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Dr Thomas Frieden, formerly Director of the US CDC, 2017 in NEJM, on the need to go beyond placebo-controlled studies as “gold standard”

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One of the key steps in dismissing evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine-based cocktails in treating early stageCovid-19 for patients in vulnerable groups on an outpatient basis is the use of the premise that such evidence is of low quality as it does not match the “gold standard” of placebo-controlled, randomised tests (often. RCT’s). However, observations are observations, natural regularities are often observable from the first few trials, evidence is evidence, ethical and practical considerations are real, and valid scientific methods do not reduce to applied statistics.

It is in that context that we should attend carefully to remarks by Dr Thomas Frieden, writing in NEJM 3 1/2 years ago, in terms that uncannily anticipate our current woes:

Despite their strengths, RCTs have substantial limitations. Although they can have strong internal validity, RCTs sometimes lack external validity; generalizations of findings outside the study population may be invalid.2,4,6 RCTs usually do not have sufficient study periods or population sizes to assess duration of treatment effect (e.g., waning immunity of vaccines) or to identify rare but serious adverse effects of treatment, which often become evident during postmarketing surveillance and long-term follow-up but could not be practically assessed in an RCT. The increasingly high costs and time constraints of RCTs can also lead to reliance on surrogate markers that may not correlate well with the outcome of interest. Selection of high-risk groups increases the likelihood of having adequate numbers of end points, but these groups may not be relevant to the broader target populations. These limitations and the fact that RCTs often take years to plan, implement, and analyze reduce the ability of RCTs to keep pace with clinical innovations; new products and standards of care are often developed before earlier models complete evaluation. These limitations also affect the use of RCTs for urgent health issues, such as infectious disease outbreaks, for which public health decisions must be made quickly on the basis of limited and often imperfect available data. RCTs are also limited in their ability to assess the individualized effect of treatment, as can result from differences in surgical techniques, and are generally impractical for rare diseases.

Many other data sources can provide valid evidence for clinical and public health action. Observational studies, including assessments of results from the implementation of new programs and policies, remain the foremost source, but other examples include analysis of aggregate clinical or epidemiologic data . . .

He also presents a table of options with strengths and weaknesses, which we now sample:

Dr Thomas Friedman on strengths and limitations of Placebo controlled testing

Later in the same article, as he concludes, he also notes:

There is no single, best approach to the study of health interventions; clinical and public health decisions are almost always made with imperfect data (Table 1). Promoting transparency in study methods, ensuring standardized data collection for key outcomes, and using new approaches to improve data synthesis are critical steps in the interpretation of findings and in the identification of data for action, and it must be recognized that conclusions may change over time. There will always be an argument for more research and for better data, but waiting for more data is often an implicit decision not to act or to act on the basis of past practice rather than best available evidence. The goal must be actionable data — data that are sufficient for clinical and public health action that have been derived openly and objectively and that enable us to say, “Here’s what we recommend and why.”

In that context, it is appropriate for me to again highlight a diagram on sustainability oriented decision making, adapted from the Bariloche Foundation of Argentina:

Where, BAU is in fact a natural baseline of reference. We seek a more satisfactory alternative, ALT. It must be credible enough incrementally to justify onward exploration and that first requires becoming a candidate for more costly investigation that shifts epistemic probabilities. Where, of arguments by/among clever people there is no end, so empirical demonstration at various levels is pivotal.

Here, epistemology of empirically based knowledge does not allow for gold standards that impose selective hyperskepticism against otherwise reasonable evidence. Evidence is evidence (and various uncertainties, risks and potential for errors cannot be wholly eliminated). So, we must recognise that BAU is a baseline/ benchmark/ control, and there is no strict necessity to construct an artificial, no effective treatment baseline; call it 0TB.

After all, the point is really to improve outcomes from BAU, and gap analysis ALT vs BAU has no inherent reference to 0TB. Algebraically, on credible or observed outcomes, we see this from

(ALT – 0TB) – (BAU – 0TB) = ALT – BAU

Where, with people as test subjects, if 0TB is based on deception — e.g. sugar pills deliberately mislabelled and presented under false colours and ceremonies of medicine and research in the face of significant risk of harm to vulnerable patients — and has potential for significant harm, it becomes ethically questionable. We know of extreme cases of concentration camp experimentation, the Tuskegee syphilis atrocity and more. However in more recent times, people have been subjected to fake surgeries under general anesthesia etc. The placebo effect has covered a multitude of sins.

