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Is a Modern Myth of the Metals the Answer?

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In the post below Andrew Sibley links to an extraordinary article in The Times about the link between Darwinism and the recent spate of school shootings, and in the comments Leviathan steps up to give us the obligatory “this doesn’t disprove Darwinism” response. 

Leviathan, you are missing the point.  I read the article and there is not one word in it that attacks Darwinism per se.  For all you or I know the author could be a Darwinian fundamentalist.  I take it that the point of the article is that some school shooters are influenced by Darwinian theory.  That is undeniable. 

Actually, I take that back.  I am sure there are Darwinian fundamentalists out there who would deny that any school shooter has ever been influenced by Darwinism, but that just goes to show that Darwinian fundamentalists will deny propositions they know to be true.  I should say that the proposition cannot be denied in good faith. 

The author obviously wants his readers to consider not the validity of the theory itself but the implications the theory has for ethics.  When we teach our children that their existence is an ultimately meaningless accident and that morals are arbitrary byproducts of random genetic fluctuations and mechanical necessity, should we be surprised that they place a lower value on human life than someone who is taught that all humans have inherent dignity and worth because they are made in the image of God?

What to do?  What to do?  In considering this question, I am reminded of Plato’s “noble lie.”  In The Republic Plato proposed a special class of guardians trained from infancy to rule over the other classes.  But how do we persuade the guardians to rule for the common good instead of using their power to advance their personal ambitions?  Plato comes up with the “noble lie,” specifically the myth of the metals.  The answer, Plato says, is to make the guardians believe the gods have mixed a particular type of metal with the souls of the members of the different classes of society.  While common people have bronze or iron mixed with their soul, the guardians have gold mixed with theirs.  And here is the kicker:  The guardians are to be taught that they must never acquire wealth for themselves, because the gods frown at mixing earthly gold with spiritual gold.  Talk about chasing your tail.  Plato proposes a system in which the city spends years training the guardians in all the knowledge and wisdom they have, all the while making sure that at the end of the process they are still dumb enough to believe the myth of the metals. 

There are three and only three options. 

1.  We can continue to fill our children’s heads with standard Darwinian theory (which Dennett rightly calls “universal acid”), understanding that at least some of them are going to put two and two together and realize that the acid has eaten through all ethical principles — and act accordingly.

2.  We can try to come up with a secular noble lie.  “OK kids.  You might have noticed that one of the implications of what I just taught you is that your lives are ultimately meaningless and all morals are arbitrary, but you must never act as if that is true because [fill in the noble lie of your choice, such as “morality is firmly grounded on societal norms or our ability to empathize with others”].

3.  We can teach our children the truth – that the universe reveals a wondrous ordered complexity that can only be accounted for by the existence of a super-intelligence acting purposefully.  And one of the implications of that conclusion is that God exists, and, reasoning further, He has established an objective system of morality that binds us all, and therefore the moral imperatives you feel so strongly are not just an epiphenomenon of the electro-chemical states of your brain.

Looking around I see that for the last several decades we have tried options one and two, and we have gotten what we have gotten.  I vote to give option three a run.

