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Intelligent Design and the Demarcation Problem

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One common objection which is often raised regarding the proposition of real design (as opposed to design that is only apparent) is the criticism that design is unable to be falsified by the ruthless rigour of empirical scrutiny. Science, we are told, must restrict its explanatory devices to material causes. This criterion of conformity to materialism as a requisite for scientific merit is an unfortunate consequence of a misconstrual of the principal of uniformitarianism with respect to the historical sciences. Clearly, a proposition – if it is to be considered properly scientific – must constrict its scope to categories of explanation with which we have experience. It is this criterion which allows a hypothesis to be evaluated and contrasted with our experience of that causal entity. Explanatory devices should not be abstract, lying beyond the scope of our uniform and sensory experience of cause-and-effect.

This, naturally, brings us on to the question of what constitutes a material cause. Are all causes, which we have experience with, reducible to the material world and the interaction of chemical reactants? It lies as fundamentally axiomatic to rationality that we be able to detect the presence of other minds. This is what C.S. Lewis described as “inside knowledge”. Being rational agents ourselves, we have an insider’s knowledge of what it is to be rational – what it is to be intelligent. We know that it is possible for rational beings to exist and that such agents leave behind them detectable traces of their activity. Consciousness is a very peculiar entity. Consciousness interacts with the material world, and is detectable by its effects – but is it material itself? I have long argued in favour of substance dualism – that is, the notion that the mind is itself not reducible to the material and chemical constituents of the brain, nor is it reducible to the dual forces of chance and necessity which together account for much of the other phenomena in our experience. Besides the increasing body of scientific evidence which lends support to this view, I have long pondered whether it is possible to rationally reconcile the concept of human autonomy (free will) and materialistic reductionism with respect to the mind. I have thus concluded that free will exists (arguing otherwise leads to irrationality or reductio ad absurdum) and that hence materialism – at least with respect to the nature of consciousness – must be false if rationality is to be maintained.

My reasoning can be laid out as follows:

1: If atheism is true, then so is materialism.

2: If materialism is true, then the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

3: If the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain, then human autonomy and consciousness are illusory because our free choices are determined by the dual forces of chance and necessity.

4: Human autonomy exists.

From 3 & 4,

5: Therefore, the mind is not reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

From 2 & 5,

6: Therefore, materialism is false.

From 1 & 6,

7: Therefore, atheism is false.

Now, where does this leave us? Since we have independent reason to believe that the mind is not reducible to material constituents, materialistic explanations for the effects of consciousness are not appropriate explanatory devices. How does mind interact with matter? Such a question cannot be addressed in terms of material causation because the mind is not itself a material entity, although in human agents it does interact with the material components of the brain on which it exerts its effects. The immaterial mind thus interacts with the material brain to bring about effects which are necessary for bodily function. Without the brain, the mind is powerless to bring about its effects on the body. But that is not to say that the mind is a component of the brain.

We have further independent reason to expect a non-material cause when discussing the question of the origin of the Universe. Being an explanation for the existence of the natural realm itself – complete with its contingent natural laws and mathematical expressions – natural law, with which we have experience, cannot be invoked as an explanatory factor without reasoning in a circle (presupposing the prior existence of the entity which one is attempting to account for). When faced with explanatory questions with respect to particular phenomena, then, the principle of methodological materialism breaks down because we possess independent philosophical reason to suppose the existence of a supernatural (non-material) cause.

Material causes are uniformly reducible to the mechanisms and processes of chance (randomness) and necessity (law). Since mind is reducible to neither of those processes, we must introduce a third category of explanation – that is, intelligence.

When we look around the natural world, we can distinguish between those objects which can be readily accounted for by the dual action of chance and necessity, and those that cannot. We often ascribe such latter phenomena to agency. It is the ability to detect the activity of such rational deliberation that is foundational to the ID argument.

Should ID be properly regarded as a scientific theory? Yes and no. While ID theorists have not yet outlined a rigorous scientific hypothesis as far as the mechanistic process of the development of life (at least not one which has attracted a large body of support), ID is, in its essence, a scientific proposition – subject to the criteria of empirical testability and falsifiability. To arbitrarily exclude such a conclusion from science’s explanatory toolkit is to fundamentally truncate a significant portion of reality – like trying to limit oneself to material processes of randomness and law when attempting to explain the construction of a computer operating system.

