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Information vs. meaning: Why physicalism fails

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Physicalism is the point of vew that everything is material, including information, presumably adopted out of despair, as an alternative to saying even dumber things. From philosopher Daniel N. Robinson at the New Atlantis:

In attempts to account for distinctly human endeavors, explanations have a narrative quality. Thus, Jane’s aspiration to be a concert violinist accounts for — that is, explains — the many hours of practice expended over a course of years. Henry wishes to understand the defeat of Napoleon at Waterloo. The story — the explanation — runs along these lines: Wellington, after the battle of Quatre Bras, moved his forces to Waterloo. The allied Prussians moved to positions drawing a large portion of the French forces away from Waterloo to Wavre. With Prussians attacking Napoleon’s right flank and Wellington attacking the center, Napoleon’s fate was sealed.

Try to translate these two explanations — for why Jane practices the violin, and for why Napoleon was defeated — into terms faithful to evolutionary biology or neuroscience or the concentration of potassium in the human body. Try again. Alas, the thing just doesn’t work. Now adopt the empirical stance and see if you can come up with a theory of any sort that, even if not complete, would still be adequate for explaining these events. This won’t do much for us either, for events of historical moment express the beliefs, skills, powers, and plans of specific persons who, if removed from the narrative, leave us with an entirely different set of events. No doubt, absent a properly functioning nervous system, Jane can’t even hold the bow of a violin. Absent the evolutionary roots and branches, there are neither armies nor nations. We might agree with all of this and, at the same time, acknowledge the unique, personal, individuated character of those responsible for the events in question. There could not be War and Peace had there not been a developed language. But there could not have been War and Peace had there not been Tolstoy. What we search for to account for the great novel is not a causal theory but a deeper understanding. Here, then, is the Verstehen school of historiography, which does not try to find a causal explanation of an event based on objective factors alone, but rather to understand the particular intentions and contexts from the standpoint of the people involved. More.

Can we relate meaning to specified complexity?

See also: A defense of physicalism: Plankton could evolve minds

Niwrad: Consciousness is made of atoms too?

