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Intelligent Design and the Demarcation Problem

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One common objection which is often raised regarding the proposition of real design (as opposed to design that is only apparent) is the criticism that design is unable to be falsified by the ruthless rigour of empirical scrutiny. Science, we are told, must restrict its explanatory devices to material causes. This criterion of conformity to materialism as a requisite for scientific merit is an unfortunate consequence of a misconstrual of the principal of uniformitarianism with respect to the historical sciences. Clearly, a proposition – if it is to be considered properly scientific – must constrict its scope to categories of explanation with which we have experience. It is this criterion which allows a hypothesis to be evaluated and contrasted with our experience of that causal entity. Explanatory devices should not be abstract, lying beyond the scope of our uniform and sensory experience of cause-and-effect.

This, naturally, brings us on to the question of what constitutes a material cause. Are all causes, which we have experience with, reducible to the material world and the interaction of chemical reactants? It lies as fundamentally axiomatic to rationality that we be able to detect the presence of other minds. This is what C.S. Lewis described as “inside knowledge”. Being rational agents ourselves, we have an insider’s knowledge of what it is to be rational – what it is to be intelligent. We know that it is possible for rational beings to exist and that such agents leave behind them detectable traces of their activity. Consciousness is a very peculiar entity. Consciousness interacts with the material world, and is detectable by its effects – but is it material itself? I have long argued in favour of substance dualism – that is, the notion that the mind is itself not reducible to the material and chemical constituents of the brain, nor is it reducible to the dual forces of chance and necessity which together account for much of the other phenomena in our experience. Besides the increasing body of scientific evidence which lends support to this view, I have long pondered whether it is possible to rationally reconcile the concept of human autonomy (free will) and materialistic reductionism with respect to the mind. I have thus concluded that free will exists (arguing otherwise leads to irrationality or reductio ad absurdum) and that hence materialism – at least with respect to the nature of consciousness – must be false if rationality is to be maintained.

My reasoning can be laid out as follows:

1: If atheism is true, then so is materialism.

2: If materialism is true, then the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

3: If the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain, then human autonomy and consciousness are illusory because our free choices are determined by the dual forces of chance and necessity.

4: Human autonomy exists.

From 3 & 4,

5: Therefore, the mind is not reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

From 2 & 5,

6: Therefore, materialism is false.

From 1 & 6,

7: Therefore, atheism is false.

Now, where does this leave us? Since we have independent reason to believe that the mind is not reducible to material constituents, materialistic explanations for the effects of consciousness are not appropriate explanatory devices. How does mind interact with matter? Such a question cannot be addressed in terms of material causation because the mind is not itself a material entity, although in human agents it does interact with the material components of the brain on which it exerts its effects. The immaterial mind thus interacts with the material brain to bring about effects which are necessary for bodily function. Without the brain, the mind is powerless to bring about its effects on the body. But that is not to say that the mind is a component of the brain.

We have further independent reason to expect a non-material cause when discussing the question of the origin of the Universe. Being an explanation for the existence of the natural realm itself – complete with its contingent natural laws and mathematical expressions – natural law, with which we have experience, cannot be invoked as an explanatory factor without reasoning in a circle (presupposing the prior existence of the entity which one is attempting to account for). When faced with explanatory questions with respect to particular phenomena, then, the principle of methodological materialism breaks down because we possess independent philosophical reason to suppose the existence of a supernatural (non-material) cause.

Material causes are uniformly reducible to the mechanisms and processes of chance (randomness) and necessity (law). Since mind is reducible to neither of those processes, we must introduce a third category of explanation – that is, intelligence.

When we look around the natural world, we can distinguish between those objects which can be readily accounted for by the dual action of chance and necessity, and those that cannot. We often ascribe such latter phenomena to agency. It is the ability to detect the activity of such rational deliberation that is foundational to the ID argument.

Should ID be properly regarded as a scientific theory? Yes and no. While ID theorists have not yet outlined a rigorous scientific hypothesis as far as the mechanistic process of the development of life (at least not one which has attracted a large body of support), ID is, in its essence, a scientific proposition – subject to the criteria of empirical testability and falsifiability. To arbitrarily exclude such a conclusion from science’s explanatory toolkit is to fundamentally truncate a significant portion of reality – like trying to limit oneself to material processes of randomness and law when attempting to explain the construction of a computer operating system.

Since rational deliberation characteristically leaves patterns which are distinguishable from those types of patterns which are left by non-intelligent processes, why is design so often shunned as a non-scientific explanation – as a ‘god-of-the-gaps’ style argument? Assuredly, if Darwinism is to be regarded as a mechanism which attempts to explain the appearance of design by non-intelligent processes (albeit hitherto unsuccessfully), it follows by extension that real design must be regarded as a viable candidate explanation. To say otherwise is to erect arbitrary parameters of what constitutes a valid explanation and what doesn’t. It is this arbitrarily constraints on explanation which leads to dogmatism and ideology – which, I think, we can all agree is not the goal or purpose of the scientific enterprise.