Since rational deliberation characteristically leaves patterns which are distinguishable from those types of patterns which are left by non-intelligent processes, why is design so often shunned as a non-scientific explanation – as a ‘god-of-the-gaps’ style argument? Assuredly, if Darwinism is to be regarded as a mechanism which attempts to explain the appearance of design by non-intelligent processes (albeit hitherto unsuccessfully), it follows by extension that real design must be regarded as a viable candidate explanation. To say otherwise is to erect arbitrary parameters of what constitutes a valid explanation and what doesn’t. It is this arbitrarily constraints on explanation which leads to dogmatism and ideology – which, I think, we can all agree is not the goal or purpose of the scientific enterprise.

Comments
Green, I don't see me in that list. :-) Off to lake tomorrow. Back Sunday evening. Hope the thread is still alive then...tgpeeler
August 27, 2010
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tgpeeler @ 679: Some excellent points you make there, *especially* this:
One day several years ago, it suddenly occurred to me that for me to say: God is and is not sovereign is self-contradictory and therefore false. To say: Man is and isn’t “free” is self-contradictory and therefore false.
You've hit the nail on the head here. I'd love to comment on this in more depth, but it's silly-o'clock in the morning here(!), so just briefly, this is the way I see God's sovereignty and man's freedom (in relation to salvation) with regards to the different theological positions: 1. Calvinists: Man is not in ultimate control, God is in ultimate control 2. Normal arminians: Man is in ultimate control, and God is in ultimate control 3. Open-theist arminians: Man is in ultimate control, God is not 4. Molinist arminians: Similar to (2) but slightly less contradictoryGreen
August 27, 2010
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vivid @ 674 "First of all keep in mind that evil is not a THING” It has no ontological status." Do you view evil as a corruption of good, then? Without good, no evil can exist because if there were no good then there would simply be nothing. Is that it? (I agree with that, by the way.)tgpeeler
August 27, 2010
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Green @ 668 "This comes back to the earlier discussion here. No Calvinist knows how man can be determined yet also morally responsible. In other words, no-one knows how these two can both be true. But personally I think the bible affirms both, so I’m going to wait until heaven to find out how they fit together. [N.b. and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, bear in mind that on a libertarian model, we have no account of how men can be held morally responsible either]. Also, just as an aside, I think there are other biblical paradoxes that our finite minds can’t grasp either; it’s not just the moral responsibility issue. The trinity is one such example." I agree with you that the Bible affirms both. This may seem simplistic at first but it is the only way I have been able to reconcile the two apparently conflicting views of a Sovereign God and a "free," or perhaps better, a morally responsible man. Another way I have heard this put is how can God be Sovereign and mankind be "free"? One day several years ago, it suddenly occurred to me that for me to say: God is and is not sovereign is self-contradictory and therefore false. To say: Man is and isn't "free" is self-contradictory and therefore false. However, to say: God is Sovereign and mankind is "free" does not contain a self-contradiction. It then occurred to me that those are both truth claims about two different categories of B/being. One infinite and necessary (God) and the other finite and contingent (us). At that point, I thought, both of these statements are true. It's as though I said bananas are yellow and the sky is blue. I haven't contradicted myself and both statements are true because they are about different categories of things. If we think about it, of course God has to have known everything from beginning to end. He's sitting "outside" of time and space, after all even as He is throughout time and space. So He HAS to know ahead of time everything that could have been and will be. For our part, we have a rebellious nature, but we are still able to make moral choices. Else why would we be encouraged to good things and warned off of evil things? The fact that we are told to implies that we can. In the same way, unbelievers are told to be obedient to the gospel. Obedient is another word that implies a choice can be made. So it also looks like the Bible speaks of mankind's responsibility to make certain choices just as it speaks of God's sovereign will. So, God is Sovereign, the future is determined by Him AND mankind is responsible for making certain choices. And that's all that can be said about it. I don't see how it's possible to reconcile the finite with the infinite or the other way around. That's as reductive as it's possible to get. There is no logical contradiction in the two positions but they cannot be factored any further. They are simply both true statements. That's how I reconcile it, anyway.tgpeeler
August 27, 2010
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Vivid @ 674: Thanks! And no hurry, take your time. :)Green
August 27, 2010
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Molch @ 673: Thank you; that's very encouraging! And thanks again for all your great posts. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading them!Green
August 27, 2010