In the face of pandemic, urgency is another issue. What yields results in a timeframe relevant to taming the surge of cases becomes a highly relevant criterion. As does the tradeoff of lives lost under various treatment, public health [e.g. quarantines vs general lockdown] and policy options. Where, relevantly, economic dislocation carries a toll in health and lives too. (It is suggested by some that deaths of despair and from postponed medical procedures may/do exceed those attributed to the epidemic.) This means BTW that the dismal science, Economics, has a seat at the decision makers’ table as of right.

It is time for mindset change. END

PS/UD Aug 15: I have found at Bit Chute, a July 28 Frontline Doctors seminar which describes several mechanisms of action. Accordingly, I take liberty to annotate a screenshot, summarising several mechanisms of action described by these Doctors [cf. here for their references], but which are hard to find because of now almost pervasive censorship:

I note, this first answers a puzzle on the mode of action, shape-shift of ACE2: the shift is INTERNAL to the cell by hindering “glycation” of the final AA (thus prior to exposure to buffering of blood etc), altering the shape enough to hamper S-protein reception. This reduces fusion with bilipid layer and RNA injection.

Other direct mechanisms as noted, reduce intracellular acidity thus action of organelles. They highlight stalling of assembly of new viri in the Golgi bodies, with implication of blocking export of fresh viri, thus hampering the multiplication chain. The by now well known indirect activity is that as a lipophilic molecule, HCQ enters the cell bilipid layer membrane, acting as a Zn ionophore, i.e. it “shoots” Zn into the cell. Zn in turn hinders a key viral enzyme, RdRP.

Thus, we see a plausible picture of causal action, involving multiple, synergistic effects. This lends credibility to the use of HCQ-based cosctails in treating the early viral phases of CV19.

PPS: Given tendencies to be dismissive, I here reproduce two key illustrations/charts from Dr Raoult’s work on now over 3,000 patients at IHU in Marseilles France.

First, his statistical summary on difference made with vulnerable groups through HCQ-Azithromycin treatment, by May:

We note that expected death rates for vulnerable groups are as high as 15%.

Next, here is a chart from his early, about 80 patient stage, illustrating rapid reduction of viral load . . . for which we now have specific, scientifically plausible causal mechanisms on the table:

I add, just for stirring the pot, a Frontline Doctors chart on CV19 case fatality rates vs accessibility of HCQ:

Thus, we see good reason to accept that HCQ-based cocktails (which were available from the outset of the pandemic) are credibly effective and should not have been treated with the extreme skepticism, hostility and suppression we have instead seen. Note, the leader of the Frontline Doctors, Dr Simone Gold, was fired immediately on leading a public protest. Frankly, that smacks of whistleblower retaliation.

It is appropriate to raise pointed questions, through the voice of the doctors writing an open letter to Dr Fauci:

