Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Intelligent Design and the Demarcation Problem

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One common objection which is often raised regarding the proposition of real design (as opposed to design that is only apparent) is the criticism that design is unable to be falsified by the ruthless rigour of empirical scrutiny. Science, we are told, must restrict its explanatory devices to material causes. This criterion of conformity to materialism as a requisite for scientific merit is an unfortunate consequence of a misconstrual of the principal of uniformitarianism with respect to the historical sciences. Clearly, a proposition – if it is to be considered properly scientific – must constrict its scope to categories of explanation with which we have experience. It is this criterion which allows a hypothesis to be evaluated and contrasted with our experience of that causal entity. Explanatory devices should not be abstract, lying beyond the scope of our uniform and sensory experience of cause-and-effect.

This, naturally, brings us on to the question of what constitutes a material cause. Are all causes, which we have experience with, reducible to the material world and the interaction of chemical reactants? It lies as fundamentally axiomatic to rationality that we be able to detect the presence of other minds. This is what C.S. Lewis described as “inside knowledge”. Being rational agents ourselves, we have an insider’s knowledge of what it is to be rational – what it is to be intelligent. We know that it is possible for rational beings to exist and that such agents leave behind them detectable traces of their activity. Consciousness is a very peculiar entity. Consciousness interacts with the material world, and is detectable by its effects – but is it material itself? I have long argued in favour of substance dualism – that is, the notion that the mind is itself not reducible to the material and chemical constituents of the brain, nor is it reducible to the dual forces of chance and necessity which together account for much of the other phenomena in our experience. Besides the increasing body of scientific evidence which lends support to this view, I have long pondered whether it is possible to rationally reconcile the concept of human autonomy (free will) and materialistic reductionism with respect to the mind. I have thus concluded that free will exists (arguing otherwise leads to irrationality or reductio ad absurdum) and that hence materialism – at least with respect to the nature of consciousness – must be false if rationality is to be maintained.

My reasoning can be laid out as follows:

1: If atheism is true, then so is materialism.

2: If materialism is true, then the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

3: If the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain, then human autonomy and consciousness are illusory because our free choices are determined by the dual forces of chance and necessity.

4: Human autonomy exists.

From 3 & 4,

5: Therefore, the mind is not reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

From 2 & 5,

6: Therefore, materialism is false.

From 1 & 6,

7: Therefore, atheism is false.

Now, where does this leave us? Since we have independent reason to believe that the mind is not reducible to material constituents, materialistic explanations for the effects of consciousness are not appropriate explanatory devices. How does mind interact with matter? Such a question cannot be addressed in terms of material causation because the mind is not itself a material entity, although in human agents it does interact with the material components of the brain on which it exerts its effects. The immaterial mind thus interacts with the material brain to bring about effects which are necessary for bodily function. Without the brain, the mind is powerless to bring about its effects on the body. But that is not to say that the mind is a component of the brain.

We have further independent reason to expect a non-material cause when discussing the question of the origin of the Universe. Being an explanation for the existence of the natural realm itself – complete with its contingent natural laws and mathematical expressions – natural law, with which we have experience, cannot be invoked as an explanatory factor without reasoning in a circle (presupposing the prior existence of the entity which one is attempting to account for). When faced with explanatory questions with respect to particular phenomena, then, the principle of methodological materialism breaks down because we possess independent philosophical reason to suppose the existence of a supernatural (non-material) cause.

Material causes are uniformly reducible to the mechanisms and processes of chance (randomness) and necessity (law). Since mind is reducible to neither of those processes, we must introduce a third category of explanation – that is, intelligence.

When we look around the natural world, we can distinguish between those objects which can be readily accounted for by the dual action of chance and necessity, and those that cannot. We often ascribe such latter phenomena to agency. It is the ability to detect the activity of such rational deliberation that is foundational to the ID argument.

Should ID be properly regarded as a scientific theory? Yes and no. While ID theorists have not yet outlined a rigorous scientific hypothesis as far as the mechanistic process of the development of life (at least not one which has attracted a large body of support), ID is, in its essence, a scientific proposition – subject to the criteria of empirical testability and falsifiability. To arbitrarily exclude such a conclusion from science’s explanatory toolkit is to fundamentally truncate a significant portion of reality – like trying to limit oneself to material processes of randomness and law when attempting to explain the construction of a computer operating system.

Since rational deliberation characteristically leaves patterns which are distinguishable from those types of patterns which are left by non-intelligent processes, why is design so often shunned as a non-scientific explanation – as a ‘god-of-the-gaps’ style argument? Assuredly, if Darwinism is to be regarded as a mechanism which attempts to explain the appearance of design by non-intelligent processes (albeit hitherto unsuccessfully), it follows by extension that real design must be regarded as a viable candidate explanation. To say otherwise is to erect arbitrary parameters of what constitutes a valid explanation and what doesn’t. It is this arbitrarily constraints on explanation which leads to dogmatism and ideology – which, I think, we can all agree is not the goal or purpose of the scientific enterprise.