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Gpuccio @ 637: I read your posts at 593 and 605, and really liked your breakdown of causes into phenomenal causes and transcendental causes. I think that characterises your position very clearly. Thank you for that. With regards to our previous discussion about how libertarianism can (or can't) ground moral responsibility, I'm going to press you a little now. I hope that’s ok ;-) Am I right in thinking that you've conceded the following?: 1) That there is no parity between causation and explanation in agent-causal libertarianism (for example you write that "There is no human answer for why the agent chose A over B. That is a true mystery") and that 2) Agential control "just is" agential causation If so, then my next point is about quantum theory. Now we disagree over QM; you think it's explanatory whereas I think it's descriptive. If you're right on this, then your concession at (1) wouldn't matter because QM provides a counter-example to the parity thesis anyway (namely that “a cause must explain its effect"). So if you're right, you'd be left with: (a) An agent "just is" in control (& is therefore morally responsibile) Rather than: (b) An agent "just is" a cause and "just is" in control (& is therefore morally responsibile) So, my next question is, would you like to pursue the point about quantum mechanics, in order to get the agent-causal libertarian from two "just is's" to one "just is"? Again, I hope you don't mind me having pressed you a little on this. It would be nice to reach a solid clear conclusion though :) (Oh and if yu feel that I have in any way mischaracterised you at (1) and (2), please do say).Green
August 27, 2010
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RE 666 ( yikes) tgp "vivid @ 655 (keyboard is safe!)" I have been worrying about thatkeyboard all day. I am very relieved. Excellent post comments later. Vividvividbleau
August 27, 2010
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RE 668 Green "Maybe vivid could help out here (?)," I will try later however just a couple of quick thoughts to ponder. First of all keep in mind that evil is not a THING" It has no ontological status. Secondly I am of the opinion that evil can never be fully explained on the grounds of logic or reason becauase it is essentially illogical and uneasonable!! Vividvividbleau
August 27, 2010
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Loading time of this monumental thread on my server has slowly been building to ridiculous length, and the server just crashed four times half way through, so for technical reasons, this will unfortunately be my last comment. Clive @ 661: I agree with your assessment on the laws of nature and mathematics, but for the reasons illustrated in my example, I obviously disagree with you that the power of reasoning falls into that category. I am happy we could clarify our respective positions this far, and maybe we can pick a similar discussion up at some point on a shorter thread! :) Green: Compliments on more great posts! I'll be rooting for you from a distance! Thanks everyone!molch
August 27, 2010
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Here's something for those fond of reformed theology to consider. It's from a discussion of Rom. 9:18 in Earle's Word Meanings in the NT (p. 192). While on the subject of divine election it might be worthwhile to note a few items in Sanday and Headlam's summary of this topic. After pointing out the prominent place this holds in the OT, in both the Pentateuch and the Prophets, they say: "But between the conception as held by St. Paul's contemporaries and the OT there were striking differences. In the OT it is always looked upon as an act of condescension and love of God for Israel" (pp. 248-49). They continue: "But among the Rabbis the idea of Election has lost all its higher side. It is looked on as a covenant by which God is bound and over which He seems to have no control. Israel and God are bound in an indissoluble marriage... the holiness of Israel can never be be done away with, even although Israel sin, it still remains Israel... the worst Israelite is not profane like the heathen... no Israelite can go into Gehenna... all Israelites have their portion in the world to come... and much more to same effect." These beliefs-all of which are documented-were held by the Jewish rabbis of Paul's day. Israel was to enjoy God's favor and mercy, but the Gentiles were to be destroyed. As Sanday and Headlam say, "The Jew believed that his race was joined to God by a covenant which nothing could dissolve... This idea St. Paul combats." The emphasis on the absolute, divine predestination of each human soul for either heaven or hell has its roots in rabbinical Judaism, not in the NT. We must read Paul's Epistles in the light of the controversies of his day. The great apostle was correcting some extreme views of his contemporaries.riddick
August 27, 2010
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Gpuccio, thanks for drawing my attention to # 583; I just took a look at it. A couple of things. Firstly, you highlight the fact that moral responsibility is deeply intuitive, noting that even if a criminal comes to believe in determinism whilst he is in prison, he will never be able to believe that he is blameless. And I couldn't agree with you more on this: not only do I think moral responsibility is profoundly intuitive, like you, I also think it objectively exists! The question, then, is how we can ground this epistemic and objective reality. As I've been saying in our discussion, I don't think either the determinist or the libertarian can ground it; to me it’s simply a profound biblical mystery. The other point you make is that free will (not moral responsibility) is also deeply intuitive: we feel that we are free and that we can change things. And I also agree with this, though not not in a libertarian sense. We do have the intuition that we can change things; but we also have the intuition that we can only change things if we want to change things - i.e. the determinist definition of freedom. So I’m just not convinced that libertarian free will per se is intuitive. Also, GP, thanks for your latest post to me, I’m going to have another read over it now :)Green
