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In time for American Thanksgiving: Stephen Meyer on “the frailty of scientific atheism”

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Steve Meyer, author of The Return of the God Hypothesis, observes in a pdocast with Wesley Smith, “you rarely hear people refer to a ‘consensus’ in science when there actually is one.”

What’s needed, he says, and what is increasingly under siege in our culture, is the idea of “science as an open form of inquiry,” where “science advances as scientists argue about how to interpret the evidence.” Meyer would like to see more scientific debate, across the board, from climate change to Darwinian evolution to “many issues that have arisen in response to the Covid epidemic.” I couldn’t agree more. I want to offer a thought about something that underlies the impulse to clamp down on debate, and it relates to Thanksgiving.

At the end of the podcast they touch on the fragility, the brittleness of the materialist picture of reality. Materialism is as oppressive as it is because it can’t afford one slip-up, not one exception to the iron rule that nothing exists beyond nature. Wesley cites a fascinating interview with two well known “proud atheists,” Harvard cognitive psychologist Steven Pinker and his wife, the philosopher Rebecca Goldstein. She wrote a particularly good book that I read when it came out, Betraying Spinoza: The Renegade Jew Who Gave Us Modernity. Both are committed to Spinoza-style rationalism. In the interview with Salon, Pinker and Goldstein make clear how fragile their atheism is…

David Klinghoffer, “Thanksgiving and the Frailty of Scientific Atheism” at Evolution News and Science Today

Wesley Smith’s got a point. As a totalistic philosophy, “scientific atheism” (materialism) can be confuted by a single contrary example. Other philosophies are more robust. For example, one shyster evangelist doesn’t prove that all religion is wrong.

Anyway, materialist atheism is — you read it here first — slowly being destroyed by panpsychism. Panpsychism (everything is conscious) makes more sense. Here’s why:

Recall Egnor’s Principle: If your hypothesis is that even electrons are conscious, your hypothesis is likely wrong. But if your hypothesis is that the human mind is an illusion, then… you don’t have a hypothesis. That’s slowly killing “scientific” atheism.

You may also wish to read: A Darwinian biologist resists learning to live with panpsychism. Jerry Coyne makes two things quite clear: He scorns panpsychism and he doesn’t understand why some scientists accept it. The differences between panpsychism and naturalism are subtle but critical. As panpsychism’s popularity grows, insight will be better than rage and ridicule.

Comments
Ram at 25, I traced the source to the '34 thousand billion watt' article to here:
DI LAZZARO, P. - MURRA, D. - NICHELATTI, E. - SANTONI, A.- BALDACCHINI, G. - Shroud-like Coloration of Linen by Nanosecond Laser Pulses in the Vacuum Ultraviolet, ENEA Report 2012. Editor's Note: A similar paper by the same authors also appeared in the peer reviewed journal Applied Optics, Vol. 51, Issue 36, pp. 8567-8578 (2012), titled Superficial and Shroud-like coloration of linen by short laser pulses in the vacuum ultraviolet. [21 January 2013] https://www.shroud.com/library.htm#papers Superficial and Shroud-like coloration of linen by short laser pulses in the vacuum ultraviolet -DI LAZZARO, P. - MURRA, D. - NICHELATTI, E. - SANTONI, A.- BALDACCHINI, G. Applied Optics, Optical Society of America, vol. 51, pp. 8567-8578 (2012), 2012 Abstract We present a survey on five years of experiments of excimer laser irradiation of linen fabrics, seeking a coloration mechanism able to reproduce the microscopic complexity of the body image embedded onto the Shroud of Turin. We achieved a superficial, Shroud-like coloration in a narrow range of irradiation parameters. We also obtained latent coloration that appears after artificial or natural aging of linen following laser irradiations that, at first, did not generate any visible effect. Most importantly, we have recognized photochemical processes that account for both coloration and latent coloration. https://www.academia.edu/3478909/Superficial_and_Shroud-like_coloration_of_linen_by_short_laser_pulses_in_the_vacuum_ultraviolet?auto=download
And here are the slides to a 2017 powerpoint presentation that was given by Paolo Di Lazzaro where he, (at about the 30th slide of the presentation), discusses the 34 thousand billion watt result,
Linen Coloration by Pulsed Radiation. A Review. Slides of the talk presented at the International Conference on the Shroud of Turin, Pasco (USA) July 2017, Paolo Di Lazzaro https://www.academia.edu/38029774/Linen_Coloration_by_Pulsed_Radiation._A_Review
Specifically, Lazzaro's 30th slide in his powerpoint presentation states,
34 thousand billion watt is an impressive number but,, * Back to basics: let us consider the fraction A/B. If B is very small then A/B results in a very large number.,,, * 17 joules energy/0.00000001 seconds results in 1.7 billion watt. It is called "peak power" which different of the commonly used "average power". * The above peak power was delivered to 1 cm^2 flax. Being the average man skin surface = 2 m^2 = 20,000 cm^2, we have 34 thousand billion watt necessary to complete the body image on the Shroud.
bornagain77
November 28, 2021
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@Seversky #18 Do you believe the Ancient Greek philosopher, Socrates existed? When it comes to the historical Jesus, even the most ardent liberal New Testament scholars believe he was a real person, which would put your comments on par with the lunatic fringe—you know, the same group of people who deny the holocaust actually happened.KRock
November 28, 2021
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Sev asks, "What reason do you have for thinking that God “beaming up” Jesus from the tomb would involve an extremely brief but powerful flash of VUV radiation?" Well first off, I presupposed nothing as to what it would actually take for God to raise Jesus from the dead. I simply pointed out towards the end of the following video, (where I lay out the case for Christ's resurrection from the dead providing a very plausible, and in all likelihood, correct solution for the much sought after 'theory of everything', i.e. the unification of Quantum Mechanics with General Relativity),,,
Jesus Christ as the correct "Theory of Everything" - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpn2Vu8--eE
,,, I simply pointed out towards the end of the preceding video, that, quote-unquote, "besides gravity being dealt with on the Shroud of Turin, the Shroud also gives us evidence that Quantum Mechanics itself was dealt with.",,, And that ”it would take 34 Thousand Billion Watts of VUV radiations to make the image on the shroud. This output of electromagnetic energy remains beyond human technology", certainly gives us evidence that quantum mechanics itself was dealt with. To be clear, generating vacuum ultraviolet (VUV) radiation is indeed a quantum affair.
A spectrally bright wavelength-switchable vacuum ultraviolet source driven by quantum coherence in strong-field-ionized molecules - 2021 Abstract We report generation of spectrally bright vacuum ultraviolet (VUV) and deep UV (DUV) coherent radiations at the wavelengths of 192 nm, 198 nm and 204 nm. These DUV/VUV radiations originate from resonant four-wave mixing assisted by quantum coherence in tunnel-ionized CO molecules.,, https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1367-2630/abde6e
As to providing empirical evidence that it is even possible for a human body to generate, and emit 'quantum light', the following article states, "there is evidence for non-molecular information transfer due to endogenous coherent light.", (i.e. biophotons, i.e biological laser light)
Cellular Communication through Light - 2009 Excerpt: Information transfer is a life principle. On a cellular level we generally assume that molecules are carriers of information, yet there is evidence for non-molecular information transfer due to endogenous coherent light. This light is ultra-weak, is emitted by many organisms, including humans and is conventionally described as biophoton emission.? http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0005086 Biophotons - The Light In Our Cells - Marco Bischof - March 2005?Excerpt page 2: The Coherence of Biophotons: ,,, Biophotons consist of light with a high degree of order, in other words, biological laser light. Such light is very quiet and shows an extremely stable intensity, without the fluctuations normally observed in light. Because of their stable field strength, its waves can superimpose, and by virtue of this, interference effects become possible that do not occur in ordinary light. Because of the high degree of order, the biological laser light is able to generate and keep order and to transmit information in the organism. https://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/body_and_health/Biophotons%20-%20The%20Lights%20in%20Our%20Cells.pdf
And the following study found that humans emit light that is "well described by the signal in a quantum squeezed state of photons."
