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Intelligent Design and the Demarcation Problem

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One common objection which is often raised regarding the proposition of real design (as opposed to design that is only apparent) is the criticism that design is unable to be falsified by the ruthless rigour of empirical scrutiny. Science, we are told, must restrict its explanatory devices to material causes. This criterion of conformity to materialism as a requisite for scientific merit is an unfortunate consequence of a misconstrual of the principal of uniformitarianism with respect to the historical sciences. Clearly, a proposition – if it is to be considered properly scientific – must constrict its scope to categories of explanation with which we have experience. It is this criterion which allows a hypothesis to be evaluated and contrasted with our experience of that causal entity. Explanatory devices should not be abstract, lying beyond the scope of our uniform and sensory experience of cause-and-effect.

This, naturally, brings us on to the question of what constitutes a material cause. Are all causes, which we have experience with, reducible to the material world and the interaction of chemical reactants? It lies as fundamentally axiomatic to rationality that we be able to detect the presence of other minds. This is what C.S. Lewis described as “inside knowledge”. Being rational agents ourselves, we have an insider’s knowledge of what it is to be rational – what it is to be intelligent. We know that it is possible for rational beings to exist and that such agents leave behind them detectable traces of their activity. Consciousness is a very peculiar entity. Consciousness interacts with the material world, and is detectable by its effects – but is it material itself? I have long argued in favour of substance dualism – that is, the notion that the mind is itself not reducible to the material and chemical constituents of the brain, nor is it reducible to the dual forces of chance and necessity which together account for much of the other phenomena in our experience. Besides the increasing body of scientific evidence which lends support to this view, I have long pondered whether it is possible to rationally reconcile the concept of human autonomy (free will) and materialistic reductionism with respect to the mind. I have thus concluded that free will exists (arguing otherwise leads to irrationality or reductio ad absurdum) and that hence materialism – at least with respect to the nature of consciousness – must be false if rationality is to be maintained.

My reasoning can be laid out as follows:

1: If atheism is true, then so is materialism.

2: If materialism is true, then the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

3: If the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain, then human autonomy and consciousness are illusory because our free choices are determined by the dual forces of chance and necessity.

4: Human autonomy exists.

From 3 & 4,

5: Therefore, the mind is not reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

From 2 & 5,

6: Therefore, materialism is false.

From 1 & 6,

7: Therefore, atheism is false.

Now, where does this leave us? Since we have independent reason to believe that the mind is not reducible to material constituents, materialistic explanations for the effects of consciousness are not appropriate explanatory devices. How does mind interact with matter? Such a question cannot be addressed in terms of material causation because the mind is not itself a material entity, although in human agents it does interact with the material components of the brain on which it exerts its effects. The immaterial mind thus interacts with the material brain to bring about effects which are necessary for bodily function. Without the brain, the mind is powerless to bring about its effects on the body. But that is not to say that the mind is a component of the brain.

We have further independent reason to expect a non-material cause when discussing the question of the origin of the Universe. Being an explanation for the existence of the natural realm itself – complete with its contingent natural laws and mathematical expressions – natural law, with which we have experience, cannot be invoked as an explanatory factor without reasoning in a circle (presupposing the prior existence of the entity which one is attempting to account for). When faced with explanatory questions with respect to particular phenomena, then, the principle of methodological materialism breaks down because we possess independent philosophical reason to suppose the existence of a supernatural (non-material) cause.

Material causes are uniformly reducible to the mechanisms and processes of chance (randomness) and necessity (law). Since mind is reducible to neither of those processes, we must introduce a third category of explanation – that is, intelligence.

When we look around the natural world, we can distinguish between those objects which can be readily accounted for by the dual action of chance and necessity, and those that cannot. We often ascribe such latter phenomena to agency. It is the ability to detect the activity of such rational deliberation that is foundational to the ID argument.

Should ID be properly regarded as a scientific theory? Yes and no. While ID theorists have not yet outlined a rigorous scientific hypothesis as far as the mechanistic process of the development of life (at least not one which has attracted a large body of support), ID is, in its essence, a scientific proposition – subject to the criteria of empirical testability and falsifiability. To arbitrarily exclude such a conclusion from science’s explanatory toolkit is to fundamentally truncate a significant portion of reality – like trying to limit oneself to material processes of randomness and law when attempting to explain the construction of a computer operating system.

Since rational deliberation characteristically leaves patterns which are distinguishable from those types of patterns which are left by non-intelligent processes, why is design so often shunned as a non-scientific explanation – as a ‘god-of-the-gaps’ style argument? Assuredly, if Darwinism is to be regarded as a mechanism which attempts to explain the appearance of design by non-intelligent processes (albeit hitherto unsuccessfully), it follows by extension that real design must be regarded as a viable candidate explanation. To say otherwise is to erect arbitrary parameters of what constitutes a valid explanation and what doesn’t. It is this arbitrarily constraints on explanation which leads to dogmatism and ideology – which, I think, we can all agree is not the goal or purpose of the scientific enterprise.