August 27, 2010
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Gp RE 659 Frankly I read and reread 659 over and over again and could not for the life of me make heads or tails of it or how any of it was relevant to my arguments. However I got to thinking and said to myself “self gp is a reasonable person and there must be something I am missing. Why don’t you reread some of his other posts and see if they might shed some light and make sense of what was expressed in 659” I came across this in 648. “We cannot attribute to God the same concept of free will which is appropriate for us. In that sense, Gos can be said not to have free will. He simply does not need it! He is free, and He harbors no contradictions and no conflicts and no imperfections in Himself. So, He just does what He wants, and what He wants is good.” So as not to misrepresent you would you confirm for me that the following is an accurate representation of your views. God doesn’t have free will or free choice because God doesn’t need it. God doesn’t need it because he harbors no contradictions, no conflicts and is perfect. Man does have free will because he harbors contradictions, has conflicting desires and wants and is not perfect. Because he harbors contradictions etc, he needs free will. We need choice, because we need to perfect ourselves. Thanks Vividvividbleau
August 27, 2010
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Oh, I forgot to say, sorry, that quote from Calvin was from: Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God (London: James Clarke and Co., 1961), 181.Green
August 27, 2010
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Clive, thanks for your reply. A couple of thoughts:
So everything was front loaded from the beginning?
To me ‘front loading’ implies deism, whereby God starts everything off and then just sits back and relaxes. But I don't take this view of God, I think he takes a very active part in everyday life. However, I see your point, and whilst I wouldn't use the term 'front loaded', I would say that everything is determined (or 'predestined').
Who determines these causal particulars to be 'already in the soul'?
God. If God creates the soul directly, then he must determine the causal particulars, and even if he created it indirectly by making physical matter in such a way that it gives rise to these causal particulars, he would still indirectly determine it.
If you say God would not that make God the author of evil... ?
Maybe vivid could help out here (?), as I'm not very well read on reformed theology. I know, though, that Calvin was willing to say that God was the "remote cause" of evil, even if human agency was the "proximate cause". In Job, for example, we see versus such as "the Lord gives and the Lord takes away" and "they showed him sympathy... for all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him". So Calvin was willing to say that God was the remote cause of evil in these cases, even if the thieves and satan were the proximate causes. But, alongside this, Calvin also held that God was absolutely guiltless. How God could both be the ultimate cause of evil and guiltless, though, remained a complete mystery for him. On this matter, he wrote: "But how it was ordained by the foreknowledge and decree of God what man's future was without God being implicated as associate in the fault as the author and approver of transgressions, is clearly a secret so much excelling of the human mind, that I am not ashamed to confess ignorance" And I'm sorry, I don't have an answer either.
[Man] cannot be held accountable for the hand they were given to play
This comes back to the earlier discussion here. No Calvinist knows how man can be determined yet also morally responsible. In other words, no-one knows how these two can both be true. But personally I think the bible affirms both, so I'm going to wait until heaven to find out how they fit together. [N.b. and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, bear in mind that on a libertarian model, we have no account of how men can be held morally responsible either]. Also, just as an aside, I think there are other biblical paradoxes that our finite minds can't grasp either; it's not just the moral responsibility issue. The trinity is one such example. With regards to your point about objective reality, and us never being able to know it... could you possibly spell that out for me? I'm not sure I completely follow your line of argument. Thanks :)Green
August 27, 2010
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To make the attack on naturalism more specific, should anyone want to respond, it goes like this. If the naturalist, materialist, physicalist view of mankind is correct then mind = brain. In other words, we are just sensory processing machines, somehow coordinated by a 3 pound brain that is no more than 10 trillion or so neural connections, etc... and that has no connection to the (physical) world other than through our five senses. This is what naturalism claims. It's called the causal closure of nature. If this was a true picture, I would be prompted to ask: If all I can know about the world is from sense experience, then how can I 1) be aware of abstract things that cannot be sensed? 2) be aware of errors in my sense perception? 3) account for memory, since what I know is necessarily, by definition, restricted to what I sense? and 4) account for my unified and coherent experience of the multitudinous sense experiences that bombard me on a second by second basis? (One would expect, a priori, that without the presence of some coordinating or mediating entity, a mind, say, that our experience would be discordant and incoherent.)tgpeeler
