvard cognitive psychologist Steven Pinker and his wife, the philosopher Rebecca Goldstein. She wrote a particularly good book that I read when it came out, Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity. Both are committed to Spinoza-style rationalism. In the interview with Salon, Pinker and Goldstein make clear how fragile their atheism is…

David Klinghoffer, “Thanksgiving and the Frailty of Scientific Atheism” at Evolution News and Science Today

Wesley Smith’s got a point. As a totalistic philosophy, “scientific atheism” (materialism) can be confuted by a single contrary example. Other philosophies are more robust. For example, one shyster evangelist doesn’t prove that all religion is wrong.

Anyway, materialist atheism is — you read it here first — slowly being destroyed by panpsychism. Panpsychism (everything is conscious) makes more sense. Here’s why:

Recall Egnor’s Principle: If your hypothesis is that even electrons are conscious, your hypothesis is likely wrong. But if your hypothesis is that the human mind is an illusion, then… you don’t have a hypothesis. That’s slowly killing “scientific” atheism.

You may also wish to read: A Darwinian biologist resists learning to live with panpsychism. Jerry Coyne makes two things quite clear: He scorns panpsychism and he doesn’t understand why some scientists accept it. The differences between panpsychism and naturalism are subtle but critical. As panpsychism’s popularity grows, insight will be better than rage and ridicule.

Comments
William J Murray, Ok, let's pretend that God appeared to you in a burning bush with a voice like thunder and commissioned you as his special messenger. Naturally, you'd doubt your sanity, but just for sake of your previous objections and your admission that you don't know, let's assume this experience was genuine and real. How would you be able to convince rightly skeptical people that you're really truly God's messenger? Here's the rub. You're not allowed to simply terrify people because that would be coercion. You need to convince them of A. God's existence, B. his love for them, C. his intent to save them from the cancer of evil in this world and upcoming global "surgery," and D. facilitate their Free Will relationship with God. You can request miraculous powers or scintillating intellect or whatever, but no coercion. You're given three years and no, you can't go back in history. Ok, so you walk into London. Do you try to make an appointment with Queen Elizabeth? The Archbishop of Canterbury? Graham Norton or Stephen Colbert? Do you announce yourself in Piccadilly Circus? Put up billboards and rent a stadium? How about starting at the Petersham hotel in Richmond Hill? Or maybe more modestly in West London? What would be your approach? -QQuerius
November 29, 2021
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Bornagain77 @45,
Thanks Zweston, and especially Querius, for your posts defending the historical reliability of the resurrection. I’ll think I’ll tuck post 19, about hostile witnesses confirming key parts of the resurrection, into my notes for future reference.
Glad to share it with you, Bornagain77. Isn’t it interesting that Seversky simply vanished after I destroyed his assertion that Jesus was mostly or entirely a myth?
C: Jesus is a mythical figure like, say, Robin Hood, possibly based distantly on a real person or persons but no more real than that. D: Jesus is an entirely fictional character invented as the personification of the faith’s core principles.
This stupid assertion keeps popping up with boring regularity and is shot down each time. I believe the reason for his disappearance is that even if his arguments are destroyed, it won’t change his mind because there’s other, less-scholarly reasons behind his infinite skepticism. So, if we knew what the real reason was and we could address it, I think he would then be open to the love that God has for him and a wonderful life-changing experience! -QQuerius
November 29, 2021
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Zweston @43,
Q- make sure you watch all his content on the arguments supporting the validity of the Bible… undesigned coincidences, etc…. his last one “Jesus is ALIVE” is really solid as well. A wealth of content. His website is: isjesusalive.com
Thanks! I certainly will. -QQuerius
November 29, 2021
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William J Murray @21,
1. How do you know that only God would be able do what Jesus did?
Actually, I wrote the reverse, that Jesus would be able to do things that only God could do. They’re not the same thing. The answer to the reverse question is that since the avatar of William J Murray is able to do things unique to the person behind the avatar, it’s not illogical to conclude that the only begotten avatar of God could do things that only God can do.