Comments
Vivid:
Green if you have not already done so I would highly recommend you get a copy of Luthers “Bondage of the Will”
Thanks vivid. Yes, I have been wanting to read that for some time now. :)Green
August 21, 2010
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"but I have just looked up how Jonathan Edwards defines the ‘will’ in his ‘Freedom of the Will’ (thanks to vivid for prompting that" Green if you have not already done so I would highly recommend you get a copy of Luthers "Bondage of the Will" Many are not aware that Luther considered the freedom or the lack of freedom of the will as it related to the reformation to be in his own words "the hinge upon which all else turns" The book is Luthers answer to Erasmus's "Diatribe" Vividvividbleau
August 21, 2010
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Kairosfocus:
Green: An agent can be causally determined by the sum of her inner states. KF: Does this include his or her will?
I think it does. I’m not used to terms such as “will” being used in these discussions, but I have just looked up how Jonathan Edwards defines the ‘will’ in his ‘Freedom of the Will’ (thanks to vivid for prompting that), and Edwards identifies ‘willing’ with ‘one’s strongest inclination or preference’. In other words, one’s will just is one’s strongest inclination (be that a moral inclination or an immoral inclination). So defined this way, yes – one’s will is simply one of one’s own inner mental states.
If so, is the will predetermined?
Yes. I’d say that one’s inner mental states just are the causal product of the external environment along with one’s previous inner mental states.
If so, does this not contradict basic realities like deciding how to make up and post a comment here?
No. Why should it? I am posting here because I have an inclination to. Why should the fact that I have this inclination because of previous antecedent factors (previous encounters with this blog that have formed previous beliefs and desires etc.) be contradictory?Green
August 21, 2010
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Green: RE: An agent can be causally determined by the sum of her inner states. Does this include his or her will? If so, is the will predetermined? If so, does this not contradict basic realities like deciding how to make up and post a comment here? If not, are you not saying that the agent decides and can act on the decision? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 21, 2010
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StephenB: You said that on my view a person "will not be damned through voluntary fault". But please tell me: what grounds do you have for saying that someone is damned through voluntary fault? As I feel like I’ve said a million times on this blog, libertarianism cannot ground moral responsibility either. So we are in the same boat here: we only have biblical grounds for grounding moral responsibility: neither of us has philosophical grounds. Finally, this probably isn't the place to get into a discussion on the merits of calvinism. I don’t know if I'd class myself as a calvinist, but I do think that the doctrine of total depravity seems biblical and fits with experience. So a lot of what you said about how we can't change our own spiritual destinies I'd agree with. You said that “It is only through a free act of the will that such a person can ask God to change his mental states.” To be honest, I think that God has to initiate the salvation act, and that even our desire for his help is ultimately an act of grace, and has to come from him. But again, I don’t think this is the place to get into a discussion of the merits (or not) of calvinism. So I’d rather not say any more on this.Green
August 21, 2010
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-vivid: “As best as I can tell no one is denying the fundamental premise that something determines the will. Am I wrong in this assesment?” The will, like the mind, is a faculty of an immaterial soul. Each faculty has its own work to do; the mind is responsible for seeking truth and the will is responsible for deciding what is worth loving. On the other hand, each can influence the other: The individual can, through the proper use of the intellect, train the will to prefer good things and disdain bad things. On the other hand, the untrained will can influence the intellect to avoid truth and pursue solely selfish interests. Each can have either a positive or negative impact on the other. Typically, though, the intellect provides the target and the will shoots the arrow. Quite often, the passions demand one thing but the will, if properly trained and guided by a sound intellect, can override those passions and chose to love what the passions resist--chastity, courage and humility, for example. Of course, God can also move the will of an individual just as the individual can also move his own will. Unfortunately, by virtue of original sin, the intellect has been darkened and the will weakened, but not to the point where they have been rendered totally useless. They can still function at some level. In many respects, the will’s health and strength depends on the ways it has been used in the past, and even more importantly, on its relationship with God. Thus, there is both a natural and a supernatural component involved in the use of the human will. At the natural level, bad habits can so impair the will that it loses whatever powers it once had. Many addictions are not physical, meaning that, through unwise behavior, an individual weakens his will to the point where psychological, not physical addictions rule him. Thus, the distinction between morality and medicine can become blurred since it is, at that level, difficult to know to what extent that the will has been weakened and to what extend mental and physical pathology come into play. At this point, only God and medicine can help since such a soul no longer has any power of will to resist unwise impulses. On the other hand, if an individual has strengthened his will by building the right kind of habits, he can command it to follow the right path even if his passions and appetites bid him to go another way, as is the case with a soldier whose every instinct tells him to run from a battle but whose trained will commands him to move forward. At the supernatural level, God can work with the individual who has striven to strengthen his will at the natural level, increasing its powers such that it performs superhuman moral acts. Thus, as it says in Scripture, God is working through the person's will and the person's will has, by its own consent, become a slave to God's will. Thus, both the highest and lowest levels of morality involve slavery: The saint, though the use of his will, becomes a slave of God's will, his intellect having been supernaturally illumniated and his will, supernaturally strenghened. The barbarian, though the use of his will, becomes a slave to his own appetites and passions, his intellect becoming ever more darkened and will becoming ever more weakened.StephenB
