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Intelligent Design and the Demarcation Problem

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One common objection which is often raised regarding the proposition of real design (as opposed to design that is only apparent) is the criticism that design is unable to be falsified by the ruthless rigour of empirical scrutiny. Science, we are told, must restrict its explanatory devices to material causes. This criterion of conformity to materialism as a requisite for scientific merit is an unfortunate consequence of a misconstrual of the principal of uniformitarianism with respect to the historical sciences. Clearly, a proposition – if it is to be considered properly scientific – must constrict its scope to categories of explanation with which we have experience. It is this criterion which allows a hypothesis to be evaluated and contrasted with our experience of that causal entity. Explanatory devices should not be abstract, lying beyond the scope of our uniform and sensory experience of cause-and-effect.

This, naturally, brings us on to the question of what constitutes a material cause. Are all causes, which we have experience with, reducible to the material world and the interaction of chemical reactants? It lies as fundamentally axiomatic to rationality that we be able to detect the presence of other minds. This is what C.S. Lewis described as “inside knowledge”. Being rational agents ourselves, we have an insider’s knowledge of what it is to be rational – what it is to be intelligent. We know that it is possible for rational beings to exist and that such agents leave behind them detectable traces of their activity. Consciousness is a very peculiar entity. Consciousness interacts with the material world, and is detectable by its effects – but is it material itself? I have long argued in favour of substance dualism – that is, the notion that the mind is itself not reducible to the material and chemical constituents of the brain, nor is it reducible to the dual forces of chance and necessity which together account for much of the other phenomena in our experience. Besides the increasing body of scientific evidence which lends support to this view, I have long pondered whether it is possible to rationally reconcile the concept of human autonomy (free will) and materialistic reductionism with respect to the mind. I have thus concluded that free will exists (arguing otherwise leads to irrationality or reductio ad absurdum) and that hence materialism – at least with respect to the nature of consciousness – must be false if rationality is to be maintained.

My reasoning can be laid out as follows:

1: If atheism is true, then so is materialism.

2: If materialism is true, then the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

3: If the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain, then human autonomy and consciousness are illusory because our free choices are determined by the dual forces of chance and necessity.

4: Human autonomy exists.

From 3 & 4,

5: Therefore, the mind is not reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

From 2 & 5,

6: Therefore, materialism is false.

From 1 & 6,

7: Therefore, atheism is false.

Now, where does this leave us? Since we have independent reason to believe that the mind is not reducible to material constituents, materialistic explanations for the effects of consciousness are not appropriate explanatory devices. How does mind interact with matter? Such a question cannot be addressed in terms of material causation because the mind is not itself a material entity, although in human agents it does interact with the material components of the brain on which it exerts its effects. The immaterial mind thus interacts with the material brain to bring about effects which are necessary for bodily function. Without the brain, the mind is powerless to bring about its effects on the body. But that is not to say that the mind is a component of the brain.

We have further independent reason to expect a non-material cause when discussing the question of the origin of the Universe. Being an explanation for the existence of the natural realm itself – complete with its contingent natural laws and mathematical expressions – natural law, with which we have experience, cannot be invoked as an explanatory factor without reasoning in a circle (presupposing the prior existence of the entity which one is attempting to account for). When faced with explanatory questions with respect to particular phenomena, then, the principle of methodological materialism breaks down because we possess independent philosophical reason to suppose the existence of a supernatural (non-material) cause.

Material causes are uniformly reducible to the mechanisms and processes of chance (randomness) and necessity (law). Since mind is reducible to neither of those processes, we must introduce a third category of explanation – that is, intelligence.

When we look around the natural world, we can distinguish between those objects which can be readily accounted for by the dual action of chance and necessity, and those that cannot. We often ascribe such latter phenomena to agency. It is the ability to detect the activity of such rational deliberation that is foundational to the ID argument.

Should ID be properly regarded as a scientific theory? Yes and no. While ID theorists have not yet outlined a rigorous scientific hypothesis as far as the mechanistic process of the development of life (at least not one which has attracted a large body of support), ID is, in its essence, a scientific proposition – subject to the criteria of empirical testability and falsifiability. To arbitrarily exclude such a conclusion from science’s explanatory toolkit is to fundamentally truncate a significant portion of reality – like trying to limit oneself to material processes of randomness and law when attempting to explain the construction of a computer operating system.

