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Intelligent Design and the Demarcation Problem

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One common objection which is often raised regarding the proposition of real design (as opposed to design that is only apparent) is the criticism that design is unable to be falsified by the ruthless rigour of empirical scrutiny. Science, we are told, must restrict its explanatory devices to material causes. This criterion of conformity to materialism as a requisite for scientific merit is an unfortunate consequence of a misconstrual of the principal of uniformitarianism with respect to the historical sciences. Clearly, a proposition – if it is to be considered properly scientific – must constrict its scope to categories of explanation with which we have experience. It is this criterion which allows a hypothesis to be evaluated and contrasted with our experience of that causal entity. Explanatory devices should not be abstract, lying beyond the scope of our uniform and sensory experience of cause-and-effect.

This, naturally, brings us on to the question of what constitutes a material cause. Are all causes, which we have experience with, reducible to the material world and the interaction of chemical reactants? It lies as fundamentally axiomatic to rationality that we be able to detect the presence of other minds. This is what C.S. Lewis described as “inside knowledge”. Being rational agents ourselves, we have an insider’s knowledge of what it is to be rational – what it is to be intelligent. We know that it is possible for rational beings to exist and that such agents leave behind them detectable traces of their activity. Consciousness is a very peculiar entity. Consciousness interacts with the material world, and is detectable by its effects – but is it material itself? I have long argued in favour of substance dualism – that is, the notion that the mind is itself not reducible to the material and chemical constituents of the brain, nor is it reducible to the dual forces of chance and necessity which together account for much of the other phenomena in our experience. Besides the increasing body of scientific evidence which lends support to this view, I have long pondered whether it is possible to rationally reconcile the concept of human autonomy (free will) and materialistic reductionism with respect to the mind. I have thus concluded that free will exists (arguing otherwise leads to irrationality or reductio ad absurdum) and that hence materialism – at least with respect to the nature of consciousness – must be false if rationality is to be maintained.

My reasoning can be laid out as follows:

1: If atheism is true, then so is materialism.

2: If materialism is true, then the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

3: If the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain, then human autonomy and consciousness are illusory because our free choices are determined by the dual forces of chance and necessity.

4: Human autonomy exists.

From 3 & 4,

5: Therefore, the mind is not reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

From 2 & 5,

6: Therefore, materialism is false.

From 1 & 6,

7: Therefore, atheism is false.

Now, where does this leave us? Since we have independent reason to believe that the mind is not reducible to material constituents, materialistic explanations for the effects of consciousness are not appropriate explanatory devices. How does mind interact with matter? Such a question cannot be addressed in terms of material causation because the mind is not itself a material entity, although in human agents it does interact with the material components of the brain on which it exerts its effects. The immaterial mind thus interacts with the material brain to bring about effects which are necessary for bodily function. Without the brain, the mind is powerless to bring about its effects on the body. But that is not to say that the mind is a component of the brain.

We have further independent reason to expect a non-material cause when discussing the question of the origin of the Universe. Being an explanation for the existence of the natural realm itself – complete with its contingent natural laws and mathematical expressions – natural law, with which we have experience, cannot be invoked as an explanatory factor without reasoning in a circle (presupposing the prior existence of the entity which one is attempting to account for). When faced with explanatory questions with respect to particular phenomena, then, the principle of methodological materialism breaks down because we possess independent philosophical reason to suppose the existence of a supernatural (non-material) cause.

Material causes are uniformly reducible to the mechanisms and processes of chance (randomness) and necessity (law). Since mind is reducible to neither of those processes, we must introduce a third category of explanation – that is, intelligence.

When we look around the natural world, we can distinguish between those objects which can be readily accounted for by the dual action of chance and necessity, and those that cannot. We often ascribe such latter phenomena to agency. It is the ability to detect the activity of such rational deliberation that is foundational to the ID argument.

Should ID be properly regarded as a scientific theory? Yes and no. While ID theorists have not yet outlined a rigorous scientific hypothesis as far as the mechanistic process of the development of life (at least not one which has attracted a large body of support), ID is, in its essence, a scientific proposition – subject to the criteria of empirical testability and falsifiability. To arbitrarily exclude such a conclusion from science’s explanatory toolkit is to fundamentally truncate a significant portion of reality – like trying to limit oneself to material processes of randomness and law when attempting to explain the construction of a computer operating system.