August 27, 2010
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vivid @ 655 (keyboard is safe!) "For all the talk of free will we are faced with the fact that our will is not free not to sin, indeed each and everyone of us must choose to sin. But even in this case we do have free choice, we sin because that is what we want to do." I have to say that I agree with this. It's our nature to sin. Paul discusses this in Romans 5-7. His concluding remarks in v24-25 pertain: "v24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? v25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin." Upon further review, I think that this question is even more complex than I (at least) have considered. No NT scholar here (although I have access to a few and they will soon be on the hot seat!) but it looks like there are a couple of things going on in these verses, the first is regeneration. Now we have a new nature. The second is the distinction between body and soul, so maybe, under the ministry of the Holy Spirit, we are able to resist sin in our minds but even after salvation, not in our bodies. This would explain much, I think. For my own self, I am certainly going to be more careful in throwing around the term "free will" in the future. At least I have learned that. Even so, I still think that this is in large part, not completely, but in large part, a question of terminology. There must be a word or phrase that captures the idea of "free" choices within the confines or restrictions of our nature AND allows for moral responsibility. For after all, as has been pointed out, even God is not "free" to sin (or be irrational) since that would violate His nature and His nature is unchanging. The other thing that I find interesting about this is that our senses, our bodies, deceive us. We perceive the pencil in water as bent. We imagine a mirage to be water. We see railroad tracks converge in the distance. In addition to this being another argument for some kind of "free" will (we overcome our sense impressions with reason to correct the error our senses have given us and how could we do that if we are only physical, mind=brain, beings?) it perhaps has a theological component as well. Perhaps our bodies deceive us about sin, too. (How could something that "feels" this good be wrong? Say.) In other words, I'm wondering about just how far we can really understand how corrupt we are since we still live in the corruption? Imagine sitting down to a steak dinner on the one hand and across the table is a pile of (pardon me) manure. We will ALWAYS sit down to eat the steak. But perhaps the deception of our "flesh" is such that sometimes, even though our mind says "steak" our flesh says "otherwise" and we go with that. It bears more study and contemplation.tgpeeler
August 27, 2010
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molch @ 650 Sure. Thanks.tgpeeler
August 27, 2010
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Green,
But the regress of my causally efficacious inner states stops when my ‘soul’ (or whatever you want to call one’s rational substance) came into existence.
So your whole life (thoughts, emotions, everything) is literally caused by a front-loaded sort of soul-packing? And you're life and every thought and sensibility is being unrolled like a rug from that front-loaded beginning? And who determines these causal particulars to be already "in the soul"? If you say God, would that not make God the author of evil, since anyone who commits evil cannot really help it, because they're fully determined by their set of soul circumstances, and cannot be held accountable for the hand they were given to play? Not to mention, that when it comes to knowledge, either you were given knowledge as part of the whole soul-package, or you weren't, and whatever "knowledge" you have may or may not be actually true, it would only be actually true by God deciding to make it true in the causal package. But we know somethings are believed by people that are not true. But we wouldn't even know that much unless it was already built-in, but we would have no objective form of comparison. We could not compare any truth to "reality" for reality is something known also, and would be just as subject to the beginning soul-circumstances. You could never get outside of this "whole-show" problem of knowledge to even objectively know that you were pre-determined. No truth or falsity could be argued on such terms, for the entire thing, all knowledge, would be off the table entirely, for none of it would be learned objectively and nothing could be compared to it, nor it to anything else. Everyone would be playing with counters. Clive Hayden
August 27, 2010
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Hi Clive, I think the regress of causes simpliciter stops with God at the moment of his creation. But the regress of my causally efficacious inner states stops when my 'soul' (or whatever you want to call one's rational substance) came into existence. This could have been at the moment of conception via a direct act of God (as Cartesian dualists tend to say) or it could have been later in embryogeneis and could have happened naturally (as some emergent dualists say).Green
August 27, 2010