Since rational deliberation characteristically leaves patterns which are distinguishable from those types of patterns which are left by non-intelligent processes, why is design so often shunned as a non-scientific explanation – as a ‘god-of-the-gaps’ style argument? Assuredly, if Darwinism is to be regarded as a mechanism which attempts to explain the appearance of design by non-intelligent processes (albeit hitherto unsuccessfully), it follows by extension that real design must be regarded as a viable candidate explanation. To say otherwise is to erect arbitrary parameters of what constitutes a valid explanation and what doesn’t. It is this arbitrarily constraints on explanation which leads to dogmatism and ideology – which, I think, we can all agree is not the goal or purpose of the scientific enterprise.

Comments
"If someone makes a choice based on a reason they might have to make that choice, is the chain of reasoning itself a cause to you." Yes, of course. Reason, in this context, is just another word for evidence evaluation. The sum of an agent's evidence evaluations, i.e reasons (which include his/her inner states), is the sufficient cause of the event, i.e. choice. Do you disagree? If a reason for a choice would not be a cause of the choice, then how could it possibly contribute to the choice?molch
August 24, 2010
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molch,
gpuccio postulates that “transcendental agents” contribute causes to a choice. But because he claims that the resulting event, the choice, is not determined, these causes are not sufficient, which means that the choice is ultimately made for no reason. In other words, in line with his above reasoning, there is no cause for the agent’s contribution to the choice one way or the other, which leads to an undetermined event (the choice), which thus occurs ultimately for no reason.
It seems to me that you're confusing "causes" with "reasons". Is a "reason" a "cause" of an event to you? If someone makes a choice based on a reason they might have to make that choice, is the chain of reasoning itself a cause to you? It seems that this is what you're saying, please forgive me if I misunderstand.Clive Hayden
August 24, 2010
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Clive, gpuccio says this in 207: "So, if two agents, as you say, “will make different choices in the same situation”, that means only that one has chosen, in those circumstances, to act in harmony with truth, and the other has chosen differently. You ask why, but there is no answer to that" 'determined' is the necessary and exhaustive opposite of 'undetermined'. An event that is sufficiently caused is determined. An event that is not sufficiently caused is undetermined and occurs ultimately for no reason. gpuccio postulates that "transcendental agents" contribute causes to a choice. But because he claims that the resulting event, the choice, is not determined, these causes are not sufficient, which means that the choice is ultimately made for no reason. In other words, in line with his above reasoning, there is no cause for the agent's contribution to the choice one way or the other, which leads to an undetermined event (the choice), which thus occurs ultimately for no reason. gpuccio sort of agrees with this conclusion (see 230, 250, 263, 273). But he also ultimately wants to avoid this conclusion, and postulates that his choices are neither determined nor undetermined. (See 395 & 414 #3). I find this reasoning neither useful nor logical nor true.molch
August 24, 2010
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molch,
Sure, you can make up those concepts, and I respect your convictions that this is how things are, but you have just rendered the meaning of the concepts “caused” and “determined” useless by that move.
How so? They seem perfectly useful (and true) to me. Clive Hayden
August 24, 2010
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vividbleau,
When I start thinking about free will my mind immediately is drawn to all the things it is not free from!!
Apparently, Green would have us be free of being a human being in order to have free will. There are, of course, things that define a human being, change enough of them and you won't have a human any more. This is stacking the deck in how you define free will and determinism. You cannot rule out humanity from the definition of free will without begging the question, for the issue then becomes definitional, and you're no longer arguing the merits of a foundation we both agree on, but rather Green is arguing from the definition of it, which we do not agree on. Clive Hayden
August 24, 2010
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#550 Gpuccio So I would ask you explicitly: do you really believe that we here at UD are creationists? That ID and creationism are the same thing? And, just to make it personal, that I am a creationist? Just to know… It is not an issue I find important. But if it helps. I define creationist as someone who believes that a divinity was responsible for life. Given that, the short answer is: (a) I am pretty sure that most ID supporters are also creationists. (b) I believe that creationism is an inevitable consequence of ID but some ID supporters may not realise that. (c) I am pretty sure you think a divinity is responsible for life so I guess I have to say I think you are a creationist - although you do not explicitly say so. (I don't think of "creationist" as a perjorative term, although I do think creationists are wrong. I think YEC is just daft and not worth debating)markf
August 24, 2010