Since rational deliberation characteristically leaves patterns which are distinguishable from those types of patterns which are left by non-intelligent processes, why is design so often shunned as a non-scientific explanation – as a ‘god-of-the-gaps’ style argument? Assuredly, if Darwinism is to be regarded as a mechanism which attempts to explain the appearance of design by non-intelligent processes (albeit hitherto unsuccessfully), it follows by extension that real design must be regarded as a viable candidate explanation. To say otherwise is to erect arbitrary parameters of what constitutes a valid explanation and what doesn’t. It is this arbitrarily constraints on explanation which leads to dogmatism and ideology – which, I think, we can all agree is not the goal or purpose of the scientific enterprise.

Comments
*functionalism, sorry.Green
August 16, 2010
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If mental states cause things in virtue of their phenomenal quality, the quality is functional.
But my whole point was that functions don’t have a phenomenal quality! By functionalising things, this is exactly the feature of mental states that you lose. You seemed to concede this further down when you wrote:
Functionalists either functionalise phenomenological quality,hence giving it a causal role, or just deny that phenomenlogical qualities have no causal role.
What part of “giving it a causal role” retains the phenonemal quality of a mental state? To functionalise something you basically find the conditions under which the mental property (e.g. pain) is instantiated, and the effects that it typically causes. This is essentially what “giving pain a causal role” amounts to. Where in such a description is the feeling of pain, though? It is nowhere to be found. It has been lost entirely. Jaegwon Kim himself says at the end of Physicalism or Something Near Enough that phenomenological properties can never be functionalised or reductively explained. This is why he tries to argue that none of the most of the mental states involved in agency either (a) have no phenomenological quality, or (b) also have a causal role, thereby enabling them to be functionalised. But my whole point is that (contra Kim) there are some mental states that are causally efficacious in virtue of their phenomenological properties. Like itches that make you scratch, for example. J.P. Moreland has also argued (cogently, I think) that mental-to-mental causation requires that mental states be causally efficacious in virtue of their phenomenological quality. He argues that if the thought “George Washington is president” and the thought “Ben Franklin invented bifocals” do not have any phenomenological difference between them, then how would we ever know it? So it seems that contary to Kim, we do need mental states that are causally efficacious in virtue of their phenomenal quality - the phenomenal quality being the very feature that can't be functionalised. Thus functionalised can't save all mental causation.Green
August 16, 2010
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Green, I wonder if you believe in libertarian free will and just call it compatibilism because you define the two terms differently. Libertarian free will is a type of determinism. It states that outside forces combined with an internal cause (immaterial self) produce a choice. Under libertarian free will, it is coherent to say that any given agent under any given set of circumstances will determine one and only one choice. It could not be otherwise. The difference between this and other types of determinism is that the immaterial self is a factor. Think of a choice you made in the past. Now if right before you made that choice, I swapped out your immaterial soul and swapped in a different soul, might that soul make a different choice, even though circumstances are absolutely the same? I think you're confusing libertarian free will with simple indeterminism. In the latter, our own free actions are simply uncaused. Some might even extend this idea beyond human actions into the natural order, such as invoking Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. The problem with simple indeterminism is that if our choices (or a part of our choices) are simply random, then how can we justifiably control our behavior? There seems to be no basis upon which any responsibility can exist if our actions are random.Drew Mazanec
August 16, 2010
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Clive:
It is enough to show that determinism is self defeating when it is absolute
Your main argument for this seems to be that if we were determined, we would never be able to know it (thereby making determinism self-referentially incoherent). But why would we never be able to know it? Why can we not know it by introspection? For me, one of the most compelling piece of evidence for determinism is my introspective experience. I know that my actions are determined by a combination of my beliefs, desires, moral values, long term goals etc. etc. I know that I always act for the most compelling reason at the time, and that I could not act differently unless I had a desire to act differently. So I fail to see the force of your argument. Were you perhaps referring to physical rather than mental determinism? I could see how that strips humans of all rationality. But how could you argue against a determinist who is a substance dualist (like myself)?
and if it is not absolute, then we’re back to free will.
Well, I wouldn't say you're back with any sort of free will worth wanting. I'd say you're either back with pure randomness, or with irrationality. And why is that worth having?Green
August 16, 2010