>>There is currently no recommended pharmacologic early outpatient treatment for individuals in the flu stage of the illness, correct?
It is true that COVID-19 is much more lethal than the flu for high-risk individuals such as older patients and those with significant comorbidities, correct?
Individuals with signs of early COVID-19 infection typically have a runny nose, fever, cough, shortness of breath, loss of smell, etc., and physicians send them home to rest, eat chicken soup etc., but offer no specific, targeted medications, correct?
These high-risk individuals are at high risk of death, on the order of 15% or higher, correct?
So just so we are clear—the current standard of care now is to send clinically stable symptomatic patients home, “with a wait and see” approach?
Are you aware that physicians are successfully using Hydroxychloroquine combined with Zinc and Azithromycin as a “cocktail” for early outpatient treatment of symptomatic, high-risk, individuals?
Have you heard of the “Zelenko Protocol,” for treating high-risk patients with COVID 19 as an outpatient?
Have you read Dr. Risch’s article in the American Journal of Epidemiology of the early outpatient treatment of COVID-19?
Are you aware that physicians using the medication combination or “cocktail” recommend use within the first 5 to 7 days of the onset of symptoms, before the illness impacts the lungs, or cytokine storm evolves?
Again, to be clear, your recommendation is no pharmacologic treatment as an outpatient for the flu—like symptoms in patients that are stable, regardless of their risk factors, correct?
Would you advocate for early pharmacologic outpatient treatment of symptomatic COVID-19 patients if you were confident that it was beneficial?
Are you aware that there are hundreds of physicians in the United States and thousands across the globe who have had dramatic success treating high-risk individuals as outpatients with this “cocktail?”
Are you aware that there are at least 10 studies demonstrating the efficacy of early outpatient treatment with the Hydroxychloroquine cocktail for high-risk patients — so this is beyond anecdotal, correct?
If one of your loved ones had diabetes or asthma, or any potentially complicating comorbidity, and tested positive for COVID-19, would you recommend “wait and see how they do” and go to the hospital if symptoms progress?
Even with multiple studies documenting remarkable outpatient efficacy and safety of the Hydroxychloroquine “cocktail,” you believe the risks of the medication combination outweigh the benefits?
Is it true that with regard to Hydroxychloroquine and treatment of COVID-19 infection, you have said repeatedly that “The Overwhelming Evidence of Properly Conducted Randomized Clinical Trials Indicate No Therapeutic Efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ)?”
But NONE of the randomized controlled trials to which you refer were done in the first 5 to 7 days after the onset of symptoms- correct?
All of the randomized controlled trials to which you refer were done on hospitalized patients, correct?
Hospitalized patients are typically sicker that outpatients, correct?
None of the randomized controlled trials to which you refer used the full cocktail consisting of Hydroxychloroquine, Zinc, and Azithromycin, correct?

While the University of Minnesota study is referred to as disproving the cocktail, the meds were not given within the first 5 to 7 days of illness, the test group was not high risk (death rates were 3%), and no zinc was given, correct?
Again, for clarity, the trials upon which you base your opinion regarding the efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine, assessed neither the full cocktail (to include Zinc + Azithromycin or doxycycline) nor administered treatment within the first 5 to 7 days of symptoms, nor focused on the high-risk group, correct?
Therefore, you have no basis to conclude that the Hydroxychloroquine cocktail when used early in the outpatient setting, within the first 5 to 7 days of symptoms, in high risk patients, is not effective, correct?
It is thus false and misleading to say that the effective and safe use of Hydroxychloroquine, Zinc, and Azithromycin has been “debunked,” correct? How could it be “debunked” if there is not a single study that contradicts its use?

Should it not be an absolute priority for the NIH and CDC to look at ways to treat Americans with symptomatic COVID-19 infections early to prevent disease progression?
The SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19 virus is an RNA virus. It is well-established that Zinc interferes with RNA viral replication, correct?
Moreover, is it not true that hydroxychloroquine facilitates the entry of zinc into the cell, is a “ionophore,” correct?
Isn’t also it true that Azithromycin has established anti-viral properties?
Are you aware of the paper from Baylor by Dr. McCullough et. al. describing established mechanisms by which the components of the “HCQ cocktail” exert anti-viral effects?

So- the use of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin (or doxycycline) and zinc, the “HCQ cocktail,” is based on science, correct?>>

