Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Intelligent design requires evidence: Ah, but what can be considered evidence?

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Recently, an ID-friendly scientist assured me that intelligent design would easily be accepted if only the ID guys would come up with evidence. To my mind, that shows the difficulty people have in understanding what is at stake: the very question of what may count as evidence. Here is how I replied:   
Bench science, like book editing, is independent of content under normal circumstances.

But as Thomas Kuhn points out in Structure of Scientific Revolutions, paradigms determine what counts as evidence.

Mark what follows:

If materialism is assumed to be true and Darwinism is the creation story of materialism, then Darwinism is the best available explanation for the history of life.

So Darwinism is treated as true.

I am NOT saying that that follows logically.

Materialism could be true but its orthodox creation story could be untrue at the same time. Some other materialist story could better account for the evidence, for example.

However, most people do not think that way. (I am describing a course of mental events here, not a logical argument.)

Because Darwinism is treated as true, questioning it is irrational or malign.

If you are a scientist, it is no defence to say that you have uncovered evidence against Darwinism. That makes you a heretic.

Don’t try claiming that you do science better without Darwinism. If you don’t believe it, you shouldn’t be doing science at all, right?

The purpose of science is to uncover the evidence for materialism, and you may as well deny Genesis in a God-fearing chapel as deny Darwinism at the Smithsonian.

You could outperform all your colleagues in research and accomplish nothing except get yourself denied tenure.

What if a theory that clashes with Darwinism better explains changes over time (and even makes verified predictions)?

Well, here’s where the importance of a materialist paradigm comes in: Any explanation that conforms to Darwinism will be preferred to any explanation that does not conform to it – irrespective of a difference in explanatory power that favours the latter.

In the research for the neuroscience book for which I am Montreal neuroscientist Mario Beauregard’s co-author (The Spiritual Brain, Harper, March 2007), I found that really inane and unsatisfactory explanations for various mental states were preferred if they supported the materialist paradigm, over against better explanations that didn’t particularly support it. Sometimes it was ludicrous. But always it was deadly serious.

Kuhn’s Structure is a very useful book to read, for understanding how paradigms determine what can even be considered as evidence.

Thus, in my humble opinion, evidence that supports an ID perspective will be primarily useful to the ID scientists themselves in understanding their own view of the world.

It will be useless for making any general point against the materialist paradigm. ID-friendly evidence will merely be shelved as a problem to be solved or reinterpreted along materialist lines, no matter how flimsy.

So yes, by all means, ID guys, find evidence - but mainly to educate yourself and sketch out your own theory. The more evidence you find, the more unwelcome you will be elsewhere.

ID biochemist Mike Behe was compared to Osama bin Laden in Biology and Philosophy (2003), and that wasn’t because he was thought to be a crank. One doesn’t compare a crank to Osama bin Laden.

Note: bin laden? Yes … here’s the note from By Design or by Chance? “Tamler Sommers and Alex Rosenberg explain in “Darwin’s nihilistic idea: evolution and the meaninglessless of life,” Biology and Philosophy 18: 653–668, 2003 http://www.kluweronline.com/issn/0169-3867 that “Stalin or Osama bin Laden, or Michael Behe, or your favourite villain, is also “an utterly idiosyncratic structure …” The message of the article is that Darwinism requires nihilism. It’s not clear just how these folks understand the nihilism but the grouping of names is unsettling.”
  
After I posted this item to the Post-Darwinist, a commenter kindly noted the following:

At Saturday, October 28, 2006 6:57:24 PM, Jim Sherwood said…

It seems that Michael Behe has done excellent scientific research. He has been listed in American Men and Women of Science, the century-old biographical dictionary of “leaders” in American science, since the edition published in 1994: for 12 years. He is cited for research in the structure of DNA, among other things, in AMWS. He was first listed at the relatively young age of 42.

Since biologist Jerry Coyne has attacked Behe in The New Republic as somehow a “third-rate biologist,” it seems strange that Coyne has never been listed in AMWS. And Coyne published his Ph.D thesis in 1978, so he can’t be much younger than Behe, who is 54 and published his thesis in the same year.