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Daguerreotype Process, What is it that determines everything? Is it something physical moving about, causing everything to occur, even thoughts?Clive Hayden
August 16, 2010
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Green,
Ok, so I really didn’t want to get pulled in to a discussion on libertarian free will, but I think Daguerreotype Process is right. Clive, please could you explain how libertarian free will is rational?
It is enough to show that determinism is self defeating when it is absolute, and if it is not absolute, then we're back to free will. Clive Hayden
August 16, 2010
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Innerbling:
3. Plantinga’s argument against naturalism is true if A != B and B != A even in some cases. 4. The rebuttal of Plantinga’s argument would have to be as follows A = B and B = A always.
If Plantinga’s argument were that silly, it wouldn’t be worth rebutting. But Plantinga’s argument is more subtle. He says that the probability that our cognitive faculties are reliable given evolutionary selection is “low or inscrutable.”Adel DiBagno
August 16, 2010
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Let me continue on Kairosfocuce's post about Plantinga's argument against naturalism in 38. Plantingas argument against naturalism could be rebutted if: 1. Set/namespace of propositions that make sure species survive is A 2. The set/namespace of propositions that are true is B 3. Plantinga's argument against naturalism is true if A != B and B != A even in some cases. 4. The rebuttal of Plantinga's argument would have to be as follows A = B and B = A always. It's easy to demonstrate that 4. is not true as completely and obviously fallacious propositions could ensure that species survive. For example there could be an evolved belief A) When you are good Santa Claus will bring you presents on Christmas. So it could be possible that because of this belief there would be no wars etc. and the species would survive even though the belief is obviously false.Innerbling
August 16, 2010
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PS: A few words on the consequence of the view that phenomena are driven by chance + mechanical necessity, from the case of Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis, 1994:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.
Philip Johnson's rejoinder was richly deserved, that Dr Crick should therefore be willing to preface his books: “I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules.” (In short, as Prof Johnson then went on to say: “[[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” [[In Reason in the Balance, 1995.])kairosfocus
August 16, 2010
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DP: First, take a little look at how across time materialists of the evolutionary stripe have sought to undermine the thought of those who differ from them. Then ask your self what happens when the knife cuts the other way, as I did above. Next, I see you:
We have good reason to think that processes can arise which nonetheless result in producing creatures with veridical beliefs despite there being no teleological drive towards such.
Not at all, you have simply asserted a belief that will hacve a lot of institutional support. The point is that the processes of chance and necessity that you cite have no credible power to design complex life forms on digitally coded, algorithmically functional complex information and associated implementing machines, as can be seen from the state of OOL studies, much less major body plans that are embryologiclaly feasible, much less a mind that rises above forces of chance, necessity and survival. That we have good reason to think that we do know and think reasonably well cannot be accounted for on such supposed forces. Remember, you need to trace form physics and chemistry in a warm little pond or the equivalent to a mind with the capacities we are discussing. And, when we see the reductionism of mind to brains and wiring of networks on chance variation and survival of what survives, we have no good basis for accounting for the intricate information involved at all levels, on evolutionary materialist premises. This inadvertently comes out in your:
we find some beliefs which are compatible with survival enchancing behaviour but are not true. Cognitive misperceptions arise everywhere. The main attribution error, the above average effect, any number of other psychological mistakes which are universal. As long as we have logic and perception being reliable (can you provide some alternatives which would have had an equal or more likely evolutionary route?), and a cluster of true beliefs, then we can work on expunging the false beliefs because they will not hold up to further testing. Asking for more, absolute solid indefeasible knowledge, is a sceptical position that gets us nowhere and applies equally to everyone. Self-reference is inescapable for everyone.
In short you acknowledge that there is an unreliability in the processes you posit, then you propose logic as the solution. It is, indeed, but it cannot be bootstrapped on chance variations and survival selection in the plains of E Africa or the woodlands thereof. So, you are begging the question, and compounding it by erecting a strawman caricature of those who have challenged your claims, to GROUND the credibility of the mind and reasoning on evolutionary materialistic premises. Nor am I shut up to undirected chance + necessity as causal mechanisms, so I have no need to supply an alternative evolutionary strategy as such: that we were designed to be reasoning creatures is more than good enough, whatever mechanisms were used being of little account. It is your side that purports to explain all -- including reasoning and consciousness -- on chance and mechanical necessity. So, you need to do it, without ending up in self referential incoherence, and so far, no joy. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 16, 2010