Comments
Stephen, thanks. I have been truly enjoying this thread, which, I believe, has been unusually deep, rewarding and harmonious. Maybe it's easier to debate free will than origins... :) Anyway, I really want to thank all who have contributed to the discussion (Green first of all).gpuccio
August 18, 2010
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Errata corrige: in the previous post, "berbal" should obviously be "verbal". I usually don't care too much for typos, but I did not want anyone to spend time asking himself what "berbal" may mean... :)gpuccio
August 18, 2010
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Green: Thank you for your answer. In general, what you say confirms to me my opinion: that compatibilism is only a new berbal formulation of determinism, whose purpose is mainly to "comfort" believers in determinism about the logical consequemces of what they believe. I am afraid that i cannot say much more about the main points, because both you and me have explained our positions clearly enough. I could maybe remark that the concept itself of "purpose" implies a belief, maybe not necessarily explicit, in PAP, and therefore is either evidence of free will or a mental delusion, but I doubt that would be specially useful, given the general trend of compatibilist thought. Instead, I may perhaps add one relevant point about your last remark. You say: You seem to be saying that something is moral if it in accord with the agent’s conscience. But I don’t think this is all that relevant. I’m not asking ‘what makes something moral’? Instead I’m asking, ‘how can the libertarian ground moral responsibility’? I argued that they can’t because moral responsibility requires that: (1) The agent be the source of the action (2) The agent be in control of that action And agent-causal libertarianism gets you (1) but not (2) – so it cannot ground moral responsibility. Like I’ve said several times, I have yet to see an account of libertarian free will that can ground moral responsibility. So at the moment, I don’t see compatibilist’s / determinists as any worse off than libertarians in this respect (and I see them as better off in other respects, such as with regards to agential control – one of the necessary conditions for agency). . Your insistence about point 2), that control of action is necessary to ground moral responsibility, a condition which I feel no reason to agree with, has made me realize the possible reason of this misunderstanding. Control of action is usually required for the concept of human responsibility, as it is usually applied in law or in social institutions. That is fine, and I certainly appreciate that. But I don't believe that human and social responsibility are the same as moral responsibility. It is good that human laws and human reasoning be in some way inspired, at least to a certain degree, to moral concepts, but that does not mean that they are the same as those moral concepts. So, here is the difference: human responsibility requires control of action, because human reasoning is tied to external facts: in law, you cannot be held responsible for the intention to achieve an evil result, if you don't succeed in your intentional course of action. On the contrary, in many cases you are held responsible for some negative result of your actions, even if you really had never any inner connection with that result. There is nothing wrong in that. Human morality, social morality, are imperfect and external. They have their reasons, but they are not perfect, and they have to rely on social conventions and on social opportunity. But true morality is different. True morality is all about inner actions, about intentions, not about results. We are responsible of our inner actions, whatever the external result, whatever control we have, or have not, of the final exit. Human morality is about our relationship with others, and about their expectation about us. True morality is about God and truth, and our duty towards them. So, I maintain that control of "outer actions", of "outer results", is in no way necessary to ground true moral responsibility. Control of intention is enough for that.gpuccio
August 18, 2010
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GPuccio @128. That was a truly wonderful post.StephenB
August 18, 2010
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Kairosfocus, you suggest that I am setting up straw men, but this is not the case. Let me be very explicit about what I have been arguing against. The SEP article entitled ‘Free Will’ goes into lots of different accounts of free will. However, many of these are consistent with determinism. I have not been arguing against any of these definitions of ‘free will’ (indeed, I am a proponent of one of them!). What I have been specfiically been arguing against here is the type of free will that says that free will is inconsistent with determinism. These are the ‘incompatibilist’ accounts of free will (so called because they see free will and determinism as incompatible), and I have been referring to them here as libertarian accounts of free will – to distinguish them from determinist accounts of free will. Libertarian accounts of free will fall into 3 main categories: (1) Non-causal theories (2) Event-causal theories (3) Agent-causal theories I have spent most of my energy arguing against (3) because that is the account that GP and StephenB seemed closest to in their writings. And (3), actually DOES entail that agents ultimately cause actions for no reason at all. (1) and (2) don’t necessarily entail this. But I haven’t been arguing against (1) or (2) because no-one here seems to be defending it. I will be happy to make a few quick comments on (1) and (2) if you like, but I haven’t said much about them thus far because no-one here has been defending them. In fact, GP explicitly said that he doesn't think (2) is any use.Green
August 18, 2010
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Green: I think you need to modify what you keep saying about "libertarian Free Will" in light of the objections made above and the points in say the SEP on Free Will. Otherwise, you are knocking over a strawman. Freedom of action does no0t mean a want of reasons, but it does imply a decision to follow those reasons, and not, say, the reasons for another course or impulses or whatever. Influences and constraints are real, but that does not mean that hey determine and control. The difference between contributing, necessary and sufficient causal factors has already been pointed out. So has the significance of the personal, unified self-transcending conscious identity that integrates experiences and makes decisions etc. including he decisions implicit in the course of deliberative reasoning, individual or collective. I fear much of what is happening above is that you are projecting a strawman onto those you have exchanged with, based on the particular schools of thought you are familiar with. But something is going on outside your a-causal free choice straw-box. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 18, 2010
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N.b. someone has just pointed out to me that I shouldn't use the terms 'determinism' and 'compatibilism' interchangeably because compatibilism embraces both determinism and human responsibility, whereas determinism does not necessarily embrace human responsibility. So, apologies to Molch for any confusion on that; I'm a compatibilist; embracing both determinism and human responsibility (the latter based on biblical grounds).Green
August 18, 2010
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GP: Thank you for your interesting thoughts. I’ll just make a couple of quick comments :)
I said: Whilst these mental states are determined (by all the previous factors I mentioned above), you still get a robust account of agency. You replied: No, you just get a robust account of two deterministic models interacting, which is the same as one deterministic model with two levels of organization. The existence of an interaction between conscious states and physical reality is no guarantee of agency, no more than the existence of a software interacting with hardware is agency. A causal relationship is not the same as agency. We must be cautious with words, they can sidetrack us. Agency is a word which has always been reserved to experiences with a subjective intuition of free will, and not to merely causal models. Changing the use of the word does not change facts.