Perhaps Coyne will get better “reviews” from his “peers” as a scientist if he writes enough articles in nonscientific magazines attacking intelligent design theory? Who knows?

Well, yes, Jim, but if I were a Darwinist just now, I would prefer to attack ID than defend Darwinism. Lots of chuckleheads would applaud me for attacking ID even if I wasn’t making any sense at all, but defending Darwinian evolution is currently hard work and slim pickings. You know the sort of thing: Black squirrels survive in Washington, D.C., just as they do in Toronto. Galapagos finches fatten their beaks, or else they thin them, depending on the season. The human race is supposedly dividing  into clever gods vs. moronic dwarfs, though this has never happened before for tens of thousands of years. 

All I ever say about any of this is, no wonder there is an intelligent design controversy and it does not go away! 

 

Comments
Common descent and modification over time are irrelevant to ID. You can believe in those things and still be an IDer. You can disbelieve and still be an IDer. . .I do not believe this is true. Michael Behe believes in common descent and modification over time. He is an IDer. Young Earth Creationists don't believe in common descent and modification over time. Accordng to opponents of ID, they are IDers. I think that if you want ID to be a valid scientific theory it has to accept common descent with modification. It's not a matter of what I want or what you want, it's what describes reality. If ID does better than the existing model, then it has to be accepted as a valid scientific theory regardless of any other conditions. Otherwise you are talking about special creation Why would that be unscientific? Advocates of abiogenesis pretty much claim this and they are considered scientific. or extranatural interference with physical laws. ID specifically refrains from addressing this as it does common descent and the age of the Earth. Well it wouldn’t be a PR stunt. Name changes are always PR stunts. If ID accepts common descent, ID has nothing to do with common descent, pro or con. scientists who believe in “intelligent design” can go about studying “Darwinian” mechanisms They can do that now. All ID is simply an objective claim backed by evidence that it is more reasonable to believe that life was designed rather than to have occurred by accident. If you want to belive that all of life's manifistations were coded by a designer into a single cell 3.9 billion years ago and evolved via undirected means into the biodiversity today, fine. You're an IDer. If you want to believe all life was created according to kind 6,000 or so years ago, fine. You're an IDer. If you want to believe in something in between, fine. You're still an IDer. What you can't believe is that we are here by random events. Another point, common descent is getting a little fuzzy even among ID skeptics.tribune7
October 30, 2006
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Sorry about the quoting mistake above.... forgot to preview. This forum desperately needs an editing function. Mods, please feel free to fix my tag error in the above post.mattison0922
October 30, 2006
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Joseph wrote
Again I ask what WOULD be an ‘appropriate’ experiment for ID to undertake? For all your dancing you have yet to answer that simple question. Dancing? You are a drama queen aren't you ? In any case, I believe your question is asked with full knowledge of a thread on the ARN wherein I (using the same username) outlined a very rough idea of one such research project. I'm almost 100% sure you remember this thread, and I believe you commented on it in this forum. In any case, I would simply refer you there to save myself one whole heck of a lot of typing.
As in…? We have already been told that there is no way to predict what will be selected for at any point in time, so exactly what predictions are you talking about? Is this true? I don't think this is true. We certainly can predict in a general way things that might happen. With antibiotic resistance, one can predict with some degree of accuracy the systems that will be selected for. Antibiotic resistance was in fact predicted by ToE. Admittedly mechanisms of resistance were more prolific and diverse than originally predicted, but this is likely more a reflection of our ignorance re: mechanisms of genomic rearrangement than an inadequacy in the ToCD. Genetic homology, are also predicted by ToCD, and while genetic homology may also be predicted by 'common design,' what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. IOW, don't claim genetic homology is somehow 'evidence' for common design, but not evidence for common descent.
Just about anything else would fit in to the Creation model of “variation within a Kind” and therefore by saying it is research of the ToE is a bit deceptive.
Whether or not they'll fit into a creation model is not relevant. I don't deny that evidence obtained using hypotheses other than creation/ID can yield evidence that has implications for creation/ID. This isn't in dispute. For some reason, you're continuing to obscure the only point I've made: ID has no active 'wet' research program, and ToE does. ID desperately needs an active research program if it wants to establish itself as a legitimate science. I'm sorry that this bothers you, and I'm sorry that you can't face it. ToE based 'wet' research programs exist; lots of people make a good living off of 'em. ID basesd 'wet' research programs may exist, but thus far, no one outside of a select few prominent ID theorists knows about them or their discoveries. Like I said, if someone wants to put me up, I'll do the experiments. You guys (MJB, WmAD, PEJ) listening (reading) up there???mattison0922