August 21, 2010
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Clive @ 402:
I said: Yes, this is one of the differences. Determinists such as myself and molch think that decisions or actions are determined by a combination of our inner mental states (our beliefs, desires, and so forth). Clive replied: Can you parse this out for me please? You always say something to the effect of “and so forth”, what else is involved in this “and so forth”?
Sure, sorry if this hasn't been clear. Basically I mean any mental state that you can think of. I think 'beliefs' and 'desires' encompass most - but have been using 'and so forth' just in case anyone can think of some mental states that are not encompassed by these two categories.
Does it involve everything that occurs with our whole person? Is every single sensibility and faculty (that a human may have in his power) engaged..
This depends how you define a 'person'. I'd say yes it does involve everything that occurs within a whole person becasuse I think a person is the sum of his or her inner states. Some libertarians, however, (specifically agent-causal ones), say that a person is something over and above the combination of his or her inner states. I don't think this extra thing (this transcendental self) is involved - but only because I don't think it exists i.e. because I don't think a person is something over and above all her inner states.
..in which case this completeness would be no different than just simply declaring the whole endeavor to be a mind with free choice?
Given my view of the self, libertarianism does not follow. An agent can be causally determined by the sum of her inner states. The agent-causal libertarian attempts to get around exactly this by saying that the agent is something in addition to - something over and above - her inner states. They posit a 'transcental self' (to use gpuccios words) which is a substance and not a inner state. This substance is meant to provide that extra factor which frees the agent from being determined by his or her inner mental states.
What is omitted, and what is, in particular, included as to what determines our will, in your scheme?
I hope what I've said above has answered this :)Green
August 21, 2010
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---Green: "I certainly agree, and nothing here is inconsistent with determinism. We too have conflicting desires and inner struggles." Of course, we all have conflicting desires inner struggles. Many of these struggles consist of a will that wants to do one thing but recognizes that it ought to do something else. It is precisely at this point that the individual can command, or if need be, train the will to follow what it should want but doesn't and avoid that which it does want and shouldn't. Thus, we can change our destiny. Determinism claims that we cannot make that change of course or that we cannot, by an act of free choice, even ask God to change us. Destructive impulses need to be resisted and resistance is only possible through a free act of the will. By your philosophy, anyone who is unfortunate enough to be burdened with the wrong kinds of desires or mental is powerless to change them. Further, it is only through a free act of the will that such a person can ask God to change his mental states. Thus, if God has not previously determined that the person should have mental states conducive to salvation, that person will never be saved. He will not be damned through voluntary fault but rather as a result have having been unlucky enough to be created by a God who had planned to damn him all along. It is the most monstrous of doctrines, and it is definitely not Scriptural as I showed earlier with plenty of passages, which you pretty much ignored. The determinist/compatibilist is doomed to go whichever way the wind blows. If the wind has determined that he will be a lazy, cowardly, and ignorant lecher, well, that’s the way the wind blows. Ironically, the determinist has decided that he will use his faculty of free will to render himself a slave. What a tragedy. A will is a terrible thing to waste.StephenB
August 21, 2010
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"Vivid: Hmm. Interesting. I’m not sure how that fits in here." You asked me what I meant by the "will" I answered. Vividvividbleau
August 21, 2010
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Vivid: Hmm. Interesting. I'm not sure how that fits in here. I know that Jonathan Edwards was not a libertarian, though. He defined free will in a way that was consistent with determinism. E.g. SEP says that Edwards saw free willings as "those which proceed from one's own desires".Green
August 21, 2010
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Green,
Yes, this is one of the differences. Determinists such as myself and molch think that decisions or actions are determined by a combination of our inner mental states (our beliefs, desires, and so forth).
Can you parse this out for me please? You always say something to the effect of "and so forth", what else is involved in this "and so forth"? Does it involve everything that occurs with our whole person? Is every single sensibility and faculty (that a human may have in his power) engaged , in which case this completeness would be no different than just simply declaring the whole endeavor to be a mind with free choice? What is omitted, and what is, in particular, included as to what determines our will, in your scheme?Clive Hayden
August 21, 2010
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"What do you mean by the “will”? I would define the will the same way Edwards or Locke defines it. "That which the mind chooses anything. The faculty of the will is that faculty or power, or principle of mind, by which it is capable of choosing: an act of the will is the same as an act of choosing or choice" Edwards "The Freedom of the Will" "The will signifies nothing but a power or ability to pefer or choose" Locke "Human Understanding" Vividvividbleau
August 21, 2010
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Vivid:
“What does the determining is not the inner states, but an enduring substance – what gpuccio has referred to as the ‘transcendental self’.” Wouldnt that mean then that will is self DETERMINED?
