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Insane Scaremongering on a Colossal Scale

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JVL:

If we take the CFR for COVID-19 to be 2% . . . it’s a low estimate . . . in order to exceed Barry‘s limit* of 200,000 deaths in the US there would have to be over 10 million cases in the US. Wikipedia says the 2019 estimated population of the US is about 328 million so that means about 3% of the population would have to be diagnosed. It’s impossible to say, now, of course, but I’d be inclined to think that it’s fairly likely that 3% of the US population will get infected. We’ll see . . . .

JVL says “it’s fairly likely that” around 3% of the US population of 328,000,000 will contract COVID 19, resulting in 10,000,000 cases. (The exact number is 3.0488%.) He also says that of those 10 million cases, the fatality rate (CFR) is likely to be at least 2%, resulting in over 200,000 deaths.

This is insane scaremongering on a grand scale.

And it is easy to demonstrate this. Right now, as I write this, China (population 1.386 BILLION) has had a total of 81,054 cases. See here. 72,440 of those have recovered. There are 5,353 active cases. 1,845 of those are “serious.” There have been 3,261 deaths.

Deaths per day in China peaked at 150 on February 23. On March 21, there were 6 deaths. New cases peaked at 14,108 on February 12. On March 21 there were 46.

Significantly, there have been ZERO new cases reported in Wuhan for the 4th day in a row.

Inescapable conclusion. The epidemic has nearly run its course in China.

Let’s do a little simple math. Total deaths in a country with a population of 1.386 BILLION will almost certainly be under 10,000, perhaps under 5,000. Total cases will probably be less than 100,000.

Why in the world would anyone believe that total deaths in a county with a population of 328 million will approach 200,000? For that to happen, there would have to be over 20 times the deaths in a population that is one-fourth the size.

Why in the world would anyone believe that total cases in a county with a population of 328 million will approach 10 million? For that to happen, there would have to be 100 times the cases in a population that is one-fourth the size.

________________

*I don’t know what JVL means by Barry’s limit of 200,000 deaths. Jim Thibodeau believes there will be over 200,000 deaths, not I. I believe there will be a fraction (probably a very tiny fraction) of 60,000 deaths, in other words, far fewer than the deaths caused by the flu last year.