Comments
Seversky:
Evolution, on the other hand is expected to be a messy and wasteful process.
Careful. Don't saw that branch too aggressively. Your ability to reason is resting on it.Phinehas
November 14, 2009
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The theory of evolution describes the way things are and tries to explain why they are that way. It says nothing about the way they should be.
Seversky, every worldview says something about the way things should be. Like it or not.ellijacket
November 14, 2009
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Well Mike, frankly I like the deeper issues that theodicy brings to light than Imagining some non-existent alien race Your quote: "Let’s pretend the ID “designer” is an alien race." My Video response: SETI - Search For ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence Finds God - Almost http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiQ8Jr5B2Eobornagain77
November 14, 2009
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bornagain77:
Like I said mike, overturn the refutation of hidden variables and you can have your materialistic universe back,,, elsewise your stuck dealing with Theism head on!
Nope. Not being a physicist, I won't argue quantum physics with you, but if something is unexplainable my assumption is "we don't know" until such time as an explanation turns up. However, you seem more concerned about my views on God than the point of the last comment.mikev6
November 14, 2009
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mikev6 states, "God exists in your universe, but not in mine." Well mike as soon as you reestablish hidden variables in quantum mechanics with any sort of semblance of coherency, I guess you can then have your materialistic universe back, but until then you must settle for being in "my" theistic universe!, that is if you want to be honest with the current state of scientific evidence! Elsewise the universe you that you imagine you live in is NOT REALITY as it is currently understood by the best our science has to offer us! The primary reason the CMBR (Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation) forms a sphere around the earth is because quantum wave collapse, to its "uncertain" 3D particle/state, is dependent on "observation" in quantum mechanics; i.e. 3D reality does not truly "materialize" until a observer is present (A. Aspect). Moreover, this wave collapse, to its "uncertain" 3D particle/state, is shown by experiment to be instantaneous, and is also shown to be without regard to distance. i.e. It is universal for each observer. As well, CMBR ultimately indicates that information about all points in the universe is actually available to each "central" observer, in any part of the 4D expanding universe, simultaneously. i.e. The CMBR will form a sphere around any observer in the universe, no matter where they are in the universe, because quantum waves will collapse instantaneously, and universally, to each and every individual observer in the 4D expanding universe. This following study solidly refutes the "hidden variable" argument that has been used by materialists to try to get around the Theistic implications of this instantaneous "spooky action at a distance" found in quantum mechanics. Quantum Measurements: Common Sense Is Not Enough, Physicists Show - July 2009 Excerpt: scientists have now proven comprehensively in an experiment for the first time that the experimentally observed phenomena cannot be described by non-contextual models with hidden variables. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090722142824.htm (of note: hidden variables were postulated to remove the need for “spooky” forces, as Einstein termed them—forces that act instantaneously at great distances, thereby breaking the most cherished rule of relativity theory, that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.) I find it extremely interesting that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its "uncertain" 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that I exist? Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place,,, This is obviously a very interesting congruence in science between the very large (relativity) and the very small (quantum mechanics). A congruence they seem to be having a extremely difficult time "unifying" mathematically (Einstein, Penrose). Yet, a unification which Jesus apparently seems to have joined together with His resurrection: The Center Of The Universe Is Life - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do2KUiPEL5U The End Of Christianity - Finding a Good God in an Evil World - Pg.31 - William Dembski Excerpt: "In mathematics there are two ways to go to infinity. One is to grow large without measure. The other is to form a fraction in which the denominator goes to zero. The Cross is a path of humility in which the infinite God becomes finite and then contracts to zero, only to resurrect and thereby unite a finite humanity within a newfound infinity." http://www.designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf etc..etc..etc... There must be a sufficient transcendent cause (God/First Mover) to explain the quantum wave collapse to the "uncertain" 3D effect for "each moment" of the universe. Why, who makes much of a miracle? As to me, I know of nothing else but miracles, Whether I walk the streets of Manhattan, Or dart my sight over the roofs of houses toward the sky,,, Walt Whitman - Miracles Moreover, the transcendent cause must be sufficient to explain the semi-unique effect of 3D centrality