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Insane Scaremongering on a Colossal Scale

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JVL:

If we take the CFR for COVID-19 to be 2% . . . it’s a low estimate . . . in order to exceed Barry‘s limit* of 200,000 deaths in the US there would have to be over 10 million cases in the US. Wikipedia says the 2019 estimated population of the US is about 328 million so that means about 3% of the population would have to be diagnosed. It’s impossible to say, now, of course, but I’d be inclined to think that it’s fairly likely that 3% of the US population will get infected. We’ll see . . . .

JVL says “it’s fairly likely that” around 3% of the US population of 328,000,000 will contract COVID 19, resulting in 10,000,000 cases. (The exact number is 3.0488%.) He also says that of those 10 million cases, the fatality rate (CFR) is likely to be at least 2%, resulting in over 200,000 deaths.

This is insane scaremongering on a grand scale.

And it is easy to demonstrate this. Right now, as I write this, China (population 1.386 BILLION) has had a total of 81,054 cases. See here. 72,440 of those have recovered. There are 5,353 active cases. 1,845 of those are “serious.” There have been 3,261 deaths.

Deaths per day in China peaked at 150 on February 23. On March 21, there were 6 deaths. New cases peaked at 14,108 on February 12. On March 21 there were 46.

Significantly, there have been ZERO new cases reported in Wuhan for the 4th day in a row.

Inescapable conclusion. The epidemic has nearly run its course in China.

Let’s do a little simple math. Total deaths in a country with a population of 1.386 BILLION will almost certainly be under 10,000, perhaps under 5,000. Total cases will probably be less than 100,000.

Why in the world would anyone believe that total deaths in a county with a population of 328 million will approach 200,000? For that to happen, there would have to be over 20 times the deaths in a population that is one-fourth the size.

Why in the world would anyone believe that total cases in a county with a population of 328 million will approach 10 million? For that to happen, there would have to be 100 times the cases in a population that is one-fourth the size.

________________

*I don’t know what JVL means by Barry’s limit of 200,000 deaths. Jim Thibodeau believes there will be over 200,000 deaths, not I. I believe there will be a fraction (probably a very tiny fraction) of 60,000 deaths, in other words, far fewer than the deaths caused by the flu last year.