I’m not sure how the word ‘agency’ has been used historically, but most working in this area define agency as ‘purposeful-agent based production’, which is said to consist of the following 3 elements (none of which entail libertarianism): (1) The ability to represent ones own goals. (This is basically the problem of intentionality, namely how mental states come to be about other things). [We haven’t touched on this at all]. (2) The ability to achieve these goals. This can be understood as the problem of mental causation; how mental states come to be causally efficacious. [I had brief interchange on this with Daguerreotype Process, but since then I’ve just been assuming it.] (3) Finally, these representations and subsequent actions must be the goals and actions of the agent – in the sense that they provide the entity’s own reasons for acting, and in the sense that the agent is in control of them. [And we’ve touched on (3), but only as it relates to libertarianism, not as it relates to agency simpliciter.] These 3 elements give you agency (purposeful agent-based production). Libertarian agency is something different: it requires something in addition to this (e.g. PAP, ultimate control). But a simple account of purposeful-agent-based production only needs (1) (2) and (3). I’m pretty sure even Tim O’Connor (an agent-causal libertarian) agrees that you can have agency simpliciter without libertarianism. Now you could argue that agency (as defined by (1) (2) and (3) ) without libertarianism is not agency worth having. But I’ve yet to see why. Or you could argue that agency as defined (1) (2) and (3) is worth having, but that you also need something more if you are going to give an account of moral responsibility etc. I think this is Tim O’Connor’s position and is why he tries to add libertarianism to agency.
I said: Indeed, as long as mental states are causally efficacious (which I think they are) then human agents can make a real difference in the world. You replied: This is really nonsense (and I say that with the utmost respect for you, please believe me). It’s the same as saying that, as long as covalent bonds are causally efficacious, then they can make a real difference in the world of biochemistry. Something which is part of deterministic system, does not “make a difference”. The system is just what it is, with its parts, and could not be different in any way. The word “difference” means something else, and is not appropriate here. My idea is that compatibilists are trying to “mess things up” to be able to re-enter words and meaning which apply only to free will models into a deterministic model. From that point of view, I suppose pure determinists are better, because at least they are not trying to escape from the consequences of what they believe to be true through intellectual games.
I’m sorry, I don’t understand why this is nonsense. By a “real difference” I mean that determinists still attribute to agents causally efficacious mental states. Thus agents can still make a real difference to the causal flow of a purely physical world. Things like ‘desires’, ‘intentions’, ‘beliefs’, ‘goals’ – all these things can affect and alter the physical realm. The fact that it is deterministic does not take away from this fact.
I said: they are still able to deliberate and compare alternative courses of action You replied: Here I really can’t follow you any more: what do you mean with “deliberate”? Deliberate what? And didn’t you say that you don’t believe in PAP? So, how are “alternative courses of action” possible, least of all “comparable”?
By deliberate, I mean that the agent can go through the process of weighing up the pros and cons of a decision. They can mentally compare alternative courses of action. There is nothing inconsistent with determinism here. You’re right - I deny PAP and I wouldn’t say that all these alternative courses of action are actually possible – but that is only because once the agent will have good reasons to act on one of them. This is in contrast to the libertarian, who will ultimately choose one of the courses of action for no reason at all.
I said:As I’ve already noted, (1) is also a difficulty for all libertarian accounts, so compatibilism is no worse off here (and I’ve already given an account of how I can be justified in personally thinking that moral responsibility still exists). You replied: I don’t see the difficulty for my kind of libertarian account. Moral responsibility is grounded in the simple fact that different possible actions have different “moral” meaning for the agent. They can be in harmony with his higher aspirations, or not. That is the basis for the universal concept of “moral conscience”, and I don’t think it is a difficult intellectual achievement: human beings of all kinds have spontaneously understood that concept for aeons, and they still do. Maybe philosophers are smarter, anyway…
You seem to be saying that something is moral if it in accord with the agent’s conscience. But I don’t think this is all that relevant. I’m not asking ‘what makes something moral’? Instead I’m asking, ‘how can the libertarian ground moral responsibility’? I argued that they can’t because moral responsibility requires that: (1) The agent be the source of the action (2) The agent be in control of that action And agent-causal libertarianism gets you (1) but not (2) - so it cannot ground moral responsibility. Like I’ve said several times, I have yet to see an account of libertarian free will that can ground moral responsibility. So at the moment, I don’t see compatibilist’s / determinists as any worse off than libertarians in this respect (and I see them as better off in other respects, such as with regards to agential control - one of the necessary conditions for agency).Green
August 18, 2010
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Ok, a couple of real quick responses: Upright BiPed:
Green, I think the problem is obvious. (1) Determinism being true and humans being only physical 2) Determinism being true and humans being both mental/conscious ["Whilst these mental states are determined"] and physical (my position). By your definition it would seem that (should you choose to recognize as such) the vapor physically rising from a pot of boiling water could be mental – it is certainly as determined.
But I don’t see mental states as like vapour rising from the neurons of the brain. Recall that I said I’m a substance dualist, and I think that causation runs in all these directions: 1) from the physical to the mental 2) from the mental to the physical 3) from the mental to the mental Your analogy depicts a scenrio where only (1) is in place, meaning that reasons can’t infliuence physical action (2), and that reasons can’t influence later reasons (3). But I don’t ascribe to that view. You could say that I think causation is tri-directional.Green
August 18, 2010
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KF, thanks. Your feedback and contribution is always truly appreciated.gpuccio
August 18, 2010