witnessed by each individual observer in the universe. Quantum Mechanics - The Limited Role Of The Observer - Michael Strauss - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elg83xUZZBs That the "mind" of a individual observer would play such an integral yet not complete "closed system role", in the instantaneous quantum wave collapse of the universe to "3D centrality", gives us clear evidence that our "mind" is a unique entity. A unique entity with a superior quality of existence when compared to the "uncertain 3D particles" of the "material" universe. This is clear evidence for the existence of the "higher dimensional soul" of man that supersedes any "material basis" that the soul has been purported to "emerge" from. Like I said mike, overturn the refutation of hidden variables and you can have your materialistic universe back,,, elsewise your stuck dealing with Theism head on!bornagain77
November 14, 2009
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bornagain77:
Well, mikev6, it seems You want to condemn God for evil “if there is a God that is” and then use the “problem of evil” as a “scientific” argument against ID,
No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. You are the one immediately jumping to the conclusion that the ID "designer" is God. ID itself does not take this position - it even postulates that the designer could be an advanced alien race or a time-traveling biologist. Nor am I condemning God for anything - God exists in your universe, but not in mine. Your beliefs are your business and you are perfectly entitled to them. Also, if you re-read my previous comment, I'm not even making an argument against ID. I'm making the assumption that Dembski, Behe, et. al. are correct and following a conclusion from that premise. Let's pretend the ID "designer" is an alien race. We know nothing about this race - their history or motivations. Yet they appear to have involved themselves directly in Earth's biology at frequent points. They may not be omniscient, but they certainly have skills far beyond our's. They would likely be able to predict the outcome of their designs - that viruses would flourish and cause disease, bringing misery and death to other life forms. We do lab experiments, but we would consider experiments on human creatures unethical (or evil). ID suggests the possibility of evil on a grand scale.mikev6
November 14, 2009
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Well, mikev6, it seems You want to condemn God for evil "if there is a God that is" and then use the "problem of evil" as a "scientific" argument against ID,,, Yet the argument in itself is a religious argument thus if you won't even read the defense of that position which is detailed and concise, How can you truthfully maintain you are being fair in your criticism as such? i.e. you cannot use what is clearly a theological argument to argue against the stunning level of design in nature,,,It is as if you are saying you would have done it differently when you, nor anyone else can even find out how life started.bornagain77
November 14, 2009
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Frost122585/bornagain77: Let me explain more fully. The need to reconcile a benevolent God with the obvious evil around us is your problem, not mine. I don't believe in a benevolent God. My "problem of evil" is simply that there's always too much of it, but I know where it springs from - the thoughts and actions of individuals or groups of humans. Also, my understanding is that ID does not name the designer, so calling that entity "God" is a little premature. (If I've missed an announcement, somebody can provide a reference.) You have no idea if the designer is benevolent or not. (Could be Satan, if you believe in such an entity.) However, if we postulate that evolution required a designer to be involved at multiple points for the process to work, then part of that design resulted in the Black Death, HIV, and cancer, plus numerous other ills. To me, this implies a potential level of evil that transcends anything human society has produced.mikev6
November 14, 2009
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mikev6, Your observation of "natural evil", and the objections it raises for a "perfect God" falls under the domain of Theodicy of which volumes have been written, the latest of which comes from our very own Dr. Dembski. Here are a couple of resources that may help you deal with the "problem of evil". Here is an Excerpt of Dr. Dembski's new book on theodicy: The End of Christianity: Finding a Good God in an Evil World. http://www.designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf Site to purchase "The End": The End of Christianity: Finding a Good God in an Evil World (Hardcover) http://www.amazon.com/End-Christianity-Finding-Good-World/dp/0805427430 Refuting The Myth Of "Bad Design" vs. Intelligent Design - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC2Fh8De2QE The Myth of Vestigial Organs and Bad Design: Why Darwinism Is False http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/the_myth_of_vestigial_organs_a.html Does God Exist? Does Evil Negate God? - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1JbHRgNowUbornagain77
November 14, 2009