Comments
PS: I think we need to ponder sigmoid, cumulative effect saturating growth curves. Here is a good start to thinking about trends https://mindmatters.ai/2019/10/dont-leave-home-without-these-three-curves/kairosfocus
March 23, 2020
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RH7, nope, as discussed on analysis of a graph in my chloroquine thread, epidemics spread locally on contact forces so we are seeing multiple outbreaks, each subject to saturation. The issue is to use distancing and emerging effective treatments to reduce spreading, growth and fatal outcomes. KFkairosfocus
March 23, 2020
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“The pandemic is accelerating,” he said. “It took 67 days from the first reported case to reach the first 100,000 cases, 11 days for the second 100,000 and just four days for the third 100,000.”rhampton7
March 23, 2020
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You have to marry your first cousin and posit a Designer mimic to be respected. But respect from st**id adults that love creation tales is not worth having.Truthfreedom
March 23, 2020
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KF@42, I honestly hope that chloroquine proves to be effective. But my fear is that Trump will ease isolation rules once he announces the availability of this as a routine treatment. Long before it’s efficacy has been demonstrated.Ed George
March 23, 2020
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Jawa
Off topic: are you the writer Edward Feser in the blog you link to?
Has he commented anything on topic? And, no. He is not Feser. Feser is a respected philosopher, even though I disagree with him often. There is no way that TF could be respected as a philosopher. Unless he only posts here when he is drunk. :)Ed George
March 23, 2020
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Mike1962 In the USA, Influenza death rate of confirmed cases runs at about 10%. The CDC makes an estimation (re: guess) of the actual cases to get the low, low death rate. We must compare apples to apples in CV19 analysis. So far, the death rate of confirmed cases of CV19 in USA (1.18%) is much lower than the confirmed cases of influenza (10%).
There is no apples to apples comparison available. The CDC estimates because hardly anyone tests for influenza. The test is easy and readily available but why run up the bill when everyone already knows what it is. That's why the confirmed is so high because so few doctors bother to confirm. Stop and consider. Do you really think that 10% of people that catch the flu die?Latemarch
March 23, 2020
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@47 Angraecum
And also be aware that physical distancing and hand washing are much more supported than any pharmaceutical intervention right now.
Who are we to counteract 'natural' selection?Truthfreedom
March 23, 2020
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Of course our responses change the outcome. The are no good pharmaceutical responses now, and the evidence for chloroquine is quite poor (a badly controlled open label trial on a small sample). Perhaps the treatments will limit the disease, but should understand what will happen if we don't fight it. And also be aware that physical distancing and hand washing are much more supported than any pharmaceutical intervention right now.Angraecum
March 23, 2020
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AN, are you factoring in the likely impact of an effective treatment? Etc? Models and scenarios are one thing, actual reality another. Where, we have strong indicators, not just that there are effective treatments likely to come in fairly rapidly but that a high fraction of actual as opposed to serious cases are mild or even "asymptomatic." That means that a good part of this is that the matter is novelty, which always amplifies perceived risk. KFkairosfocus
March 23, 2020
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Barry, do you want to adress my post in #23, I think it makes it clear where your calculations are going wrong. Less than 5,000 is extraordinarily optimistic estimate.Angraecum
March 23, 2020
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JVL
"Which values (i.e. numbers) in my post do you find at fault?"
Did you even read the post JVL? Because if you did, you wouldn't have to ask that question.
"I wasn’t trying to “scare monger."
Liar. Predicting 200,000 deaths when the actual number will almost certainly be less than 5,000 is the definition of scaremongering.Barry Arrington
March 23, 2020
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Since my post was an impetuous for this thread I’d just like to ask: Which values (i.e. numbers) in my post do you find at fault? My use of 2% for the mortality rate was based on the discussion on worldometers.info. AND I was just responding to a reply from Barry, I wasn’t trying to “scare monger “. I’d rather discuss the data.JVL
March 23, 2020
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Latemarch: That said, death rate will probably turn out to be in the 1% range. Worse than influenza but no where near the 3% seen in Italy. In the USA, Influenza death rate of confirmed cases runs at about 10%. The CDC makes an estimation (re: guess) of the actual cases to get the low, low death rate. We must compare apples to apples in CV19 analysis. So far, the death rate of confirmed cases of CV19 in USA (1.18%) is much lower than the confirmed cases of influenza (10%).mike1962
March 23, 2020
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Barry Arrington, You're very welcome!jawa
March 23, 2020
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Truthfreedom, "Materialism’s nightmare." - yes, I agree. Off topic: are you the writer Edward Feser in the blog you link to?jawa
March 23, 2020
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Thank you Jawa.Barry Arrington