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But in all the cases where mental states cause things in virtue of their phenomenal quality, your analogy breaks down because you’re stripping mental states of all their defining characteristics, and like I said, saving mental causation in name only.
Or you're defining mental states' entire defining characteristics as phenomenal character, which I'm not fully happy to accept. Although phenomenal experience is a part, it's not all.
But in all the cases where mental states cause things in virtue of their phenomenal quality
Which cases? If mental states cause things in virtue of their phenomenal quality, the quality is functional. If it doesn't cause anything, it's epiphenomenal and therefore useless. The zombie argument relies on the thought that mental states can function without any phenomenal qualities playing a role. Inverted qualia arguments suggest that functionally equivalent phenomenal qualities can be different with the same functional role, and is more of a problem, but still doesn't lead to more than epiphenominism about the specific nature of the experience. And I'm not inclined towards functionally equivilant phenomenal qualities that can be different -> have you read Dennett's quining qualia? Paul Churchland's Chimerical Colors, Some Phenomenological Predictions from Cognitive Neuroscience is also a convincing read for so functionalising phenomenal qualities.
Basically, functionalism fails whenever you want to give a causal role to a phenomenological quality.
Functionalists either functionalise phenomenological quality, hence giving it a causal role, or just deny that phenomenlogical qualities have no causal role. None of the thought experiments get us to more than that.
And Kim’s functionalism doesn’t help much here either. Firstly, what are functions? Functions are human concepts – they are not genuine properties of the external world. So the functionalist might talk about mental states, but in reality, they are talking about a concept, and thus the mental states have disappeared.
The mental and/or brain states fill in the concept. They're a manifestation of the concept. If we talk about 'species' or a 'mouse trap', are we equally making groups of animals or a couple of blocks of wood and pieces of metal dissapear?Daguerreotype Process
August 16, 2010
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In fact, the point was and is that material processes of cause-effect driven by chance or mechanical necessity (as Leibniz pointed out long ago and Lewis more recently, who I owe more to than to Plantinga) are IRRELEVANT to issues of truth and validity.
And? We have good reason to think that processes can arise which nonetheless result in producing creatures with veridical beliefs despite there being no teleological drive towards such.
Indeed, Plantinga’s point in essence is that that irrelevancy means that many beliefs are compatible with survival enhancing behaviour.
And, remarkably, we find some beliefs which are compatible with survival enchancing behaviour but are not true. Cognitive misperceptions arise everywhere. The main attribution error, the above average effect, any number of other psychological mistakes which are universal. As long as we have logic and perception being reliable (can you provide some alternatives which would have had an equal or more likely evolutionary route?), and a cluster of true beliefs, then we can work on expunging the false beliefs because they will not hold up to further testing. Asking for more, absolute solid indefeasible knowledge, is a sceptical position that gets us nowhere and applies equally to everyone. Self-reference is inescapable for everyone.
If materialism/naturlism necessarily leads to truth, why do people disagree?
Because it leads to truth through a twisty and difficult road. If theological creation leads to truth, why do people disagree?Daguerreotype Process
August 16, 2010
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I think the best argument that materialsm/nature doesn't lead to truth is simply that there are so many people here arguing for contradictory truths. If materialism/naturlism necessarily leads to truth, why do people disagree? If it doesn't necessarily lead to truth, then how can one possibly discern what is true?William J. Murray
August 16, 2010
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The human mind is free to will, or intend, events or goals that logically correspond to their physical situation, and/or those that do not. IOW, I might be in chains in a basement somewhere; of course I do not have "free action" in the sense that I can choose to not be in chains, sprout wings and fly off; but I certainly can intend for such a situation to occur, whether such an intention is a logical possibility or not. I can also intend to eat a slice of blueberry pie, and intend to invent a sports car powered by popcorn in the same situation - neither of which have anything to do with my current physical state of being in chains in a basement. Humans with free will have unfettered ability to intend, even beyond what they can specifically imagine, by simply intending an emotional or symbolic outcome, such as common themes of triumph, freedom, love, innovation, enjoyment, etc.William J. Murray
August 16, 2010