October 30, 2006
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mattison922: But to answer your question, I don’t think ‘designing a flagellum’ would be an appropriate experiment for ID to undertake. Again I ask what WOULD be an 'appropriate' experiment for ID to undertake? For all your dancing you have yet to answer that simple question. mattison922: No one is implying that all research is a consequence of ToE, only those projects that use ToE as their basis for hypothesis formation, and generation of predictions. As in...? We have already been told that there is no way to predict what will be selected for at any point in time, so exactly what predictions are you talking about? For example is anyone researching the premise that single-celled organisms can “evolve” into something other than single-celled organisms? mattison922: Perhaps. I don’t know to be honest with you. So are you implying that this is the only valid research path available to ToE. I would beg to differ with you about this. Just about anything else would fit in to the Creation model of "variation within a Kind" and therefore by saying it is research of the ToE is a bit deceptive.Joseph
October 30, 2006
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mattison0922: "Of course not. No one is implying that all research is a consequence of ToE, only those projects that use ToE as their basis for hypothesis formation, and generation of predictions." Yes. Thank you.great_ape
October 30, 2006
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Joseph wrote:
ID doesn’t do research, IDists do. And I am very much FOR IDists doing research. As a matter of fact it was scientific research that led Gonzalez to the design inference beyond biology. And THAT is the point- scientists should conduct their scientific research and if the data warrants it they should be able to infer ID.
Okay, semantics aside, I have no problem with any of what you've stated above. I think scientists should feel free to pursue whatever hypotheses they feel the data leads them to. I've never said anything but this.
So again I ask- if an IDist goes into a lab and designs a bacterial flagellum would that satisfy you? IOW what experiment will make you happy?
I don't recall you asking me this question, but whatever. In any case, it's not me that you should be attempting to satisfy. I'm a working scientist who supports the 'right' of IDists to pursue their hypotheses. So in that sense I am 'convinced.' But to answer your question, I don't think 'designing a flagellum' would be an appropriate experiment for ID to undertake.
Also exactly what research do you think is attributed to the ToE?
All research where the researchers used ToE as their basis for hypothesis formation and generation of predictions.
For example is anyone researching the premise that single-celled organisms can “evolve” into something other than single-celled organisms?
Perhaps. I don't know to be honest with you. So are you implying that this is the only valid research path available to ToE. I would beg to differ with you about this.
IOW just because there is scientific research being conducted in no way implies said research is based on the ToE.
Of course not. No one is implying that all research is a consequence of ToE, only those projects that use ToE as their basis for hypothesis formation, and generation of predictions.mattison0922
October 30, 2006
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Mattison922: Which brings a highly relevant point to mind: why is it that you’re so opposed to ID doing research? ID doesn't do research, IDists do. And I am very much FOR IDists doing research. As a matter of fact it was scientific research that led Gonzalez to the design inference beyond biology. And THAT is the point- scientists should conduct their scientific research and if the data warrants it they should be able to infer ID. So again I ask- if an IDist goes into a lab and designs a bacterial flagellum would that satisfy you? IOW what experiment will make you happy? Also exactly what research do you think is attributed to the ToE? For example is anyone researching the premise that single-celled organisms can "evolve" into something other than single-celled organisms? IOW just because there is scientific research being conducted in no way implies said research is based on the ToE.Joseph
October 30, 2006
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Anyone who thinks a snowflake looks designed has no understanding of engineering or design.
and yet if the same snowflake pattern were to be found cut into a field of corn, I suspect you would have no problem intuitively recognising it as as designed, just from the pattern :-)steveh
October 30, 2006
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Joseph wrote
mattison0922, perhaps you should read what Dr Skell and Davison have to say about the ToE and research programs:
Darwinian evolution – whatever its other virtues – does not provide a fruitful heuristic in experimental biology. This becomes especially clear when we compare it with a heuristic framework such as the atomic model, which opens up structural chemistry and leads to advances in the synthesis of a multitude of new molecules of practical benefit.None of this demonstrates that Darwinism is false. It does, however, mean that the claim that it is the cornerstone of modern experimental biology will be met with quiet skepticism from a growing number of scientists in fields where theories actually do serve as cornerstones for tangible breakthroughs.
Joseph, because I rarely post on this blog, doesn't mean I don't read it. I am aware of Dr. Skells recent comments, and I am further aware of Davison and his PEH. In any case, it appears that Davison's opinion isn't valuable enough around here to keep him from being banned. Though I am not here to debate the moderation policy. Joseph, you're still missing the point. Nowhere, here or in any other forum have I ever claimed evolution or Darwinism is the 'cornerstone of modern biology.' Furtermore, whether or not it's a 'fruitful heuristic in terms of experimental biology,' is not entirely relevant either. The research program may not be 'fruitful,' but it nonetheless exists. Now you can go and find some other quote that further substantiates your idea that evolutionary research amounts to 'nothing,' and is 'not fruitful.' But it doesn't change the fact that the research is there to discuss, dismiss, or whatever it is you choose to do with evidence that isn't to your liking. ID, no matter what its scientific potential, no matter how valid its arguments may be, no matter how much 'secret' research is happening, can't make this same claim. For you to argue otherwise is just bad for the ID movement. What you're doing by doing this is making ID about being anti-evolution, not about being ID. Surely you must realize this is bad for the movement, and in my understanding, is not really what the movement is supposed to be about. Which brings a highly relevant point to mind: why is it that you're so opposed to ID doing research? The crux of my statement in this forum was that ID needs to do some 'wet' science, a seemingly reasonable request for a discipline that appears to be trying hard to establish itself as a legitimate scientific pursuit. For some reason, you apparently find this incredibly unreasonable. What is it about IDist's getting in the lab and doing some experiments that is so bothersome to you?mattison0922
October 30, 2006
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DaveScot: Necessity in the context of the evolutionary mechanism “chance and necessity” means functional necessity. I would like to see a reference for that. What happens when I produce an evolutionist who uses it as I did? And it should be noted that we were not discussing "evolutionary mechanism" as we were not discussing living organisms. DaveScot: Snowflake patterns are non-functional. There is quite a bit of non-functional, yet designed, art in this world. There are aesthetic non-functional yet still designed pieces on many a functional structure/ object.Joseph
October 30, 2006
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I've enjoyed reading through this thread, especially the discussion about snowflakes, as that's an argument I run up against frequently. What strikes me about comparing snowflakes with DNA (for example) is that while both DNA and a snowflake might have an exquisite molecular structure that's aesthetically pleasing, a snowflake does not carry instructions for building anything… not even the snowflake itself. DNA carries instructions for building and operating a living organism… ANY living organism. This fact makes the comparison totally invalid, and exposes another cheap rhetorical device used by ID bashers as an attempt to create confusion around the issue.TRoutMac
October 30, 2006
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mjb2001: I think that if you want ID to be a valid scientific theory it has to accept common descent with modification. It does. ID also accepts special creation- YEC or OEC. mjb2001: If you can be an “IDer” and disbelieve in common descent then ID cannot ever be a mechanistic theory. ID isn't a mechanistic theory, that is beyond design being a valid mechanism. As Wm Dembski states in NFL that is a separate question- (the How was it designed/ how was the design implemented). IOW one can detect design and study it without A) knowing its purpose or the intent of the designer and B) knowing how it was designed or manufactured. Reality demonstrates that in the absence of designer input or direct observation the ONLY posible way to make any determination about the designer, the purpose or the methodology is by studying the design in question by gathering all relevant data. I would love to see someone, anyone address common descent. Especially in light of what we do know- that population variation wobbles- IOW wobbling stability is what we observe. And that does not lead to the range of change required if all of life's diversity owes its collective common ancestry to some unknown population(s) of single-celled organisms (that just happened to have the ability to (imperfectly) asexually reproduce). Genetic homeostasis is real. Only fanciful uses of chance, selection and eons of time gets beyond observation. However every objective person understands that is not how science is conducted.Joseph