2. Given this is a unique example, how could we possibly understand “what to expect” from followers and eyewitnesses?
While I can’t speak for you, most people can easily extrapolate “what to expect” based on similar miraculous or perceived miraculous events. Watch the video segment that I posted in my response @42 (from the video Zweston posted). -QQuerius
November 29, 2021
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WJM, if the God that is described in scripture validates himself via prophecy, dominion over nature, miracles, healings, exorcism... and that same author says repent and follow Jesus... would it make sense to say "well, maybe there are some other ones out there, so no need to heed that warning"?zweston
November 29, 2021
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WJM.... If prophecy is correct from a document, and that document establishes who God is and points to a specific character... then doesn't that give you a reason to hold to that explanation? What is your alternative position and anything that would substantiate that position...zweston
November 29, 2021
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IOW, "God" is always beyond the reach of evidence or logic to identify as the being that did anything; logically, being the ground itself for existence, the uncaused cause, is all we can say with confidence about God. Beyond that - who knows what all kinds of beings exist, what kind of power they have, supernatural or not? Who knows what they can do or cannot do? I certainly don't know. For all I know, some very powerful entity created this entire universe and runs it the way he wants to, and other similar beings created and run different universes, and all THE "God" does is provide the existential grounds for all of that. How the heck would I know?William J Murray
November 29, 2021
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Zweston asks:
WJM, You write off specific fulfilled prophecy as an indicator of a supernatural person verifying their message?
Also, if Jesus literally commanded a storm to stop and it obeyed, don’t you think you could logically deduce a supernatural being that has power over nature might lend itself to a God claim? (heavy on the sarcasm)
No, I don't write that off. "Supernatural person" does not equal, or indicate, "God." Being able to foretell the future does not logically indicate "God." Being able to "command nature" does not logially indicate "God." That is all circular reasoning, circling back to the claim that the being that did these things is "God."William J Murray
November 29, 2021
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Also, if Jesus literally commanded a storm to stop and it obeyed, don't you think you could logically deduce a supernatural being that has power over nature might lend itself to a God claim? (heavy on the sarcasm)zweston
November 29, 2021
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WJM, You write off specific fulfilled prophecy as an indicator of a supernatural person verifying their message? Isaiah 52-53, Psalm 22, Genesis 3:15, Genesis 22, Jonah and the Whale, Samson did more in his death than in his life, Passover-10th plague and then the sacrifice system, Other passages in Isaiah, Micah, Zechariah, David slays the giant, Isaac's descendants will reign forever, etc... could go on and on. Thorns were a sign of the curse, and Jesus wore them as a crown. Blessed are we because of the one who wore our shame.zweston
November 29, 2021
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Zweston said:
At severe risk of sounding condescending, I do believe the boundary is emotional and spiritual, not evidential.
I agree with this, and it's not condescending because it cuts both ways; those that cross the barrier do so for the same reason as those who do not cross: it's an emotional and spiritual choice. Either way, you can attempt to justify that choice with logic and evidence, but frankly I don't see how either side can win that competition. Even given that every single miraculous event actually happened as described in the Bible, there is zero logical or evidential connection between those events and "God;" there is only an asserted connection to "God" as being the cause or source of the ability to do those things.William J Murray
November 29, 2021
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At severe risk of sounding condescending, I do believe the boundary is emotional and spiritual, not evidential. Paul tells us the cross is folly to those who don't believe and that it is spiritually discerned. Another evidence is the effectiveness and documented commentary by historical figures of the 1st and second century of the efficacy of Christian exorcism: https://lausanne.org/content/historical-overview-1 I have to tell you, BA... hearing those quotes and testimonies never gets Old. Love your posts and defense of the Gospel. A good study of C.S. Lewis' story of conversion should be enough to soften a heart and open a mind toward Christ. Scientism is the modern day cult religion and evolution as its origin myth. However, just like in