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PS: By way of contrast, if our mental and perceptual equipment is designed and implemented to be generally reliable, we have good reason to trust them, equally in general. Of course we sometimes err, but we have reason to believe we have the ability to detect and correct such error. (E.g. think about how a spoon in a glass of water appears bent, but running a finger along will show that something has altered the in-built interpretation of linear transmission of light.) PPS: let me underscore again, lest a strawman misperception prevails, the point abovge is that cause-effect bonds and chance and necessity as drivers and controllers are IRRELEVANT to issues of truth, validity, and right or wrong. This deciviley undercuts any assumption or assertion that on chance plus natural selection, we can assume generally accurate work of the mind [here an epiphenomenon of brain.] That would have to be SHOWN, on materialist premises; and thence we get into cycles of self-referential incoherence BECAUSE THE THOUGHTS AND CONCLUSIONS WOULD TRACE TO ACCIDENTS AND BLIND CAUSE-EFFECT CHAINS LINKED TO SURVIVAL, NOT TO TRUTH. (And that was what Plantiga's example of he Ape-like creature was about, and his conditional probability inference.)kairosfocus
August 16, 2010
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DP: Your rebuttal is unfortunately evasive not material:
Kairosfocus, your link seems to be a version of Plantinga’s EAAN argument. Jerry Fodor’s response is thorough and, as far as I’m concerned, decisive. When I return back to uni I’m going to go through several other chapters of the anthology of responses to Plantinga’s argument, but I’m convinced the argument fails at the first step in presuming that material processes won’t lead towards truth. Natural selection would favour mostly true beliefs about a macro-level environment, and whatever true beliefs we develop will hold up on further testing whereas any false beliefs will not.
In fact, the point was and is that material processes of cause-effect driven by chance or mechanical necessity (as Leibniz pointed out long ago and Lewis more recently, who I owe more to than to Plantinga) are IRRELEVANT to issues of truth and validity. Indeed, Plantinga's point in essence is that that irrelevancy means that many beliefs are compatible with survival enhancing behaviour. At most, NS -- and recall the claimed [but highly dubious on config space search reasons] source of new information and organisation is chance variation on that model, not culling out based on differential reproductive success [a misdirection that is common] -- would support survival enhancing perceptions and response arcs, not credibility of the mind and cognitive processes of reasoning on logic in accessing an accurate view or understanding of the world. So, per evolutionary materilaism, we have no grounds for trusting the credibility of the mind on precisely the process of reasoning that you are using or trying to use. In points for convenience: ____________ >> a: evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature. (by def'n] b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of chance initial circumstances. [direct implication] c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. Thus, we arrive at Crick's claim: what we subjectively experience as "thoughts" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as unintended by-products of the natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. [by inclusion in implication.] d: These forces are viewed as ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. [elaboration on many lines of common argument] ______________________________ e: Therefore, if such evolutionary materialism is true, then the "thoughts" we have and the "conclusions" we reach, without residue, are produced and controlled by forces that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or validity. (The conclusions of such arguments may still happen to be true, by lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” them.) [First main conclusion] f: And, if materialists then say: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must note that to demonstrate that such tests provide empirical support to their theories requires the use of the very process of reasoning which they have discredited. [self reference is inescapable on appeal to empirical data and inferences therefrom] g: Thus, evolutionary materialism reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, immediately, that includes “Materialism.” [materialism is a paert of the reasoned inferences made by some] h: For instance, Marxists commonly deride opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismiss qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not simply ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is simply another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And, would not the writings of a Crick be little more than the firing of neurons in networks? [self-reference on concrete examples of he problem. The Freudian case shows tha this dates back to the 1980's. The Marxian one used to be dated but it is back on the table.] __________________________ i: In the end, materialism is evidently based on self-defeating logic. [Second main conclusion] >> _______________ DP, that is what you need to answer to, and the statement of your faith in the ability of your mind on materialist premises is not sufficient to rebut the issue. And, as Plantinga pointed out, chance variation and natural selection are about survival not truth. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 16, 2010
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I’m not convinced that property dualism is correct anyway, but even if it is true it doesn’t get you what you want.