Comments
Dr Tom Frieden: Where does the epidemic go from here? This modeling site has performed better than most, using solely deaths and machine learning. Nationally, Youyang Gu estimates there are 4.8 million people with Covid today—1 of every 78 people. The same site projects 211,500 deaths in the US by the end of October. Better care and newer treatment can decrease death rates (maybe: plasma and remdesivir early, steroids for some patients late). Even with a vaccine, the virus is here to stay. We need a comprehensive response that will minimize deaths and get to the new normal soon and as safely as possible. https://www.drtomfrieden.net/blogrhampton7
August 18, 2020
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Researchers at Case Western Reserve University have added to the growing body of understanding about how hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) is not a possible defense against COVID-19. Specifically, they found that HCQ is not effective in preventing COVID-19 in patients with lupus and rheumatoid arthritis (RA), suggesting a broader interpretation of HCQ as ineffective preventive medicine for the general population. Their findings were recently published in the Annals of the Rheumatic Diseases. “ Our study shows, with a large degree of confidence, that HCQ is ineffective as a preventive antiviral in people with SLE and/or RA taking drugs that suppress their immune system, putting them at greater risk. Given how the study was structured, one can make an educated extension that it is not effective in preventing COVID-19 in people without those conditions. It is not uncommon for something to show promise in the lab, and then prove ineffective in the more complex biological landscape of humans." Mendel Singer, PhD, MPH, lead author and associate professor and vice chair for education in the Department of Population & Quantitative Health Sciences at the Case Western Reserve School of Medicine https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200817/Hydroxychloroquine-is-not-a-possible-defense-against-COVID-19-study-shows.aspxrhampton7
August 18, 2020
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I believe they are seeing in the blood of those exposed to C19 and who have recovered that certain T-cells are present. They also examined blood donated from 2-3 years ago and found these same T-cells present in a high percentage of the samples. It may be these people who have the quick immutability to the virus. It is also apparently higher in some Asian countries that have low infection rates. One of the benefits from all this is that about 20 years ago all I heard was they know a lot about how to treat diseases that originate from a bacterium like substance but almost nothing about how to treat viruses except by palliative care. That may now be changing.jerry
August 17, 2020
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Or it could be that some people are just healthier than others.
Nearly all disease can be traced back to a nutritional deficiency. - Linus Pauling
ET
August 17, 2020
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ET - well, yes. I think that's the pattern that's generally observed, e.g. with 'flu epidemics. You could turn it around and say that people who catch SARS-Cov-2 are unlucky. So doctors should warn people to beware of braking mirrors and walking under ladders.Bob O'H
August 17, 2020
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Bob O'H- If they're just lucky then there are many millions of lucky people. Maybe doctors should be handing out 4-leaf clovers instead of medicine.ET
August 17, 2020
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Thanks, JerryET
August 17, 2020
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It would be nice if they can find out why people are naturally immune.
There is evidence that a substantial percentage of the population may have T-cells that inhibit the virus and have had them for years. Comment from a couple days ago https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/covid-19-and-the-need-for-skeptics-in-science/#comment-709640
The latest on Tcells from MedCram 101 https://bit.ly/31LjUVl As always MedCram is highly informative. Is inherent Tcell immunity what has been called the dark matter of the population that explains infections or infections that don’t progress very far? See interview with Karl Friston in early June. https://bit.ly/31FLiUK
This would explain why some in a family would not appear to get the virus. To be specific, they get the virus but it doesn't progress very far before being killed by the immune system. We tend to forget that the final elimination process is the immune system and not drugs such as HCQ and zinc or Ivermectin. However, if HCQ and Ivermectin prevent entry into the cell when used on a prophylactic basis, then technically these people do not ever get the virus. The Been video on the other thread has been very helpful.jerry
August 17, 2020
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ET @ 111 -
BUT there have been instances when one family member didn’t infect others in their household: Covid-19 pandemic: Not everyone in coronavirus-hit family prone to disease. It would be nice if they can find out why people are naturally immune.
Are they naturally immune or just lucky?Bob O'H
August 17, 2020
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KF@113, the polymerase process acts my multiplying DNA (or RNA) so that it is in concentrations high enough to be detected. But you are correct in that it can’t detect whether or not a person is infectious, only that they are infected. I’m not sure that the less sensitive test is more appropriate as the polymerase test has a high false negative rate due to the inconsistency in sampling. This being said, I think the test you mention may be better simply because it is quick.Mac McTavish