and

Data basic: An introduction to information theory

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Comments
Origenes @15: Yes, you're correct on that the anonymous MIT article references the link you provided which references this paper: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7267/full/nature08400.html https://arxiv.org/pdf/0905.2292.pdf Hence the MIT text is an interpretation of the abstract of the Nature paper. Does the MIT interpretation of the abstract of the referenced Nature paper contradicts anything said in that paper? It looks as though the abstract of the Nature paper also contains their interpretation of the phenomenon they observed. Which interpretation is closer to reality? Thanks.Dionisio
April 25, 2017
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Quite true Origenes, but the MIT article does. But thanks for your comments in any case.ayearningforpublius
April 25, 2017
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ayearningforpublius @11
I do see that you reference a Cornell paper at https://arxiv.org/abs/0905.2292 which is not the article that Dionisio references.
The anonymously written article that Dionisio references is supposedly based on that Cornell paper — see the reference at the bottom of the article. However, like I said in post @10, I don't see any basis for these speculative ideas in the Cornell paper.Origenes
April 25, 2017
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Dionisio @ 13: You are most welcome. And your repetition for emphasis was welcome. When I read your comments, the phrase "spoke into existence" or something like that, came to mind so I did a search and found, at least, these verses. Actually, I must have done a different search using a Biblical phrase containing "word". When I just now searched on "spoke into existence" I came up with more such as: https://www.openbible.info/topics/speaking_things_into_existence Maybe I should repeat this three or four times.ayearningforpublius
April 25, 2017
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ayearningforpublius @11: Thank you for your insightful comments @4-6 and the timely clarification @11. The text quoted @1-3 was copied from the 4th paragraph of the section "Information vs. Meaning" within the article "The Limits of Information" written by Daniel N. Robinson in the webpage pointed to by a link* in the OP News wrote to start this discussion thread. I decided to post it three times to highlight its importance. It's a style borrowed from the Book of books. (*) http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-limits-of-informationDionisio
April 25, 2017
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KF, I'm back and will try to follow up the commenting started @9 as per your kind request. Off topic, thank you for the clarification comment you wrote @3292* in the thread "Mystery at the heart of life" --though I doubt the politely-dissenting interlocutor who barked up the wrong tree understands it. In order to understand something we must have the will to do it. It's not a sufficient condition, but it's necessary. (*) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/mystery-at-the-heart-of-life/#comment-630199Dionisio
April 25, 2017
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Origenes @ 10: If you read the referenced MIT article, at the end you will indeed read: "All this work stems from the growing realisation that it is not the laws of physics that determine how information behaves in our Universe, but the other way round. The implication is extraordinary: that somehow, information is the ghostly bedrock of our Universe and from it, all else is derived. That really is mind-blowing." So, with respect, I for one do not understand your comment. I do see that you reference a Cornell paper at https://arxiv.org/abs/0905.2292 which is not the article that Dionisio references. Would you care to comment on the MIT article? Thanks.ayearningforpublius
April 25, 2017
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... it is not the laws of physics that determine how information behaves in our Universe, but the other way round. The implication is extraordinary: that somehow, information is the ghostly bedrock of our Universe and from it, all else is derived.
Someone has to explain to me where this idea comes from. It has little or nothing to do with the paper. Nowhere in the paper is mention of the laws of physics or any attempt to show how they are caused by information. What is suggested in the paper is way more modest and quite different:
We suggest that Information Causality, a generalization of no-signaling, might be one of the foundational properties of Nature.
Might not the laws of physics also be "one of foundational properties of Nature?"Origenes
April 25, 2017
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KF, Yes, will try to comment on this interesting topic, as per your suggestion. Thank you. This fascinating information issue is best seen in modern biology-related research. Every new discovery in this area of science sheds more light on marvelous spatiotemporal molecular and cellular choreographies orchestrated within amazing biological systems. My main problem with describing the complex functional specified information we see in the biological systems is lack of technical knowledge, but also because the whole thing humbles me to the point of making me speechless. Now I must step out for a while. I'll try to continue commenting after I come back.Dionisio
April 25, 2017
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it is not the laws of physics that determine how information behaves in our Universe, but the other way round. The implication is extraordinary: that somehow, information is the ghostly bedrock of our Universe and from it, all else is derived.
And I thought that the immaterial laws of physics were the ghostly bedrock of our Universe ...Origenes
April 25, 2017
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D, interesting, care to comment? KFkairosfocus
April 25, 2017
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Referring once more to Hebrews 11:3 -- " ... things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. ... " We see a direct refutation of the "materialistic" world view. This tells me that those ancient ignorant goat herders had an understanding of the "materialistic" world view that was active even back then, and rejected it.ayearningforpublius
April 25, 2017
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And I'll repeat what Dionisio said once more: In May 2009, M.I.T.’s Technology Review published a brief online essay titled “The Foundation of Reality: Information or Quantum Mechanics?” After citing some leading-edge theorizing, the essay concludes that it is not the laws of physics that determine how information behaves in our Universe, but the other way round. The implication is extraordinary: that somehow, information is the ghostly bedrock of our Universe and from it, all else is derived.ayearningforpublius
April 25, 2017
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The MIT article referenced by Dionisio above -- https://www.technologyreview.com/s/413515/the-foundation-of-reality-information-or-quantum-mechanics/ is quite technical and written by scientists, but take a look at how it concludes. Excerpt from the article: " ... All this work stems from the growing realization that it is not the laws of physics that determine how information behaves in our Universe, but the other way round. The implication is extraordinary: that somehow, information is the ghostly bedrock of our Universe and from it, all else is derived. That really is mind-blowing. ... " Now read this from the Bible -- Hebrews 11:3: " ... Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. ... " Think of that "by the word of God" ... word as we know from our everyday use implies information, and we also know from everyday use that "word" creates many things in world such as cars, houses, books, blueprints and schematics, music and more. More from the Bible -- Psalm 33: " ... By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth. He gathers the waters of the sea into jars; He puts the deep into storehouses. Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the people of the world revere him. For He spoke, and it came to be;He commanded, and it stood firm. ... " Returning to the MIT article ... Yes indeed " ... somehow, information is the ghostly bedrock of our Universe and from it, all else is derived. That really is mind-blowing. "ayearningforpublius
April 25, 2017
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OK, let's say it once more:
In May 2009, M.I.T.’s Technology Review published a brief online essay titled “The Foundation of Reality: Information or Quantum Mechanics?” After citing some leading-edge theorizing, the essay concludes that it is not the laws of physics that determine how information behaves in our Universe, but the other way round. The implication is extraordinary: that somehow, information is the ghostly bedrock of our Universe and from it, all else is derived.
Dionisio
April 24, 2017
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Let's repeat it:
In May 2009, M.I.T.’s Technology Review published a brief online essay titled “The Foundation of Reality: Information or Quantum Mechanics?” After citing some leading-edge theorizing, the essay concludes that it is not the laws of physics that determine how information behaves in our Universe, but the other way round. The implication is extraordinary: that somehow, information is the ghostly bedrock of our Universe and from it, all else is derived.
Dionisio
April 24, 2017
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In May 2009, M.I.T.’s Technology Review published a brief online essay titled “The Foundation of Reality: Information or Quantum Mechanics?” After citing some leading-edge theorizing, the essay concludes that it is not the laws of physics that determine how information behaves in our Universe, but the other way round. The implication is extraordinary: that somehow, information is the ghostly bedrock of our Universe and from it, all else is derived.
Dionisio
April 24, 2017
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