No, I agree. Property dualism suffers from the problem of overdetermination, and so it has problems accounting for mental causation too. But I think it's a step in the right direction because it acknowledges the distinctness of mental states. Now it just needs to find a way to secure their causal efficacy. I'd argue that this cannot be done within the bounds of a physicalist ontology, which is why I made premise (2) of my reformulation of this blog's argument the following: 2) If the mind is a physical enitity or property of a physical entity, mental causation is impossible.Green
August 16, 2010
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Daguerreotype Process:
I am referring to the causal power of mental states, whether those mental states are ‘phenomenal’ or not...I could be irritable without noticing, and have this irritability cause me to do something.
Ok, I'll grant that your anaology works where the mental state in question has no phenomenal quality. In such a case, a mental state could maybe be analogous to a 'match', and thus maybe one could say that it has causal power. But in all the cases where mental states cause things in virtue of their phenomenal quality, your analogy breaks down because you're stripping mental states of all their defining characteristics, and like I said, saving mental causation in name only. And Kim's functionalism doesn't help much here either. Firstly, what are functions? Functions are human concepts - they are not genuine properties of the external world. So the functionalist might talk about mental states, but in reality, they are talking about a concept, and thus the mental states have disappeared. Secondly, even if functions were objective properties of the external world and not concepts, are mental states really just functions? 'Pain' might have a functional role, but can it be equated with this functional role? I don't see how it can. The phenomenological quality of pain disappears when you start talking about functions. So whilst functions aren't physical properties, they are not really mental properties either. Basically, functionalism fails whenever you want to give a causal role to a phenomenological quality. And contra Kim, I don't think it's ok to leave this all phenomenal qualities as epiphenomenal mental residues. To save human agency, in many cases (not all, as your example above with irritation highlights) we need to save the causal efficacy of these qualities.Green
August 16, 2010
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No, they don’t have anything to do with causality. But their relevance is this: the success of your argument concerning causality relies on the falsity of these arguments.
Not at all. I am referring to the causal power of mental states, whether those mental states are 'phenomenal' or not. We're all happy to allow mental states that are not part of access-consciousness causal powers - I could be irritable without noticing, and have this irritability cause me to do something. I can even have thoughts that are not vocally expressed in my head. I am identifying a mental state with a brain state, with leftover epiphenomenal residue. Jaegwon Kim summed up property dualism quite well: "The position is, as we might say, a slightly defective physicalism -- physicalism manque but not by much. I believe that this is as much physicalism as we can have, and that there is no credible alternative to physicalism as a general worldview. Physicalism is not the whole truth, but it is the truth near enough, and near enough should be good enough."
Mental states (joy / pain / thoughts / desires / beliefs) have no weight, no precise spatio-temporal location and a subjective ‘feel’ to them.
Apart from the subjective 'feel' aspect, this is conceivably the masked man fallacy. The functional mental states of joy/pain/thoughts/desires/beliefs can supervene upon, and be fully constituted by, material properties.
Why do you think the majority of philosopher’s of mind are property dualists? It’s precisely because they see the success of the aforementioned arguments, and they see that mental states are fundamentally different from ordinary physical properties.
http://philpapers.org/surveys/results.pl?affil=Target+faculty&areas0=16&areas_max=1&grain=coarse Only 18.3% of Philosophers of Mind lean towards zombies being metaphysically possible, which is hardly the majority. I'd agree that most of them think that mental states are fundamentally different from ordinary physical properties, which is why materialistic functionalism is so popular. I'm not convinced that property dualism is correct anyway, but even if it is true it doesn't get you what you want.Daguerreotype Process
August 16, 2010
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Incidentally, does ID need libertarianism? I can't see any reason why it does. It bugs me a little that the two are so often lumped together.Green
August 16, 2010
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Ok, so I really didn't want to get pulled in to a discussion on libertarian free will, but I think Daguerreotype Process is right. Clive, please could you explain how libertarian free will is rational? The way I see it, libertarianism seriously undermines human rationality because it leads to the conclusion that humans make choices for no reason whatsoever. Libertarianism requires that choices be indeterminate - and indeterminate in an absolutely unconditional sense. This is known as the "prinicple of alternative possibilities" (PAP, for short). PAP means that even given all the same antecedent conditions, an agent's actions could have been otherwise. Now for a thought experiment... Imagine an actual world where Joe decides at t to do A. Now imagine another world that is identical to the actual world up until time t, but in which Joe decides to do B at t, not A. Note that Joe's motivations, his beliefs, his desires, his moral state, his state of mind, his powers and capacities are all identical up until time t. Likewise, note that all the external circumstances are identical in both worlds; neither diverge before t. On the libertarian view, there is nothing about Joe or about the external world that explains why he chose A at t rather than B. There is no rhyme or reason to Joe's decision. Reasons may have figured probabilistically into his decision, but they did not determine it. No reason whatsoever determined it, and what is rational about that? How is acting (ultimately) for no reason at all rational? Compatibilism seems vastly more rational, since it ensures that an agent's choices will be causally determined by his reasons / state of mind / desires / beliefs / moral values / will power, and so forth. Acting in accordance with such reasons is perfectly rational.Green