August 17, 2020
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ET & MMT, it seems that for some (many?), there is significant transfer of immunity from the common cold; likely depending on strains you have caught. We are also in a fuzzy zone between, injection of an agent, early replication, initial immune response, a-symptomatic, mild cases and stronger cases. Being infectious seems to be associated with symptomatic cases. Also, as was highlighted here in MNI, the polymerase tests amplify remnants that may persist for some time. That is part of why an argument was made to use a much cheaper, readily administered at home test [daily, pre-school/work tests in a few minutes to results] that picks up about an order of magnitude higher viral concentration, a more reasonable threshold, see here: https://uncommondescent.com/medicine/on-the-trajectory-of-covid-19-and-similar-diseases/ KFkairosfocus
August 17, 2020
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ET@111, it wasn’t clear from that article if the family members weren’t infected or if they just never showed symptoms. For example, I can’t remember ever having the flu (knock on wood), even though family members have and I assume that I have been exposed to others who have. Does this mean that I have a natural immunity or just that when I have been infected my symptoms were so minor that it never registered to me that I had the flu?Mac McTavish
August 16, 2020
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Mac @ 93- Good point about the flu. As for social distancing- In Massachusetts the rural areas have very few cases whereas the big cities and their suburbs have the bulk. The problem occurs when someone brings it home. BUT there have been instances when one family member didn't infect others in their household: Covid-19 pandemic: Not everyone in coronavirus-hit family prone to disease. It would be nice if they can find out why people are naturally immune.ET
August 16, 2020
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RHolt, all you are doing is manifesting the crooked yardstick principle. Once a crooked yardstick somehow becomes the accepted standard of straight, upright, accurate, then whatever does not conform will be dismissed. Where the kicker is, what genuinely is straight, accurate, upright cannot conform to crookedness. That too often includes denying the message of a plumb line, which is naturally straight and upright. You have dismissed actual facts [cf. OP, from Dr Raoult, regarding 3,000+ cases], you have disregarded the point that all evidence matters, you effectively disregard reasonable mechanisms on the table, you have refused to engage the questions being posed in the open letter. We now draw our own conclusions, in all prudence. KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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Jerry's recent citation to a news interview doesn't have much present to evaluate the research but the publication might be out soon. I did note this comment that was made:
We believe that HCQ acts on this very component of the disease rather than inhibiting viral replication.
He doesn't say why his team believe this is so but perhaps that is fleshed out in the manuscript. We'll have to wait and see.RHolt
August 16, 2020
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And more clinical studies on RCT are ongoing. Again, the need to know more continues, but not with Raoult and certainty not with KF. Plausible effects count as fact to him.rhampton7
August 16, 2020
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GCS, “ My original comment is about why there is no curiosity at all about HCQ. ” Not true. The reason there are RCTs on HCQ therapy is precisely because of curiosity. Doctors and scientists want to learn more about the virus and possible treatments. It’s people like KF who decided sometime in March or early April that HCQ was “proven” to be effective and thus no further was study required, and All the RCTs after that date must simply be wrong.rhampton7
August 16, 2020
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Another study showing HCQ has a positive effect. This makes about 50. Reduces death by 30% in hospitalized patients in Italy based on almost 3500 cases of C19. https://bit.ly/2PYoNF8
Q: What were the mortality rates in the hydroxychloroquine and control groups? A: The mortality rate of patients receiving hydroxychloroquine was 8.9 / 1000 patients / day, the mortality rate of those not receiving hydroxychloroquine was 15.7 / 1000 patients / day. Treatment was started on the first day of admission in most clinical centers, at a dose of 400 mg once a day, for an average duration of 10 days. 76% of patients were on HCQ treatment .
Of course they could have put many of those on HCQ on placebos to equal the numbers and killed more. It seems unfair that those who got HCQ had a better chance of living.jerry
August 16, 2020
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KF
there is adequate evidence and the correlation opf mechanisms and successful treatments speaks