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Molch: Cause has to do with influence factors that may be contributory, necessary or sufficient. Determinism is a particular doctrine about reality that holds not that events have causes -- "that which has a beginning or can go out of existence has a cause" -- but that they are the playing out of a dynamical process that renders us passive and unfree. In the raw form, it in effect5 outright denies that we can make choices or change the predetermined flow of the cosmos in any significant sense. It denies the freedom of the person. In the subtler compatibilist form, by imposing a curtain at the point where one acts on an impulse it says that freedom is that little slice. However, behind the curtain, it holds that we are just as predetermined by the chain of pre-existing causal processes as classic determinism. Both are fundamentally incompatible with true freedom to love, think and act as and for oneself. And both end in self referential incoherence, as has been repeatedly pointed out. We may most easily see that by the implicaitons tha the first perceived fact of being a conscious, deciding, thinking and acting creature are delusional. If so central a feature of our consious intelligent life is delusional, we have no grounds for putting any reliance on cognition. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 24, 2010
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gpuccio @ 552: in 273 you agreed with my 263, so I am confused why you now insist that "even if you are free to believe that my position is not a “logically defendable philosophical conclusion”, that does not make it a “religious conviction”.". But, fine, be that as it may, I am happy that we can obviously both agree that "it makes it an illogical and non defendable philosophical conclusion". That's really all I wanted to point out. " “Determined” and “undetermined” are word which can be defined in very different ways. So are “caused” and “uncaused”. " No. These words have very clear definitions. If everybody could make up their own definitions for words and then use them however they pleased, we wouldn't be able to have a meaningful dialogue at all. "With my use of those words, any phenomenal event is caused by something, but some events are caused only by previous phenomenal events (and we call them “determined”), while other events are cause both by previous phenomenal events and by transcendental principles, like our self. If you include transcendental agents in the concept of cause (which I do), then all phenomenal events are caused, but not all of them are determined." Sure, you can make up those concepts, and I respect your convictions that this is how things are, but you have just rendered the meaning of the concepts "caused" and "determined" useless by that move. In the context of your concept, I have no idea what the meaning of "determined" or "undetermined" or "caused" or "uncaused" could possibly be. That's exactly why I said (and you seemed to agree), that your conclusion is illogical and not defendable.molch
August 24, 2010
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@553: Obviously, I meant "don't confuse caustion with [determinism].StephenB
August 24, 2010
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---vividbleau: "I say this because for a choice to be made something must sufficiently cause ( determine) the choice. The cause, the determiner, of these choices I would contend is the persons “most want” at the time the choice is made." Vivid, don't confuse causation with determination. Every choice is caused in the sense that God created will and the will's capacity to make that choice. God, as creator, endowed humans with the power to create new things and make free choices. What that means is that humans, by virtue of their faculties of intellect and will can also be creators and choice makers. Also, every choice is caused in the sense that humans were designed to be happy only with God. Thus, our very nature and the capacity to be happy only on condition that we love God is caused. The powers of intellect and will, which allow humans to create are caused but not determined. Mozart's piano compositions, for example, were caused in the sense that the capacity to conceive them did not come from Mozart [or from out of nowhere, as the materialists would have it]. God created those capacities and, as a result, humans enjoy true creativity and freedom of the will because God endowed them with a scaled down version of his own creative faculty and his own power of thinking and willing. That is what it means to be made in his image. Thus, just as God was not determined or required to create us, we are not required or determined to create or to make the choices that we make. We could have created differently or chosen differently. A Good jazz artist creates something different every night. A genius can even compose in the middle of a performance. It is for that same reason that we are responsible for our choices. We can, in fact, abuse the privilege of thinking and willing by choosing to harbor bad feelings, think bad thoughts, and do bad things. Our will can, through improper use, become perverted and even non-human. On the other hand, it can, through proper use, become strengthed to the point of heroic virtue. To deny the freedom of the will is to deny both vice and virtue and render every human action a mere non-human reaction.StephenB
August 24, 2010