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F/N: SB will love this, from Chesterton's essay on The Wind and the Trees: __________________ >>I am sitting under tall trees, with a great wind boiling like surf about the tops of them, so that their living load of leaves rocks and roars in something that is at once exultation and agony. I feel, in fact, as if I were actually sitting at the bottom of the sea among mere anchors and ropes, while over my head and over the green twilight of water sounded the everlasting rush of waves and the toil and crash and shipwreck of tremendous ships . . . . As I look at these top-heavy giants tortured by an invisible and violent witchcraft, a phrase comes back into my mind. I remember a little boy of my acquaintance who was once walking in Battersea Park under just such torn skies and tossing trees. He did not like the wind at all; it blew in his face too much; it made him shut his eyes; and it blew off his hat, of which he was very proud. He was, as far as I remember, about four. After complaining repeatedly of the atmospheric unrest, he said at last to his mother, "Well, why don't you take away the trees, and then it wouldn't wind." Nothing could be more intelligent or natural than this mistake. Any one looking for the first time at the trees might fancy that they were indeed vast and titanic fans, which by their mere waving agitated the air around them for miles. Nothing, I say, could be more human and excusable than the belief that it is the trees which make the wind. Indeed, the belief is so human and excusable that it is, as a matter of fact, the belief of about ninety-nine out of a hundred of the philosophers, reformers, sociologists, and politicians of the great age in which we live. My small friend was, in fact, very like the principal modern thinkers; only much nicer. . . . . . In the little apologue or parable which he has thus the honour of inventing, the trees stand for all visible things and the wind for the invisible. The wind is the spirit which bloweth where it listeth; the trees are the material things of the world which are blown where the spirit lists. The wind is philosophy, religion, revolution; the trees are cities and civilisations. We only know that there is a wind because the trees on some distant hill suddenly go mad. We only know that there is a real revolution because all the chimney-pots go mad on the whole skyline of the city. Just as the ragged outline of a tree grows suddenly more ragged and rises into fantastic crests or tattered tails, so the human city rises under the wind of the spirit into toppling temples or sudden spires. No man has ever seen a revolution. Mobs pouring through the palaces, blood pouring down the gutters, the guillotine lifted higher than the throne, a prison in ruins, a people in arms--these things are not revolution, but the results of revolution. You cannot see a wind; you can only see that there is a wind. So, also, you cannot see a revolution; you can only see that there is a revolution. And there never has been in the history of the world a real revolution, brutally active and decisive, which was not preceded by unrest and new dogma in the reign of invisible things. All revolutions began by being abstract. Most revolutions began by being quite pedantically abstract. The wind is up above the world before a twig on the tree has moved. So there must always be a battle in the sky before there is a battle on the earth. Since it is lawful to pray for the coming of the kingdom, it is lawful also to pray for the coming of the revolution that shall restore the kingdom. It is lawful to hope to hear the wind of Heaven in the trees. It is lawful to pray "Thine anger come on earth as it is in Heaven." . . . . . The great human dogma, then, is that the wind moves the trees. The great human heresy is that the trees move the wind. When people begin to say that the material circumstances have alone created the moral circumstances, then they have prevented all possibility of serious change. For if my circumstances have made me wholly stupid, how can I be certain even that I am right in altering those circumstances? The man who represents all thought as an accident of environment is simply smashing and discrediting all his own thoughts-- including that one. To treat the human mind as having an ultimate authority is necessary to any kind of thinking, even free thinking. And nothing will ever be reformed in this age or country unless we realise that the moral fact comes first . . . >> ___________________ Worth a thought or two. Typical GKC, I'd say. Gkairosfocus
August 18, 2010
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GP: Very well said, as usual. I particularly liked your summary of Rom 7 - 8 in a sentence or two. Your brunch break has been put to good use! Gkairosfocus
August 18, 2010
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PS: BTW, one consequence of the above for determinists is that we are not really having a deliberative, responsible discussion. We are only exerting controlling, manipulative rhetorical [or stronger . . .] power influences on one another, as we have been programmed to. So, it is no surprise that the foundations of civil democratic society and ethics of reasonable discussion are at stake in discussions like this; especially if a consensus builds up in power institutions that undermines respect for right reason and reasonableness, instead substituting that the point of communication [and thus, inter alia, education] is manipulation by subtle control forces. That easily explains the sort of stunts we keep on seeing from the NCSE, US NAS, teacher's associations and unions, the media, and even text and reference books and works. If the issue is power and persuasion by whatever means are effective, then truth, fairness and moral restraint go out the window. Welcome to Star Trek world, the reality.kairosfocus
August 18, 2010
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Innerbling: What you call "alignment" is exactly the manifestation of free will, as I have tried to say in my previous post. It is an inner action, essentially transcendental, which allows us moment by moment to be receptive to truth and good, or not. Compatibilism denies that inner alignment, or just treats it as one of the many pre-existing mental states, in fact denying free will. Only a transendental conception of that fundamental choice allows for true free will and true moral responsibility. That's why I don't really like the word "libertarian". The point is not that we are "free" (we are not, we are influenced by so many circumstances). The point is that there is a space of freedom in our innermost reactions to those circumstances: exactly the "alignment" of which you speak. Regarding your very interesting observation: If our behavior was not caused by anything (libertarianism) then we could see a person acting like a saint for 2 weeks and like a psycho for the next 2 which is not the case. Well, sometimes we do, unfortunately. But you are right, that is not usually the case, and that opens the discussion to another important aspect. As I said before, in my model free will is not absolute freedom. It is not control, it is not really even power of causation. It is power of choice about our reactions to circumstances. But, as I said, our range of possible reactions is not always the same, and is determined (yes, that one is determined) by our previous states. And this is the important point: our current states are influenced (not determined) by our previous use of our free will. But there is some inertia in the way and time that our use of free will (good or bad) can change our inner states. So, a long use of free will in a good way will in time change our inner states for the better, and expand the range of our possible actions. IOW, it will give us greater inner freedom. A long, repeated bad use of free will will make us slaves of our existing conditions, and our range of reactions to them will become narrower (but will always exist). A saint has great inner freedom: he is not probably going to loose it just for some occasional wrong use of his free will. On the contrary, an egotist has scarce inner freedom: he can change, but he will have to struggle for some time before his good use of free will can give him greater inner freedom. This inertial aspect is the cause of many confusions. Free will is always present, is always a resource fully available to anyone. But the range of its power (our cumulative inner freedom) changes slowly in time, according to our use (or abuse) of our free will.gpuccio
August 18, 2010