Jesus' time: Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing." What is maybe the most exhausting for me is the claim "there is no evidence" of Jesus raising from the dead. There is so much lack of reason and ability to define common terms. Just like I don't think the post-modern "your truth" movement is a coincidence... When the truth is plain, the only way to thwart it is to redefine the word and give it no value. To be a skeptic is to box yourself in like David Hume and just pre-suppose there is no miracles, or make your own definition that suits your standard of proof/evidence, but then disregard that standard on almost everything you believe, except that which has an eternal implication. It was noted above...when you see the lack of quality of arguments against the faith, it should only give you greater confidence. There were plenty of people with motivation to prove that Jesus didn't resurrect. The problem was that the tomb was empty and hundreds of people were claiming to have seen Jesus simultaneously. When we stand before God, we will be without excuse. John 3:36 is just as important as John 3:16.zweston
November 28, 2021
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@JVL #30 Oh, I'm well aware of the group (nobody worth their salt takes them seriously). I'm also aware that there are plenty of people—smart people even—who deny that the holocaust occurred, and their numbers are on the rise. If one wants to deny the historical Jesus, then they should do the same for most of the Ancient Greek author as well.KRock
November 28, 2021
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Thanks Zweston, and especially Querius, for your posts defending the historical reliability of the resurrection. I'll think I'll tuck post 19, about hostile witnesses confirming key parts of the resurrection, into my notes for future reference. 19 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/in-time-for-american-thanksgiving-stephen-meyer-on-the-frailty-of-scientific-atheism/#comment-741252 Craig Keener's video is a powerful apologetic too. God Still Works Miracles Today w/ Dr. Craig Keener https://youtu.be/C0B18ofJGaY of note: A British agnostic once said “let’s not discuss the other miracles; let’s discuss the resurrection. Because if the resurrection is true, then the other miracles are easily explained; and if the resurrection is not true, the other miracles do not matter.” Sir Edward Clark — a prominent lawyer in Great Britain “As a lawyer, I have made a prolonged study of the evidences for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. To me, the evidence is conclusive; and over and over again in the high court, I have secured the verdict on evidence not nearly so compelling. The Gospel evidence for the resurrection I accept unreservedly as the testimony of truthful men to facts that they were able to substantiate.” Canon Westcott — for years a brilliant scholar at Cambridge University “Indeed, taking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ. Nothing but the antecedent assumption that it must be false could have suggested the idea of deficiency in the proof of it.” Thomas Arnold — Professor of History at Oxford University; author of a 3-volume history on ancient Rome “I have been used for many years to study the history of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them; and I know of no fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than that Christ died and rose again from the dead.” http://www.awordfromtheword.org/what-if.htm “I humbly add I have spent more than 42 years as a defense trial lawyer appearing in many parts of the world and am still in active practice. I have been fortunate to secure a number of successes in jury trials and I say unequivocally the evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.” Sir Lionel Luckhoo. A British lawyer knighted for his work. He won 245 consecutive murder cases. “Let [the Gospel's] testimony be sifted, as it were given in a court of justice on the side of the adverse party, the witness being subjected to a rigorous cross-examination. The result, it is confidently believed, will be an undoubting conviction of their integrity, ability, and truth.” Simon Greenleaf from his book “Testimony of the Evangelicals”. Greenleaf was one of the founders of the Harvard Law School who wrote the book “A Treatise on the Law of Evidence”. He was an atheist until some students challenged him to examine the evidence for the resurrection of Christ.bornagain77
November 28, 2021
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Querius @35 said:
1. Would you say that it’s common for people to rise from the dead? Option B in @12 is correct, then what other actions, behaviors, and teachings would you expect from God wrapped in a human body? There are a number of possibilities that most people can imagine.
I have absolutely no idea what "God wrapped in a human body" would do. You're using circular reasoning here. You're taking an account of what someone you believe to be "God wrapped in a human body" did, and then saying that this is the kind of thing you'd expect from such a situation.