Photocount distribution of photons emitted from three sites of a human body - 2006 Abstract Spontaneous photon emission from 30 sites on the skin of a live human subject is measured at different times and on different days. Signals from three representative sites of low, intermediate and high intensities are selected for further analysis. Fluctuations in these signals are measured by the probabilities of detecting different numbers of photons in a bin. The probabilities have non-classical features and are well described by the signal in a quantum squeezed state of photons. Measurements with bins of three sizes yield same values of three parameters of the squeezed state. A procedure for making correction due to background noise is developed. The correction changes the parameters of the quantum state. The new state appears more like a coherent state of photons. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16520060?
You can see pictures of a human emitting biophotons, i.e. biological laser light, here:
Image - This first image shows one of the test subjects in full light. The middle image shows the body giving off weak emissions of visible (biophotonic) light in totally dark conditions. The rightmost image of the subject, captured in infrared wavelengths, shows the heat emissions https://www.livescience.com/7799-strange-humans-glow-visible-light.html
Moreover, to relate the Shroud of Turin to the fact that humans emit light that is "well described by the signal in a quantum squeezed state of photons", in the following study it was found that "the optical density distribution, (on the Shroud of Turin),, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the ‘quantum’ is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril.
The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete values – Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio – 2008 Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the ‘quantum’ is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril. http://cab.unime.it/mus/541/1/c1a0802004.pdf
So a viable mechanism of biophoton, (i.e. biological laser light), emission from the human body exists that provides a plausible explanation for the 'quantum' image we see on the Shroud of Turin,,
Shroud of Turin: From discovery of Photographic Negative, to 3D Information, to Hologram https://youtu.be/F-TL4QOCiis Matthew 17:1-2? After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 2 Peter 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
bornagain77
November 28, 2021
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BA77: it would take 34 Thousand Billion Watts of VUV radiations to make the image on the shroud. You quote some secondary source for this claim. Please provide a link to the primary research by whoever is making this claim. Thank you.ram
November 28, 2021
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There is more evidence for the existence of Jesus then there is for universal common descent via blind and mindless processes. Heck there is more evidence for the Loch Ness monster then there is for UCD via blind and mindless processes.ET
November 28, 2021
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Nice Post, Q! It is exasperating to see the ad-hoc explanations that are likely not even likely espoused by the ones posting it.... they just need an "out" or a plausible scenario to wiggle out of accountability and the implications of a personal God who will execute justice and also save those who belong to his kingdom. What parts of Jesus' tea There is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. God is making all things new and restored to what they should have been. We were made to be in awe and to worship, but sin cursed the world through the temptation of the fallen angel satan (which, we also have evidence for in the accounts of demonic possession that are documented) and Jesus came to break the curse on humanity. When you look around and say "this isn't how it should be" you affirm there is a state of perfection, a standard to which you judge things. But should there be a standard if we are pond scum? I'd say not. If you have any intellectual dignity, you'd look at the evidence for the resurrection and say "man, it is pretty compelling for 2000 years ago and a supernatural claim, but I can't buy a resurrection or I honestly don't really want to." The problem here, as has been the case as long as I have seen, is an emotional one. Our minds and hearts are hostile to God by nature, and we need restored and reconciled. Hence Jesus. Then, one day we will be with him, and he with us. It will be a place of fullness of Joy and pleasures forevermore. We will see beauty beyond comparison and will have all things good in their proper order. If you want to look at maximal data to support the authenticity of the gospels, I highly suggest the channel "testify" on youtube. Lots of content I didn't really know about until this past year that is very interesting and compelling and done in a concise and engaging way. Just check it out.zweston
November 28, 2021
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Nice Post, Q! It is exasperating to see the ad-hoc explanations that are likely not even likely espoused by the ones posting it.... they just need an "out" or a plausible scenario to wiggle out of accountability and the implications of a personal God who will execute justice and also save those who belong to his kingdom. There is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. God is making all things new and restored to what they should have been. We were made to be in awe and to worship, but sin cursed the world through the temptation of the fallen angel satan (which, we also have evidence for in the accounts of demonic possession that are documented) and Jesus came to break the curse on humanity. No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends When you look around and say "this isn't how it should be" you affirm there is a state of perfection, a standard to which you judge things. But should there be a standard if we are pond scum? I'd say not. If you have any intellectual dignity, you'd look at the evidence for the resurrection and say "man, it is pretty compelling for 2000 years ago and a supernatural claim, but I can't buy a resurrection or I honestly don't really want to." The problem here, as has been the case as long as I have seen, is an emotional one. Our minds and hearts are hostile to God by nature, and we need restored and reconciled. Hence Jesus. Then, one day we will be with him, and he with us. It will be a place of fullness of Joy and pleasures forevermore. We will see beauty beyond comparison and will have all things good in their proper order. If you want to look at maximal data to support the authenticity of the gospels, I highly suggest the channel "testify" on youtube. Lots of content I didn't really know about until this past year that is very interesting and compelling and done in a concise and engaging way. Just check it out.zweston
November 28, 2021
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Querius said:
... if Jesus was indeed uniquely God wrapped in a human body, his behavior and words would be unique in many respects. God in a human body would not need to make unsupported claims but would do and say things that ONLY God would be able to do such as demonstrating many scientific impossibilities and rising from the dead. Followers and eyewitnesses to such a person would behave in ways that would be expected if Jesus was indeed God wrapped in a human body.
1. How do you know that only God would be able do what Jesus did? 2. Given this is a unique example, how could we possibly understand "what to expect" from followers and eyewitnesses?William J Murray
November 28, 2021
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Bornagain77/15
Chuckdarwin states, “Jesus’ resurrection from the dead–don’t think so” Yet the Shroud of Turin, stubbornly, and persistently, thinks otherwise,
ENEA suggests a possible mechanism using vacuum ultra-violet radiation for producing some of the effects observed on the fabric of the Shroud. That's a long, long way from confirming the Resurrection or that the Shroud provides the basis for a Theory of Everything.
To give us a small glimpse of the power that was involved in Christ’s resurrection from the dead, the following article found that, ”it would take 34 Thousand Billion Watts of VUV radiations to make the image on the shroud. This output of electromagnetic energy remains beyond human technology.