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molch: your use of logic is, IMO, very arbitrary. "Determined" and "undetermined" are word which can be defined in very different ways. So are "caused" and "uncaused". With my use of those words, any phenomenal event is caused by something, but some events are caused only by previous phenomenal events (and we call them "determined"), while other events are cause both by previous phenomenal events and by transcendental principles, like our self. If you include transcendental agents in the concept of cause (which I do), then all phenomenal events are caused, but not all of them are determined. I never said that "the law of cause and effect must be suspended in my position". That you state such a thing is proof of how poorly you understand what I say. My phrase was (anybody can check, at #207, and you correctly quote it at #230): "Very simply, I see the self as a transcendental reality. That means that we cannot apply the law of cause and effect to it in the same way we apply it to external obkects, or even to mental states." As you can say, it's a completely different concept, and it is exactly what I have said above. Finally, even if you are free to believe that my position is not a "logically defendable philosophical conclusion", that does not make it a "religious conviction". At most, it makes it an illogical and non defendable philosophical conclusion. If you had just stated that, I would have simply disagreed and answered, and you would never have "hurt my sensibilites".gpuccio
August 24, 2010
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In case someone is interested: I have posted a couple of answers to Mark on his blog, whose link he gives at 539.gpuccio
August 24, 2010
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Mark: I believe that KF has a point at 545. I feel a bit mistreated too, when labeled as "creationist" (not because I have anything against creationists, but because simply I am not one). So I would ask you explicitly: do you really believe that we here at UD are creationists? That ID and creationism are the same thing? And, just to make it personal, that I am a creationist? Just to know...gpuccio
August 24, 2010
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PS: Here is WmAD on the difference, in reply to critiques from HM. PPS: Pardon, as usual typos I missed, and for some reason I am struggling with is and are today.kairosfocus
August 24, 2010
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F/N: Wiki on Opportunity Cost:
Opportunity cost is the cost related to the next-best choice available to someone who has picked between several mutually exclusive choices.[1] It is a key concept in economics. It has been described as expressing "the basic relationship between scarcity and choice."[2] The notion of opportunity cost plays a crucial part in ensuring that scarce resources are used efficiently.[3] Thus, opportunity costs are not restricted to monetary or financial costs: the real cost of output forgone, lost time, pleasure or any other benefit that provides utility should also be considered opportunity costs . . . . The consideration of opportunity costs is one of the key differences between the concepts of economic cost and accounting cost. Assessing opportunity costs is fundamental to assessing the true cost of any course of action. In the case where there is no explicit accounting or monetary cost (price) attached to a course of action, or the explicit accounting or monetary cost is low, then, ignoring opportunity costs may produce the illusion that its benefits cost nothing at all. The unseen opportunity costs then become the implicit hidden costs of that course of action. Note that opportunity cost is not the sum of the available alternatives when those alternatives are, in turn, mutually exclusive to each other . . . . In some cases it may be possible to have more of everything by making different choices; for instance, when an economy is within its production possibility frontier. In microeconomic models this is unusual, because individuals are assumed to maximise utility, but it is a feature of Keynesian macroeconomics. In these circumstances opportunity cost is a less useful concept. In a 2005 survey at the annual meeting of American Economic Association, 21.6% of professional economists surveyed chose the correct answer to a question on opportunity cost. The researchers later asked a similar but differently phrased question, to which a majority of the economists surveyed gave an incorrect answer. When the researchers posed the original question to a larger group of college students, 7.4% of those who had taken a course in economics answered correctly, compared to 17.2% of those who had never taken one. The researchers, Paul J. Ferraro and Laura O. Taylor of Georgia State University, labeled the results "a dismal performance from the dismal science."
So muddled are we today . . . 3,000 years ago Solomon counselled:
6 Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise! 7 It has no commander, no overseer or ruler [no explicit management structures, the ant is instinctually programmed, but we are under moral government [and here, Finney has something we need to hear even if we disagree]], 8 yet it stores its provisions in summer and gathers its food at harvest. 9 How long will you lie there, you sluggard? When will you get up from your sleep? 10 A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest- 11 and poverty will come on you like a bandit and scarcity like an armed man.
kairosfocus
August 24, 2010