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Allen wrote, "There are currently 22 comments in this thread. Of those, three (#7, 13, and 17, or 13.6%) are clearly ad hominem attacks with no attempt at rational argument. All three were posted by frost122585, who has in other threads shown a decided tendency to attack, belittle, insult, and ridicule commentators with whom s/he diasagrees, rather than defending his/her own position with supporting evidence or attack that of his/her opponents with contravailing evidence." This should show everyone here at UD how insecure Allen is with his very own positions. First of all #13 was not even my post... so he cant even get his facts straight to begin with. Secondly and even worse, none of my posts AT ALL use any adhominem attacks. The closest I come is useing the word insine in this quote "and to think that Human beings could learn anything about morality from lowly apes is also insane and just an attempt to denigrate the moral potential and capacity of man to the level of animals that are totally helpless in the presence of real human beings." And i completely maintain that human beings are totally above apes and that we have nothing to learn about morality form them and that the idea that we could have something to learn from these animals is just as ludicrous as these animals don't do anything that human beings already don't know about. That is whatever they may do that is loosely moral that say human beings don't maybe do enough of in general- human beings already know about! There is nothing they do which will amount to a moral revelation. So to say human beings can learn from the behavior zoo animals I find nuts and personally offensive as a member of the human race. I dont say someon's view point or argument is invalid because they are a liar, or are stupid or just because they are a Darwinist. I make my arguments against Darwinism perfectly clear- I dont just call them a name which is what an ad hominem is- I make an argument. Which proves that Allen does not know what the term ad hominem means- or he simply used it in an attempt to slander me which in reality means his post was the only one that was an ad hominem. That is he argued against my arguemtns by calling me just an arguer of ad hominems. Which obviously totally fails to make any argument whatsoever. And so I don't blame him for not wanting to respond to my posts if that is the best he can do. That is if they best he can do is just characterize them with the wrong facts and choose to ignore them.Frost122585
November 14, 2009
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Mike I don't fallow what you are arguing at all. God allows evil as a test or punishment. It is still evil. And Darwinism does not account or lead to every evil in the world. I dont know where you are getting this from. Most evil is the result fo people with "bad will"- and since I believe in original sin I think all men have bad will- the only difference is that those who fallow Christ can be in a state of grace. But this has nothing to do with ID. What we have said about Darwinism is that it rules out a teleological element in design in nature all together. It claims to give you design without a designer- or at least the designer is merely a purposeless process or chance and redundant impersonal laws. The bottom line is that is kind of a mindset if taken to it's logical moral conclusion leads people to nothing but a relativist view of morality- a morality they can choose to be however they want- and so all people of bad will under this moral system will more likely carry out their bad will- as opposed to those who strive for an objective and absolute grace that makes the difference between heaven and hell. But none of these moral issue have to do with ID. As I have stated before I know an atheist who accepts ID as a theory but thinks the intelligence is just in nature. ID is does not result in necessary moral claims. But of course it does imply some higher intelligence. It is the the choice of the individual to characterize what they think the intelligence most likly is. Some people look at the evil in the world and conclude the intelligence, if personal, is evil. Others, myself included, think it is good- but the evil results from a spiritual test or punishment- or the results of people with bad will.Frost122585
November 14, 2009
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Frost:
but since his creation is perfect and he kows all things- then I would say that bad things like HIV result for some reasons perhaps from evil actions of man.
According to you and Barry, Darwin is responsible for every evil in society from mass killings to my flat tire. Yet your designer willfully created HIV and the suffering it causes, and this is an example of an "objective system of morality"? So when we teach this to children, the moral guidance is "it's OK to cause harm or misery to other humans so long as you have a good purpose"? I will remember that the next time I'm late for an appointment and I could get there faster if I knocked over a few pedestrians on the way.mikev6
November 14, 2009