Comments
Mark (#343): I have tried to express my views as clearly as possible in my previous posts. I will repeat the essence here. To prove determinism, you shoud demonstrate that, given the circumstances before an action, that action and only that action was possible. If anybody can do that, I will believe in determinism (but not in compatibilism: I will simply believe that I am a complete automaton). What I believe, instead, is that givene all the previous circumstances which act on an agent (both outer and inner), a certain range of actions, even only slightly different, is possible. The origin of tfhose different possible actions is always in a range of different (even slightly) possible inner reactions to the pre-existing circumstamces. That's what I call "choice", or "free will". You may say that such a choice would be irrational, or random, or void of value. I say that such a choice cannot be explained in conventional rational terms of cause and effect, because it comes from the transcendental self which cannot be understood in those terms. But that does not mean that the choice has no moral value: on the contrary, the choice consist exactly in a moral "alignment" or "disalignment" with a deep intuition which the self has of what is true and good. It is a choice which is at the same time of cognition and feeling (or probably, beyond both). And it can change our personal destiny for good or for bad, especially through the repeated exertion of good or bad choices.gpuccio
August 20, 2010
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---aiguy: "Fair enough: “Nature” here means “anything that is NOT the product of HUMAN activity.” OK. That is a good, precise definition. That would mean, however, that both the human mind, which many believe to be non-material, and the human brain, which is obviously material, are both natural. Thus, if an ancient hunter constructs aStephenB
August 20, 2010
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Aig,
Well, I don’t think we would know at all – I think we would form a hypothesis. In order to think of this as justified by empirical evidence, we’d have to investigate further. If the signal came from a planet that appeared to be habitable to life that would count as evidence for our hypothesis; if the signal came from inside a star, that would count against it. (SETI/astrobiological papers already discuss these sorts of things)."
My question was how would you know if you recieved a signal that "looks like a life form sent it"?
"We in AI don’t have any need to define this general descriptive term, because we aren’t trying to say that it is a scientific concept at all. It is just what we call our discipline"
Again, my question was how would this person know what you were referring to?Upright BiPed
August 20, 2010
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aiguy: It is not tautological to define fsci-production as an aspect of intelligence, nor to conclude that fsci-production requires intelligence. One might argue that intelligence is poorly defined overall, but fsci cannot be accomplished, insofar as we know, without teleological decision-making; it's the hallmark of fsci, it's definining characteristic - functionally specified complex information - information that is specified for a particular function that cannot be arrived at without consideration of the target function being applied to the design process. That is how humans achieve FSCI-rich designs; they consider the target function and purposefully arrange materials to acquire the target. No other search mechanism is known to produce FSCI-rich outupt. I don't think it's reasonable to quibble that this necessarily teleological, purposeful, goal-oriented manipulation of materials and processes cannot be defined at least as one aspect of intelligence, even if it is not a comprehensive definition. Thus, since the only thing we currently know produces such FSCI is FSCI-rich intelligent organisms (ourselves); whereas other FSCI-rich organisms, that don't appear to be as "intelligent", or intelligent at all (even if poorly defined) when compared to humans, do not produce FSCI-rich product. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that since humans are apparently the only reliable, consistent producers of FSCI-rich product out of tens of millions of species of FSCI-rich organisms, and unless one wishes to quibble terms, the significant difference between humans and those other animals is our intelligence-based ability to produce FSCI-rich product; and since FSCI-rich organisms cannot be their own explanation, then it is reasoable to at least provisionally conclude that FSCI-producing intelligence **might** necessarily exist somehwer besides in FSCI-rich organisms. None of that is "tautological"; it is reasonable to infer that the production of FSCI, at least in the case of humans, requires intelligence; and it is reasonable to causally connect it to intelligence; it is reasonable to infer that the presence of intelligence is more important than just the presence of FSCI-rich biology (tens of millions of apparently unintelligent species); it is reasonable to infer that FSCI-rich, intelligent organisms cannot create themselves, pop into existence ex nihilo, and to not refer to infinite regress; it is therefore reasonable theorize that FSCI-producing intelligence must exist somewhere besides in FSCI-rich biology, which makes ID a reasonable theory even if one works from the "regress" argument that it must be suitable for explanation of the first FSCI-rich organism in the universe.William J. Murray
August 20, 2010