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Now, on substance: 1] Vivid, 540: for a choice to be made something must sufficiently cause ( determine) the choice. The cause, the determiner, of these choices I would contend is the persons “most want” at the time the choice is made. For it to be a free act it must be a choice without compulsion and in accordance with ones own desires and inclinations. This is why I say I am a determinist, my choices are determined by my “most want” at the time the choice is made. I fail to see how determinism abrogates free choice . . . Quite simple, actually: the problem is this is half the story (as it seems is ever the case with "compatibilism"). As, we see as you go on . . . 2] Now maybe it is not the deterministic part that anyone objects to , perhaps it’s the predetermined part that is the hot button everyone is reacting to? This is the pivot of the matter. If the I or self is the subject of controlling forces that program or determine the behaviour apart from our responsible decision, intention and action -- then, responsible decision, intention and action on real choices, however constrained (our strong intuition testified to by our consciousness) disappears. For TGP, that means that one then has no good grounds to account for something as simple as the composition of a post in this thread. For me, this eats out the heart of love, which is predicated on real choice, not the illusion of choice. thence, it undermines the very heart of virtue itself. And, somewhere in all this, I cannot escape the feeling that someone is equivocating the terms "determined" and "choice." Determinism has a meaning, and it is definitely not compatible with real choice, real intent, real decision. And, that runs into serious difficulty with something so simple as explaining how one chooses to put together a comment in this thread this way, or another way. On the materialist version, we are back to Crick's reductio ad absurdum in his The Astonishing Hypothesis, 1994:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.
Sorry, Philip Johnsons' rebuke was more than well deserved: Dr Crick should therefore be willing to preface his books: “I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules.” When we turn to theistic determinists, coming up in support of he materialists -- and, yes, that is the rhetorical effect even if that was not intended -- what we saw above was a distractive side-debate that ended up in the point that once the equivocation is dropped, we are back at: choice is an illusion, driven by underlying controlling forces. I contend that if we are so delusional about the very first perceived fact, our conscious,perceiving, feeling, thinking, choosing, enconscienced selves, then we have no grounds whatsoever to have any confidence in any of our onward perceptions and inferences, much less views. In short, I contend that either we take real choice -- or as GP has been driven to emphasise; real intention -- seriously, or we end up in arguing that we are in an inescapable Plato's Cave world of manipulative shadow shows. We do not even have the option of a red or a blue pill! But he very fact that the advocates of determinism seek to persuade us to decide they are right shows that they imply what they would deny: the reality of responsible choice. 3] MF, IM post: My main concern was to respond to the argument that what compatibilism does is “define away” the problem. Another way round this is to avoid defining free will at all. If you will accept that if there is true free will then it is manifest in the act of choosing, then we can talk about choosing instead. You and I both choose all the time – so I think we can agree we are talking about the same thing. The issue becomes – is choosing compatible with determinism? There seems to be no reason to reject this out of hand. Indeed, we can TALK about choosing, but once we stop truncating at the perception of choice, and ask where does choice come from on a deterministic frame, we are right back at the inescapable Plato's Cave world. The point of the will being viewed as free is that despite the circumstances that influence it and whatever necessary conditions and such like act as contributory causes, in the end it is the SELF that provides the gap between influence and sufficiency. A self -- soul, even [meaning the unified I that is conscious, perceives, feels, infers, reasons, decides and acts] -- that is truly free to go in one way or another. So, the text of this comment is not predetermined by something beyond myself, and had I wished to do so, I could choose which way to phrase this |make one option real as opposed to another | make the post significantly different as to wording or content or even choose not to post. In short, I am not acting as a robot under the control of forces beyond my ken or responsibility, whether "nature and nurture" or a controlling spirit or whatever. 4] You seem to be saying that actually when you choose you have an intuition that choosing is not determined or not fully determined (or maybe you are saying that you have an intuition of “agency” and this is something different – but in that case how do you know that agency is not determined?) This is followed by a list of strawman objections toppled over, followed by a remark that is not taken seriously, giving the false impression that it is just another easily knocked over objection:
We might find some kind of logical necessity for choice not to be determined.