Comments
LM & M62, it looks like 10% is a ballpark estimate for number of people with significant complications and a list of well known factors. Those, of course, are the cases that come to medical attention in relevant ways. Problem is, to get an apples to apples comparison with CV19. However, we have enough to see that something that is novel, highly contagious and prone to complications will be dangerous. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2020
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Latemarch: Do you really think that 10% of people that catch the flu die? No. But that's not the point. You said, "death rate will probably turn out to be in the 1% range." Based on what? Confirmed cases or all cases? We won't ever know anything but confirmed cases, so you have to compare that with confirmed influenza cases. You cannot compare all flu infections with all CV19 infections because we don't know how to estimate all CV19 cases, and probably won't know the total cases of infection will have been after this is over, since most people will either show little to moderate symptoms and probably won't get tested.mike1962
March 25, 2020
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@142 Ed George 1. 'Natural' Herd Immunity: immune system only. 2. 'Artificial' Herd Immunity: immune system + brain input (studying, going to a lab, creating the vaccine, distributing it = collaborating with lots of other humans/brains...) Am I right? :)Truthfreedom
March 25, 2020
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TF
What is the difference between ‘natural’ vaccines (herd immunity) and man-made vaccines?
That is simple. 'Natural' vaccines are what nut-job anti-vaccers tout instead of real vaccines. Herd immunity occurs when the probability of a person who is not immune not becoming infected because the people they come in contact with on a daily basis are immune, either through vaccines or through having been infected and recovered. For herd immunity to be effective, between 80 and 90% of people in the population (some say higher) must have immunity. Since there are some in society who cannot receive vaccines, I would prefer to obtain herd immunity through mandatory vaccinations than through the death of thousands.Ed George
March 25, 2020
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What is the difference between 'natural' vaccines (herd immunity) and man-made vaccines? Naturalists, please? :)Truthfreedom
March 25, 2020
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BA, very interesting. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2020
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@135 Orthomyxo
There is no evidence that SARS produces immunity to SARS-CoV-2
?? Neither is there evidence to the contrary. Right now, little amount of evidence and a lot of speculation. Very darwinian.Truthfreedom
March 25, 2020
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KF
The suggestions that in China cell phone accounts are used as a sort of police monitored social register, coupled to location-tracking ability, points to a possibility for very dangerous spying and control.
As the article I posted today notes, in Singapore the government is enforcing isolation by requiring people periodically to click an app on their phones that tells the government where they are. Sobering.Barry Arrington
March 25, 2020
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Vivid, Anyone who has ever received a text from their wife saying "Rodney Strong Alexander Valley, STAT!" knows just how essential those stores are.Barry Arrington
March 25, 2020
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OM, Though I do not endorse the ideas that there is existing herd immunity to some extent, it is true that this is described sometimes as SARS2. It is a related virus, but obviously given cellular mechanisms RNA viruses will mutate more rapidly than DNA ones, essentially at every individual reproduction event. Further to this, it is in the literature that there are already two strains, L and S, that can be separately caught. That raises the issue that the Spanish Flu event of 1918 had more than one wave and more than one strain, with the second apparently the most dangerous. In that light, it seems that we urgently need effective life-saving treatments and vaccinations, likely not just now but we may be seeing onward outbreaks in coming months or years. This is going to be a break in history, I think. Going forward, digital work, digital education, digital teleconferencing, digital interaction and digital cash are going to become far more established. Unfortunately, that means that digital surveillance will also go way up. The suggestions that in China cell phone accounts are used as a sort of police monitored social register, coupled to location-tracking ability, points to a possibility for very dangerous spying and control. Those are further issues and potential dangers we need to address going forward. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2020
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Bob Ryan,
As kairosfocus @ 67 pointed out, COVID-19 is a close relative to SARS. It’s actually called SARS 2 and it happens to be from the same family of the strain we’ve already been exposed to. When a virus of the same family enters a human host that has already been exposed, the immune system recognizes it and deals with it quickly. We have been studying viruses for a long time and know exactly what happens when an incident like COVID-19 occurs after going through COVID-2. It will be less lethal than influenza. There has never been a single instance where 2 viruses from the same family have reacted differently. Viruses are predictable.
Where did you get this information from. None of it is correct. SARS-CoV-2 is related to SARS, but not all that closely (it is, like most epidemic strains, a jump from animals to humans). There is no evidence that SARS produces immunity to SARS-CoV-2, and no reason to think it could. Even then, very few people were infected with SARS (about 10,000 ), so it would be no help. It's not true that viruses of the same family always produce immunity to each other. The process fo developing Flu vaccines should make this clear, as these are the same strains of virus every year, but nevertheless need to be adjusted to keep up with mutations in spike proteins and the strain dynamics in a given season. It's really not a good time to be spreading misinformation, so I encourage you to be a bit more skeptical about the information you share.orthomyxo
March 24, 2020
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EG “Thank God that they consider liquor and beer stores to be essential services. ????” Well then by golly “pass me a corona” Vividvividbleau
March 24, 2020
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And it is easy to demonstrate this. Right now, as I write this, China (population 1.386 BILLION) has had a total of 81,054 cases ... Why in the world would anyone believe that total cases in a county with a population of 328 million will approach 10 million?