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MathGrrl: The ability to digest citrate that evolved during Lenski’s long-running experiment seems to contradict your claim. Why do you think it does not? I will just mention what Behe says: "In his new paper Lenski reports that, after 30,000 generations, one of his lines of cells has developed the ability to utilize citrate as a food source in the presence of oxygen. (E. coli in the wild can’t do that.) Now, wild E. coli already has a number of enzymes that normally use citrate and can digest it (it’s not some exotic chemical the bacterium has never seen before). However, the wild bacterium lacks an enzyme called a “citrate permease” which can transport citrate from outside the cell through the cell’s membrane into its interior. So all the bacterium needed to do to use citrate was to find a way to get it into the cell. The rest of the machinery for its metabolism was already there. As Lenski put it, “The only known barrier to aerobic growth on citrate is its inability to transport citrate under oxic conditions.” (1) Other workers (cited by Lenski) in the past several decades have also identified mutant E. coli that could use citrate as a food source. In one instance the mutation wasn’t tracked down. (2) In another instance a protein coded by a gene called citT, which normally transports citrate in the absence of oxygen, was overexpressed. (3) The overexpressed protein allowed E. coli to grow on citrate in the presence of oxygen. It seems likely that Lenski’s mutant will turn out to be either this gene or another of the bacterium’s citrate-using genes, tweaked a bit to allow it to transport citrate in the presence of oxygen. (He hasn’t yet tracked down the mutation.)" Have you any new information to show that the mutation in Lenski's work was complex? IOW, that the changes in AA sequence required for the function change were of higher complexity than a reasonable threshold? (I don't require Dembski's UPB. For me, 10^-40 would be enough. I always try to be generous with my interlocutors).gpuccio
August 20, 2010
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molch: So, in your opinion, the ability to digest Nylon is the same “function” as the ability to resist Penicillin? Do you realize that that is about as absurd as claiming that a horse’s ability to digest grass is the same function as it’s ability to kick a mountain lion in the head? You are simply wrong. Both molecules are esterases, and share the same fold: "Mutational analysis of 6-aminohexanoate-dimer hydrolase: Relationship between nylon oligomer hydrolytic and esterolytic activities" Taku Ohkia, Yoshiaki Wakitania, Masahiro Takeoa, Kengo Yasuhiraa, Naoki Shibatab, Yoshiki Higuchib, Seiji Negoroa FEBS Letters 580 (2006) 5054–5058 "Based upon the following findings, we propose that the nylon oligomer hydrolase has newly evolved through amino acid substitutions in the catalytic cleft of a pre-existing esterase with the b-lactamase-fold". Moreover, your criteria for the existence of CSI would mean that your composition of an english sentence requires no CSI, because it has the same function as a french sentence, and the difference of any particular sentence you composed from at least one of all the other english sentences in existence before this one is vastly above the threshold of complexity for CSI. Excuse my obvious dumbness, but I really can't understand what you mean here. Could you please clarify?gpuccio
August 20, 2010
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William,
That’s a really good argument. You’ve made some really good points worth further consideration, and I appreciate your time and patient responses.
Thanks very much!
I see your point; from your perspective, we have no good reason to consider intelligence to be transferrable outside of complex biology we find our only tangible example in;
Yes, part of the problem with ID is its failure to provide an empirically-grounded definition of "intelligence". The other problem is that if they really are talking about human-like minds including conscious awareness, then it does not follow from the evidence at hand that any such thing can exist without the complex physical information processing mechanisms we see in biological systems.
I think the weak link in your argument is the idea that we do not have good or sufficient reason to suspect (for the purpose of justifying ID theory for the origin of life in our universe, not just human life) that FSCI-producing intelligence is, or can be, an extra-biological phenomena.
I really do have an open mind regarding what might be conscious... perhaps computers will someday be conscious and perhaps not - I think that is an open question. And perhaps disembodied immaterial mind exists too; I just don't know. I don't say these things are impossible, but I do object to ID's rhetorical tricks that obscure the fact that these are precisely the questions that ID needs to address, rather than (as folks like Stephen Meyer says) simply inferring a cause already known to us as the cause of first life. That just isn't true at all.
I think we can find one such “good reason”, which you supplied yourself when you said: —————- “In our constant, uniform, and repeated experience, FSCI is produced by complex physical FSCI-rich organisms. You may imagine that something else is capable of producing FSCI, but you have no scientific evidence of such a thing. ———————- Yet … what produced complex, physical, FSCI-rich organisms, if the only thing that can produce such FSCI is the thing itself?
The answer is currently this: We do not know.
So, “something else”, besides “complex, physical, FSCI-rich organisms” must in fact be capable of producing FSCI-rich product. On that, we must agree.
I suppose; else maybe FSCI exists eternally, or maybe there is an infinite number of universes so that an infinite number of them contains astronomically improbably FSCI... or...
It cannot be a reasonable conclusion, then, that FSCI is generated only by complex organisms (recursive problem).
It would seem to be the case, yes... unless perhaps infinite regressions actually do exist...
Since the ability to produce FSCI is a definitionally intelligent process,
???? No. If you define "intelligent" as "that which produces FSCI", then as I've shown, ID is reduced to a vacuous tautology (FSCI is produced by that which produces FSCI). No, you need another way to define intelligence in order to make this a synthetic rather than an analytic proposition (that is, in order to make a statement about the world rather than just a statement about the meaning of the word "intelligence").
... then intelligence (at least to the degree that is required to produce FSCI product above 1000 bits) **must** exist outside of complex organisms, unless one wishes to refer to infinite regress.