As I pointed out others believe differently based on adequate evidence and demonstrated lack of efficacy. You reference zika and HCQ as a potential treatment. However, another virus, dengue, in the same family of virus and also a single-stranded RNA virus treatment with hydroxychloroquine has very limited benefit in treating this disease. In vitro data showed strong viral inhibition. However, HCQ-treated dengue patients showed no shortening duration of viremia, i.e., no anti-viral effect, but some benefit was observed on patient symptoms. However, upon cessation of HCQ symptoms rapidly returned in infected patients. This data, to me, suggests a different mode of action than anti-viral. This only demonstrates how imperative it is to use care and caution when speculating on what HCQ does and doesn't do as far as anti viral properties. here is one reference: A Randomized Controlled Trial of Chloroquine for the Treatment of Dengue in Vietnamese Adults
There is no available drug or vaccine against dengue, an acute viral disease that affects ?50 million people annually in tropical and sub-tropical countries. Chloroquine (CQ), a cheap and well-tolerated drug, inhibits the growth of dengue viruses in the laboratory with concentrations achievable in the body. To measure the antiviral efficacy of CQ in dengue, we conducted a study involving 307 adults with suspected dengue. Patients received a 3-day oral dosage of placebo or CQ early in their illness. Unfortunately, we did not see an effect of CQ on the duration of viral infection. We did, however, observe that CQ had a modest anti-fever effect. In patients treated with CQ, we observed a trend towards a lower incidence of dengue hemorrhagic fever, a severe form of dengue. We did not find any differences in the immune response that can explain this trend. We also found more adverse events, primarily vomiting, with CQ. This trial provides valuable new information on how to perform trials of antiviral drugs for dengue.
RHolt
August 16, 2020
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RH&, there is adequate evidence and the correlation opf mechanisms and successful treatments speaks. KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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KF
I rightly objected that I never argued such.
I disagree that you 'rightly'objected. No where in that quote is it directed at you. When I state that 'which might cause some to ask why the target was a general audience. further down your post you make this statement:
I infer that what you mean is you reject the described modes
which I could interpret as you making a straw man characterization of my position. However, I don't because I know you know that I am familiar with the invitro literature from which you are pulling much of your data. I might outright reject, or question plausibility in extending the in vitro findings to the in vitro situation but that is far from rejecting proposed mechanisms. there is the documentation in the literature and the question is 'can this be extrapolated to the intact organisms' and in many cases the answer is no, sometimes it is maybe, and occasionally it is yes! While I can appreciate your passion I suggest.a more charitable reading might be in order for our discussions. KF
For, it is known that cell based life has many processes in common.
sure nothing to disagree with there but how many of those processes are involved in viral replication. With that answer the field gets dramatically narrower. KF
So, the concept of pushing pH up is plausible, and that would affect activity.
this is not even in question. I've pointed to ET's reference on RA numerous times where the increase in pH in the lysosome, is the associated mechanism for its efficacy in treatment. However, this is a slow onset to action for this process as ET's reference highlights. KF
The indirect action of promoting Zn, with onward effects of Zn, should not be in serious dispute.
It certainly can be questioned. There is an abundance of zinc in cells already and while we see in vitro ionophore activity this has not been documented in vitro. then comes the next most obvious question of 'how much zinc is necessary?' to elicit an anti-viral response in vivo. There is literature references for taking zinc supplements, typically lozenges preferred, within the first 48 hrs of the onset of sore throat or potential cold but this affect diminishes dramatically after the 48 hr window. It is thought it is a 'surface effect' more than anything else. There is a knowledge gap here and it would be prudent to recognize the limitations of the claims. KF
More than enough that physicians should be able to prescribe off label use without fear or intimidation.
off label prescribing is ongoing with doctors even publicly proclaiming they are doing so. I am not aware of any action being taken against these doctors. KF
I put it to you that there are good reasons to see why HCQ based cocktails should work
And I and many many others think there is adequate evidence to question this premise....even the CEO of a company that produces HCQ is in this camp!RHolt
August 16, 2020
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RHolt, this is what you stated:
RHolt, 96: >>You will never find chloroquine used, or recommended, to treat viral diseases in fish which might cause some to ask why that is?>>