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Green: As I’ve already noted, (1) is also a difficulty for all libertarian accounts, so compatibilism is no worse off here (and I’ve already given an account of how I can be justified in personally thinking that moral responsibility still exists. I don't see the difficulty for my kind of libertarian account. Moral responsibility is grounded in the simple fact that different possible actions have different "moral" meaning for the agent. They can be in harmony with his higher aspirations, or not. That is the basis for the universal concept of "moral conscience", and I don't think it is a difficult intellectual achievement: human beings of all kinds have spontaneously understood that concept for aeons, and they still do. Maybe philosophers are smarter, anyway... With regards to (2), that doesn’t follow, since as long as humans have the desire for self-improvement, they can act on it. No, they "must" act on it. Again you use "can", betraying a free will model while you deny it. And what about those who "must" act "against" their desire for self-improvement, because their inner states command that? What about those who "must" ruin their life through drug dependency, or dependency on fame desire, egotism, pettiness, or any other unpleasant human qualities? What possibilities of "self-improvement" are left to them? With regards to (3), I’m not quite sure what you mean? It's simple: ideals, hopes and values are strictly connected to the concept of responsibility, and of alternative possibilities. Exactly what compatibilism denies. In a deterministic system, one cannot "hope" for anything: one can only go through some compulsive representation of hope, which has no real relationship with what can happen: indeed, if one were really "wise" about his own condition (that is , if his inner states pre-determine for him that wisdom), he would understand that nothin "can" happen, but that all "must" happen: hope is therefore just a gratuitous feeling, with no real relationship with the reality of things. About the other points, I will try really to be brief. I think the key point is the following: for me, free will has not such a strong connection with causation or control. I will try to explain myself better. Free will is all about how we choose to act: it is not about the real final consequences of our actions. One can choose a really good behaviour, in whole sincerity and humbleness, and still circumstances that he cannot control can determine a different outcome from the one he envisioned. That means something that many religious followers have known for ages: we don't control anything, except our inner choices. And for them, and only for them, we are morally responsible. It is true, obviously, that in making our choices we have the duty top acknowledge with humbleness and sincerity any input, be it rational or of other kinds, which we have about our situation. But that is completely different from being able to control the situation, or to be the absolute cause of any event. I think that the emphasis philosophers put into "control" and "causal power" is the sign of a basically non religious attitude. Religious experience is all about the recognition that we are not able to control anything, especially without God's help. But we are responsible for accepting God's help or not. So, free will is all about choices. Those choices ar not purely cognitive (the problem is not: what seems more rational we do, as everybody should easily recognize). And they are nor purely choices of felling (the problem is not: what I desire I do, because otherwise everybody would be morally perfect). The problem is: out of the few things which I can really do, because I feel I can do them, which is the one which correspond best to my highest intuition of what is good? Which is the one which is most appropriate according to God's will, and not simply according to what I desire? We can even think of free will in a different way: as a faculty that we can exercise or not. In that sense, if we do not exercise our free will, we will be completely determined by our previous experiences, by our desires, by our human nature. But if we choose to actively use that inner resource, we can change that. We can put our life in tune with higher values and intuitions, which are trans-personal, which are better and more pure and more powerful than what we can do by ourselves. In other words, we can actively become receptive to good, and to God's will. And that changes everything.gpuccio
August 18, 2010
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IB: Actually, sometimes we DO see one who is saint-like stumbling, and sometimes stumbling very badly indeed. Also, I must again point out that cause is more complex than we tend to think -- especially on mental and moral [responsible choice related] behaviour. Causal factors come in clusters, can be contributory, can be necessary and in some cases are sufficient, and sufficient does not entail necessary. (Copi's classic example is a fire: each of oxidiser, fuel and heat are necessary, and they are jointly sufficient. Without a necessary factor, an event cannot occur. With sufficient factors, it will occur.) I tend to be very wary of those who speak of "mental states" as -- in a world where terms are often chosen subtly -- that often suggests emergentism or emanationism rooted in materialism, aka physicalism. Physicalism on the mind is immediately self-referentially incoherent, for various reasons linked to determinism [i.e compelling sufficiency] on non-rational causal factors and how it thus undermines choice, a key component of rationality and even language. The physicalist deerminist, not least, on his premises, holds his position by the chance circumstances of genetics, culture, class etc and physical consequences that led him to be born, raised and educated [insofar as education is possible beyond mere conditioning], not by any process tracing to credible grounds and logical consequences followed by seeing good reason to do so and deciding to follow such. So, a Crick reduces mind to neuron networks firing away, a Skinner turns us into rats in a maze, and so forth. All of which turns on them. Now, there are also dualistic determinists [or in some cases, fatalists is a better term], certain types of Calvinists and believers in controlling occultic influences being classic examples. So are certain types of Muslims. The determinism is the downfall of such thought-systems: do they hold these views because they are warranted, or because they are caused to do so on sufficient and controlling factors irrelevant to truth, reason and right? If we cannot really choose, if there is no difference between influence, habituation and outright control, then rationality and responsibility have evaporated. All that is left is coercion and/or manipulation, of one species or another. In short, we end up at that horror: might makes right. Resemblance to what is going on all around us is NOT coincidental. By contrast the view cited in Rom 7 - 8 above opens up the issues of a mind and a will that have enough transcendent freedom to reflect soberly on what one does habitually or even by stumbling or being unable to escape it. It then holds out the promise of the liberating encounter with the Transcendent, which empowers one to find the motivation and capacity to be forgiven and to overcome, however one may stumble in the path of the good. And, it points out a key principle for the renewal of the mind and heart: the mind of the flesh [sarx] is obsessed with the things of the flesh, whilst the Spiritually empowered mind is lifted from that level to what Paul describes so eloquently in Philippians 4:8:
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.
An indictment of out civilisation in its current befouled mindset! GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 18, 2010