What do you mean by "intelligence" in that sentence? If all you mean is "able to produce FSCI", then you really are arguing a very tight circle: You define intelligence to mean "that which produces FSCI", and then you explain FSCI by appeal to "intelligence".
Thus, we have logically concluded that intelligence to the degree that it is defined as the ability to produce levels of FSCI over 1000 bits must in fact exist outside of complex biological organisms, or else complex, FSCI-rich organisms wouldn’t exist.
I do agree (modulo the possibility of infinite universes, infinite regress, or eternal FSCI). But I strongly object to the use of the word "intelligence" if all you mean is "whatever creates FSCI", because "intelligence" has so many other connotations (including "consciousness", which most people - like gpuccio here - do associate with intelligence). It is exactly this confusion - this equivocation - that makes ID so difficult to debate. The authors of ID have done a fine job in creating a way of talking about these things that obscure these implications and commitments.aiguy
August 20, 2010
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UB,
AIGUY: If we get some signal that looks like a life form sent it, we could tentatively infer some life form was behind it UB: Again, how would you know? Well, I don't think we would know at all - I think we would form a hypothesis. In order to think of this as justified by empirical evidence, we'd have to investigate further. If the signal came from a planet that appeared to be habitable to life that would count as evidence for our hypothesis; if the signal came from inside a star, that would count against it. (SETI/astrobiological papers already discuss these sorts of things).
…and if somebody asks what we mean by “intelligence” we just say “you know, whatever you might call ‘intelligent’ if you saw a human being do it”. Again, how could this person possibly know to what you are referring
That's just the point: We in AI don't have any need to define this general descriptive term, because we aren't trying to say that it is a scientific concept at all. It is just what we call our discipline, and our discipline studies how to make computer systems which have the same sorts of abilities we see in humans and other animals. (Things like visual recognition, speech recognition, natural language understanding, planning and scheduling, and so forth).
aiguy
August 20, 2010
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gpuccio: "Nylonase, for instance, is only a small variation of penicillinase. All these models are similar to those of antibiotic resistance, and no CSI is created in them, because the function is the same and the variation is vastly above the threshold of complexity for CSI." So, in your opinion, the ability to digest Nylon is the same "function" as the ability to resist Penicillin? Do you realize that that is about as absurd as claiming that a horse's ability to digest grass is the same function as it's ability to kick a mountain lion in the head? Moreover, your criteria for the existence of CSI would mean that your composition of an english sentence requires no CSI, because it has the same function as a french sentence, and the difference of any particular sentence you composed from at least one of all the other english sentences in existence before this one is vastly above the threshold of complexity for CSI.molch
August 20, 2010
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Gpuccio - I don't normally do this to you but I really would like to know the answer to the question I asked above. Given the scenario I outlined ...Suppose you went through exactly the mental processes of making a decision that you do at the moment and someone demonstrated how it was caused. Would this suddenly mean that you were not exercising true free will but only had the illusion?markf
August 20, 2010
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aiguy: That's a really good argument. You've made some really good points worth further consideration, and I appreciate your time and patient responses. I see your point; from your perspective, we have no good reason to consider intelligence to be transferrable outside of complex biology we find our only tangible example in; yet it seems that is precisely what we must do in order to make the case that life itself was generated by similar intelligence - regardless of whether or not our particular form of life was intelligently engineered by another human-like organic intelligence. The complex-organic buck has to stop somewhere. That leaves human life open to explanation by ID, but not all FSCI-producing life (from the perspective of your argument). I think the weak link in your argument is the idea that we do not have good or sufficient reason to suspect (for the purpose of justifying ID theory for the origin of life in our universe, not just human life) that FSCI-producing intelligence is, or can be, an extra-biological phenomena. I think we can find one such "good reason", which you supplied yourself when you said: ---------------- "In our constant, uniform, and repeated experience, FSCI is produced by complex physical FSCI-rich organisms. You may imagine that something else is capable of producing FSCI, but you have no scientific evidence of such a thing. ---------------------- Yet ... what produced complex, physical, FSCI-rich organisms, if the only thing that can produce such FSCI is the thing itself? So, "something else", besides "complex, physical, FSCI-rich organisms" must in fact be capable of producing FSCI-rich product. On that, we must agree. It cannot be a reasonable conclusion, then, that FSCI is generated only by complex organisms (recursive problem). Since the ability to produce FSCI is a definitionally intelligent process, then intelligence (at least to the degree that is required to produce FSCI product above 1000 bits) **must** exist outside of complex organisms, unless one wishes to refer to infinite regress. Thus, we have logically concluded that intelligence to the degree that it is defined as the ability to produce levels of FSCI over 1000 bits must in fact exist outside of complex biological organisms, or else complex, FSCI-rich organisms wouldn't exist.William J. Murray