What is NOT addressed cogently is that there is an issue of self-evident, undeniably true fact at work. Namely, once we understand what is being claimed and what is at stake on it, then we see that the attempted denial lands one in self-referential absurdity. For instance, if our views and positions are predetermined independent of responsible, freely made actions of reasoning and logic, then one's views -- including on this topic -- are inescapably irrational, being the fruit of manipulation or programming, not the result of right reason. So, we have no grounds for trusting ANY of the deliverances of reason. Which lands us in absurdity. And we then see the equivocation brought up to bat: 5] all compatibilism means is that people’s decisions are caused by a combination of their inner state and outer environment – they respond to their desires and beliefs – with maybe the odd random quirk thrown in. This seems to account for human behaviour quite adequately. Where does that inner state come from? What drives it? Ducked. On moral responsibility, we see . . . 6] The key problem is that we feel we usually accept people are not morally responsible if “they could not have done otherwise”. But this a modal statement. It is saying it is not possible that they could have done otherwise. Like all modal statements it there is an implicit or explicit condition. If I injure someone because I have a heart attack while driving then I could not have done otherwise through any conscious action. If I injure someone because I attack them then I could have taken a different conscious action if I had a different personality which might in turn be a function of my upbringing. There is always an “if”. There is no PAP to use Green’s phrase. But some “if”s are not adequate to clear us of moral responsibility. It may be inevitable that someone turns into a serial killer given their circumstances. They are still morally responsible for their deeds. This is a simple wrenching of words to serve the very opposite of their meaning. Suddenly, the reality of choice -- which we saw is a condition of responsibility -- disappears, and in its train we see that we have no choice but to do wrong, and we are responsible for the wrong we do. Sorry, that is absurd. A far saner view is that we are primarily responsible for our intentions. The man who has a heart attack at the wheel and harms another person may have a responsibility of negligence, as may his employer. This is the actual judgement that came out in a case where exactly that scenario happened with my former Sunday School teacher in Barbados, while he was on vacation in the US. Had the trucking firm been more responsible, the driver would not have been in a position to have a heart attack at the wheel in an intersection, costing someone his leg and nearly his life. There was a real alternative foregone. Nor is such any more mysterious than that in economics the opportunity cost of an alternative taken up is the next best alternative foregone. And that is foundational to the concept of values in economics and finance etc. It is not an airy-fairy philosophical conundrum. In fact, there is a whole discipline of Option valuation in finance, and insurance is a familiar example of an option. (If you are insured, and you crash your car, you will exercise a put option to in effect sell the wreckage to the Insurance Company. Though, in praxis they seldom take possession, and may even allow the owner to retain the wreck.) Going back to our example, if the incident had been on Sept 11, 2001, and he driver had hit my SS teacher because he had been knocked unconscious by a falling piece of Mr Atta's hijacked aircraft, then the driver and the trucking firm could not have done otherwise and would not be responsible. In that case, Mr Atta and co would have been responsible, through their act of piracy and terrorism. If, as a third possibility,t he event had been a result of an earthquake at the wrong moment that threw the truck out of control, then that too would have not been the responsibility of the firm or the driver, or of anyone else. But in the real case, the Firm was responsible to have undertaken regular health checkups for drivers of heavy commercial vehicles, that can do severe damage if they go out of control. And, just as with pilots of aircraft, if they were not healthy, they should have been stood down. That was a duty of care neglected, and the court properly found that a tort had been done. Significant compensation was awarded, and I believe the case helped enforce the principle that truck drivers are to be regularly and thoroughly tested for their health. Far from undermining the principle of real options and responsibility for doing what one ought to do, MF's case supports it. And, inadvertently shows just how deeply embedded such issues are in very real world issues that surround us day by day. _____________ GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 24, 2010
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gpuccio #544 I hope you will visit the blog. I see my comments could do with a bit of editing - but hopefully you can work out what I am saying. (I have also copied across a few other comments from my previous blog)markf
August 24, 2010
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MF: I took a moment to look at your "In Moderation" blog, themed on being in mod here. My eye was caught by the RH column, especially this little segment:
Creationism and its opponents * Panda's Thumb * Uncommon Descent
Since we know what PT is about, and since we know what Creationism means, it is pretty obvious that you are propagating the slander that Design Theory is stealth Creationism. This, you know or should know -- e.g. cf the UD Weak Argument Correctives -- is not only a falsehood but serves the malicious purpose of smearing and setting up people for persecution in academia. Specifically,