What reason do you have for thinking that God "beaming up" Jesus from the tomb would involve an extremely brief but powerful flash of VUV radiation?Seversky
November 27, 2021
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In a court of law, the testimonies of hostile witnesses are particularly effective when their admissions run contrary to their personal motivations and loyalties. While it’s popular in some circles to question the historical existence of Jesus and the events around his life, the following extra-Biblical sources from around that time are hostile to Jesus and Christianity, but still acknowledge Jesus in history. Jewish Historian, Josephus Flavius (37 AD – circa 100 AD) Possibly the earliest extra-Biblical account mentioning Jesus comes from the Jewish historian Josephus. Originally named, Joseph ben Mattathias, Josephus was born in Jerusalem in 37 AD of priestly and royal lineage. After a spiritual search that didn’t include or even acknowledge Christianity, he eventually aligned himself with the sect of the Pharisees. After being appointed commander of the revolutionary forces in Galilee during the First Jewish-Roman War, Josephus was captured by the Romans in 67 AD. However, instead of being executed, Josephus was able to convince Vespasian, commander of the Roman legions in Judaea, that he was a prophet and that a prophecy about the future world rulers coming from Judaea meant that Vespasian would become emperor of Rome. When this actually came to pass, Vespasian adopted him as his son. Josephus took the Flavius family name as his own, became a Roman citizen, and was commissioned by Vespasian to be an official historian. In his 20-volume work, Antiquities of the Jews, written circa 93-94 AD, Josephus records the fact that James, the brother of Jesus, was martyred. In this work, we read the following:
But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim [or Sanhedrin] of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done . . . - Antiquities of the Jews, Book 20, Chapter 9:1
The Gospel of Matthew relates that Jesus had brothers named James, Joseph, and Simon, and he had several sisters as well. James was a leader in the Jerusalem church. See Matthew 13:54-57a, Acts 15. According to the world’s leading Josephus Flavius scholar, Louis Feldman, the above quote is “almost universally acknowledged,” and beyond dispute. The following information can be derived from this text: • There was a man named Jesus who was called Christ. • Jesus had a brother named James. • James and his companions were accused by the High Priest of a capital violation of Jewish law. • James and his companions were executed by stoning, which was the penalty under the Mosaic law for extreme infractions. However, under Roman rule Ananus had no right to convene the Sanhedrin, the supreme religious and judicial council of 71 Jewish sages at the time, or have James and others executed. According to Josephus, the Roman Procurator strongly objected to Ananus’ presumptuous action, which resulted in King Agrippa to removing Ananus from office. James was executed around 62 AD. The second reference to Jesus is called the Testimonium Flavium. In his autobiography, Josephus recognized three sects of Judaism: Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes, and in the Testimonium Flavium, he called Christians a “tribe” rather than a fourth sect. This establishes that Josephus had an unfavorable view of Christianity. However, the passage is controversial due to two likely insertions, called interpolations, by a later copyist. The first interpolation questions whether Jesus could properly even be called a man and the second one states that Jesus was the Messiah. Thus, scholars concluded that the passage was altered. Using textual analysis and the compilation of manuscripts, the majority of modern scholars, including Alice Whealey in her work Josephus on Jesus, agree that Josephus had described the historical person of Jesus in the passage but that the original text would likely have read as follows:
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. - Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 3:3
According to another leading Jewish scholar, Geza Vermes, the reconstructed version of this passage provides an authentic portrayal of Jesus by Josephus, depicting him as a wise teacher and miracle worker with an enthusiastic group of followers who remained faithful to him even after his crucifixion by Pilate. Then in 1971, Shlomo Pines published citations of the Testimonium Flavium from recently discovered 9th or 10th century Arabic and Syriac texts quoting a 4th century Arabic version. The passage in these documents is similar to the reconstructed text. Thus, the following information can reasonably be derived from this passage: • There was a historical figure named Jesus, who was considered a wise man, a miracle worker, and a teacher to those who wanted to hear truth. • Jesus gained a devoted following among both Jews and Greeks. • Jesus was crucified under Pilate at the instigation of prominent Jewish leaders. • The disciples of Jesus were called “Christians,” from the Greek word for Messiah, and continued to love his teachings even to the time of Josephus, about 65 years later. The writings of Josephus are available online at http://josephus.org/joschron.htm. Roman Historian, Cornelius Tacitus (circa 56 AD – circa 118 AD) In Annuls, Book 15, Tacitus wrote the following about the Great Fire of Rome that burned for a total of nine days, destroying two-thirds of Rome in AD 64:
. . . But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular.
The following information can be derived from this passage: • A despised group called “Christians” by the population were blamed for the fire. • The man called Christus “suffered the extreme penalty,” a reference to crucifixion. • The execution was carried out under Pontius Pilatus, as recorded in the New Testament. • Tacitus refers to Christianity as “a most mischievous superstition” spreading in Judea and Rome. Autoclytus (unknown dates of birth and death) About 170 AD, Theophilus, Bishop of Antioch replied in writing to a friend named Autoclytus, who was hostile to Christianity, tried to redefine the derogatory use of “Christian” into a positive term.
When we had formerly some conversation, my very good friend Autolycus, and when you inquired who was my God, and for a little paid attention to my discourse, I made some explanations to you concerning my religion; and then having bid one another adieu, we went with much mutual friendliness each to his own house, although at first you had borne somewhat hard upon me. - To Autolycus, Book 2, Chapter 1
While, the original conversation with Autoclytus wasn’t recorded, Theophilus’ reply highlights the contempt associated with the term, Christian. But first, some background information. “Christian” was a name commonly used by people in reference to the early believers in Jesus, who called themselves disciples and followers of “the Way” as recorded in the New Testament: Acts 9:1-2, 19:9, 19:23, 22:4, 22:14, and 24:22. Naming these believers Christians is also recorded in Acts.
And he [Barnabas] left for Tarsus to look for Saul [the Apostle Paul]; and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers of people; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. – Acts 11:25-26 (NASB)
Note the following: • Antioch was the capital of the Roman province of Syria, now located in the region of Antakya, Turkey. • The name and title of Jesus of Nazareth in Hebrew is Yeshua Ha’Machiach, which is translated into Jesus the Messiah in English. • Messiah in Hebrew means “anointed one,” referring to the historical Israelite practice of a priest anointing a newly installed king with oil for this special role, symbolizing the presence of the Holy Spirit in that person. The Greek equivalent of anointed one is Khristos and in Latin it’s Christus . And now, here’s what Theophilus wrote in reply.
And about your laughing at me and calling me "Christian," you know not what you are saying. First, because that which is anointed is sweet and serviceable, and far from contemptible . . . And what work has either ornament or beauty unless it be anointed and burnished? Then the air and all that is under heaven is in a certain sort anointed by light and spirit; and are you unwilling to be anointed with the oil of God? Wherefore we are called Christians on this account, because we are anointed with the oil of God. - Theophilus to Autolycus, Book 1, Chapter 12
Theophilus returned to the Greek word for ointment, chrisma, meaning anointed with oil in this case and by implication by the Holy Spirit. Theophilus suggested to Autoclytus that the word, Christian, should actually be understood as a desirable and honored description of all genuine Christians. The following information can be derived from this passage: • “Christian” was originally used as a derogatory term for the followers of Jesus, even as late as 170 AD. • Among the Christians of that time, there was an association between anointing oil and the working of the Holy Spirit through the lives of the believers. Greek Satirist, Lucian of Samosata (120 AD – circa 180 AD) From Lucian’s work, The Death of Peregrinus:
The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.