August 20, 2010
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Onlookers: Look above. Ask yourself: who have put forward empirical evidence with explicit steps of inductive inference therefrom, and who have raised philosophical debates on distractive side-points, for dozens of comments now? What does that tell you of he balance on the empirical merits? GEM of TKI PS: MG, the problem with the incremental function of a protein claim is that proteins exist in islands of function [as studies of protein spaces show]. Until you are on the shoreline of function, discussion of incremental improvement is irrelevant. The calculation you have seen, a simple model [Durston et al have a much more serious but less comprehensible model], is premised on observed function and specificity, AND complexity beyond a reasonable threshold. For a protein, 1,000 bits of basic information storage capacity [on a flat distribution across AA's] comes in at 2^1,000 = 20^x => x ~232. In a small warm little pond, the dozens to hundreds of proteins, many of about this complexity, plus storage media, codes, algorithms etc would have to be formed to create the system in which the proteins have function. So, the threshold is already telling us that the cosmos we observe does not have the search resources to credibly at-random create just ONE of the relevant proteins. And that is before we get into issues over chirality, uncontrolled reaction environment -- contrast the controlled programmed chemistry in the Ribosome, with chaperoned AA's carefully chained -- and worse. When we look at a first organism, we then have to innovate 10's of mns of DNA base pairs of information to get embryologically viable novel body plans, dozens of times over. The search space challenge just exploded far beyond the already insuperable level. It is not just one protein in isolation, but even for that, a viable protein [just on its information content] is maximally hard to get to without intelligent control, which is exactly what is going on in the cell, programed intelligent synthesis of specific nanotech, molecular scale machines. The FSCI threshold is very useful for helping us see that.kairosfocus
August 20, 2010
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"...and if somebody asks what we mean by “intelligence” we just say “you know, whatever you might call ‘intelligent’ if you saw a human being do it”." Again, how could this person possibly know to what you are referring?Upright BiPed
August 20, 2010
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"If we get some signal that looks like a life form sent it, we could tentatively infer some life form was behind it" Again, how would you know?Upright BiPed
August 20, 2010
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gpuccio:
There is absolutely no example of emergence of a new complex function through microevolution.
The ability to digest citrate that evolved during Lenski's long-running experiment seems to contradict your claim. Why do you think it does not?MathGrrl
August 20, 2010
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Hi CJY,
1. For starters how do you scientifically demarcate life from non-life
I have no answers to this at all. "Life" is just a general descriptive label for the things biologists study, not a theoretical term used to explain anything. When I talk about FSCI coming exclusively from "life forms" here, I mean (and I've made this clear repeatedly) "complex, physical, FSCI-rich organisms". So, to the extent that FSCI is an objectively clear concept, my statement about FSCI coming invariably from life forms is also objectively clear.
...and the products of intelligence from non-intelligence?
This has no meaning whatsoever. Things do what they do, and if you choose to call them "intelligent" then that's fine. When I show some computer system I've built to somebody, it either does what I say it does or not. It doesn't add anything to our understanding for us to try and decide if my system is "intelligent" or not!
I’m asking since it appears that you have no problem with SETI being scientific in its research program, so you must be able to tell us how to demarcate between the two points above.
SETI has not actually produced scientific results, but they do try to use science to inform their search. They are (as they say) looking for life-as-we-know-it, which means that in particular that they are looking for organisms with large brains. Astrobiologists at SETI compute what they call "encephalization quotients" (measures of brain evolution) in order to inform their search.
If, indeed, SETI is able to separate intelligent life from all other combinations of life, intelligence, non-life and non-intelligence, then there must be some scientific methodology and definitions of key terms [intelligence and life], no?
They use evolutionary biology as a foundation for astrobiology, and astrobiology as a foundation for looking for life forms in outer space. SETI is a distinctly non-ID-friendly endeavor, and SETI researchers have made that quite clear.
Basically, I’d like to get your position on whether or not we could infer intelligent life as a source if we received a specific type of radio signal — you know, something wild like instructions on how to generate life from scratch and seed planets — from our radio telescopes. If not, what is your reasoning that we presently have or even theoretically could have a better explanation than intelligence life?
If we get some signal that looks like a life form sent it, we could tentatively infer some life form was behind it. To the extent that we have evidence that the life form was similar to humans in various ways, we may gain confidence that human-like physical and mental abilities could have been responsible. The conclusion would be that a complex, physical, FSCI-rich organism with sense organs, brains, muscles, and other human-like attributes was responsible.
2. Even if you disagree that SETI is a scientific research program, you seem to believe that life is indeed a well enough defined concept to be utilized in science classes. So, how do you define life?