What do you mean by the "will"? Agent-causationists would say that the agent is self determined, but not 'the will', I don't think. I think "the will" seems like an inner mental state - and agent-causationists say that inner states are distinct from the agent.Green
August 21, 2010
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"What does the determining is not the inner states, but an enduring substance – what gpuccio has referred to as the ‘transcendental self’." Wouldnt that mean then that will is self DETERMINED? Vividvividbleau
August 21, 2010
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(Vividbleau, incidentally, this is not to say that all libertarians believe that an agent is distinct from the sum of his inner states. Non-causal and event-causal libertarians think an agent is constituted by his inner states. But no-one here seems to have defended either of these types of libertarianism, so they haven't really been in discussion much) :)Green
August 21, 2010
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Vividbleau @ 394:
Just a point of clarification. I recognize that exactly what that something is that determines the will may differ between the different participants.
Yes, this is one of the differences. Determinists such as myself and molch think that decisions or actions are determined by a combination of our inner mental states (our beliefs, desires, and so forth). Agent-causal libertarians (e.g. gpuccio) think that an agent is distinct from the sum of his inner states. What does the determining is not the inner states, but an enduring substance - what gpuccio has referred to as the 'transcendental self'.Green
August 21, 2010
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AIG:
385, you can’t say how to distinguish what you think of as an “intelligent” cause from an “unintelligent” cause, for all the reasons I’ve given (see, for example, #306). 306, ID needs to be able to distinguish the explanation it offers, which is “intelligent causation”, from all other causes [Done long since, have yopu been paying attention?]. Simply saying that “something intelligent” was the cause of some phenomenon tells us absolutely nothing about it – not one single thing. [Red herring led out to Strawman: the design inference is from empirically warranted sign to signified causal process, directed contingency, which in our experience is routinely and reliably the product of known intelligences] We don’t know if that means that this something can talk, or that it can read, or take an IQ test, or understand a melody or play Jeopardy or… anything else. [You have changed the subject entirely, again, from signs to signified observed and relibly known causal process to something else. The signs and inference signify design; and that comes with designers in our experience -- which is a quite big enough conclusion thank you. That e.g. cell based life on its dFSCI was credibly designed is a big enough conclusion to revolutionise origins science] And as we’ve seen repeatedly here, it really doesn’t help for ID to say that intelligent causes are “those capable of producing FSCI”, because that renders ID’s central premise as perfectly vacuous: The FSCI we observe in biology is cauesd by that which can produce FSCI”. [Strawman! To conclude design and infer that design comes from designer, whether we have identified whodunit, is patently NOT vacuous, nor is your attempt to project a circular argument even close to true or fair. Intelligence is empirically identified on a cluster of characteristics from known cases, as you know or should know, and to separately identify signs that on empirical evidence point to directed contingency and the further empirical identification of such activity with its known source is PATENTLY NON-CIRCULAR.]
The above is simply and directly false, and insistently -- by now, sadly, verging on demonstrably stubbornly and closed mindedly -- so in the teeth of abundant, repeated correction. One last time, in the hope that even at this late stage there can be a reasonable discussion or at minimum, an exchange of thoughts, I have to be fairly direct: 1 --> AIG, you know or should know that the concept of intelligence starts with ourselves as case studies and key examples. You have seen or refuse to see that definition starts from key examples and patterns associated therewith. (Cf 379 above earlier today, on this. Once we have examples and patterns among such, family resemblance is enough to provide the reasonable conclusion of intelligence.) 2 --> You know or should know that just the comments posted in this thread, of linguistically functional digital texts of sufficient length are routinely produced by intelligences exerting directed, choice contingencies, and -- on search space constraints, are not at all credible for blind, stochastic contingencies. 3 --> Similarly, you know or should know on observation and experience, that algorithmically functional digital strings of sufficient complexity are are routinely produced by intelligences exerting directed, choice contingencies, and -- on search space constraints, are not at all credible for blind, stochastic contingencies. 4 --> You know or should know that the case of dFSCI covers both of these. On reliable and routine empirical observation we are entitled to infer inductively that directed contingency, i.e design, is the causal process by which dFSCI originates in our observation amounting to many billions of real-world tests. With ZERO credible counter-examples, or you would have been happy to provide such. 5 --> Notice this onlookers: we are dealing with an inductive inference on abundant observation, and with ZERO counter-examples. That is why resort is being made to rhetorical games on definitional tricks and the like, to hyperskeptically block what is otherwise already long since plainly established. That resort has to be made to such tricks shows both the true balance on the merits and the degree of ideological commitment that lies behind the objections being raised. 6 --> Now, the real problem is this: dFSCI -- and remember, this is just an abbreviation for a very familiar entity, digital symbol strings at work, such as the ASCII text in this post, or the code in a computer -- is to be found in abundance in the living cell, and it is at work algorithmically, based on codes and expressed in machines such as ribosomes. 7 --> Explaining like effects on their observed causal patterns, we have every right to conclude that the living cell is an artifact, a designed entity. (And notice, we are doing so on the very principle of uniformity and inference to best known causal explanation that Lyell and Darwin used to infer a deep and unobserved past of he earth and of life.) 8 --> What then is the difference? 