October 30, 2006
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mattison0922, perhaps you should read what Dr Skell and Davison have to say about the ToE and research programs: Dr Skell on UD:
Darwinian evolution – whatever its other virtues – does not provide a fruitful heuristic in experimental biology. This becomes especially clear when we compare it with a heuristic framework such as the atomic model, which opens up structural chemistry and leads to advances in the synthesis of a multitude of new molecules of practical benefit.None of this demonstrates that Darwinism is false. It does, however, mean that the claim that it is the cornerstone of modern experimental biology will be met with quiet skepticism from a growing number of scientists in fields where theories actually do serve as cornerstones for tangible breakthroughs.
Joseph
October 30, 2006
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Common descent and modification over time are irrelevant to ID. You can believe in those things and still be an IDer. You can disbelieve and still be an IDer. I do not believe this is true. I think that if you want ID to be a valid scientific theory it has to accept common descent with modification. Otherwise you are talking about special creation or extranatural interference with physical laws. If you are correct, ID has a problem. If you can be an "IDer" and disbelieve in common descent then ID cannot ever be a mechanistic theory. I understand that ID claims not to be a mechanistic theory but if it's going to be on the forefront of biological history theories it's going to have to eventually come around to finding one. And that mechanism cannot deny common descent. It can have mechanisms of special creation peppered in, like extra-fast mutation rates, but it has to address the issue of common descent sooner or later. Which is why I said that it needs to divorce itself from creationism, which it has not successfully done. And why should you expect a true scientist to be swayed by a PR stunt like, well, changing a name? Well it wouldn't be a PR stunt. It would be honest research. If ID accepts common descent, scientists who believe in "intelligent design" can go about studying "Darwinian" mechanisms and refuting them with other, smaller and stepwise hypotheses. If you pepper mainstream research with little observations about the failure of certain mechanisms to account for X Y or Z, you begin to build your base, so to speak. And then thrity years from now, IDers might be able to make their case. My research involves the regulation of integral membrane proteins by the mechanical properties of the lipid bilayer. The fact that cell membranes could possible control protein function was anathema thirty or forty years ago, although that was when the seeds of the ideas were being started. It's only been in the last ten years or so that the idea has caught on because of the immense amounts of supporting data for the hypothesis and emergant technologies that allow us to model and probe such interactions. This work did not start with a PR campaign to get a loosy-goosy hypothesis into high school text books. Granted, it's a much smaller theory than evolution, but that is how it should work. And that's what I'm suggesting for ID; drop the name and drop the grand claims.mjb2001
October 30, 2006
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My opinion, only that: If the reality is common descent, and if ID has disbelievers in common descent, then ID will not likely get a hearing outside the true believers that it already has. On the other hand, if common descent is the reality, and it is accepted, then the movement is free to research and discuss the weaknesses of chance and could gain a wider hearing.bj
October 30, 2006
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Joseph wrote:
What research program does the ToE have?
Surely you can't be serious.
What research is being condusted to see whether or not suingle-celled organisms can “evolve” into anything but single-celled organisms?
This is hardly the only relevant idea in ToE. That you would deny ToE is associated with an active research program speaks volumes. Apparently, you consider the decades of hard work done by scientists that does support the notion of common descent as 'nothing.' Nice attitude. Positions such as this are incredibly damaging to the credibility of the ID movement as a whole. You deny the ToE is associated with an active research program, simply because you consider the program inadequate. While I am supportive of the ID movement as a whole, I can't support such a ridiculous notion as the ToE not being associated with active research. Whether or not you think ToE's research program is adequate is hardly relevant. It's infinitely 'more adequate' than ID's non-existant research program.mattison0922
October 30, 2006
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Joseph Necessity in the context of the evolutionary mechanism "chance and necessity" means functional necessity. There is no necessity in snowflakes. They are a result of chance and law not chance and necessity. Snowflake patterns are non-functional. The pattern serves no particular purpose. It's necessary for nothing.DaveScot
October 30, 2006