2. Many surprising and unique events in history can give you a clue about people’s reactions. These include seemingly miraculous upsets in sports, a “miracle drug” that cures you of something, an amazing presenter on a subject of interest—articulate, clear, well-informed, and entertaining, or perhaps a miraculous medical event such as this one: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32234287/
You're doing the same thing; you're taking the example of how people behaved in the case you believe to be of God wrapped in a human body and saying that how people were reported to have been behaving is how people would behave if they were experiencing God wrapped in a human body. First, outside of your prior circular reasoning and assuming your own premise, you have no idea how God wrapped in a human body would behave, and therefore you cannot by extension have any idea how people would react to God wrapped in a human body. IOW, there is no reason for you to think, except by presupposing the case in question to be that situation, that God wrapped in a human body would behave that way and do those things which would precipitate any behavior of those around such a being. For all you know, absent presupposing the case in question as true, what God would do is be completely unnoticeable and not perform any miracles or draw attention to himself, and nobody around him would even notice.William J Murray
November 28, 2021
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Q- make sure you watch all his content on the arguments supporting the validity of the Bible... undesigned coincidences, etc.... his last one "Jesus is ALIVE" is really solid as well. A wealth of content. His website is: isjesusalive.comzweston
November 28, 2021
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William J Murray @21, Here's another example of a person's reaction when they witness (or at least think they've witnessed) someone rising from the dead: https://youtu.be/C0B18ofJGaY?t=1956 Thus, when many apostles and disciples saw Jesus after being raised from the dead, it's no wonder that they responded with great excitement and enthusiasm even when persecuted and martyred. -QQuerius
November 28, 2021
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See https://www.amazon.com/The-Historical-Jesus-Ancient-Evidence/dp/0899007325/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_5?ie=UTF8&refRID=049RF6H3VS7WWT6FP3F9kairosfocus
November 28, 2021
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As I posted earlier, Jesus also had real historical detractors of which we have real historical writings. That even the Talmud asserts that Jesus existed but was “a magician” and “a sorcerer” speaks volumes. To arbitrarily exclude the summary that I presented of the historical evidence is no different than editing and rewriting history to suit one's preferences and ideology. Of course, people are free to do so, but then they're dropping any pretense of being objective, but simply reveal the fantasy in which they insist on living. -QQuerius
November 28, 2021
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JVL @30,
There is a group of Biblical scholars who cast doubt on the existence of the Biblical Jesus; they are called mythicists.
I think it's safe to say that they're considered to be on the fringe. Even Bart Ehrman, hardly a believer in Jesus as the Messiah, agrees that Jesus really did exist in history. He writes
“This is not an issue for scholars. There is no scholar in any college or university who teaches classics, ancient history, new testament, early christianity, who doubts that Jesus existed. He is abundantly attested in early sources. Early and independent sources indicate that Jesus certainly existed. Paul is an eyewitness to both Jesus’ disciple Peter and the brother of Jesus. Like, I’m sorry. Atheists have done themselves a disservice by jumping on the bandwagon of mythicism because it makes you look foolish to the outside world.”
Here's an article that examines the question and the skeptics: https://reasonsforjesus.com/jesus-exist-scholars-agree-certainly-existed/ -QQuerius
November 28, 2021
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Jerry @29, Good points.
Second, ID has nothing to do with Christianity. It is supportive of all who believe there is a creator and whatever religion postulates there is a creator of the universe. So it does support Christianity in that sense.
I agree--ID takes no position on the intelligent designer and shouldn't. However, an ID perspective produces better scientific results in assuming that existing biological structures have a designed purpose worthy of investigation rather than none. For example, "junk DNA" is now considered a misnomer because "non-coding DNA" does have recently discovered functionality.
Finally, Objections to ID and Christianity are on display and they mainly consist of snarky and specious claims. These are people who have access to the best arguments against either produced in the world of thought.
Yes, I've frequently noticed the same thing. -QQuerius
November 28, 2021
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For those interested in the Shroud of Turin, go to www.shroud.com. Nearly all the research is there Di Lazzaro shows up several times. The interesting thing about the Shroud is that there is no other artifact in the history of the world with the same properties. Especially since it came on the scene about 800 years ago and there were stories about it way before that.jerry
November 28, 2021
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Zweston @23, Thank you, Zweston. Good points all. And thanks also for the reference to the Testify channel on YouTube, of which I'm watching this video: God Still Works Miracles Today w/ Dr. Craig Keener https://youtu.be/C0B18ofJGaY -QQuerius
November 28, 2021
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William J Murray @21,
1. How do you know that only God would be able do what Jesus did? 2. Given this is a unique example, how could we possibly understand “what to expect” from followers and eyewitnesses?