No, it isn't well-defined at all. Nobody offers "life" as an explanation for anything in any scientific theory. Same with "intelligence". Or "dexterity", or "athleticism". These are all general descriptive labels, not rigorously defined concepts. They can't be used in scientific theories to explain anything. In AI, we never explain anything by appeal to "intelligence", and if somebody asks what we mean by "intelligence" we just say "you know, whatever you might call 'intelligent' if you saw a human being do it". That is a distinctly subjective and vague definition, but that is all it means - which is why it can never be offered as an explanation for any phenomenon.
For example, since proteins are most likely not ever generated by only law+chance
We do not know if there exists anything except law+chance. (In other words, we do not know if dualism is true).
...absent the structure that you may or may not have been able to sufficiently define as “life,” if we see a protein — let’s say frozen in time in amber — can we reliably infer the existence of a previous living organism as a necessary cause?
I don't really know what we would infer from a protein... if we found a protein on a meteor, maybe we'd infer it was produced some other way? I really don't know.
4. Finally, if you have been able to define life and if you believe that the existence of proteins do not require the structure that you have defined as life, can you provide evidence for your position?
No good definition for "life", no. And no theory about how proteins form aside from where we see them synthesized in biological systems.aiguy
August 20, 2010
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errata corrige: "subconscious minds" "comes from the genome, and it is included in the set of biological information"gpuccio
August 20, 2010
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Aig, "SB asked me for a definition of what I meant by “nature” in my description of why SETI was virtually the opposite of ID. I defined “nature” in that statement to mean whatever is NOT the product of human activity. Obviously we know what is the result of human activity because we all observe ourselves and other humans every day, and we know quite well what we build" This doesn't like a rigorous delineation between what nature can accomplish versus what humans can do. Reading your description, you make the distinction based upon the idea that we have all seen what humans do, and we can tell from that. So if I understand your description correctly as you have stated it, should an instance come up where we find a (pick your own scenario) set of markings in a volcanic formation, we would start to assess the issue by first asking around to see if anyone had seen a human do it? Or is there something more substantial you'd like to add?Upright BiPed
August 20, 2010
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aiguy: Human beings are conscious beings, but much of our thought occurs without conscious awareness. The simple act of walking requires a great deal of planning and coordination; it takes a huge amount of programming to make a robot walk. Yet we can do it without conscious awareness, even in our sleep. Mathematicians commonly report that they do their most creative work when they are not consciously working on the problem; the solutions to difficult problems “come to them” out of “nowhere” without conscious attention. And so on. I have already cvommented on the subconscious mins. As for really unconscious processes, or automatic ones, they are obviously based on intelligent information already present in our body and nervous systen structure, and that comes form the genome, os it is included in the set of biological information. You still have to give one single example of intelligent processes which do not originate form conscious beings, or from biological information.gpuccio
August 20, 2010
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aiguy: "they have nothing at all to show as evidence that anything but a complex, physical, FSCI-rich organism can produce FSCI." First, I'm a little confused as to why you keep sneaking in the term "physical" since you have on a couple occasions stated that you physical can't be properly defined. Other than that ... So, then you agree with ID Theory proper, that intelligence (foresight, as I have defined it) -- with the caveat that it is complex and FSCI rich -- is required to produce FSCI?CJYman
August 20, 2010
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MathGrrl: No, that's not true. Your examples refer to instances of microevolution, where the function is already present and very small mutations (1-2 AAs) can tweak that function a little. Nylonase, for instance, is only a small variation of penicillinase. All these models are similar to those of antibiotic resistance, and no CSI is created in them, because the function is the same and the variation is vastly above the threshold of complexity for CSI. There is absolutely no example of emergence of a new complex function through microevolution. I have said many times that, if functions could be deconstructed in samll funbctional steps, each of them selectable for a reproductive advantage, then the model RV + NS could work. But that assumotion is simply not true. Protein domains are structurally unrelated one to the other, and there are tousands of them They appear at OOL and then during evolution, and darwinian theory has no single model of how one of them appeared, they cannot be deconstructed into simple functional variations from a pre-existing different protein domain. Please, refer to the recent Axe paper for that. Or, if you don't agree, just bring your arguments.gpuccio
August 20, 2010
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MathGrrl, Here are my thoughts on CSI, if you are interested, including more in depth discussions that I've had on the subject. The first link contains a calculation. The other links expand and discuss different aspects with ID critics. https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/what-is-intelligence/#comment-341828 http://telicthoughts.com/puzzles-tps-and-others/#comment-255961 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/id-and-common-descent/comment-page-5/#comment-345511 http://telicthoughts.com/puzzles-tps-and-others/#comment-257384CJYman