The following information can be derived from these passages: • “Christians” continued worshiping Jesus after his death and were devoted to his teachings. • Jesus was considered a sage and died by crucifixion. • Christians believe that they’ve received eternal life, and thus have courage over death. • Christians believe that they are all spiritual brothers with one another as stated in Galatians 3:24-28, and they selflessly share their worldly possessions as “common property” as recorded in Acts 4:32-35. • Christians reject Greek polytheism and instead worship Jesus as God. The Jewish Talmud The Talmud is a collection of Jewish historical traditions, civil and ceremonial law, and commentaries. There are two similar versions: the Jerusalem Talmud dating from around 375 AD and the Babylonian Talmud dating from around 500 AD. We read the following in the Jerusalem Talmud:
"Forty years before the destruction of the Temple [in 70 AD], the western light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open." - Jacob Neusner, The Yerushalmi, p.156-157
A similar passage in the Babylonian Talmud states the following:
"Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ['For the Lord'] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves." - Soncino version, Yoma 39b
The “Lot for the Lord” and the crimson-colored cord were associated with the yearly Jewish temple rituals for the atonement of sins. Both ritual elements behaved in a manner disturbing to the priests. In addition, there were miraculous and puzzling signs involving the bronze massive temple doors and the solid gold temple menorah, which was three cubits high. Historically, a priest was assigned to tend the seven lamps on the temple menorah, filling them with oil, preparing the wicks, and lighting them every day. The middle lamp was called the lamp of Elohim (God) and was always supposed to be lit continuously. Disturbingly, this middle lamp kept going out. So, what exactly happened 40 years before the destruction of the Temple? Forty years before 70 AD is 30 AD, the likely year of the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus in the Talmud The degree of hostility toward Jesus can be appreciated from the following passage, but it also provides additional clues about what Jesus did in his ministry.
On (Sabbath eve and) the eve of Passover, Jesus the Nazarene was hanged and a herald went forth before him forty days heralding, "Jesus the Nazarene is going forth to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and instigated and seduced Israel to idolatry. Whoever knows anything in defense may come and state it." But since they did not find anything in his defense, they hanged him on (Sabbath eve and) the eve of Passover. - Peter Schäfer, Jesus in the Talmud, Princeton University Press, 2007, pages 64-65
In addition, scholars have identified the following references in the Talmud that likely refer to Jesus: • Jesus as a sorcerer with disciples (b Sanh 43a-b) • Healing in Jesus’ name (Hul 2:22f; AZ 2:22/12; y Shab 124:4/13; QohR 1:8; b AZ 27b) • Jesus as a Torah teacher (b AZ 17a; Hul 2:24; QohR 1:8) • Jesus as a son or disciple that turned out badly (Sanh 103a/b; Ber 17b) • Jesus as a frivolous disciple who practiced magic and turned to idolatry (Sanh 107b; Sot 47a) • Jesus' punishment in afterlife (b Git 56b, 57a) • Jesus' execution (b Sanh 43a-b) • Jesus as the son of Mary (Shab 104b, Sanh 67a) Conclusion The written testimonies of hostile witnesses are valuable in that they indirectly confirm some of the basic content of the New Testament including the historical existence, ministry, miracles, trial and crucifixion of Jesus, and the committed faith of the early Christians. Other references in these hostile writings also confirm some of the historical details mentioned in the gospels, helping to place Jesus into a credible historical context. -QQuerius
November 27, 2021
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I think the point is we have rather more evidence for the Holocaust than we do for the existence of Jesus Christ, the Son of God manifest on Earth somewhere in the Middle East two thousand years ago.Seversky
November 27, 2021
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@Seversky If you think Jesus was a mythical figure, you're a lunatic! You'd fall into same category as those who believe the holocaust is a myth.KRock
November 27, 2021
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Seversky claims that "Jesus is a mythical figure like, say, Robin Hood, possibly based distantly on a real person or persons but no more real than that." Ironically, Seversky's own worldview of Darwinian materialism claims that Seversky himself is not a real person.
What Does It Mean to Say That Science & Religion Conflict? - M. Anthony Mills - April 16, 2018 Excerpt: Barr rightly observes that scientific atheists often unwittingly assume not just metaphysical naturalism but an even more controversial philosophical position: reductive materialism, which says all that exists is or is reducible to the material constituents postulated by our most fundamental physical theories. As Barr points out, this implies not only that God does not exist — because God is not material — but that you do not exist. For you are not a material constituent postulated by any of our most fundamental physical theories; at best, you are an aggregate of those constituents, arranged in a particular way. Not just you, but tables, chairs, countries, countrymen, symphonies, jokes, legal contracts, moral judgments, and acts of courage or cowardice — all of these must be fully explicable in terms of those more fundamental, material constituents. https://www.realclearreligion.org/articles/2018/04/16/what_does_it_mean_to_say_that_science_and_religion_conflict.html
Go figure? If Seversky, via his Darwinian materialism, can't even know for certain if he himself is a real person or not I'm sure as heck not going to trust Seversky's judgment, (if he really exists), on establishing the reality of any other person, especially someone as important as Jesus.bornagain77
November 27, 2021
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Chuckdarwin states, "Jesus’ resurrection from the dead–don’t think so" Yet the Shroud of Turin, stubbornly, and persistently, thinks otherwise,
The evidence for the Shroud's authenticity keeps growing. (Timeline of facts) - What Is the Shroud of Turin? Facts & History Everyone Should Know - Myra Adams and Russ Breault - November 08, 2019 https://www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/what-is-the-shroud-of-turin.html The Shroud of Turin w/ Dr. Wayne Phillips - Sacred Heart Church, Tampa - Sept. 2021 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K91jWtBTOFo Shroud of Turin: From discovery of Photographic Negative, to 3D Information, to Hologram https://youtu.be/F-TL4QOCiis
To give us a small glimpse of the power that was involved in Christ's resurrection from the dead, the following article found that, ”it would take 34 Thousand Billion Watts of VUV radiations to make the image on the shroud. This output of electromagnetic energy remains beyond human technology.”