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Green: I don't want to use too much of your time, so I will try to give brief and substantial comments. Then I think we can be happy of having explained our ideas, or we can go on discussing, according to your wish. I’m not sure what you mean by strict determinism. Any form of determinism where anything is pre-determined by existing conditions, either physical or inner or both. In that ense, I think it is clear form what you say that any form of compatibilism is strict determinism. I’m still not sure what you mean by simple determinism, but if you mean physical determinism (i.e. the idea that the brain is all there is and that it is determined, conscious states being illusory), then affirming the existence of a rich variety of conscious mental states is certainly substantially different. It's substantially different, but not from the point of view of determinism. The system, even with its conscious states, remains totally determined. By the way, adding possible probabilistic factors does not change anything substantial (I think we agree on that). So, I nwould treat random-deterministic models together with strictly deterministic models as one, let's say: no free will models. Whilst these mental states are determined (by all the previous factors I mentioned above), you still get a robust account of agency. No, you just get a robust account of two deterministic models interacting, which is the same as one deterministic model with two levels of organization. The existence of an interaction between conscious states and physical reality is no guarantee of agency, no more than the existence of a software interacting with hardware is agency. A causal relationship is not the same as agency. We must be cautious with words, they can sidetrack us. Agency is a word which has always been reserved to experiences with a subjective intuition of free will, and not to merely causal models. Changing the use of the word does not change facts. Indeed, as long as mental states are causally efficacious (which I think they are) then human agents can make a real difference in the world. This is really nonsense (and I say that with the utmost respect for you, please believe me). It's the same as saying that, as long as covalent bonds are causally efficacious, then they can make a real difference in the world of biochemistry. Something which is part of deterministic system, does not "make a difference". The system is just what it is, with its parts, and could not be different in any way. The word "difference" means something else, and is not appropriate here. My idea is that compatibilists are trying to "mess things up" to be able to re-enter words and meaning which apply only to free will models into a deterministic model. From that point of view, I suppose pure determinists are better, because at least they are not trying to escape from the consequences of what they believe to be true through intellectual games. They can still act for good reasons, Only if they are pre-determined to do so. And in what sense would a reason be "good", and another one be "bad"? They are just what they are: inescapable pre-existing causes. And what about people who can only act for "bad" reasons, because the flux of their mental states can only bring them to that behaviour? they are still able to deliberate and compare alternative courses of action Here I really can't follow you any more: what do you mean with "deliberate"? Deliberate what? And didn't you say that you don't believe in PAP? So, how are "alternative courses of action" possible, least of all "comparable"? they are still able to compare and evaluate different means, ends and consequences, and they are still able to act upon their own desires. They are not "able" to do anything like that. They "must" go through the inner states which are inevitably already established by their condition: even if those inner states include the illusion of comparing, evaluating, of desiring and acting, in no way they are "able" to do all that: They "must" do it, and they cannot do anything different. There is a world of difference, and the (pseudo)-smart use of words cannot change that difference. More in the next post (you see, fragmenting my answers in different posts can give the illusion of brevity, but I am afraid that they remain substantially long... :) )gpuccio
August 18, 2010
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Thank you for the discussion I have enjoyed it however one question about compatibilism. compatibilism: 1. My ultimate desire's/alignment is primary 2. Alignment creates/determines combination of mental states and or reasons 3. At time t the strongest combination of mental states decide my action. The question becomes then who decides alignment that determines mental states? Do I have freedom to choose where I want to ultimately align myself i.e. to love or pride, anger etc? I am in agreement with Green in a sense that I think we act according to our alignment which determines our mental states, reasons and actions. If our behavior was not caused by anything (libertarianism) then we could see a person acting like a saint for 2 weeks and like a psycho for the next 2 which is not the case.Innerbling
August 18, 2010
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Perhaps some of you will find this illuminating. http://www.realanswers.net/realanswers/?p=52riddick
August 17, 2010
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Green, I think the problem is obvious.
(1) Determinism being true and humans being only physical 2) Determinism being true and humans being both mental/conscious ["Whilst these mental states are determined"] and physical (my position).
By your definition it would seem that (should you choose to recognize as such) the vapor physically rising from a pot of boiling water could be mental - it is certainly as determined.Upright BiPed
August 17, 2010
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p.s. SB. thankstgpeeler
August 17, 2010
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I was pre-destined to believe in free will.tgpeeler
August 17, 2010
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Anyhow, I've spent too much time on this blog in the past couple of days, so I'm not going to make any more substantial comments. I can point people to references, and answer quick questions, but I need to get some work done! Ciao :DGreen
August 17, 2010
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Upright BiPed:
Not to butt in, but this seems like a massive internal contradiction. Or, a simple eviceration of definitions… Affirming a rich variety of conscious mental states (which are mechanically determined) is simply determinism in a different dress.
Upright BiPed, I’m not sure what’s not clear here? The distinction I’m trying to draw is between: (1) Determinism being true and humans being only physical (2) Determinism being true and humans being both mental/conscious and physical (my position) Clearly (2) is different from (1). (1) strips humans of all mental states; i.e. all desires, all beliefs, all long term goals, all reasoning faculties, all rationality, all qualitative experience, all feelings, and so forth. (2) does not; it affirms the existence of all these things. One does not have to have libertarianism to have this rich conscious experience.Green
August 17, 2010
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I have already read much of the relevant literature, which is why I had no difficulty explaining why your position is incoherent–a point that you have already acknowledged, and one which you were apparently unaware of until I pointed it out to you.
I have been aware that determinism and moral responsibility are inconsistent for quite some time. Anyhow, with regards to the incoherence in my position: I think it’s useful to make the distinction between determinism itself being inconsistent (which some here have tried to argue, unsucessfully, I think), and the combination of determinism and moral responsibility being inconsistent (which you have pointed out). And I have freely acknowledged that this latter combination appears incoherent. Which is why I gave biblical grounds for believing in the latter and not philosophical grounds. But bear in mind, I also pointed out that libertarian accounts do no better in trying to account for moral responsibility (or ‘ultimate control’).
That should have been your first clue that you should not presume to lecture me.
Yes sorry I realised that came across quite harshly. Apologies, it wasn’t intended. I think I was just a bit frustrated with this whole discussion. (I never should have myself into it to be honest!)