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Joseph Oh yeah, we do that now with snow-making machines. Would that snow be considered designed? This at least raises a talking point. We'll set aside for the sake of argument the fact that snow making machines produce irregular bits of ice so there's no lacy patterns to charm anyone into thinking they might be designed. Snow produced by a snow making machine (if we didn't know how it was produced) would not warrant a design inference. The possibility of false negatives in design detection is a given. A designed object can look for all intents and purposes like a naturally formed object. We don't really care about mistakes in that direction. What we care about is not generating false positives (an undesigned object getting a design warrant). Towards that end we must construct our filter to err on the side of not-designed. This is why the mere pattern, however complex, exhibited by snowflakes is not sufficient to even begin consideration of a design warrant. There must also be detachable specification in the pattern. In all cases except for works of art specification is simply a functional purpose. In possibly man-made objects like firepits, arrowheads, and potsherds there is detachable specification in each case. The same holds true for biological objects like genes, ribosomes, and cell walls. All have detachable specification. They conform to an independently given function. Until there is a detachable specification identified there is no cause to go rooting about for probabilistic resources. The object is filtered out of any possible positive design warrant earlier in the filtering process if specification is lacking. This may in fact create false negatives but if we didn't do it this way we open ourselves up to false positives. False positives are show stoppers. If there's a reasonable chance of a false positive the filter is useless.DaveScot
October 30, 2006
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IOW chance and necessity are all that is required to explain snowflakes. DaveScot: What are snowflakes necessary to? Necessity has several meanings and synonyms-> unavoidability and inevitability being two. So when chance has it- that being the weather conditions are correct- snow happens- it's inevitable and unavoidable. Dave Scot: The vast majority of snowflakes are irregular. The snowflakes derived via chance and necessity, sure. Dave Scot: Patterned flakes aren’t even necessary for skiing. Perhaps patterned snowflakes offer the best skiing. Then we would also have to consider any artistic purpose. Again perhaps specifically patterned snowflakes offer the best aesthetic value. BTW Dave, I did say I was playing "devil's advocate". ..Joseph
October 30, 2006
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Joseph IOW chance and necessity are all that is required to explain snowflakes What are snowflakes necessary to? The vast majority of snowflakes are irregular. Patterned flakes aren't even necessary for skiing. You're babbling. Stop. DaveScot
October 30, 2006
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frisbee: Using the existence of designed machines as an analog of intentional design in nature is not justified until machines start having babies. Machines can be replicated. As a matter of fact in chapter 4 of "Darwin's Ghost" Dr Jones used an analogy of machined parts to illustrate natural selection. It should also be noted that reproduction has yet to be explained- as in how did it originate- IOW the ToE starts with that which needs to be explained in the first place.Joseph
October 30, 2006
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DaveScot: Designs have purpose. When a snowflake is first observed it looks designed for what? To know that we would have to either talk to the designer or study the design/ object in question. The purpose could be to ski- you know to put down a "carpet" of snow to slide on. Oh yeah, we do that now with snow-making machines. Would that snow be considered designed? DaveScot: Ice isn’t artificial. But thanks to man we can now make ice in places where nature cannot. We can ice-skate in the summer time- thanks to artificial ice. Here is a thought experiment- Today we "know" that no two snowflakes are alike. What would you say if you went ouside during a snowstorm and EVERY snowflake you examined were exactly alike? As for the rest of your post I take it you didn't finish reading mine: IOW one’s initial inference may be snowflakes are designed but further investigation, if conducted properly (key point), would demonstrate that snowflakes are the simple result of environmental conditions. IOW chance and necessity are all that is required to explain snowflakes.Joseph
October 30, 2006
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Frisbee asked some pertinent questions. Unfortunately, those questions were already answered in The Design Inference. The probability of snowflakes is high, given the necessary and not obviously designed environs in which they form; therefore, they cannot be rigorously shown to be designed. It's that simple.jaredl
October 30, 2006