(i) the primary empirically based inference on the uniformity principle of Lyell and Darwin from reliable signs of directed contingency to the signified act of design and thence (ii) a secondary one from design to existence of a capable designer on strong empirical association between design and designer is NOT equivalent to (iii) drawing on a reading of a particular body of revelation regarded as accurate testimony as the driving force of constructing a view of the past.
You just went waaay down in my estimation. So, before I turn to matters of substance for the day, I have to make a very sad note: you are enabling a willful slander used in persecution. For shame! GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 24, 2010
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Mark (#541): Vivid – it is nice to find myself completely in agreement with you (for a change). Well, you are at least confirming one of my points :): "7) Determinism is usually motivated by one of two opposite world views: strict materialism – reductionism, or some forms of religious views." For the rest, I am going to look at your blog, and maybe post something there again (I think I will like doing that; I had a good time there in the past).gpuccio
August 24, 2010
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tgpeeler: I am really happy that you resiisted the temptation to smash your keyboard: so, you will be able to go on posting here :) I very much agree with your comments, thank you for your clarifying contribution.gpuccio
August 24, 2010
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Green: Please, take all the time you need.gpuccio
August 24, 2010
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#540 Vivid - it is nice to find myself completely in agreement with you (for a change).markf
August 24, 2010
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Clive RE 538 Clive, I don’t think Green is completely off base here. What he said was this would mean your action was determined in the sense that it was your “want to” that determined the choice you made. Frankly I am somewhat confused over this aversion to the idea that somehow if our wills are determined this negates free will , whatever that is. I think Luther said it well when he said it was an “empty term” When I start thinking about free will my mind immediately is drawn to all the things it is not free from!! Myself I don’t think there is such a thing as free will but there is such a thing as free choice. I think a lot of confusion would be eliminated if we discarded the term altogether. I have always thought of the will as something like a horse with a rider, or the steering wheel of a car. The will is turned this way or that by the rider of the horse or the driver of the car. If it is not turned then no choice happens. In short the will is not free from the rider or the driver, indeed can never be free. It is inconceivable to me that anyone, as it relates to the will, would not be a determinist. I say this because for a choice to be made something must sufficiently cause ( determine) the choice. The cause, the determiner, of these choices I would contend is the persons “most want” at the time the choice is made. For it to be a free act it must be a choice without compulsion and in accordance with ones own desires and inclinations. This is why I say I am a determinist, my choices are determined by my “most want” at the time the choice is made. I fail to see how determinism abrogates free choice furthermore I would contend we all are determinists as well. Can a choice be any freer than a choice made because we determined to make it? Now maybe it is not the deterministic part that anyone objects to , perhaps it's the predetermined part that is the hot button everyone is reacting to? Vividvividbleau
August 24, 2010
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Gpuccio #484 I think this thread has become unworkably long so I made some further responses on my own blog which may interest you. Markmarkf
August 23, 2010
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Green,
You are saying that “because I want to” is a reason (an inner state). Well in that case, your action is determined by (one of) your inner state(s). This is not libertarianism.
Would being something other than a human being finally have a claim to libertarian free will? It seems anything ever done, or ever experienced (i.e. mental states, etc.), by a human you incorporate into determinism. This is stacking the deck, and I'm not sure that it has any real tenets or anything real to hold onto, for it is looking like it claims the who show of what it means to be a human. What is libertarian free will to you then? Is it something that you define as something non-human?Clive Hayden
August 23, 2010