9 --> Simple: this time around the evidence and the signs are pointing to a signified causal process that is most unwelcome to the a priori materialist scientific establishment, and by extension to their fellow travellers. 10 --> So, it is being stoutly resisted. Not because there is a successful chance + necessity model of origin of life with solid empirical support, or of he origin of major body plans, but because the reigning orthodoxy is uncomfortable with where the empirical evidence points. 11 --> That is the context in which science has been radically redefined away from being an unfettered (but ethically and intellectually responsible) progressive pursuit of the truth about our world based on observation, experiment, analysis and free discussion among the informed. 12 --> Thus we see the definitional games on natural vs supernatural or non-natural causes above. When all along your friendly local soup can tells you that scientists routinly distinguish and study natural and artificial causes. 13 --> That too is why -- never mind that LIFE [the subject matter of Biology] is only defined on key examples, characteristics and family resemblance -- suddenly we see a pretence that "intelligence" is undefined and meaningless or circularly defined on FSCI. 14 --> In fact, you know or should know that dFSCI is an empirically warranted sign of directed contingency as causal process, and that as we exemplify ourselves, intelligence is the routine and reliable source of directed contingency. 15 --> As to whether we -- as classic exemplars of intelligence -- make plans and have purposes or intents, I simply point you to Governments, Corporations, and Armies. Even posts in this thread reflect intentions and directed contingency! 16 --> I am particularly astonished to see assertions like: "ID needs to be able to distinguish the explanation it offers, which is “intelligent causation”, from all other causes. Simply saying that “something intelligent” was the cause of some phenomenon tells us absolutely nothing about it – not one single thing." 17 --> If you were to get down off your Ivory tower long enough to simply click on and read a link here or here for a 101 introduction [much less the UD Weak Argument Correctives you plainly disregard], you would see that design is -- routinely even -- distinguished from chance and/or necessity, and that based on identifiable and distinct empirical characteristics. 17 --> This, any number of commenters here have repeatedly pointed out to you; but it is increasingly sadly evident that you are -- pardon the directness, but nothing else seems to have a hope of getting through -- simply not listening, but are repeatedly spewing out long since repeatedly corrected talking points. _________________ AIG, surely, you can do better than this. Please. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 21, 2010
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Hi vivid - good to see another determinist back in the mix! "As best as I can tell no one is denying the fundamental premise that something determines the will. Am I wrong in this assesment?" Well, gpuccio is so far the only libertarian who has laid his cards on the table - he basically exempts his will from cause and effect, and his choices are therefore neither determined nor undetermined. (gpuccio, I hope I summarized that correctly, otherwise feel free to chastise me!) Of course, from my (and your, and Green's) perspective, that doesn't make any sense at all, but since that's his religious conviction as opposed to a logically defendable philosophical conclusion, I am fine with that.molch
August 21, 2010
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RE 392 Just a point of clarification. I recognize that exactly what that something is that determines the will may differ between the different participants. Vivivividbleau
August 21, 2010
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Bornagain: "bacteria have dramatically terra-formed the environment of this planet to make it fit for higher life forms. Higher life forms that the bacteria could care less about" So, there are things that bacteria "care" about? I didn't know that IDers think that bacteria are conscious!!! :) But, whether they care or not, higher life forms make excellent substrates for gazillions of species and individuals of bacteria, so I think they would care, if they could... On the general issue, that you think bacteria have done anything with the purpose "to make this planet fit for higher life forms": This assumption obviously only makes sense under the pre-supposition that humans, or any other higher life-forms in the form that we see them today, were the "purpose" or "goal" of anything (the universe?) or anyone (the bacteria? a god?). I don't operate under that pre-supposition. So, claiming that bacteria did anything they did to make this planet fit for the eventual arrival of higher life forms makes as much sense to me as claiming that trees in the African Savannah grew tall to make the Savannah fit for the eventual arrival of giraffes, or that hot dogs were made long and skinny to make American BBQers fit for the eventual arrival of modern hot dog buns. The "fitness relationships" are obviously the other way around: hot dog buns were made to fit already existing hot dogs, giraffes evolved long necks and legs to exploit already existing tall trees, and higher life forms evolved to fit the environment that already existed (and then these higher life forms also changed the environment and in their own turn created new niches, that new life forms evolved to fit). Absent the assumption that somebody or something wanted life-forms to turn out exactly the way they are today, there is absolutely no reason to assume that different conditions at any turn of anorganic or organic development of our planet would have enabled life-forms, evolved to fit different environments, and thus very different from the ones we see today.molch
August 21, 2010
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Honestly to me it seems that people are talking past one another. As best as I can tell no one is denying the fundamental premise that something determines the will. Am I wrong in this assesment? Vividvividbleau
August 21, 2010
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Molch @ 390: Thank you! It's nice to know I'm not alone in this thread ;-)Green
August 21, 2010
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Green @ 386, 387 & 388: great summaries - I couldn't agree with you more!molch
August 21, 2010