This does not demonstrate what you may have hoped it would. Almost all of the cases in China were in Wuhan, a city with a population of only about 10 million. It's not likely that less than 3% of the US will be infected. Since you wrote this post on the 22nd, the number of known cases in the US has moved from 33,000 to 55,000. About a 33% day-on-day growth rate. If that rate was to continue, it would take a little more than a month to get to the point that known cases are at 3% of the US population. It's hard to know how many cases are not detected at the moment, I can't imagine it will be possible for less than 3% of the population to acquire the virus, but it is still possible to lessen the impact of the epidemic, if people can work together to break its transmission.orthomyxo
March 24, 2020
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In Ontario the government has ordered all non-essential businesses closed. Thank God that they consider liquor and beer stores to be essential services. :)Ed George
March 24, 2020
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R7, thank you for the updates. They are clearly showing that this is not just another flu. What scares me is that if our process is similar to China, we are still in the early stages of exponential growth. And the actions that China took to battle the virus were far greater than what we have.Ed George
March 24, 2020
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Southwest Georgia's Dougherty County continued to report the highest per capita numbers, according to the state Department of Public Health. Dr. Steven Kitchen, chief medical officer at Phoebe Putney Memorial Hospital in Albany, said during a televised briefing Tuesday that the hospital’s three ICUs are filled and the hospital improvised a fourth 10-bed unit for non-COVID-19 patients. He said that unit is full too, and that on Monday, doctors had to discharge ICU patients to make room for five patients with worsening conditions. “We continue to see an increase in the number of COVID-19 patients in our care,” Kitchen said. “We’re quickly approaching the point of maximum capacity. We need a relief valve.”rhampton7
March 24, 2020
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KF@110, interesting link about the use of chloroquine in the aquarium. It reminded me of a recent trend to use fluconazole, a fungicide, to control bryopsis, a type of macro algae, in the saltwater aquarium hobby. The point is that drugs used for one purpose often have other effects that they were not designed for. Viagra is another one.Ed George
March 24, 2020
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Newly released Louisiana Department of Health figures from Tuesday evening show that ICU bed capacity is lacking across the state. But it is particularly concerning in Orleans, Jefferson, St. Bernard and Plaquemines parishes, where coronavirus cases have been clustered and where just 15% of adult ICU beds are still available. In those parishes, there are 429 adult ICU beds total, while 65 are free. Louisiana’s COVID-19 death toll climbed to 46 on Tuesday, and the number of known coronavirus cases reached 1,338. Of those patients, 20% were hospitalized and 94 required ventilators.rhampton7
March 24, 2020
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Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms (D) said Tuesday that the city's intensive care units (ICUs) are at capacity and warned that hospitals in the area could also soon be maximized amid the coronavirus pandemic. "I suspect that at some point soon our hospitals may get near capacity," Bottoms told a local CBS affiliate. "While there are still beds available ... our ICU units are at capacity. This is why we have gone a step further in Atlanta and asked people to please stay home,"rhampton7
March 24, 2020
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EDTA, Agree. It's just an isolated data point. Uncertain as to what it means. Eventually there will be other data points that will hopefully allow the construction of a picture of what actually happened.Latemarch
March 24, 2020
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Officials with Beaumont said its eight Michigan hospitals have “some ventilator capacity” but are nearing that capacity. “We have been actively transferring COVID-19 patients within our system to other Beaumont hospitals, as appropriate, if one hospital has more capacity than another. However, across our system, we are facing limitations and nearing capacity with our staffing, personal protective equipment and mechanical ventilators,” Beaumont Health Chief Operating Officer Carolyn Wilson said. “We are taking steps to increase our capacity, such as converting some of our operating rooms into intensive care units.”rhampton7
March 24, 2020
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OK Gov. Kevin Stitt on Tuesday ordered non-essential businesses to shut down and directed elderly and medically vulnerable people to stay indoors until April 30 as the number of coronavirus cases in the state continued to climb. The number of cases climbed to 109 on Tuesday, but because of a shortage of testing supplies and few tests being administered, Stitt said he believes the actual number is closer to 500. “They’re going to get into the thousands,” he warned.rhampton7
March 24, 2020
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LateMarch, Regarding the article on Chinese cell phone user numbers, shouldn't that title have read "Chinese cell phone accounts"? Did China admit that those dead accounts were due to dead users? I read the article, and it tries to make the case that cell phone accounts are always tied to real people and they can't just ditch or cancel them. But any database that has been in use for any length of time has stale data in it that occasionally gets purged. Also governments releasing data occasionally change the definition of something, which can suddenly change a released statistic. The article does not dig deeper than the surface statistic. Things could be *that* bad, but I want more evidence.EDTA
March 24, 2020
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400,000 out of 7,800,000,000ET
March 24, 2020
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COVID-19 cases surpassed 400,000 worldwide on Tuesday, while U.S. cases topped 50,000 as the virus spreads more rapidly across the world.rhampton7
March 24, 2020
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Vivid:
Someone ingests anything you buy from a fish store was never intended to live long.
Even goldfish and guppies? Were you ever in college? ;)ET
March 24, 2020
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It looks like the Mediterranean diet doesn't do anything to stop covid 19. The hugging and kissing culture needs to stop, temporarily at least, or it will wipe itself out.ET
March 24, 2020
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We need more tests! So they can keep the body count scare going.buffalo
March 24, 2020
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Barry What we are witnessing in our media is beyond belief. For instance I was literally watching an interview with the FDA commissioner talking about a subject regarding drugs that might be helpful and being texted a report by news sources that were totally at odds as to what I was hearing coming out of his mouth!! It’s like “ don’t believe your own eyes” These people are wicked and the hatred for Trump is at insane levels. Vividvividbleau
March 24, 2020
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Vivid, And glue and paint and . . . :-)Barry Arrington
March 24, 2020
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