You just weren’t paying attention because you are all hung up on what some call the various “schools” of free will. My argument is simple: A person’s moral acts are not caused by another, nor are they uncaused. They are caused by the person. That means that, as persons, those individuals are morally self-determined, their acts freely chosen, without coercion or compulsion, and that they could have done otherwise….I have already said this in different words. Go ahead and refute the point if you think you can.
I don’t mean to be a pain with categories here, but it is helpful to know which type of free will you are defending so that I can respond accordingly. And it seems to me that you are defending the agent-causation theory. So I’ll explain why that account fails to give an account of moral responsibility. Firstly, I’ll assume that moral responsibility requires the following: (1) The agent must be the source of the action (2) The agent must be in control of themselves when they do the action I think the agent-causal theory can get you (1) but not (2). See the comments I made to GP above for why it cannot get (2) – specifically see the headings entitiled “Causation and explanation” and “causation and control”. Both these sections show that the agent causationist cannot give an account of how an agent caused, or is control of, her action. So it can give you origination, but this alone isn’t much help. Schlosser (2008) explains this much better than me, so you could check out section 6.4 of his paper if you wanted :) (http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a790438857~db=all~jumptype=rss) If you can’t access it, let me know and I can post the relevant section on here, or email it :-)Green
August 17, 2010
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Oops...I cut off the end of the quote.
you still get a robust account of agency.
Really? I don't see anything but determinism. But like I said, I'll be quiet and watch.Upright BiPed
August 17, 2010
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Not to butt in, but this seems like a massive internal contradiction. Or, a simple eviceration of definitions.
I’m still not sure what you mean by simple determinism, but if you mean physical determinism (i.e. the idea that the brain is all there is and that it is determined, conscious states being illusory), then affirming the existence of a rich variety of conscious mental states is certainly substantially different. Whilst these mental states are determined
Affirming a rich variety of conscious mental states (which are mechanically determined) is simply determinism in a different dress. The only illusion I see is that this is substaintially different than any other determinism. I'll watch.Upright BiPed
August 17, 2010
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Molch:
If I understand you correctly, you believe in ultimate responsibility for your choices, although you believe that all your choices are in fact determined and couldn’t have been otherwise (as do I believe). Do you have a reason for this contradictory assumption besides the bible teaching…?
No, I don’t, since I haven’t seen a good philosophical account of it anywhere.
So – I am basically asking: why are you a compatibilist, not a determinist?
Sorry, I was using compatibilist and determinist interchangeably. Maybe I should just use the word determinist to be clearer:)Green
August 17, 2010
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GP: Clarifying my position
it is difficult for me to see where it may really be different form strict determinism.
I’m not sure what you mean by strict determinism. Do you mean physical determinism? If that is the case, then my determinism is completely different. Being a substance dualist, I completely affirm the existence of the wide variety of conscious mental experiences that we have. And being a determinist, I also believe that these conscious mental states are determined.
But then, what determines inner states, other than physical inputs? Because determined they must be, if there is no free will.
Yes, you’re right. What determines my conscious mental states (i.e. my beliefs, desires, moral values etc.) is a variety of things. These things would include my previous mental states, my interactions with people, my encounters with god, the physical make-up of my brain, the books I read, and so on and so forth.
I appreciate the effort, but can’t understand if there is any substantial difference with physical determinism. You are just trading a simple form of determinism with a double determinism intertwined.
I’m still not sure what you mean by simple determinism, but if you mean physical determinism (i.e. the idea that the brain is all there is and that it is determined, conscious states being illusory), then affirming the existence of a rich variety of conscious mental states is certainly substantially different. Whilst these mental states are determined (by all the previous factors I mentioned above), you still get a robust account of agency. Indeed, as long as mental states are causally efficacious (which I think they are) then human agents can make a real difference in the world. They can still act for good reasons, they are still able to deliberate and compare alternative courses of action, they are still able to compare and evaluate different means, ends and consequences, and they are still able to act upon their own desires. So mental determinism is definitely substantially different from physical determinism. On the consequences of compatibilism (aka determinism) You objected to my compatibilist view of agency for the following reasons: (1) It couldn’t ground moral responsibility (2) It allows no ability for human self-improvement (3) It makes it difficult to give any sense to human ideals, hopes and values As I’ve already noted, (1) is also a difficulty for all libertarian accounts, so compatibilism is no worse off here (and I’ve already given an account of how I can be justified in personally thinking that moral responsibility still exists. With regards to (2), that doesn’t follow, since as long as humans have the desire for self-improvement, they can act on it. With regards to (3), I’m not quite sure what you mean? On the agent-causal theory of libertarianism: Firstly-great, I’m glad we’re in agreement about the event-causal theories of libertarian free will. Like you said, they don’t add anything to an account of human agency. With regards to my point that it only gives us the power to make irrational decisions: You noted that well, sometimes are decisions are indeed irrational. I think I should have been clearer here. Yes, we are sometimes irrational in the sense that we sometimes make illogical decisions, or in the sense that we sometimes make decisions for bad reasons, but I don’t think we are ever irrational in the sense that we sometimes make decisions for absolutely no reason whatsoever – which is what the agent-causation view leads to. Even in a scenario where two courses of action are equally preferable, there is no reason to think that the decision is made for no reason at all. In scenarios such as this, a decision will be made because of a desire to choose a course of action. Thus even here, there are reasons that explain the decision. In agent-causal scenario, not so. My other problems with the agent-causation account of libertarianism Ok, so herein lie my other problems with agent-causation. It’s long, but you did ask ;) (1) Causation and explanation The agent-causation theory does not seem to be able to give an adequate account of agential control. All those working in the field of agency (even those who are not libertarians) agree that control is one of the necessary conditions for agency. And, one of the necessary conditions for control is causation. In other words, to be in control of an event, an agent must at the very least be a cause of it. Aside from the problematic notion of substance-causation, though, it is very difficult to see how agent-causationists can justify the idea that agents are causal entities. This is because the cause in question is in no way explanatory. I illustrated this with the thought experiment with ‘Joe’ in a previous post. Recall that in this thought experiment there was no reason whatsoever for why Joe