I rightly objected that I never argued such. In short, you directly implied a strawman. I pointed it out and responded, you suggest misinterpretation on my part. But in fact, what I discussed shouldn't even be controversial. For, it is known that cell based life has many processes in common. Further, we know that specific, minor mutations etc can and do blunt diseases that target particular species; sickle cell anemia is a classic example. But if something is hitting microorganisms at cross kingdom level, it is attacking life processes that are common. For instance, many disinfectants or fire do that. Illustrating, Chlorine bleach attacks fats and bonds in general through aggressive chemical action. So, for some time I have raised that question on HCQ. Linked, we know that viruses attack cells and hijack their processes, so agents that affect those processes in ways that slow down or stop replication will reduce intensity of a viral infection and will buy time for proper immune response. The fish tank cleaner effect leaves fish (notoriously delicate organisms) thriving, but kills crud across kingdoms. That points to manageable toxicity. And that in an agent known to work as a drug otherwise. In that context, the direct action modes tied to being a weak base make some sense. Which, are summarised in the OP and are explained (with pointers to underlying documentation in the linked). So, I "answered" your request early this morning, a matter that came up in discussion already. I infer that what you mean is you reject the described modes, which you will see come from the literature that is in play already. In an onward OP, I have added a comparative, the process for another RNA virus, W Nile. You will note the pH levels shown, which with one exception are somewhat acidic. So, the concept of pushing pH up is plausible, and that would affect activity. The indirect action of promoting Zn, with onward effects of Zn, should not be in serious dispute. I put it to you that there are good reasons to see why HCQ based cocktails should work, and when appropriately targetted, there is strong evidence from actual cases by hundreds and thousands that they do work and are responsibly safe enough to be manageable. More than enough that physicians should be able to prescribe off label use without fear or intimidation. That is all that was asked for, going back to March. What has happened instead is a sorry tale and history will not look kindly on us. KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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Rhampton Thank you for your comments. @90 - The comment quoted on Brazil is for hospitalized patients. That is not my recommendation or the recommendation of the Doctors asking that this be considered - Immediate treatment on an out patient basis, especially for any high risk patient. @92 - My original comment is about why there is no curiosity at all about HCQ. They can speculate about everything else. (I observed a similar problem in an article where Fauci was willing to talk about all the possible sociological reasons why Blacks might be more affected but there was no mention any possibility of underlying genetic issues. They can not even be talked about because they are not P.C.) Again, Thank you.GCS
August 16, 2020
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KF
where did I argue that HCQ is used to target viral diseases in fish?
You didn't and I never meant to imply that you did. My point is that you keep touting this 'multi level' effect and I was pointing out that the chloroquine treatment in fish has no anti-viral effects. KF
Of course, viruses hijack those processes so something that reduces effectiveness of hijack may well buy time for in-control immune response to do the actual work of destroying the infection.
I am not aware of any direct action of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine on any of the cellular processes that a virus utilizes for replication. Feel free to point me to this info I'd appreciate reading it! KF
However, I am sure you are aware that there is a general problem of need for antivirals
Yes, anti virals for most viral diseases are lacking. It is a difficult nut to crack. The most successful cases are with HIV and HepC. While not for COVID there is promise in the development of a universal flu vaccine that has merit and bears watching. KF
so the strawman is even more outrageous
You misinterpreted my comment or more likely I did not make myself clear enough. There was no attempt made to mischaracterize your position. If you read it that way I apologize for not being expressing myself clearer.RHolt
August 16, 2020
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PS: Let me again draw attention to what Dr Frieden put on the table nearly four years ago, clipping from the OP cite of his paper in NEJM:
Despite their strengths, RCTs have substantial limitations. Although they can have strong internal validity, RCTs sometimes lack external validity; generalizations of findings outside the study population may be invalid.2,4,6 RCTs usually do not have sufficient study periods or population sizes to assess duration of treatment effect (e.g., waning immunity of vaccines) or to identify rare but serious adverse effects of treatment, which often become evident during postmarketing surveillance and long-term follow-up but could not be practically assessed in an RCT. The increasingly high costs and time constraints of RCTs can also lead to reliance on surrogate markers that may not correlate well with the outcome of interest. Selection of high-risk groups increases the likelihood of having adequate numbers of end points, but these groups may not be relevant to the broader target populations. These limitations and the fact that RCTs often take years to plan, implement, and analyze reduce the ability of RCTs to keep pace with clinical innovations; new products and standards of care are often developed before earlier models complete evaluation. These limitations also affect the use of RCTs for urgent health issues, such as infectious disease outbreaks, for which public health decisions must be made quickly on the basis of limited and often imperfect available data. RCTs are also limited in their ability to assess the individualized effect of treatment, as can result from differences in surgical techniques, and are generally impractical for rare diseases. Many other data sources can provide valid evidence for clinical and public health action. Observational studies, including assessments of results from the implementation of new programs and policies, remain the foremost source, but other examples include analysis of aggregate clinical or epidemiologic data . . .