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joseph: “However from what we do know DNA does NOT make an organism what it is. IOW we know that although genes may influence every aspect of development they do NOT determine it.” great ape: Yes, DNA doesn’t determine everything about an organism, but I don’t see how that does anything to further your point. It destroys your point. great ape: And yes, shared DNA sequences could be indicative of common design, but when those shared DNAs are, for example, insertions of Herpes B Viruses, your position becomes increasingly difficult to maintain with a straight face. Perhaps those sequences just "look like" Herpes B viruses. Think about what you are trying to say- that some ERV stayed vurtually the same over illions of generations all the while changes are occurring throughout that genome that will give rise to very different (morphologically) populations. It could be that A) those really aren't viral insertions or B) there is a common mechanism at play-> that being a mechanism that allowed a similar viral sequence to insert into a similar DNA sequence in differing populations. great ape: Like I indicated in my earlier post, demonstration of common decent does not rule out certain design hypotheses, but your idea that there are no types of experiments that could corroborate evolution of species X and Y from a common ancestor–by whatever mechanism, design or chance–is simply not true. Those "experiments" assume common descent and then set out to find what those scientists would consider confirming data. However that is bass akwards. IOW there isn't any experiment that would verify the "conclusions" of the experiments to speak of.Joseph
October 30, 2006
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mjb2001: If it is serious about getting accepted in the scientific community, it needs to stop the PR campaigning, stop writing books, and stop painting itself as anti-evolution. Umm only the ID ignorant paint ID as anti-evolution.Joseph
October 30, 2006
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What predictions does ID make? Counterflow, CSI, IC, to name a few. frisbee: Those are definitions, not predictions. They HAVE definitions but they are NOT definitions. And they are predictions of ID. frisbee: It is also worth noting that those definitions are conclusions from ignorance. That is also false. Reality demonstrates they are defined from what we do know:
]“Thus, Behe concludes on the basis of our knowledge of present cause-and-effect relationships (in accord with the standard uniformitarian method employed in the historical sciences) that the molecular machines and complex systems we observe in cells can be best explained as the result of an intelligent cause. In brief, molecular motors appear designed because they were designed” Pg. 72 of Darwinism, Design and Public Education
BTW we still don't lknow how wings nor feathers came to be.Joseph
October 30, 2006
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Mattison922: In any case, the ID movement doesn’t have an active (visible) research program, whereas ToE does. What research program does the ToE have? What research is being condusted to see whether or not suingle-celled organisms can "evolve" into anything but single-celled organisms?Joseph
October 30, 2006
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Frisbee has been weeded out.DaveScot
October 29, 2006
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DaveScot Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou!!!!! I was getting a serial headache from Scaryfacts inane juvenile questions and baseless statements. ( Perhaps we should make a logic & IQ test a prerequisite here for blogging - or is that a bit too elitist?) :)lucID
October 29, 2006
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mattison0922: "Yes, they would require ID based hypotheses; I thought that was clear in my first post." I will take your word that you have fleshed out these hypotheses and experiments elsewhere. More often than not, I find that they are alluded to and never described in any amount of detail. Personally, I think if someone could come up with a good experiment that would shed some light on the matter (RM+NS vs. Design), there are many folks out there, on both sides of the aisle, with the resources and will to conduct those experiments. On the darwinian side, clearly there is much confidence among adherents, so what would there be to fear in performing these experiments? There would only be the glory to gain for getting that kernel of data that finally quieted the skeptics. On the ID side, the benefits are even more evident. So what are the specific experiments? They should be posted somewhere as a hitlist so those with adequate resources could tackle them, or, at the very least, debate how informative they would be for the fundamental question so that the hitlist could be refined to a core set of decisive experiments. Also mattison0922, when I spoke of meta-information in the genome, what I was referring to was an encoded engineering plan within the genome that exhibited a forethought of design impossible under any modern evolutionary theory. An example would be a layout (within a single genome) for not just the organism housing the genome, but also for the phylogenetic unfolding of future species from that organism. The existence of such meta-information would be entirely inconsistent with darwinian evolution. Finding such an information repository would be more than performing a literature meta-analysis, it would be a fundamental empirical observation in support of ID.great_ape
October 29, 2006
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