1. Would you say that it’s common for people to rise from the dead? Option B in @12 is correct, then what other actions, behaviors, and teachings would you expect from God wrapped in a human body? There are a number of possibilities that most people can imagine. 2. Many surprising and unique events in history can give you a clue about people’s reactions. These include seemingly miraculous upsets in sports, a “miracle drug” that cures you of something, an amazing presenter on a subject of interest—articulate, clear, well-informed, and entertaining, or perhaps a miraculous medical event such as this one: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32234287/ -QQuerius
November 28, 2021
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Ram, HUH?, You asked for the primary source on the VUV radiation study. I traced it down. You gave no 'logical' reason for rejecting it, but just called it "just a bunch of B.S." You then ask me "Care to make a logical argument here?" Again, HUH? and you then state, "I predict you cannot. What I’m asking for is this: Make a claim and defend it in your own words. And let’s engage. Can you do it?" Again, HUH? I 'logically' defended the claim myself by tracing the primary source for the VUV study down. Yet, you are the one who gave no logical reason whatsoever for rejecting the VUV radiation study. Do you want me to go do the VUV radiation tests myself? And exactly how will me performing the test be better than what the scientists at The Italian National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development, (ENEA), found? You said you want me to "make a logical argument", but you yourself have not made a logical reply to the study in the first place. Empirical evidence is what it is, and calling it "just a bunch of B.S." is certainly not giving me a 'logical' reason for you not accepting the empirical evidence that I presented to you. In fact the tone of your reply, i.e. "just a bunch of B.S.", is very much indicative that your reply was driven far more by your prior emotions about the subject than it was by your logical analysis of the subject. But anyways, as to giving you my own words,,, well, in this thread at post 15, 'in my own words', I asked atheists/non-Christians this following question, "My question to atheists is this, if you truly believe some mad genius forger in the middle ages made this image (of the Shroud), then please pray tell why did this mad genius save all his genius for this supposed forgery alone and not for, say, inventing photography itself since he surely would have required mastery of photography to pull off the forgery? Not to mention mastery of laser holography."
Shroud of Turin: From discovery of Photographic Negative, to 3D Information, to Hologram https://youtu.be/F-TL4QOCiis So basically, we have a clothe with a photographic negative image on it that was made well before photography was even invented. Moreover, the photographic negative image has a 3-Dimensional holographic nature to its image that was somehow encoded within the photographic negative well before holography was even known about. Moreover, even with our present day technology, we still cannot replicated the image in all its detail. My question to atheists is this, if you truly believe some mad genius forger in the middle ages made this image, then please pray tell why did this mad genius save all his genius for this supposed forgery alone and not for, say, inventing photography itself since he surely would have required mastery of photography to pull off the forgery? Not to mention mastery of laser holography. Moreover, why did this hypothetical mad super-genius destroy all of his scientific instruments that he would have had to invent in order to make the image? Leonardo da Vinci would not have been worthy to tie the shoe laces of such a hypothetical mad genius! https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/in-time-for-american-thanksgiving-stephen-meyer-on-the-frailty-of-scientific-atheism/#comment-741231 John 20:3-9 So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen. Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)
bornagain77
November 28, 2021
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BA77, sorry, just a bunch of B.S. Care to make a logical argument here? I predict you cannot. What I'm asking for is this: Make a claim and defend it in your own words. And let's engage. Can you do it? --Ramram
November 28, 2021
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Jerry: Second, ID has nothing to do with Christianity. I'm not sure Dr Dembski would agree with you. See: https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/bill-dembski-offers-some-thoughts-on-the-current-state-of-christian-apologetics/JVL
November 28, 2021
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ET: Heck there is more evidence for the Loch Ness monster then there is for UCD via blind and mindless processes. That cannot be true since there is zero evidence for the Lock Ness monster and the only way zero can be 'more' than some other value is if the other value is negative.JVL
November 28, 2021
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KRock: When it comes to the historical Jesus, even the most ardent liberal New Testament scholars believe he was a real person, which would put your comments on par with the lunatic fringe—you know, the same group of people who deny the holocaust actually happened. There is a group of Biblical scholars who cast doubt on the existence of the Biblical Jesus; they are called mythicists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory Whether or not they are considered the lunatic fringe is up for debate. But it is a real movement.JVL
November 28, 2021
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Three things: First, It seems that the critics here are mainly focused on Christianity and that this is their main rationale for objecting to ID. Second, ID has nothing to do with Christianity. It is supportive of all who believe there is a creator and whatever religion postulates there is a creator of the universe. So it does support Christianity in that sense. Finally, Objections to ID and Christianity are on display and they mainly consist of snarky and specious claims. These are people who have access to the best arguments against either produced in the world of thought. Or else we would be seeing more coherent arguments. I therefore assume these coherent arguments don’t exist. So those who are criticizing are actually extremely supportive of both ID and Christianity. jerry
November 28, 2021
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