Astonishing discovery at Christ’s tomb supports Turin Shroud – NOV 26TH 2016 Excerpt: The first attempts made to reproduce the face on the Shroud by radiation, used a CO2 laser which produced an image on a linen fabric that is similar at a macroscopic level. However, microscopic analysis showed a coloring that is too deep and many charred linen threads, features that are incompatible with the Shroud image. Instead, the results of ENEA “show that a short and intense burst of VUV directional radiation can color a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin, including shades of color, the surface color of the fibrils of the outer linen fabric, and the absence of fluorescence”. ‘However, Enea scientists warn, “it should be noted that the total power of VUV radiations required to instantly color the surface of linen that corresponds to a human of average height, body surface area equal to = 2000 MW/cm2 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion watts makes it impractical today to reproduce the entire Shroud image using a single laser excimer, since this power cannot be produced by any VUV light source built to date (the most powerful available on the market come to several billion watts )”. Comment The ENEA study of the Holy Shroud of Turin concluded that it would take 34 Thousand Billion Watts of VUV radiations to make the image on the shroud. This output of electromagnetic energy remains beyond human technology. http://westvirginianews.blogspot.com/2011/12/new-study-claims-shroud-of-turin-is.html
Also of interest is this fascinating tidbit:
Shroud Of Turin hologram reveals the words ‘The Lamb’ - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tmka1l8GAQ RESEARCH 3 LETTERS ON SOLID OBJECT THREE HEBREW LETTERS IN RELIEF ON THE SURFACE OF THE OVAL SOLID OBJECT —UNDER THE BEARD IN THE NECK AREA — Excerpt: THE THREE HEBREW LETTERS: Hebrew is a language that is written and read from the right to the left. So the three letters that are visible are from right to left: TS’ADE—ALEPH—NUN (see image 9),,, There is however something more with the word TS’ON. Like we mentioned before, in KLEIN’s dictionary it is translated as: “small cattle, sheep and goats”. (This is like saying “soldiers” instead of army and TS’ON is NOT a flock but “sheep and goats”). The EXCEPTION for the translation of the word TS’ON, we find in Exodus 12:21. When the Israelites are ordered by God to prepare a lamb for sacrifice and after the sacrifice put the blood on the doorposts, the word that is used for lamb is SEH (Exodus 12:3) and that is correct. However, in Exodus 12:21 it says: “Then Moses summoned all the elders of Israel and said to them, “Go at once and select the animals for your families and slaughter the (Passover) lamb”. The word that is used in the Bible is TS’ON and this is the ONLY TIME in the whole of the Bible that the word TS’ON is used as lamb and it is specifically translated as such for this occasion. In the Judaic Tradition this sentence in Exodus 12:21 is also understood (translated) as: “MAKE A SIGN WITH THE LAMB”, (By putting the blood of the lamb on the doorpost). The reason for this is that there is a very close relationship in the root and also in the sound, between the word TS’ON and the word TS’IOEN, and this word means “sign”. In the Judaic Tradition when words have the same root and/or sound, they are like “family of each other” and are very closely related in meaning and use. So, we find again a direct connection between the word TS’ON, and Jesus Christ, who is the Passover lamb, dying at the moment on Friday afternoon when in the Temple the sacrifice of the lambs took place. “The Lamb of God that takes away the sins of this world”. (See figure 16 and 17, the Passover Lamb). https://shroud3d.com/research-on-the-3d-materials/research-3-letters-on-solid-object/
So basically, we have a clothe with a photographic negative image on it that was made well before photography was even invented. Moreover, the photographic negative image has a 3-Dimensional holographic nature to its image that was somehow encoded within the photographic negative well before holography was even known about. Moreover, even with our present day technology, we still cannot replicated the image in all its detail. My question to atheists is this, if you truly believe some mad genius forger in the middle ages made this image, then please pray tell why did this mad genius save all his genius for this supposed forgery alone and not for, say, inventing photography itself since he surely would have required mastery of photography to pull off the forgery? Not to mention mastery of laser holography. Moreover, why did this hypothetical mad super-genius destroy all of his scientific instruments that he would have had to invent in order to make the image? Leonardo da Vinci would not have been worthy to tie the shoe laces of such a hypothetical mad genius!
John 20:3-9 So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen. Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)
bornagain77
November 27, 2021
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I always get sev and cd mixed up.... ugh... CD... what do you believe about Jesus? Because all of the claims you are making have big problems. Listing off random alternative explanations doesn't demonstrate anything. What is your stance, and could you present the evidence to hold that up? It seems you are just squishy on everything...except that Christianity is false. Are you willing to risk your eternity on conjecture and un-substantiated ad-hoc explanations that weren't espoused until centuries after? If your faith is in Bart Ehrman, you might want to re-evaluate critically. If someone challenges you on your deism...what reasons would you give that God exists?zweston
November 27, 2021
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C: Jesus is a mythical figure like, say, Robin Hood, possibly based distantly on a real person or persons but no more real than that. D: Jesus is an entirely fictional character invented as the personification of the faith's core principles.Seversky
November 27, 2021
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Chuckdarwin @11, There are only two options: A: Jesus was a lunatic or fraud. Lunatics exhibit well-known behaviors that clinical psychologists can easily identify. Frauds accumulate money, fame, and sex partners. Followers abandon lunatics and frauds as their behaviors become increasingly extreme. Lunatics and frauds all die as do the rest us. B: Jesus was God wrapped in a human body, with all its limitations and weaknesses. In this case, if Jesus was indeed uniquely God wrapped in a human body, his behavior and words would be unique in many respects. God in a human body would not need to make unsupported claims but would do and say things that ONLY God would be able to do such as demonstrating many scientific impossibilities and rising from the dead. Followers and eyewitnesses to such a person would behave in ways that would be expected if Jesus was indeed God wrapped in a human body. Jesus did not claim to be a holy man and good teacher. He didn't give us that option. -QQuerius
November 27, 2021
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Jesus' death--likely Jesus' resurrection from the dead--don't think so This is a fundamental issue upon which deists, like myself, (and I imagine many atheists) reject Christianity. "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." 1 Corinthians 15:14chuckdarwin
November 27, 2021
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Sev & CD's worldview represent the black knight of Monty Python. I'd just like to know if they have ever honestly dealt with the counter evidence to their dogmatic hold on atheism? As BA77 has demonstrated again, the emperor has no clothes. How in the world someone can watch a microscope video of DNA replication and decide that it naturally assembled itself... oh my. I don't think we need to zoom in on complex ideas and depth of study, but maybe more zoom out and just apply common sense to our observations. Female or male first? Circulatory, nervous, or respiratory system first? etc. Human eye...by natural processes? Human thought, music, art...all just natural byproducts? Metamorphosis of a butterfly... I would imagine as individuals they are probably really good guys to talk with, and we probably agree with some of the critiques of what has been done in the name of Christ. But, I find them incredibly intellectually dishonest and evasive. I know that they must have somewhat of an atheist safeguard so they don't delve into the possibility that God exists... possible options 1. The God espoused by the Bible is immoral, so I don't need to follow him and who would want to? Being away from Him would be better than with him. 2. If the God of the Bible doesn't exist, but another one does, they will surely judge me off of my life and behavior, so I'll be okay. --The evasion and objection is philosophical and emotional, not scientific. Also: If you can't answer every question and conundrum or paradox, that doesn't mean you throw out the baby with the bathwater. Atheists have no problem living in uncertainty about a MYRIAD of things and an acknowledgment of their limit of ability to understand and comprehend, but when you apply that to a faith in Jesus, that just won't fly for them. Two different standards based on emotional/philosophical presuppositions/biases. Jesus' death and resurrection demand a verdict (nod to Mr. McDowell)... what is your verdict?zweston
November 27, 2021
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"and you keep him/her alive." Well actually no that would be God, through His grace, Who patiently keeps Seversky alive, and can keep him alive forever more.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. “I was in the spiritual dimension. And this spiritual dimension, this spiritual world, that's the real world. And this spiritual man that I was seeing and perceiving, that was the real me. And I instantly knew it. The colors are brighter. The thoughts are more intense. The feelings have greater depth. They're more real. In the spirit world instantly I knew that this is the real world.,,, and also instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it's going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.',,, 34 minute mark, after talking about how incomprehensibly wonderful it was like for him to be in the presence of God, Robinson then remarks, “It is never going to be boring in heaven” In The Presence Of Almighty God – The Near Death Experience of Mickey Robinson – video (testimony starts at 27:45 minute mark) https://youtu.be/voak1RM-pXo?t=1655
bornagain77
November 27, 2021
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Bornagain77 Thus in conclusion, Seversky...