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Green, Thanks for your last reply. I have a question, how do you avoid an infinite regress of causes? How do you avoid everything being, in their own turn, caused by something else?Clive Hayden
August 27, 2010
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molch,
Thus, the power of reasoning itself, which varies among people, becomes a causal factor in how the choice turns out.
It does help clarify how you see it, thank you. I still see it as factors are not agents, they are inert with regard to being actually causal, just as my illustration regarding the laws of nature and laws of mathematics are not causal. Something else has to get a move on.Clive Hayden
August 27, 2010
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tgpeeler - apology appreciatedmolch
August 27, 2010
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vivid: thank you for the clarifications. Briefly, I can repeat what you probably alredy know: I agree with you about God. I don't agree about us. God does not need free will (or free choice, I really don't see big differences), because He is completely free. What shouild He choose, if not His free "desire"? We are not in the same condition. We have relative desires. Some of them are good, some bad. And we are not free. But we can feel what will open us to God's grace, and what will not. And we can choose. We need choice, because we need to perfect ourselves. We need to change, and to change for good. Otherwise, we will change for bad. God does no need that. He is perfect. But for us, the story is different. You ask: “What exactly is our will free from”. I would say: from complete determination. You quote the phrase about "non posse non peccare ‘not able not to sin’". I interpret it differently, and not as a negation of free will in humans. It is true that we all know sin, it is part of our experience. We may not "not sin" in absolute. But we can choose to sin or not to sin in any definite circumstance. With the grace of God, good choices will bring us to sin less, and less. It's a path which strives towards perfection. And it is based on a good use of our free will.gpuccio
August 27, 2010
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---vivid: "What can be a greater sign of an imperfect and immature state of the will than that, with good and evil before it, it should be in suspense what to do?” The will is a faculty that grows stronger or weaker depending on how its agent uses it. The question is less about a decision maker's suspense about what should be done, a problem for the intellect, and more about his power of will to hit the moral target provided by the intellect. Hence, smokers know that they should stop, but the chains of habit have weakened their will. In this case, the will, which decides what to love and not love, has come to prefer something that destroys the body in spite of the intellect's protests. Under the circumstances, the will becomes perverted and even begins to persuade the intellect that it is simply a harmless recreation. It is precisely this same phenomenon that causes many materialsits to deny free will. To the extent that they behave badly and break all the moral laws, they rationalize their condition by claiming [a] no moral laws exist, or [b] they have no free will that would allow them to resist all their negative impulses. A man who does not conform his behavior to a philosophy of life will find a philosophy of life that confoms to his behavior.StephenB
August 27, 2010
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tgp "That is a great question. I wish I’d thought to pose it like that myself" Me too, in the interest of full disclosure all my really good ideas I stole from somebody else LOL. In this case I dont remember where I first saw that question...maybe Augustine? Vividvividbleau
August 27, 2010
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RE 653 tgp we are in 100% agreement. Vividvividbleau
August 27, 2010
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RE 647 gp "This is a statement that I certainly agree with. I would put it this way. We cannot attribute to God the same concept of free will which is appropriate for us In that sense, God can be said not to have free will He simply does not need it! He is free, and He harbors no contradictions and no conflicts and no imperfections in Himself. So, He just does what He wants, and what He wants is good." Gp now we are getting somewhere :) I agree God does not have free will. Now at the risk of tgp throwing his computer at me :) neither do we. Before that computer goes crashing through the window let me quickly add but God does have free choice and so do we!! By denying free will I am NOT denying free choice!! I see them as two different things. Let me expand as I think at a minimum you might understand my position a little better. Here is what I wrote in 540. “I have always thought of the will as something like a horse with a rider, or the steering wheel of a car. The will is turned this way or that by the rider of the horse or the driver of the car. If it is not turned then no choice happens. In short the will is not free from the rider or the driver, indeed can never be free.” As it relates to God , grant me the assumption that God is necessarily good, God cannot not be good. This necessary goodness is one of Gods attributes all of which are necessary attributes. If God is necessarily good all of Gods choices must be good. One might ask “Is God free to choose evil’? I would answer in the affirmative, yes God is free to choose evil with this caveat, if God wants to! However this leads to another question “Can God want to choose evil’? Here I would answer negatively. Although God can choose evil if He wants, He cannot