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re Green @ 530 "You are saying that “because I want to” is a reason (an inner state). Well in that case, your action is determined by (one of) your inner state(s). This is not libertarianism." IF Libertarian free will requires an agent not to have his choices causally determined by anything, not even himself, THEN I would agree that libertarian free will is pretty much a meaningless concept. HOWEVER, a quick review of the Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy (2nd Edition, pp. 326-328) entry on the "free will problem" makes no such claim. Oh look, the Oxford Guide To Philosophy has an entry on "Freedom and determinism" pp. 313-315. And guess what, no such claim there either. This is not to say that your definition of the term is incorrect, it is only to request that you cite some authority other than yourself that this is the generally accepted definition of "libertarian free will" and not some bastardized rendition. Wait, never mind, you'll just use this to go off on another tangent and avoid me once again. So forget that. In any case, I will argue now from a position that I will henceforth call "volitional libertarianism" (VL) that renders your peculiar definition moot, even if it is the generally accepted use of the term. VL means that I do have free will and that I can make free choices even in the presence of past choices, actions, training, education, the laws of physics, et cetera, et cetera et cetera. This means that if my choice ultimately boils down to a simple "because I want to," and I could have chosen otherwise, that constitutes free will. This is not to claim lack of influence on choices by past or present or anticipated future circumstances, nor is it a claim to unfettered free will, I cannot decide to be God, for example, or a lion. My free will operates within parameters, we could quibble about what they are, but IN THE END, the ultimate cause is because I WANT TO. I remember my daughter, as a small child, justifying to me why she wanted one alternative over another. Her answer, "biz I do" sums this up nicely. Now, given this admitted off the cuff and probably not nearly complicated enough for the philosophers description of free will as being ultimately making free choices because I can and I want to, we can see a couple of things. First of all, my argument about how free will is necessary for the origination of language is back on the table, front and center, as it were. BTW, I notice that my track record is intact. Not only will you not engage my argument, you won't even mention it!!! How lame is that? You think you can distract or deflect but I'm holding you to this. It's post #521 if you want to go back and refresh your memory. Second of all, we now have, once again, a coherent explanation of moral responsibility that can be expressed in terms that anybody can understand. We are back in the land of "ought" and "should." We should do good things and avoid doing evil things and we can choose which one we do! And it accrues to our credit when we choose good! And to our discredit when we do not! See how easy this is? Just for fun... oh yes, at post 521 I opined that you would reply with something irrelevant to my argument and guess what???!!! You are two for two!! #523 and #530. Neither contains A WORD about my claim that destroys determinism, if it's true, that is. So don't you feel compelled to prove me wrong? It's odd, I would think that my poking this metaphorical stick in your eye would force you to defend your idea. But I guess not. Maybe you can see into the future if you do actually engage and see that your position holds water like a sieve so rather than face that you continue to deflect and deny. Please do one of two things if you ever reply to this post. Either actually engage my argument or please stop with all the vacuous and inane nonsense. Thanks so very, very much. No, really. I mean that. Well, if I could really mean that, I mean. Cause if you are right, then I can't really not mean that, because I have to mean that but then, that takes away the meaning of "I mean," I guess, because I have to mean it and I'd have to have the choice of meaning it or not in order to really mean it. But I have to guess, because I said I guess earlier so now I have to, I guess, because I'm writing it down but that means I did it and didn't guess about it so now I'm wondering if my guess is predetermined then I'm not really guessing either because, well, oh heck, if I could possibly "really mean that" in your world then I do. Gets kind of confusing in there, don't it? p.s. Friends, I'm about ready to smash my keyboard into a million pieces from wading through all of this, this, insanity. But somehow, even though I am predisposed by temperament, training, and by my recent and current experiences, I manage to resist doing that. I think I just empirically proved free will...tgpeeler
August 23, 2010
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---Green: “But as I don’t know what your inner mental states are, I cannot give you a straight (a) or (b) with regards to whether you can stop this behaviour.” Position 1: I cannot be held accountable for my moral behavior or intent because you don't know my mental states. “(But as you know, I still think you are morally responsible if the case in question is choosing something immoral.)” Position 2. I can be held accountable for my moral behavior or intent regardless of my mental state.StephenB
August 23, 2010
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---"“But as I don’t know what your inner mental states are,"''' What if the Sixth Commentment tells me not to commit adultery or fornicate but my mental states tell me to "go for it."StephenB
August 23, 2010
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---Green: "(But as you know, I still think you are morally responsible if the case in question is choosing something immoral.)" Yes, I understand your position perfectly. I am responsible for making a choice that I cannot make.StephenB
August 23, 2010
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---Green: "But as I don’t know what your inner mental states are, I cannot give you a straight (a) or (b) with regards to whether you can stop this behaviour." Why it is, then, that you asked me to stop that behavior?StephenB
August 23, 2010
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