...is a troll and you keep him/her alive.Lieutenant Commander Data
November 27, 2021
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Now to Seversky's second unfounded presupposition, i.e. Seversky necessarily presupposes "a place of certainty" from which he can form 'a reasonable doubt' about the existence of God, or 'a reasonable doubt' about the existence of anything else for that matter. Again, that presupposed 'place of certainty' simply does not exist in Seversky's atheistic worldview. As Rene Descartes, and many others, have pointed out, our sense of self, i.e. “I am”, i.e. “I exist as a real person”, is the most certain thing that we can possibly know about reality. As Rene Descartes put it, “we cannot doubt of our existence while we doubt….”
Cogito, ergo sum Cogito, ergo sum[a] is a Latin philosophical proposition by René Descartes usually translated into English as “I think, therefore I am”.[b] The phrase originally appeared in French as je pense, donc je suis in his Discourse on the Method, so as to reach a wider audience than Latin would have allowed.[1] It appeared in Latin in his later Principles of Philosophy. As Descartes explained, “we cannot doubt of our existence while we doubt….” A fuller version, articulated by Antoine Léonard Thomas, aptly captures Descartes’s intent: dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum (“I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am”).[c][d] The concept is also sometimes known as the cogito.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito,_ergo_sum
In other words, Rene Descartes In his ‘method of doubt’, (and via a thought experiment of a malicious demon who was intent on deceiving him about everything he was perceiving), found that he could doubt the existence of all things save for the fact that he existed in order to do the doubting in the first place. In short, the most certain thing we can possibly know about reality is the fact the we exist as real, conscious, persons. And from the conclusion that he could only be certain of the fact that he existed in order to do the doubting in the first place, Rene Descartes then went on to use that 'certain' conclusion from his ‘method of doubt’ as a starting point to then argue for the existence of God. (i.e. the argument from consciousness.)
René Descartes (1596—1650) Excerpt: 5. God a. The Causal Arguments At the beginning of the Third Meditation only “I exist” and “I am a thinking thing” are beyond doubt and are, therefore, absolutely certain. From these intuitively grasped, absolutely certain truths, Descartes now goes on to deduce the existence of something other than himself, namely God. https://www.iep.utm.edu/descarte/#SH4a
And Descartes is hardly alone in his belief that everything we can possibly know, and/or say, about the material world must first start with the fact that we, undeniably, have conscious, immaterial, minds. Three giants of quantum mechanics, Planck, Schrodinger and Wigner, also held this view,
“No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” Max Planck (1858–1947), the main founder of quantum theory, The Observer, London, January 25, 1931 “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334.
As Wigner succinctly explained, "The principal argument (against atheistic materialism) is that thought processes and consciousness are the primary concepts, that our knowledge of the external world is the content of our consciousness and that the consciousness, therefore, cannot be denied.
“The principal argument against materialism is not that illustrated in the last two sections: that it is incompatible with quantum theory. The principal argument is that thought processes and consciousness are the primary concepts, that our knowledge of the external world is the content of our consciousness and that the consciousness, therefore, cannot be denied. On the contrary, logically, the external world could be denied—though it is not very practical to do so. In the words of Niels Bohr, “The word consciousness, applied to ourselves as well as to others, is indispensable when dealing with the human situation.” In view of all this, one may well wonder how materialism, the doctrine that “life could be explained by sophisticated combinations of physical and chemical laws,” could so long be accepted by the majority of scientists.” – Eugene Wigner, Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, pp 167-177.
Yet this 'place of certainty', i.e. the belief that we exist as real, conscious, persons, is simply denied by atheists. Consciousness itself, and therefore the belief that we exist as real persons, is simply, (or is that simplistically), held to be a 'neuronal illusion' within the Atheist's materialistic framework.
The Brain: The Mystery of Consciousness - Monday, Jan. 29, 2007 Part II THE ILLUSION OF CONTROL Another startling conclusion from the science of consciousness is that the intuitive feeling we have that there's an executive "I" that sits in a control room of our brain, scanning the screens of the senses and pushing the buttons of the muscles, is an illusion. - Steven Pinker - Professor in the Department of Psychology at Harvard University http://www.academia.edu/2794859/The_Brain_The_Mystery_of_Consciousness "There is no self in, around, or as part of anyone’s body. There can’t be. So there really isn’t any enduring self that ever could wake up morning after morning worrying about why it should bother getting out of bed. The self is just another illusion, like the illusion that thought is about stuff or that we carry around plans and purposes that give meaning to what our body does. Every morning’s introspectively fantasized self is a new one, remarkably similar to the one that consciousness ceased fantasizing when we fell sleep sometime the night before. Whatever purpose yesterday’s self thought it contrived to set the alarm last night, today’s newly fictionalized self is not identical to yesterday’s. It’s on its own, having to deal with the whole problem of why to bother getting out of bed all over again.,,, - Alex Rosenberg - Professor of Philosophy Duke University - The Atheist’s Guide to Reality, ch.10
The claim that our sense of self, that is to say, our conscious experience, is just a neuronal illusion is simply self-refuting nonsense. As David Bentley Hart states in the following article, “Simply enough, you cannot suffer the illusion that you are conscious because illusions are possible only for conscious minds. This is so incandescently obvious that it is almost embarrassing to have to state it.”
The Illusionist – Daniel Dennett’s latest book marks five decades of majestic failure to explain consciousness. – 2017 Excerpt: “Simply enough, you cannot suffer the illusion that you are conscious because illusions are possible only for conscious minds. This is so incandescently obvious that it is almost embarrassing to have to state it.” – David Bentley Hart https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-illusionist
Moreover, it is not just the preceding (very) powerful 'logical' argument that establishes that consciousness must be primary in any coherent definition of reality that we may put forth, but empirical science itself has now also falsified the atheist's belief that material particles are primary and consciousness is secondary. Specifically, advances in quantum mechanics have now falsified 'realism', (which is the (atheistic) belief that a material reality exists completely apart from consciousness, or more specifically, completely apart from our conscious observation of it.) As the following violation of Leggett's inequality found, "Leggett's inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we're not observing it."
Quantum physics says goodbye to reality - Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: Many realizations of the thought experiment have indeed verified the violation of Bell's inequality. These have ruled out all hidden-variables theories based on joint assumptions of realism, meaning that reality exists when we are not observing it; and locality, meaning that separated events cannot influence one another instantaneously. But a violation of Bell's inequality does not tell specifically which assumption – realism, locality or both – is discordant with quantum mechanics. Markus Aspelmeyer, Anton Zeilinger and colleagues from the University of Vienna, however, have now shown that realism is more of a problem than locality in the quantum world. They devised an experiment that violates a different inequality proposed by physicist Anthony Leggett in 2003 that relies only on realism, and relaxes the reliance on locality. To do this, rather than taking measurements along just one plane of polarization, the Austrian team took measurements in additional, perpendicular planes to check for elliptical polarization. They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell's thought experiment, Leggett's inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we're not observing it. "Our study shows that 'just' giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics," Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. "You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism." http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640
And as the following Delayed Choice experiment with atoms found, “reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,”.