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gpuccio: "Please show me how a computer could output any page of Hamlet, or any equivalent page with new original consistent (and possibly interesting and beautiful) meaning, the way you describe." I don't know anything about computer programming, so no, I can't write a program that uses simple "mutations" to create new meaningful output from pre-existing text under a pre-existing framework of rules. I have no doubt that it can be done, though. Computers can now translate text into a great variety of languages with amazing consistency, simulating the use of different vocabulary + grammar + syntax rules of all these different languages by simple probabilistic means. But, although I personally could not create the computer program, I can do it by hand. It would obviously take me some time. Not because the mutations are complicated, but because it would take much searching through existing sentences to find the useful ones. That's what the pre-existing machineries of mutation + selection, of the computer search algorithm, and of the vocabulary + grammar + syntax structure of language do for us in the different search contexts. The additional, and more important issue here is, that, although I am quite sure I could produce a page from Hamlet without reaching what you define as CSI, neither the entirety of Hamlet, nor a page out of it constitutes a single evolutionary step. Shakespeare did not write the entirety of Hamlet simultaneously, or even a page. The unit of composition that is “selected” for its meaning and consistency is the single sentence. Every text is written one sentence at a time. The longer a text gets, the more complex the “fitness environment” for every new sentence gets, but that environment is now obviously pre-existing. "Regarding the nylonase example, I just showed you that the change achieved though random mutation is not complex. Therefore, no new CSI has emerged, even if the existing complex algorithms have used that change to implement a new higher level function." That's exactly my point. If under that definition Nylonase has no CSI, then you writing an english sentence has no CSI either, because you are using pre-existing words fit into pre-existing grammatical frameworks by pre-existing rules, and create new higher level function by putting it in the context of already existing complex text.molch
August 21, 2010
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Above @ 364:
I’m sorry but there is absolutely nothing unintelligent about a substance causing something. This merely seems like a semantic issue than anything else… a property of a substance is a good explanation while a substance is not? Come on.
I’m not that well read on the issue of substance-causation versus causation by a property of the substance, but I know that even agent-causal libertarians themselves agree that substance-causation is a huge challenge (e.g. Taylor, 1992). The reason they allow it, however, is because they think that the potential pay-offs of the theory are so huge (I disagree – the pay-offs just aint there).
No. O’Connor defends the position that according to agent causality a framework is provided in which an agent may chose to utilize a specific reason, although the reason itself is not sufficient in determining behavior.
If an agent's actions are not causally determined by mental states (certain beliefs, desires, and so forth), then one cannot escape the conclusion that agential action occurs - ultimately - for no reason at all. O’Connor is aware of this problem (e.g. see his Agent causation(1995), in, Agents, causes and events: essays on indeterminism and free will. However, his only two responses I could discern were: (1) With hindsight, the agent still has reasons she can cite for her action (2) Well, sometimes our decisions are irrational Regarding (1), yes, an agent has reasons she can cite after the event. But these reasons do not rationalise the action because such reasons are all ex post facto. That is, they are not, ultimately, why the decision was made. Ultimately, the decision was not made for any specific reason at all. Which I would regard as quite irrational. Regarding (2), here I think O'Connor is equivocating over the term irrational. Whilst we sometimes make decisions that are irrational in the sense that they are made for bad reasons, or for ill-logical reasons, or for spontaneous reasons, there is no reason to think that sometimes our decisions are irrational in the sense that they are ultimately made for no reasons at all. Even in a scenario where two courses of action are equally preferable, there is no reason to think that the decision is made for no reason at all. In scenarios such as this, a decision will be made because of a desire to choose a course of action. Thus even here, there are reasons that explain the decision. I have already made this point in a response to GP above. Finally, you say:
Finally, I believe much of the literature on free will/determinism is ridden with definitional and semantic issues and gimmicks as well as false dichotomies which exacerbate the problem instead of alleviating it. It’s precisely for that reason that I find it more fruitful to use simple language in addressing the matter.
I know there are a lot of different terms, but I think we have to be precise about what exactly we are referring to. If you look up “Free Will” on the SEP, then half of the article will be referring to theories of free will that are completely compatible with dtereminism. That’s why I’ve been using the term ‘libertarianism’ rather than ‘free will’ since libertarianism free will is free will that is incomaptible with determinism – and that is what most here probably mean when then say ‘free will’.Green
August 21, 2010
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StephenB @ 304:
Green @299, I have read your latest comments on the subject of determinism and free will. Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion that, on this matter at least, you are impervious to reason.
All I can say here is just that I just hope the onlookers will see that I have provided reasoned arguments for my position. Some of the libertarians here, on the other hand, are still claiming that libertarianism can ground moral responsibility, when I have shown that it can’t (e.g. Kairosfocus @ 301, and GP implied that he thought it could @ 324). So I don’t think that I have been the one ‘impervious to reason’.
I never make personal judgments, but I will simply offer an observation about human nature… It is very to avoid the painful process of exercising and strengthening our will, which is the cost that every human must pay when he strives for virtue, a process that always involves saying yes to our good impulses and no to our bad impulses..