August 16, 2010
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Daguerreotype Process,
I may be just as determined in my thinking and conclusions. And there is no logical contradiction with: 1) I am fully determined 2) I have a justified true belief that fulfills any further criteria for knowledge 3) Knowledge is compatible with determinism.
If you can't see the contradiction, it's not your fault, you are determined not to.Clive Hayden
August 16, 2010
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Daguerreotype Process @ 26:
For example, look up the ‘knowledge argument’, the various deployments of the ‘zombie’ argument, or the ‘inverted colour spectrum’ argument.I have. These have nothing to do with causality...
No, they don't have anything to do with causality. But their relevance is this: the success of your argument concerning causality relies on the falsity of these arguments. What these arguments show is that it is not legitimate to identify a brain state with a mental state. In other words, these arguments show that a mental state is not just a complex physical state. This means that your later argument, which relies on this premise, falls through, since a 'mental state' is no longer analogous to a 'match'. You also said:
if [these arguments] achieve anything [they] only support a spooky non-material phenomenal consciousness
Yes, this is exactly what they achieve. I think the term 'spooky' is perjorative, but the idea that they show mental properties to be immaterial is entirely intuitive. Mental states (joy / pain / thoughts / desires / beliefs) have no weight, no precise spatio-temporal location and a subjective 'feel' to them. Why do you think the majority of philosopher's of mind are property dualists? It's precisely because they see the success of the aforementioned arguments, and they see that mental states are fundamentally different from ordinary physical properties. They see that it is not legitimate to just assert that a mental state = complex brain state. The two are like chalk and cheese (in fact more different because at least chalk and cheese are both material). So to return to your analogy, if we start saying that 'matches' are analogous to 'mental states' (i.e. that mental states are just higher level descriptions of the brain) then we've stripped mental characteristics of all their defining features. We might talk about 'mental causation' but we're not talking about mental causation as it is generally understood-we're not talking about subjective qualitative experiences. Thus under your scenario we've saved mental causation in name only.Green
August 16, 2010
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For example, look up the ‘knowledge argument’, the various deployments of the ‘zombie’ argument, or the ‘inverted colour spectrum’ argument.I have. These have nothing to do with causality, and if they achieve anything only support a spooky non-material phenomenal consciousness which affect no mental processes. Besides which, they are all question begging.
I’ve yet to see an argument of how it isn’t self referentially incoherent to claim that determinism is absolute. In the case of those who claim to know that we’re fully and absolutely determined, HOW are you not just as determined in your thinking and “conclusions”?
I may be just as determined in my thinking and conclusions. And there is no logical contradiction with: 1) I am fully determined 2) I have a justified true belief that fulfills any further criteria for knowledge 3) Knowledge is compatible with determinism. Please show me the logical contradiction here. Kairosfocus, your link seems to be a version of Plantinga's EAAN argument. Jerry Fodor's response is thorough and, as far as I'm concerned, decisive. When I return back to uni I'm going to go through several other chapters of the anthology of responses to Plantinga's argument, but I'm convinced the argument fails at the first step in presuming that material processes won't lead towards truth. Natural selection would favour mostly true beliefs about a macro-level environment, and whatever true beliefs we develop will hold up on further testing whereas any false beliefs will not. One other point is that Plantinga's "if theism, then beliefs=true and if materialism, then beliefs=false" does not lead to theism being true. We still need reason to think that theism is true independently of what it would result in. Plantinga's notion of basic warranted belief doesn't do the work, as it leads to any strongly held belief being a good reason and no way to compare the various beliefs, resulting in a post-modern every belief is equal free for all.
Daguerreotype Process
August 16, 2010