August 20, 2010
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aiguy, in order to understand where you are coming from, I'm just curious ... 1. For starters how do you scientifically demarcate life from non-life and the products of intelligence from non-intelligence? I'm asking since it appears that you have no problem with SETI being scientific in its research program, so you must be able to tell us how to demarcate between the two points above. If, indeed, SETI is able to separate intelligent life from all other combinations of life, intelligence, non-life and non-intelligence, then there must be some scientific methodology and definitions of key terms [intelligence and life], no? Basically, I'd like to get your position on whether or not we could infer intelligent life as a source if we received a specific type of radio signal -- you know, something wild like instructions on how to generate life from scratch and seed planets -- from our radio telescopes. If not, what is your reasoning that we presently have or even theoretically could have a better explanation than intelligence life? 2. Even if you disagree that SETI is a scientific research program, you seem to believe that life is indeed a well enough defined concept to be utilized in science classes. So, how do you define life? 3. Next, even though we may not know how life and intelligence are generated, can we still say that there are specific molecules and patterns that require the existence of previous life and intelligence respectively? For example, since proteins are most likely not ever generated by only law+chance absent the structure that you may or may not have been able to sufficiently define as "life," if we see a protein -- let's say frozen in time in amber -- can we reliably infer the existence of a previous living organism as a necessary cause? 4. Finally, if you have been able to define life and if you believe that the existence of proteins do not require the structure that you have defined as life, can you provide evidence for your position?CJYman
August 20, 2010
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William,
I’m not sure how your appeal to causal regress of life rebuts or even correlates to my comments in #315.
My point was that SETI does not consider intelligence in the abstract; rather, it looks for life-as-we-know it. Since life-as-we-know-it cannot logically be the cause of life-as-we-know-it, SETI is doing something very different from ID.
Intelligence – however it exists, even if discorporate and immortal – either produces product “like” human intelligence produces, or it does not; if it does, such product can be reasonably inferred to be the product of a human-like intelligence, even if isn’t housed in a human-like body
In our constant, uniform, and repeated experience, FSCI is produced by complex physical FSCI-rich organisms. You may imagine that something else is capable of producing FSCI, but you have no scientific evidence of such a thing. As far as we can tell, complex information processing requires complex physical mechanisms - there are no known exceptions. So if ID is going to hypothesize that the first FSCI-rich organism was created by something with a human-like mind, they must provide some reason to believe that such a thing is possible. The only scientific endeavor to investigate such claims is paranormal psychology, which hypothesizes that mental cause can act independently of physical mechanism. I am actually open to the possibility of paranormal events, but I think the evidence to date is exceedingly weak. If ID explicity started doing paranormal research to ascertain if its hypothesis was even plausible, then I would have a great of interest in that! However, unfortunately, ID proponents for some reason do not involve themselves in the scientific study of mind, so they have nothing at all to show as evidence that anything but a complex, physical, FSCI-rich organism can produce FSCI.aiguy
August 20, 2010
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gpuccio: Thanks for the quick and detailed response. I've seen similar calculations to yours in my reading here:
The general principle is that the complexity is the rate between the functional space and the search space. The search space for a protein is easy to calculate, it is 20^length of the protein in AAs. The functional space, or target space, is the difficult part: it can be defined as the number of sequences of the same length which, if tested, would exhibit the function according to our definition.
The problem with this calculation is that it assumes that the protein came into existence all at once, in its current form. That's not what biologists see. In fact, we known that various mutational mechanisms and the effects of natural selection and genetic drift can iteratively improve the performance of a particular protein for a given function and can generate proteins that have new functions (nylon eating bacteria and Lenski's citrate consuming e. coli being two well-known examples). Unless I'm missing something, that shows that, by your definition, CSI can be created without the intervention of an intelligent agent.MathGrrl
August 20, 2010
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UB,
“Nature” here means “anything that is NOT the product of HUMAN activity.” How can you tell?
SB asked me for a definition of what I meant by "nature" in my description of why SETI was virtually the opposite of ID. I defined "nature" in that statement to mean whatever is NOT the product of human activity. Obviously we know what is the result of human activity because we all observe ourselves and other humans every day, and we know quite well what we build.aiguy
August 20, 2010
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aiguy: I'm not sure how your appeal to causal regress of life rebuts or even correlates to my comments in #315. Intelligence - however it exists, even if discorporate and immortal - either produces product "like" human intelligence produces, or it does not; if it does, such product can be reasonably inferred to be the product of a human-like intelligence, even if isn't housed in a human-like body.William J. Murray