I certainly agree, and nothing here is inconsistent with determinism. We too have conflicting desires and inner struggles. There is nothing here to imply libertarianism.
In effect, the compatibilist renders virtue meaningless, since virtue, by its very nature, consists of forming the will to prefer that which it ought to prefer and disdain that which it ought to disdain. The compatibilist is inclined to act on all his desires and disinclined to resist those which he ought to resist.
Perhaps some confusion has entered this discussion because I have been using the word “desire” – which has carnal connotations. By “desire” I simply meant to refer to an inner mental state. But it does not have to refer to a carnal desire; it could be to a godly desire. Or a godly value. Or a godly intention. Or any godly inner mental state. So I hope that makes it clear that the determinist is not stuck in his or her carnal state, and that the following passages from StephenB do not follow from determinism:
“The compatibilist is inclined to act on all his desires and disinclined to resist those which he ought to resist”. On the contrary, he can only turn in the direction that his cravings and appetites would lead him. He is, or soon will become, a slave to his passions. The compatibilist…is, like the materialist determinst, a slave to his lower nature.
I hope it’s clear that these statements just represent a confusion over what is meant by ‘desire’. Desires (or efforts of the will, intentions, and so forth) can be godly, and thus, contrary to the statements above, the determinist is not stuck in his or her carnal state. God is able to transform us.Green
August 21, 2010
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Sorry to interject now that the discussion has moved on. Just a couple of things I wanted to clear up - and I'll post this in 3 separate posts, so it's a bit shorter... Kairosfocus @ 301 cited lots of verses in order to show that determinism was false. He said that the decisive issue here is “responsible power of choice and decision” and that “These [the verses he cites] are not obscure or minor or unclear texts. And they are premised on responsible choice”. He concludes that deterministic theologies “struggle in the face of abundant testimony of the Scriptures”. All I want to point out to Kairosfocus and onlookers here are two things: (1) Libertarianism cannot ground moral responsibility either. So libertarianism also “struggles in the face of abundant testimony of Scriptures”. Kairosfocus here seems to be using “free will” as a label to make a claim to moral responsibility. If anyone goes and studies agent-causal theories of libertarianism, though, they will know that it just does not come up with the goods. See my post @ 114 for why. For those who have just joined the discussion: GP and StephenB have tried to rebutt my arguments here by saying that agential control only requires that an agent need to be able to control his ‘inner intentions’, not his ‘outer actions’. However, my points in post 114 apply equally as much to inner intentions as they do to outer actions. So we still have not seen how agent-causal libertarianism can ground moral responsibility. Kairosfocus et al. are thus not entitled to claim that libertarianism is any better off when it comes to grounding moral responsibility than the determinist. (2) I think moral responsibility is something that the bible teaches. But given that neither libertarianism nor determinism can ground it, I think it is a paradox. So citing verses like Kairosfocus has done does nothing to solve the issue. It just highlights the paradox that I have already highlighted - See my post @ 299.Green
August 21, 2010
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above,
AIGUY: Nobody knows if human brains do anything that is not by “law and chance”. If we do, that would mean dualism is true, and that is a metaphysical speculation that is not supportable scientifically. ABOVE: The term chance is a very loosely defined term, and as I have explained in a previous thread it is often a mere substitute for human ignorance.
Agreed! With the exception of quantum randomness (where there really may simply be nothing else to know) "chance" is indeed a way to say "the specific deterministic causes are unknown and not systematically related to the observed effect".
Also, it would be more accurate to state that currently, the discipline of science is incapable of addressing the matter and furthermore, it is unknown if it may ever will. The reason I say this is not to sound rude but rather to remind all, myself included, of the limits of science and how it is not the ultimate decider of warranted knowledge. It is very far from being that actually – in fact, it will never be that – and the reason I explicate it is not so much to undermine the scientific enterprise but rather to keep it honest and grounded as so it doesn’t turn into self-refuting scientism.
I could not agree with you more, above. Well said! ******************** SB,
You have classified the ancient hunter’s creative effort to build a spear as the same kind of cause as wind, water, and air, defining the word “natural” in a very unnatural way and in a decidedly irrational way. [anything not created by humans].
Yes, that definition was offered when you asked what I meant in the context of SETI (that they look for things "not found in nature")- that is why I said "'Nature' here means “anything that is NOT the product of HUMAN activity.” (emphasis added - post 322)
By your definition, the human mind, which was not created by humans, is a “natural cause.”
Yes, that's correct.
If you want to say that Mozart’s creative effort to write a piano composition is the same kind of cause that makes the piano strings resonate, fine. But it makes no sense.
??? I already explained to you that not all natural causes do the same thing, so again, where are you going with this? Are you trying to make it seem like I believe human activity and harmonic vibration are the same thing?
If you want so say that the tornado which wreaks havoc on a house is the same kind of cause as a burglar who ransacks a house, that’s alright. But it makes no sense. If you want so say that messages coming from Mars in the form of Morse Code is the same kind of cause the forms a super Nova, I guess you are entitled to your opinion. But it makes no sense.