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Nak writes, "Mr Frost122585, A question – do you extend the idea of morality to animals and plants, bacteria and viruses? Is an ichneumon wasp immoral? A cuckoo bird? P. falciparum? HIV?" Well I can honestly say that I do not kow exactly how say God extends morality- but since his creation is perfect and he kows all things- then I would say that bad things like HIV result for some reasons perhaps from evil actions of man. God allows fan to fall- as part of his design. And these moral issues are some of the eternal mysteries. I don't claim to conflate theology with sceince- and as a man who tries to maintain humility I do not claim to know everything about how reality works,. nor exactly everything that God thinks. I am not avoiding this question of universal morality- I am simply stating the truth that I as a mere mortal cannot read of of Gods thoughts and intentions. And I have and hold these same questions personally. SO the questions are good ones. Then Sever writes, "…God can do everything except design survivable species? Not very intelligent design it would appear. Evolution, on the other hand is expected to be a messy and wasteful process." Well first off you need to get a better understanding of what ID is- which it is completely compatible with evolution and the extinctions and evils that come with it. We as IDists have to deal with the argument from evil or the dis-teleology argument all the time. Each case in nature is an individual case and has to be addressed as such- but we know from out own human design strategies that designs do not have to be ideal or perfect to be intelligently designed. Also we know from the design of writing books like novels that often the design is purposely filled with problems because that is what gives the story it's significance. As far as theology is concerned this might be viewed as God being more interested in producing souls than perfect machines. Nonetheless ID does have to deal with the concept of intentional design or aboriginal design- and when cases are looked at specifically ID does this will. For example vestigial organs, junk DNA and certain design pattens in human beings were once thought to be terrible flawed or worthless but have later been revealed to be optimal in other respects. For one example Stephen Meyer explains why ID is o the cutting edge of genetic science as more information showing that junk DNA functions as a necessary "operating system" from the coded DNA. And there are lots of other examples.Frost122585
November 14, 2009
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ellijacket @ 49
But the idea that the strong rule the weak cannot be outgrown. It is inherent in the theory. That’s the driving force in the morality that evolution teaches – if you are strong you rule the weak.
One more time. The theory of evolution describes the way things are and tries to explain why they are that way. It says nothing about the way they should be. Yes, some people have argued that evolution implies certain moral rules. But those who do so are committing the is/ought or naturalistic fallacy. There is no logical way to get from the way things are to the way we think they should be. They are two different things. In other animal species we may see groups being led by a male, for example, who is the strongest and most dominant. Maybe that happens because, over time, it has proven to be a successful survival strategy. It may even work in some ways for us. But it doesn't mean that, in our societies, only the strong should get all the rights and privileges while the weaker should be oppressed, exploited or left to die. Also, If one man kills another without just cause in our society, we judge it to be an immoral act and a crime for which the offender can and should be punished. However, if the same victim is killed by a lion or a boulder falling on him or from being struck by lightning, we do not take the cat or the rock or the lightning bolt to court and have them charged with murder, do we? Moral codes are rules which apply to human beings and serve to regulate the way we behave towards each other and, some would argue, towards other living things. The only place moral codes exist is in the minds of intelligent agents like ourselves. They have no existence beyond that and are not, in that sense, objective. That is as true of any divine or revealed morality as any other. If such a being exists, they come from the mind of God and are as subjective as any that we work out.Seversky
November 14, 2009
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Seversky and Frost, Actually the 99% figure for extinct species is just another blatant misrepresentation by evolutionists of the what we actually find of the fossil record. Typically 40-80% of living species are represented in the fossil record! The 3:00 minute mark of this following video goes into the actual percentages of living compared to extinct. The Fossil Record - Dr. Arthur Jones http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVQeeY-Val0bornagain77
November 14, 2009
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Phinehas @ 39
An omnipotent God, by definition, can do anything.
Frost122585 @ 51
Meaning since 99% of all species are extinct...
...God can do everything except design survivable species? Not very intelligent design it would appear. Evolution, on the other hand is expected to be a messy and wasteful process.Seversky
November 14, 2009
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Mr Frost122585, A question - do you extend the idea of morality to animals and plants, bacteria and viruses? Is an ichneumon wasp immoral? A cuckoo bird? P. falciparum? HIV?Nakashima
November 14, 2009
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Mr Phineas, I said, we are each responsible for our actions, and you asked, to whom? To each other is the simplest and most direct answer.Nakashima
November 14, 2009