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If determinism is true, then your beliefs are solely the result of outside forces, like atoms banging around inside your head. If that is the case, then why should we suppose that such reactions will produce true, reliable beliefs? As C.S. Lewis states in his book Miracles: "If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true, and hence I have no reason to believe my brain is composed of atoms." Whenever someone insists that I believe in determinism, I always like to ask "If someone came up with a really good argument that there is no such thing as free choice, would you freely choose to believe it?" In other words, someone tells me to believe in determinism, and I ask "Do I have to?" Since belief in determinism undercuts your belief that your beliefs are reliable, determinism must be abandoned as a reasonable worldview.Drew Mazanec
August 15, 2010
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Daguerreotype Process,
Determinism is compatible with foundationalism, coherentism, naturalism, externalism, internalism, empiricism, rationalism and any other epistemological viewpoint I know of.
Oh I thought you were going to make an actual argument, instead of just asserting something, as you did in the last comment, and as you've done here. I've yet to see an argument of how it isn't self referentially incoherent to claim that determinism is absolute. In the case of those who claim to know that we're fully and absolutely determined, HOW are you not just as determined in your thinking and "conclusions"? You show why it's not incoherent with absolute determinism, and then you'll be making an actual argument.Clive Hayden
August 15, 2010
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$ 0.02: I think a lot of the trouble on these matters traces to inadequate grasp of the conceptual and observable nature of cause. I mean by this that cause is not a monolithic entity. We have contributory factors, which may in part be necessary for an effect to occur [absent a necessary factor and an effect is blocked], and may be sufficient [so soon and where a sufficient cluster of factors is, an effect WILL occur and/or be sustained. Building on the fire triangle used by Copi in his logic, go get a box of safety matches: 1: Pull a match, and strike it -- heat, oxidiser and fuel are each needed to initiate or sustain a fire. 2: They are also jointly sufficient. 3: Now, hold a burning match, and tilt it up so the flame tries to burn the already burned wood. (It will gutter down and perhaps go completely out if you don't tilt it back fast enough.) 4: Q: Why is that? 5: A: because you were removing a necessary causal factor, fuel. 6: So we can see demonstrated the reality of necessary as opposed to sufficient causal factors. These are a strong form of "influences," that must be present if an effect is to occur. 7: In addition, there are contributory factors that may affect but are not necessary. (Soak the match wood -- not the striking head -- with a drop or two of kerosene, and you probably get a much enhanced flame . . . Don't do this one at home!) 8: With the distinction fixed in mind, we can see that a lot of the exchange above is missing the difference between influence and control. 10: We are influenced by external and internal factors, but that is not the same as being determined in our mental and volitional acts as we perceive them, on chance + necessity. 11: And, if we were determined, a la evolutionary materialism, we would have no credible foundation for thought, reason or decisions and choices. 12: In fact such evolutionary materialism plainly ends up in self-referential incoherence and it is thus reasonable to reject such materialism on that alone: we directly experience, rely on and see the credibility of what should not be so on evolutionary materialist premises. $0.02 GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 15, 2010
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Daguerreotype Process @ 24 said:
If a lit match dropping on a piece of highly flammable wood causing a fire is explainable in terms of electromagnetic particles, does that mean that the lit match did not cause the fire? Our psychological states have as much causal power as most things we say are causal, regardless of reductionism.
But in order for your analogy to work, mental states essentially need to be higher level descriptions of the same physical thing. So what you’re really saying in your analogy is that mental states are identical to complex brain states. There are significant problems with this, though. For example, look up the ‘knowledge argument’, the various deployments of the ‘zombie’ argument, or the ‘inverted colour spectrum’ argument.Green
August 15, 2010
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2) If the mind is a physical enitity or property of a physical entity, mental causation is impossible
If a lit match dropping on a piece of highly flammable wood causing a fire is explainable in terms of electromagnetic particles, does that mean that the lit match did not cause the fire? Our psychological states have as much causal power as most things we say are causal, regardless of reductionism.Daguerreotype Process
August 15, 2010
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However, I think the above argument could be modified somewhat so that it establishes that a weaker conclusion (not the falsity of atheism, but the falsity of a material conception of the mind) 1) If physicalism is true, the mind is physical entity or a property of a physical entity 2) If the mind is a physical enitity or property of a physical entity, mental causation is impossible 3) If mental causation is impossible, then human rationality is illusory 4) Human rationality is not illusory 5) Therefore the mind is not a physical entity or a property of a physical entity 6) Therefore physicalism is falseGreen
August 15, 2010
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