ever want to. Now this does not put any limits on God because there is no restraining power prohibiting Gods choice other than God himself, His being, His nature if you will. Note however in all of this Gods will is never free from Gods being or self. In all cases Gods choices, his will, like a steering will is turned toward the direction of good by God. The above fits all my qualifications for a free choice. God chooses what He most wants without compulsion and in accordance with His own desires. The choices are choices that flow from His being, from His self. His choices are self determined choices and what can be a freer choice that the ability to choose what we want? Lets drill down to ourselves. Like God our wills are not free from our being, our nature, our self. This does not mean we do not have free choice. We like God are free to choose whatever we most want. No choice can be freer than that. Like a steering wheel we turn our wills this way and that depending on what we most want. Like God our wills are not free from our self, our being, our nature. gp “That is free will: partial freedom, in a worlds of imperfection and contingency” This brings me back to a question I asked a few days ago which is “What exactly is our will free from”? Instead of having free will we recognize that this is not quite the whole story, what we have is a limited free will. This is a good start. This is why I think Luther thought that the term “free will” was an empty term. We keep saying we have free will yet upon reflection there seems to be more things the will is not free from than there is it is free from. Most importantly it is not free from Augustines observation non posse non peccare ‘not able not to sin’ It is my theological position that no one born into this world is free not to will to sin. Not all share this sentiment, fair enough. However I think this is an orthodox position for the classical Christian. If this is so then right off the bat we are faced with this fact. For all the talk of free will we are faced with the fact that our will is not free not to sin, indeed each and everyone of us must choose to sin. But even in this case we do have free choice, we sin because that is what we want to do. Gp hopefully the above will give you a better insight into my head so to speak. Vividvividbleau
August 27, 2010
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Vividbleau @ 644 “Which brings me to something I wrote in 567 and I would like your thoughts on it. I think an argument can be made that the highest and the perfect state of the will is a state of necessity. Is God not virtuous? God cannot choose evil and it is certain that he will choose good, does this lack of ability to choose evil mean that the certainty that He will always choose good undermines the heart of virtue itself? Does the necessity of Gods choices makes Gods choices an illusion and not a real choice?” I think there is a lot to discuss in this short paragraph. I agree with your first sentence and would answer “yes” to the first question you pose. Now it gets interesting. I do believe that God cannot choose evil but I do not think it undermines the heart of virtue itself. Rather I think it defines the heart of virtue. That God cannot choose evil is just how it is because of Who He is and it could be no other way. In a rational world the Necessary Being (to start getting to your other comment) must be Necessarily good. This is kind of like Socrates’ dialogue with Euthyphro about whether a thing was good because God commanded it, or did God command it because it was good? Neither is correct, as you say. God’s character is good and a thing is good because it reflects God’s character. The mistake Socrates made was to try to separate “good” from God. Thus he failed to recognize that the good is not good because God said it was. Neither does God say something is good because it is, apart from God, good. I’m probably not saying this well. Thus, God’s character, does not undermine virtue, it defines virtue. It’s the ultimate standard of virtue. Or so I say. As far as God’s choices being an illusion, I think the problem here is one of categories. God is an infinite, necessary Being and we are finite, contingent beings. I think that means that we can only understand God analogically. We just cannot grasp, really grasp, the infinite. What is it like to be infinite? What is it like to have always existed and known everything? What is it like to be “all powerful” but still unable to choose to do evil? We can’t understand any of that. We can only know some things about the infinite. It’s like me and physics. I know some things about physics but I don’t really KNOW physics. It’s just beyond me. But back to God’s character, it also seems to me that a Necessary Being must also necessarily be the way He is. It seems that reason really is the ultimate authority as to how things are and what is true. “What can be a greater sign of an imperfect and immature state of the will than that, with good and evil before it, it should be in suspense what to do?” Agreed. That is a great question. I wish I'd thought to pose it like that myself. I think GEM has a valid point but it's still a great question. In fact, G's point illustrates the imperfect and immature nature of our intellects. I think. If I'm following.tgpeeler
August 27, 2010
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PS: It would do us all some good to dip into Mesillat Yesharim [= "The Path of the Just" i.e. from Prov 4:18] by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto (1707-1746); here. This is the classic and prime ethics text of the Yeshiva.kairosfocus
August 27, 2010
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