New Mind-blowing Experiment Confirms That Reality Doesn’t Exist If You Are Not Looking at It – June 3, 2015 Excerpt: The results of the Australian scientists’ experiment, which were published in the journal Nature Physics, show that this choice is determined by the way the object is measured, which is in accordance with what quantum theory predicts. “It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,” said lead researcher Dr. Andrew Truscott in a press release.,,, “The atoms did not travel from A to B. It was only when they were measured at the end of the journey that their wave-like or particle-like behavior was brought into existence,” he said. Thus, this experiment adds to the validity of the quantum theory and provides new evidence to the idea that reality doesn’t exist without an observer. http://themindunleashed.org/2015/06/new-mind-blowing-experiment-confirms-that-reality-doesnt-exist-if-you-are-not-looking-at-it.html
Moreover, it is not just Leggett's Inequality and Wheeler's Delayed choice experiments that prove that consciousness must be primary. There are many other intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that also converged to the same conclusion.
Eight intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness must precede material reality 1. Double Slit experiment, 2. Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, 3. as well as the recent confirmation of the Wigner's friend thought experiment, 4. Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, 5. Leggett’s Inequalities, 6. Quantum Zeno effect, 7. Quantum Information theory and the experimental realization of the Maxwell demon thought experiment, 8. and last but not least, the recent closing of the Free Will loophole by Anton Zeilinger and company.
Thus the atheist, as far as empirical science itself is concerned, is now experimentally falsified, via several lines of converging evidence, in his belief that material reality is primary and that consciousness is secondary and/or 'illusory'. Moreover, putting all these lines of evidence from quantum mechanics together, the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this:
1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality (Jerry Coyne). or is an intrinsic property of material reality, (panpsychism, Philip Goff) 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality (Jerry Coyne). or is an intrinsic property of material reality, (panpsychism, Philip Goff), then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality.
Thus in conclusion, Seversky, (since he denies the reality of his own immaterial mind), has no place to ground logical reasoning in the first place, nor does he even have 'a place of certainty' in which to be able to form a 'reasonable doubt' about God's existence in the first place. And on top of all that, empirical science itself gives the Christian Theist more than 'reasonable doubt' about the primacy of the material particles that form the basis of Seversky's worldview, i.e. atheistic materialism.
Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”
bornagain77
November 27, 2021
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Seversky claims, "To refute atheism you would need to demonstrate the existence of a god/creator/supreme designer beyond a reasonable doubt. This discussion would not be happening if that had happened." That claim is simply just plain nonsense. Implicit in Seversky's claim is that if even one dogmatic atheist, such as Seversky, (who has, I might add, shown himself, time and time again, to be impervious to reasoned argument), comes on UD and voices doubt about God's existence, no matter how good the arguments for God's existence may be, then God's existence, according to Seversky's criteria, has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Again, that is simply just plain nonsense. As Michael Egnor recently noted in response to Matt Dillahunty's 'Divine Hiddenness' argument, the atheist's argument assumes, "that God’s existence is contingent upon the disbelief of even one recalcitrant atheist. This argument is a precis of atheist arrogance — the atheist argument that God’s existence depends upon atheists’ opinion of Him."
The Divine Hiddenness Argument against God's Existence = Nonsense Excerpt: The atheist Divine Hiddenness argument seems to imply that God’s existence is contingent upon the disbelief of even one recalcitrant atheist. This argument is a precis of atheist arrogance — the atheist argument that God’s existence depends upon atheists’ opinion of Him. https://mindmatters.ai/2021/10/the-divine-hiddenness-argument-against-gods-existence-nonsense/
And as Michael Egnor further demonstrated in that article, (via the ten ways that God’s existence can be known), there is more than sufficient reason to convince any reasonable person, 'beyond a reasonable doubt', of God's existence.
The Divine Hiddenness Argument against God's Existence = Nonsense Excerpt: Is the information that God provides in these (ten) ways sufficient to convince a reasonable person of His existence? Consider the ten ways that simple everyday experience provides inexhaustible evidence for His existence: Every change in nature proves His existence. Every cause in nature proves His existence. Everything that exists in nature proves His existence. Every degree of perfection in nature proves His existence. Every manifestation of natural design proves His existence. Every realization of possibility in nature proves His existence. Every manifestation of organization in nature proves His existence. Every abstract concept proves His existence. Every reason for anything in nature proves His existence. And every twinge of human conscience proves His existence. Natural science provides massive evidence for His existence as well. The Big Bang — i.e., the creation of the universe from nothing in an immense primordial flash of light — is a remarkable confirmation of the beginning of the book of Genesis. Astrophysicists have discovered dozens of physical forces and properties in the universe that must have very specific values to permit human life — and of course these forces and properties do have exactly the values necessary for our existence (as if Someone rigged physics just for us). The DNA in living things is an actual code — in every meaningful sense like a computer code with letters and words, grammar and phrases, sentences and punctuation. And life forms’ intracellular metabolism is run by an astonishingly intricate and elegant system of biological nanotechnology. So my question to Dillahunty and to other atheists who endorse the Divine Hiddenness argument against God’s existence is this: What is it about God’s existence that you still consider hidden? (ibid)
Moreover, in his argument that God's existence has not been proven 'beyond a 'reasonable doubt', Seversky is, of necessity, presupposing that reason itself can somehow be grounded within his Atheistic worldview. Seversky is also, of necessity, presupposing that, somehow and someway, 'a place of certainty' exists within his Atheistic worldview from which he can form a 'reasonable doubt' about the existence of other things. In short, Seversky, in his argument against God, is presupposing an ability to reason and is also presupposing 'a place of certainty' from which he can form 'reasonable doubts'. Yet Seversky's Atheistic worldview can ground neither 'reasoning' nor 'a place of certainty'. First, in regards to reasoning itself. Since reasoning presupposes the existence of logic,
rea·son·ing noun the action of thinking about something in a logical, sensible way.
Since reasoning presupposes the existence of logic, then it is necessary for a person to be able to ground the existence of logic within their worldview in the first place. Yet, Seversky simply cannot ground logic within his worldview of Atheistic Naturalism. As Dr. Michael Egnor, (a former atheist turned Christian), explains, "Logic, after all, doesn’t exist “in the space-time continuum” and isn’t described by physics. What is the location of modus ponens? How much does Gödel’s incompleteness theorem weigh? What is the physics of non-contradiction? How many millimeters long is Clark’s argument for naturalism? Ironically the very logic that Clark employs to argue for naturalism is outside of any naturalistic frame."