That is what you first need to face, then learn to refrain from the gold standard fallacy serving as pivot for undue dismissiveness. For example, Dr Raoult's results (tabulated in OP) are not a collection of unrelated anecdotes -- [fairy/fiction/one that got away] stories, in good Anglo Saxon words.kairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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RHolt, where did I argue that HCQ is used to target viral diseases in fish? Nowhere. I pointed out that cross-kingdom attacks on microorganisms points to attacks on core cell processes. Of course, viruses hijack those processes so something that reduces effectiveness of hijack may well buy time for in-control immune response to do the actual work of destroying the infection. However, I am sure you are aware that there is a general problem of need for antivirals, so the strawman is even more outrageous. What is on the table is a summary from work, on virus attack modes and on how HCQ may counter such. In turn, this fits with the pattern that early intervention with the cocktail, for the vulnerable leads to improved likelihood of a good outcome. People not in those groups don't have a lot of room for improvement compared to case fatality rates for the vulnerable on order of up to 15%. KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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KF
simply refusing to recognise that placebo controlled studies have weaknesses and limitations and should not be used as a pivot to selectively hyperskeptically dismiss other relevant evidence.
The other evidence, discarding anecdotes, are the retrospective studies which have an even greater number of weaknesses inherent in their basic design. It could also be considered to be selective hyperskepticism to discount RCT in favor of retrospective trials. Each trial needs to be assessed and evaluated on the design study and data analysis. Larger numbers don't mean much if the basic design is poor.RHolt
August 16, 2020
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Presumed attack modes does not necessarily mean actual attack modes
This has been repeatedly pointed out to KF. You will never find chloroquine used, or recommended, to treat viral diseases in fish which might cause some to ask why that is? Often chloroquine, and other anti-parasitic agents (formalin, malachite green, and salt) are recommended to treat sick fish, even if the agent is suspected as being viral in nature, simply because the diagnosis might be wrong and there is an the outside chance the etiology of the disease is parasitic and not viral. Perhaps the lack, actually the complete absence, of cholorquine use in aquaria and aquaculture treatment is a lack of efficacy in its use for treating viral disease but OK for protozoa infestations which have a known mechanism of action.RHolt
August 16, 2020
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RH7, actually, it seems the Frontline Doctors are following models such as the one for W Nile Virus discussed here in a follow up OP: https://uncommondescent.com/medicine/the-frontline-doctors-put-some-plausible-mechanisms-for-hydroxychloroquine-on-the-table/ Instead of dismissively sweeping off the table, you would be well advised to ponder that context. In that light, I suggest to you that you also seem to be simply refusing to recognise that placebo controlled studies have weaknesses and limitations and should not be used as a pivot to selectively hyperskeptically dismiss other relevant evidence. KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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An editorial published in The Lancet Infectious Diseases warned of the dangers of the COVID-19 “infodemic” and noted that the circulation of medical information beyond expert circles before it has been reviewed can be particularly dangerous. “Fake news, misinformation and conspiracy theories have become prevalent in the age of social media and have skyrocketed since the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic,” the authors wrote. “This situation is extremely concerning because it undermines trust in health institutions and programs.” Aaron E. Glatt, MD, chairman of the department of medicine and chief of infectious diseases at Mount Sinai South Nassau in Oceanside, New York, told Healio that physicians can help patients by discussing their concerns and reviewing how they receive medical information. He cited the conversation about hydroxychloroquine’s use as a COVID-19 treatment as a recent example of the rapid spread of COVID-19 misinformation. “The only good way to get medical information is to see the data published — I can assess it, and I can tell you ‘this is good’ or ‘this is garbage,’" Glatt said. “On social media, a person can videotape [himself or herself] and say, ‘I have the cure for everything under the sun — just take this,’ but they don't present any data. It excites tremendous amounts of interest in both the public and the lay press, but nobody is assessing it.” https://www.healio.com/news/infectious-disease/20200814/covid19-infodemic-persists-could-worsenrhampton7
August 16, 2020
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