chose A and not B. The idea that the cause of an event might fail to explain that event, however, seems incoherent. How can positing a specific cause for an effect not also explain that effect? One philosopher working in this field (Ginet) has argued that whilst he wouldn’t go so far as to say that the idea that a cause ought to explain its effect is self-evident, but he does say that its denial is highly puzzling, and it should not be accepted without sufficiently compelling reason. Agent-causationists are aware of this problem. However, their only response seems to be that it is not axiomatic that causation ought to follow explanation. That’s all well and good, but it’s hardly a compelling argument. (2) Causation and control Secondly, even if the causal power of an agent on the agent-causation view is granted, the agent-causation theory still faces serious objections. One of these is the fact that causation does not automatically constitute control, and it is control that the agent-causationist needs in a theory of agency. It is clearly not the case that wherever there is causation, there is agential control (e.g. look up ‘deviant causal chains’ on google). Control is not simply a matter of causation. Non-agent causationists (e.g. event-causationists) solve the problem by saying that control is i) causation PLUS ii) acting for conscious reasons. However, this option is not available for the agent-causationist, since their theory posits that agents ultimately act for no reason at all. Given that they cannot use ‘acting for reasons’ as an account of control, it seems that the agent-causationist is simply reduced to the bare assertion that control is exercised simply because the cause in question is an agent. In fact, O'Connor (a prominent agent-causationist) fairly explicitly states that agent-control simply is the relation between the agent and the effect, implying that no more explanatory work is needed. Critics objected to this: the agent-causationist can’t be allowed to say that agent-causation constitutes control because "it just does". What kind of a response is this? To summarise (1) and (2), agent causationists have difficulty not only justifying the idea that the agent in question is a cause, but they also have difficulty justifying the idea that this cause is of the right sort to constitute agential control. And with no control, agency is undermined. (3) I also think that the agent-causation theory is unintuitive Firstly, by separating an agent from his or her mental states, I think the agent causation theory is setting up a false dichotomy. I don’t think that agent should be distinguished from the sum of her mental states. Of course when mental states are described from a third-person perspective, they will appear lifeless and inactive. As Nagel (1995) once remarked “‘[s]omething peculiar happens when we view [agency] from an external… standpoint. Some of its most important features seem to vanish under the objective gaze. Actions no longer seem assignable to individual agents as sources…’ However, when we view mental states from a first-person perspective, it is clear that the distinction between an agent and his or her mental states is only apparent. The only reason one might feel a reluctance to identify an agent with a series of mental states is because there is a gulf between our experience of these states, and our conceptions of them. When given an objective description, mental states seem distinct from an agent, but when experienced from the first-person perspective, mental states (desires, motives, evaluative systems, long term plans, moral values, likes, dislikes, and so forth) plausibly constitute an agent. Also, whilst we’re on the topic of intuitiveness, as I’ve been arguing all along, the idea that agent could do otherwise - even if she had no motivation, no desire, no will power, etc. etc. is absurd. Yet this is what the agent-causation theory entails. In fact, it’s what any libertarian account entails. Ok, I’ve already used up a lot of space, and I know I haven't responded to all your points, but I hope I've clarified some of the reasons why I think the agent-causation view fails. If you want to see why it fails to account for moral responsibility too, check out a short section in this paper by Schlosser (2008): http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a790438857 And if you want to see why substances can't be causes, the SEP page entitled 'Incompatibilist (nondeterministic) theories of free will' has a good section on it. (I referenced it earlier:)Green
August 17, 2010
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Following up: We immediately see that there is an addiction to the wrong that, at our best, we all struggle with. This is a big piece of the concept of moral fallen-ness and bondage of the will. Even so, the mind and will are able to choose a different path, though not always to effect it. That is, at our best we may grow in the right, and sometimes we stumble and lapse. But the issue is persistence in the way of the right, and openness to the liberation and transformation that come from the Transcendent. (Indeed, in the NT, responsiveness to truth we know or should know is a moral issue; thence the intellectual virtues approach to epistemology.) We also see that the picture is complex, though sadly familiar: addiction and struggle to break its bondage, with the threat and reality of occasional lapses. (Not to mention those who choose instead to give themselves over to evils.) So, freedom is here a relative term, in the context of constraining and in some degree enslaving forces and factors: we are freer to consent to and will than we are to do the right. But, by God's grace, we may turn tot he power of God that helps us grow in the right, though "la lucha continua." So, now is freedom to be seen as an acausal process, with neither influences nor necessary constraints nor enslaving addictions? No. But, in the end we do have a power of choice, with vast implications for the path of our own lives and the communities in which we live. A difference that starts with being willing to face the truth about ourselves and our struggles. Which we are freer to do than to escape the entangling and enslaving pull of the wrong. Going yet further, there is the point hat to think and choose aright, we must have sufficient freedom to think and to choose. The past, by itself may influence the future but it does not determine or utterly control it. The saint has a past, and the sinner [often the two live in the same body] a potentially bright future. Which brings us back to the Derek Smith Two-tier controller servosystem model that I often use in this general context. Smith was looking at how complex robots may be developed, and saw that an input-output loop controller may have a supervisory controller that carries out goal-setting, path imagining and general oversight of the loop. And the two tiers of control may interact informationally not simply by the sort of dynamic control that obtains in the loop proper. With that perspective in mind, we can now think afresh about mind and body, will and control actions in light of that possibility. For instance, "reprogramming" the lower level controller may be a difficult process, especially given the neural architecture and the need to learn. In a crude way this suggests one cause for a gap between the higher and the lower, and why it is a struggle to learn the right way. (Ever had to unlearn poor techniques in a sport? And, ever been discouraged from persisting in the corrective path? Ever had an encouraging word make a difference?) It is also suggestive of why the higher order controller may have a greater freedom than the lower one. All of this is not meant to be a proof [much less a doctrine!], but a means to use lateral illumination to help with opening up our thinking so we can see a little more broadly than the sort of strawmannish projections I cited above. Freedom, choice, influence, and control are all subtler and more complex than we are often inclined to imagine. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 17, 2010
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