Naturalism and Self-Refutation – Michael Egnor – January 31, 2018 Excerpt: Furthermore, the very framework of Clark’s argument — logic — is neither material nor natural. Logic, after all, doesn’t exist “in the space-time continuum” and isn’t described by physics. What is the location of modus ponens? How much does Gödel’s incompleteness theorem weigh? What is the physics of non-contradiction? How many millimeters long is Clark’s argument for naturalism? Ironically the very logic that Clark employs to argue for naturalism is outside of any naturalistic frame. The strength of Clark’s defense of naturalism is that it is an attempt to present naturalism’s tenets clearly and logically. That is its weakness as well, because it exposes naturalism to scrutiny, and naturalism cannot withstand even minimal scrutiny. Even to define naturalism is to refute it. https://evolutionnews.org/2018/01/naturalism-and-self-refutation/
And as J. Warner Wallace, (also a former atheist turned Christian), explains, "The Best and Most Reasonable Explanation for the Kind of Mind Necessary for the Existence of the Transcendent, Objective, Conceptual Laws of Logic is God"
Is God Real? Evidence from the Laws of Logic J. Warner Wallace January 9, 2019 Excerpt: All rational discussions (even those about the existence or non-existence of God) require the prior foundation of logical absolutes. You’d have a hard time making sense of any conversation if the Laws of Logic weren’t available to guide the discussion and provide rational boundaries. Here are three of the most important Laws of Logic you and I use every day:,,,, As an atheist, I would have been the first to describe myself as rational. In fact, I saw myself as far more reasonable than many of the Christians I knew. But, I was basing my rationality on my ability to understand and employ the Laws of Logic. How could I account for these transcendent laws without the existence of a transcendent Law Giver? (1) The Objective Laws of Logic Exist We cannot deny the Laws of Logic exist. In fact, any reasonable or logical argument against the existence of these laws requires their existence in the first place. The Objective Laws of Logic Are Conceptual Laws These laws are not physical; they are conceptual. They cannot be seen under a microscope or weighed on a scale. They are abstract laws guiding logical, immaterial thought processes. The Objective Laws of Logic Are Transcendent The laws transcend location, culture and time. If we go forward or backward a million years, the laws of logic would still exist and apply, regardless of culture or geographic location. The Objective Laws of Logic Pre-Existed Mankind The transcendent and timeless nature of logical laws indicates they precede our existence or ability to recognize them. Even before humans were able to understand the law of non-contradiction, “A” could not have been “Non-A”. The Laws of Logic were discovered by humans, not created by humans. (2) All Conceptual Laws Reflect the Mind of a Law Giver All laws require law givers, including conceptual laws. We know this from our common experience in the world in which we live. The laws governing our society and culture, for example, are the result and reflection of minds. But more importantly, the conceptual Laws of Logic govern rational thought processes, and for this reason, they require the existence of a mind. (3) The Best and Most Reasonable Explanation for the Kind of Mind Necessary for the Existence of the Transcendent, Objective, Conceptual Laws of Logic is God The lawgiver capable of producing the immaterial, transcendent laws preceding our existence must also be an immaterial, transcendent and pre-existent mind. This description fits what we commonly think of when we think of a Creator God. The Christian Worldview accounts for the existence of the transcendent Laws of Logic. If God exists, He is the absolute, objective, transcendent standard of truth. The Laws of Logic are simply a reflection of the nature of God. God did not create these laws. They are a reflection of His rational thinking, and for this reason, they are as eternal as God Himself. You and I, as humans, have the ability to discover these laws because we have been created in the image of God, but we don’t create or invent the laws. https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/is-god-real-evidence-from-the-laws-of-logic/
It is also interesting to note the fact that Christianity uniquely 'predicted' that logic preceded the existence of the universe. Specifically, in the very first verse of John we find that 'the Word' in John 1:1 is translated from the Greek word "Logos". "Logos" happens to be the root word from which we derive our modern word logic.
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” of note: ‘the Word’ in John1:1 is translated from ‘Logos’ in Greek. Logos also happens to be the root word from which we derive our modern word logic http://etymonline.com/?term=logic What is the Logos? Logos is a Greek word literally translated as “word, speech, or utterance.” However, in Greek philosophy, Logos refers to divine reason or the power that puts sense into the world making order instead of chaos.,,, In the Gospel of John, John writes “In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). John appealed to his readers by saying in essence, “You’ve been thinking, talking, and writing about the Word (divine reason) for centuries and now I will tell you who He is.” https://www.compellingtruth.org/what-is-the-Logos.html
Moreover, besides the fact that Seversky's atheistic worldview cannot even ground the existence of logic in the first place, Seversky's atheistic worldview, via the denial of free will, also renders any capacity that we might have had to reason in a logically coherent fashion null and void. As Martin Cothran explains, "By their own logic, it isn’t logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order."
The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It: Sam Harris’s Free Will - Martin Cothran - November 9, 2012 Excerpt: There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state — including their position on this issue — is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn’t logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. https://evolutionnews.org/2012/11/sam_harriss_fre/
As should be needless to say, the complete failure of Atheists to be able to account for the existence of logic, and for our ability to reason in a logically coherent fashion in the first place, pretty much renders any claim from the atheist that he is being 'reasonable' in his 'reasonable doubts' about God existence null and void. Put simply, the Atheist needs God to even have the capacity to argue against His existence in a logically coherent, and reasonable, fashion in the first place.bornagain77
November 27, 2021
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Open inquiry and debate are sorely lacking in science. Just look how Big Bang is protected. Despite all the evidence amassing against it, Big Bang continues to be forced to fit whatever is learned about the universe even when the evidence suggests something else happened. As far as climate change goes, climate is always changing. On a planet billions of years old with several great ice ages, of which we're still at the tail end of the last one, there have been plenty of times in Earth's history free of any ice, including the age of the dinosaurs. Kind of hard to see the Earth is warming faster than any time in history when there is still a great deal of ice left from the last ice age.BobRyan
November 26, 2021
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"What is it with this site and climate-change denial?" Circadian, Because the phrase "Climate Change" is a metaphorical umbrella under which a LOT of lying, cheating, and stealing are taking place. And there's no denying it. Andrewasauber
November 26, 2021
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Circadian at 2: Climate change? Oh: "What’s needed, he says, and what is increasingly under siege in our culture, is the idea of “science as an open form of inquiry,” where “science advances as scientists argue about how to interpret the evidence.”" Meyer would like to see more open discussion of evidence, we expect. Too much climate change activism - now that you mention it - sounds like an old-fashioned Temperance Crusade - at best. Once respected geneticist David Suzuki is under fire in Canada for obliquely threatening eco-terrorism... That is not the Road Ahead.News
November 25, 2021
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How is recognition of climate change a result of 'materialist atheism'? What is it with this site and climate-change denial? How are the two things related?Circadian
November 25, 2021
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Wesley Smith’s got a point. As a totalistic philosophy, “scientific atheism” (materialism) can be confuted by a single contrary example
Materialism/physicalism does not necessarily imply atheism. Both atheist and theistic scientists are perfectly able to conduct good research. To refute atheism you would need to demonstrate the existence of a god/creator/supreme designer beyond a reasonable doubt. This discussion would not be happening if that had happened.
Other philosophies are more robust. For example, one shyster evangelist doesn’t prove that all religion is wrong.
One shyster evangelist, no, but a number of them that are allowed to ply their trade and flourish unchallenged indicates a deep-rooted malaise in the faith.
Anyway, materialist atheism is — you read it here first — slowly being destroyed by panpsychism. Panpsychism (everything is conscious) makes more sense.
Panpsychism is speculation. We can't adequately explain our own consciousness let alone the possibility that the entire universe is some sort of conscious entity. But it's still fun to play around with such ideas.
Recall Egnor’s Principle: If your hypothesis is that even electrons are conscious, your hypothesis is likely wrong.
Maybe, but how would we even test such an idea, let alone know if it's right or wrong?
But if your hypothesis is that the human mind is an illusion, then… you don’t have a hypothesis. That’s slowly killing “scientific” atheism.
You call it a hypothesis but is it even that? How would you test it? It's not killing science or atheism. My impression was that the "mind is an illusion" thing comes more from philosophy than science and it really has nothing to do with atheism. Christians don't seem to have a problem with our consciousnesses being just thoughts in the mind of God. So what does that make them?Seversky
November 25, 2021
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