I don't understand your argument. The point here is whether or not anything transcends the laws of physics (law+chance). Dualists believe that human minds transcend physical cause, and materialists do not. Nobody knows the answer. But nobody thinks that tornados and burglars are the same thing, obviously. It's not that every cause is the same. The problem is that you can't say how to distinguish what you think of as an "intelligent" cause from an "unintelligent" cause, for all the reasons I've given (see, for example, #306). ********************** gpuccio,
aiguy, please be compassionate! This is a blog, I often write in a hurry, late and tired. I cannot aòlways be careful to use only term you would not object to. If you have already understood my approach, please be flexible and try to understand waht I mean.
Forgive me if I read too quickly, GP. It is indeed very difficult to write these posts quickly without misspeaking; I do it all the time. I'll try to understand what you mean.
Here with intelligent information I was obviously referring to the CSI already stored in the genome, which guides the development of every single biological being. I call that intelligent information because I believe that it is the product of intelligent design, that’s all. There are times I am arguing the details, and times that I am just expressing my point of view, hoping that the interlocutor will understand the difference.
OK. Again, though, information comes into the organism through genetic and epigenetic factors at birth, and then continuously from the environment too.
We have no examples of FSCI that does not come from biological organisms. There is a difference: conscious beings create new CSI. The biological information written in the genome just perpetuates itself. Humans have produced Hamlet. That is different from the fact that all biological beings, including humans, acquire some behaviours, like walking, in a repetitive way, using their genetic potential, even if with the contribution of external inputs.
I disagree. Humans (and some computer systems) take information from the environment and process it in ways that alter their structure and their future behaviors (i.e. they learn). All of our skills are due to both our inherited structure and to our interactions with the environment. This is true for walking - and talking, and even writing Hamlet.
Finally, I agree with you that research about the mind body relationship can be useful for ID, but not that it is necessary for it. You seem to believe that the issue is for the moment set in the other sense. That’s not true.
I believe that ontology (dualism vs. materialism) is an open question - unresolvable at the present by appeal to our experience. I believe that the problem of free will is likewise open. I think science is beginning to inform some of these questions (e.g. research by folks like Libet and Wegner), but as for now we do not know the answers.
Believing that consciousness is a product of physical objects is as arbitrary as the opposite (and, IMO, vastly more inconsistent). So, at worst, ID has as much right to go its scientific way as any phisicalist scientific theory.
This is the opposite of the truth: In fact, nothing that can't be resolved by appeal to our uniform and repeated experience can possibly be scientific. So physicalism isn't scientific, and dualism isn't scientific either. Only theories that do not depend on the truth of any particular answer to these metaphysical questions can be scientific. Darwinian evolution doesn't depend on materialism or dualism, and so it is scientific (even though I do not believe it actually accounts for what it claims to account for). I am arguing there that ID depends on dualism and is incompatible with materialism, and so I am arguing that ID is not scientific. (I do not believe that consciousness "is a product of physical objects", by the way).
Research about those issues is a duty for all thinking persons, but there is no reason to attribute that duty specifically to ID.
If ID wants to scientifically support its hypothesis that some entity which was not itself a complex physical organism still was able to process information and design things the way a human does, then yes - ID is obliged to come up with some evidence that such a thing might exist. That is why ID needs to perform research in paranormal psychology.aiguy
August 21, 2010
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WJM: You remind me of what they used to say about the soul: it is unitary but has faculties or facilities -- mind, will, and emotions/ felt perceptions. That is it is self-moved [volitional] and is intelligent, aware self-aware and conscious. Gkairosfocus
August 21, 2010
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In some spiritualities, the mind is viewed as a sublime machine which goes about generating whatever the soul focuses upon; the soul being free will intent, and the mind being its interpretive/instructional agent, and the physical being the materials and context for the construct. IOW, the free will soul intends, and the mind, like an interpreter or a software program, breaks the intention down, or creates symbolic representations from that intent, then views the physical world for ways and means to generate the representation of that intent, and commands whatever it has power over to work towards realizing that intent. The soul, of course, has oversight authority to change the mind, alter specific actions, or redirect as the ensuing situation develops. IMO, if the soul intends to not see a thing, then the mind happily goes about this task, using all of its tools and tricks. It can just "not see" evidence, or use hyperskepticism, confirmation bias, faulty logic, or just endlessly pollute the evidence and logic so that one can never see clearly. For those that intend to not see the evidence, no evidence will do. As I have put forth in other threads or venues scenarios of blatantly obvious intelligent design (the alien artifact example), and then ask how we can recognize them, what we are treated to are not explanations, but rather diversions from the incoherent position. The cell is just such an example, only 100 times more apparently designed by intelligence than the crashed alien ship of my example. The reason that the crashed alien ship finding of ID is not controversial, and the cellular finding of ID is, is as kf states: it directly shows what so many intend on not seeing, so they must cover it up, misdirect, camoflage, and deny. The example reveals how ID deniers must obfuscate in order to "not see" the hypocrisy involved. (BTW, I'm not suggesting we add another entity - the soul - to the mix; one can just see it as two aspects of the mind; the free will part, and the software-like program that leaps into action when there is a command issued.)William J. Murray
August 21, 2010
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