March 23, 2020
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@35 Jawa:
As an analogy, fMRI and EEG results don’t reveal our thoughts, plans, desires, beliefs. fMRI and EEG results are simply pieces of information used to resolve the easy problem of consciousness.
Materialism's nightmare. Thank you Jawa :)Truthfreedom
March 23, 2020
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Barry, people are right not to trust China's statistics: Rewriting the History of COVID-19. Heather Zeiger: Making the government the improbable hero of the tale. But the epidemic may well be petering out there anyway. Most statistics worldwide are pure guff or scaremongering and many fail to capture significant facts. Dr. John Ioannidis is quite right to be concerned about the collateral damage of COVID craziness. Many of the useful things that won't be happening may be necessary for someone's health, safety, or well-being. Canada's death toll stands at 13, mainly elderly and infirm, people but the panic meter is through the roof. Jonathan Bartlett thinks we will never go back to the pre-COVID-19 workplace: The virus forced us to realize: Staying together apart has never been so easyNews
March 23, 2020
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Next please? :)jawa
March 23, 2020
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Jim Thibodeau @19: "you should compare that to the big evolution sites, like evolution.berkeley.edu, or Nature" 1. What do you mean by "that"? 2. What kind of comparison are you having in mind? Alexa stats? 3. Your example "evolution.berkeley.edu" does not seem to be analyzed by Alexa stats at least not the free Alexa stats that I have access to. 4. What Alexa stats analyzes is "berkeley.edu" which I would rather compare to other ".edu" websites. 5. See the post @33 addressed to BA and note the website acronyms listed within []. Those are other websites of this list that are somehow related to the given website according to Alexa stats. 6. Your examples don't seem to meet the requirement described in the preceding point 5. 7. As I have explained before to other folks here, you're trying to compare apples and alligators. Please, note that the information Alexa rank stats provide does not tell us much about the quality of the information posted in the referenced websites. However, some of us may find it interesting. As an analogy, fMRI and EEG results don't reveal our thoughts, plans, desires, beliefs. fMRI and EEG results are simply pieces of information used to resolve the easy problem of consciousness.jawa
March 23, 2020
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Jim Thibodeau @19: I don't think I understand your point well enough to comment on it. Please, would you mind to clarify it? Thanks.jawa
March 23, 2020
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Barry Arrington @18: Alexa rank: EN:………..223,333…..1%....../Evolution News [TO, UD] TO:………424,320….1%....../Talk Origins [EN] UD:………550,194…..1%....../Uncommon Descent [EN, TSZ] SW:………765,278…..1%....../SandWalk Dr L. Moran [UD] PT:…….2,994,761…..3%....../Panda's Thumb [UD] TSZ:….5,435,542….6%....../The Skeptical Zone [UD, PS] PS:…. [still off radar]....../Peaceful Science [TSZ] Shown in [] is the list of other websites of this list that are somehow related to the given website according to Alexa stats The % are based on the top 100M active websitesjawa
March 23, 2020
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Sorry, link broken trying again hereLatemarch
March 23, 2020
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Best tracking site I've found to date here.Latemarch
March 23, 2020
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In favor of Barry's OP is Evidence Over Hysteria by Aaron Ginn a numbers guy.Latemarch
March 23, 2020
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Hey Barry, I hope that this is not true....but China stopped testingLatemarch
March 23, 2020
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JT, your persistent oppositional presence itself shows you know this blog has an influence effect that you seek to counter; from the days of Samballat et al, belittling is one of those ways to oppose. Whether or not you like it, we are here to discuss a serious matter and issues connected to the design view of reality are highly relevant. Indeed, that bleeds over into the issues of first duties and policy making, also media and education; first duties directly connects to rational responsibility and human freedom thus the nature of the roots of reality. There is a common pattern of issues at work that is all too familiar to us. KFkairosfocus
March 23, 2020
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Folks, there is another thread here on a material factor being overlooked. We have in hand a treatment that has been so promising that many physicians are taking efficacy as a given and are prescribing off label, so to speak; I have seen odds that not 1 in 10k cases would the results be by chance for the key cocktail, hydrochloroquine and z-pac. The potential to produce dozens of millions of doses per week is well in hand, as this is a generic long since. As of this time, the likelihood of a breakout of serious cases to cause deaths on the relevant scale is now low. If we mange the pandemic promptly and prudently. We must also balance averting an economic downspiral into depression. But, we cannot treat this as nothing, no more than the common cold or flu; a highly contagious, deadly virus to which we have minimal immunity as it is novel. KFkairosfocus
March 23, 2020
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@24 Belfast:
Jim Thib How many read this blog? One too many, at least/.
My thoughts. Maybe Jim Thibodeau should go visit his macro-evolved auto-matic mom. :) That is the darwinian thing to do.Truthfreedom
March 23, 2020
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