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That is right Elli, And furthermore- there is nothing in evolutionary morality to check and balance our evolved notions of what is moral. Meaning since 99% of all species are extinct evolution sure gets it wrong a lot doesn't it? Religion like Christianity at least gives the promise of getting it right in the first place. ANd I am sure there are some atheists out there who would love to debate theology- or the comparative morality of various religious doctrines. But this is not the place for that. But it is the place to point out that Darwinian evolution by it's own definition (the random variable part) has no guiding moral compass.Frost122585
November 13, 2009
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I didn’t mean Darwin said mass murder. Didn’t he consider himself and us fair-skinned folks to be higher? If so, that means it’s ok to treat lesser people in lesser ways.
How does one follow from the other? Even if he did consider "fair-skinned folk to be higher" in no way does it necessarily follow that "its ok to treat lesser people in lesser ways".
An omniscient God doesn’t have a subjective opinion. By definition, He knows all. Knowing all, He certainly knows a particular thing.
What if I disagree with him? For instance, what if he knows that being gay is wrong and I disagree with him? You may say that he created this world, he makes the rules. But I still disagree with him so either I'm wrong by definition, in which case I will dispute your definition of wrong, or we are back where we started and your point is incoherent.Winston Macchi
November 13, 2009
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And even if that were possible, so what? We’ve out-grown a lot of old ideas: the idea of some races being “higher” isn’t a part of evolutionary theory. Indeed, the idea that there are human races isn’t accepted.
But the idea that the strong rule the weak cannot be outgrown. It is inherent in the theory. That's the driving force in the morality that evolution teaches - if you are strong you rule the weak. That is constantly taught by Darwin himself and his followers. The only time they don't is when they are discussing humans...then they tone it down because it sounds cruel.ellijacket
November 13, 2009
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An omnipotent God, by definition, can do anything that can be done by an ompnipotent God.
No, that really doesn't help.
Does that really have any effect on the argument that man can Know a thing that God reveals to him? Or that such Knowledge can rise above subjective opinion?
It only has an effect if your conclusions logically follow from your premises, for if your premises are false ... Frankly, I don't see how your argument at all depends upon God's omnipotence (or lack thereof). Would it make any difference to your argment if God were not omnipotent, or, more to the point, were not omnipotent in the way you imagine God to be?Mung
November 13, 2009
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I don't see any replies to my posts at 13 and 22. Maybe they were late coming through.RobertC
November 13, 2009
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Mung:
Sigh.
Eloquent, but not very informative. :) I'm left to guess at your meaning. Would you feel more comfortable if I added the caveat, "...that can be done" to my statement? Does that really have any effect on the argument that man can Know a thing that God reveals to him? Or that such Knowledge can rise above subjective opinion?Phinehas
November 13, 2009
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When the aspiring ape ceases to think himself a fallen angel, perhaps he will inevitably resign himself to being an ape, and then become contented with his lot, and ultimately even rejoice that the universe demands little more from him than an ape's contentment. - David Bentley Hart
Mung
November 13, 2009
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An omnipotent God, by definition, can do anything.
Sigh.Mung
November 13, 2009
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Moral considerations should be kept out of the laboratory, no matter how much we may dislike the consequences.
I am not sure I follow this line of reasoning. I am fairly certain that we find certain scientific experiments morally repugnant. You're saying we should not permit this repugnance to influence the things scientists are allowed to do? Bring back Nazi science? Perform radiation testing on humans without their consent, etc? I think that what you are forgetting is that scientist are human just like the rest of us, and they don't get a pass on morality just because they are serving "science."Mung
November 13, 2009
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Did he think that he was of a higher race because of evolution? How does one derive that from evolutionary theory? How did Darwin derive that? And even if that were possible, so what? We've out-grown a lot of old ideas: the idea of some races being "higher" isn't a part of evolutionary theory. Indeed, the idea that there are human races isn't accepted.Heinrich
November 13, 2009
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Fortunately, we’ve out-grown those sentiments (well, most of us have). And I don’t think they ever related to evolutionary theory, so isn’t relevant.
They do relate to evolutionary theory. If Darwin believed he was of a higher race of man because of evolution how is it not related to evolutionary theory?ellijacket
November 13, 2009
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First paragrap above should read: Indeed, from a certain perspective, this is sufficient to refute any claim made by man. And when we start with man, it seems that this is where we always end up.Phinehas
November 13, 2009
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