August 20, 2010
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GP,
AIGUY: I think cognitive science has clearly shown that intelligence (i.e. planning and problem-solving abilities) does not require consciousness. GP: Why do you say that? Can you show me an example of intelligence that can plan and solbe problems, and which does not originate from a conscious being?
Human beings are conscious beings, but much of our thought occurs without conscious awareness. The simple act of walking requires a great deal of planning and coordination; it takes a huge amount of programming to make a robot walk. Yet we can do it without conscious awareness, even in our sleep. Mathematicians commonly report that they do their most creative work when they are not consciously working on the problem; the solutions to difficult problems "come to them" out of "nowhere" without conscious attention. And so on.
I am not necessarily saying that cponsciousness is the cause (although I firmly believe it): but I affirm that it is always associated with any form of intelligent processes.</blockquote That is not the case at all. Although humans create computer sytems, these systems become general problem-solvers on their own, and can learn, design, and be creative on their own (like human beings, who are creative on their own despite you thinking they are created by yet another intelligent designer, right?). So computers can design things on their own, and we don't believe that they are conscious.
The problem is that some of us think that the only conscious intelligent beings are humans.
As far as our experience goes, that is ture (aside from other animals perhaps).
And we usually don’t believe that humans were present at OOL, or can have caused it, or the following evolution of it
It would not be logically possible for human beings to have existed prior to the origin of first life, obviously.
But, while I can agree with the second statement, I would say that the first is only a prejudice, and implies a definite view of reality, which needs not be shared by all, which has never been shared by all, and which has definitely beeen shared only by a minority in the past.
It is simply a statement about our uniform and repeated experience. (Unless you count paranormal sightings of ghosts, demons, etc).
It is definitely possible that other conscious intelligent beings exist.
Yes, it is possible. But we have no evidence of them.
If deosign detection tells us that biological information has all the properties of designed artifacts, and if we agree that humans are not a likely explanation of that, it is simply reasonable to consider that other conscious intelligent beings may be responsible, and try to understand if that is true by scientific inquiry. That’s not only a possibility, it is a scientific duty. There is nothing metaphysical in that.
You can consider whatever you'd like to consider, of course. What you can't do is to claim that you are invoking a known cause, because we do not in any way know that consciousness is causal, or that only conscious things can create FSCI, or that consciousness can exist apart from a human-like brain. None of these things are evident from our experience, and all of these things would require empirical evidence in order to claim that the conclusions of ID are scientific.
Otherwise, we would remain with the only alternative that the origin of biological information cannot ever be explained. Which is not a very satisfying conclusion for science, or for human thought in general.
We can't possibly predict what we will discover in the future. Perhaps paranormal psychology will reveal that consciousness is causal and transcends law+chance. Perhaps we will learn more about quantum physics and discover that information is conveyed from the environment into the genome in unanticipated ways. Perhaps we will come up with evidence that there are an infinite number of universes, so that an infinite number of astronomically unlikely life forms exist... We will of course continue to follow any hypothesis we can think of, and perhaps someday we will actually know the answer. Currently, however, we have no idea.
aiguy
August 20, 2010
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Mark: You are equivocating my position. I don't believe that we can have any empirical proof of free will (neither verification nor falsification). At least, not with our current knowledge. So, I am not treating free will like I treat design. It is not a subject for which we have any real scientific or empirical argument. In that sense I agree with you, empirical arguments cannot distinguish between different conceptions of free will. That means that neither mine nor yours can have empirical support. That's why I say that free will is a philosophical problem, and not a scientific one. But that does not mean that we cannot have philosophical conceptions about it, and that those conception cannot be different. Those conceptions exist, and are different. We don't build our conception of reality only form empirical data.At least, I don't believe that. You can believe as you like. I believe in free will for many reasons, including my intuition, and a very clear consideration of what its negation implies for all our conception of reality and of ouhrselves. None of these reasons is really empirical, but all of them are very valid for me. Compatibilists have a different conception, but I refuse their conception not only because it is different from mine, but also because I find it internally inconsistent and confused. For instance, I don't believe that compatibilists have found any way to preserve moral responsibility under a non libertarian view of free will. They may think they have, but I continue to think that they are only using their words and their reason very badly. From that point of view, I really prefer strict determinists. At least, they have the courage to face the cognitive consequences of what they believe.gpuccio
August 20, 2010
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“Nature” here means “anything that is NOT the product of HUMAN activity.” How can you tell?Upright BiPed
August 20, 2010
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