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Is a Modern Myth of the Metals the Answer?

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In the post below Andrew Sibley links to an extraordinary article in The Times about the link between Darwinism and the recent spate of school shootings, and in the comments Leviathan steps up to give us the obligatory “this doesn’t disprove Darwinism” response. 

Leviathan, you are missing the point.  I read the article and there is not one word in it that attacks Darwinism per se.  For all you or I know the author could be a Darwinian fundamentalist.  I take it that the point of the article is that some school shooters are influenced by Darwinian theory.  That is undeniable. 

Actually, I take that back.  I am sure there are Darwinian fundamentalists out there who would deny that any school shooter has ever been influenced by Darwinism, but that just goes to show that Darwinian fundamentalists will deny propositions they know to be true.  I should say that the proposition cannot be denied in good faith. 

The author obviously wants his readers to consider not the validity of the theory itself but the implications the theory has for ethics.  When we teach our children that their existence is an ultimately meaningless accident and that morals are arbitrary byproducts of random genetic fluctuations and mechanical necessity, should we be surprised that they place a lower value on human life than someone who is taught that all humans have inherent dignity and worth because they are made in the image of God?

What to do?  What to do?  In considering this question, I am reminded of Plato’s “noble lie.”  In The Republic Plato proposed a special class of guardians trained from infancy to rule over the other classes.  But how do we persuade the guardians to rule for the common good instead of using their power to advance their personal ambitions?  Plato comes up with the “noble lie,” specifically the myth of the metals.  The answer, Plato says, is to make the guardians believe the gods have mixed a particular type of metal with the souls of the members of the different classes of society.  While common people have bronze or iron mixed with their soul, the guardians have gold mixed with theirs.  And here is the kicker:  The guardians are to be taught that they must never acquire wealth for themselves, because the gods frown at mixing earthly gold with spiritual gold.  Talk about chasing your tail.  Plato proposes a system in which the city spends years training the guardians in all the knowledge and wisdom they have, all the while making sure that at the end of the process they are still dumb enough to believe the myth of the metals. 

There are three and only three options. 

1.  We can continue to fill our children’s heads with standard Darwinian theory (which Dennett rightly calls “universal acid”), understanding that at least some of them are going to put two and two together and realize that the acid has eaten through all ethical principles — and act accordingly.

2.  We can try to come up with a secular noble lie.  “OK kids.  You might have noticed that one of the implications of what I just taught you is that your lives are ultimately meaningless and all morals are arbitrary, but you must never act as if that is true because [fill in the noble lie of your choice, such as “morality is firmly grounded on societal norms or our ability to empathize with others”].

3.  We can teach our children the truth – that the universe reveals a wondrous ordered complexity that can only be accounted for by the existence of a super-intelligence acting purposefully.  And one of the implications of that conclusion is that God exists, and, reasoning further, He has established an objective system of morality that binds us all, and therefore the moral imperatives you feel so strongly are not just an epiphenomenon of the electro-chemical states of your brain.

Looking around I see that for the last several decades we have tried options one and two, and we have gotten what we have gotten.  I vote to give option three a run.

Comments
jitsak:
Maybe you’re right, maybe not. It is your subjective opinion. That is sufficient to refute your claim that the bible offers an objective standard.
Indeed, this is sufficient to refute any claim made by man. And when we start with man, it seems that this is where we always end up. But what happens when you start with an omniscient, omnipotent God? Given this, is it possible for a man to Know a thing objectively? An omniscient God doesn't have a subjective opinion. By definition, He knows all. Knowing all, He certainly knows a particular thing. An omnipotent God, by definition, can do anything. He is therfore capable of revealing a particular thing that He knows to a man. He is even capable of ensuring that the man, though fallible, rightly understands what is being revealed. If there is no God, then it seems impossible that man should ever really Know anything. In the end, it is all subjective opinion, grounded in random processes with no real interest in Truth. On the other hand, if there is an omniscient, omnipotent God, then it seems entirely possible that a man should Know whatever God chooses to reveal to Him, including the fact that there is an omniscient, omnipotent God.Phinehas
November 13, 2009
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Fortunately, we've out-grown those sentiments (well, most of us have). And I don't think they ever related to evolutionary theory, so isn't relevant.Heinrich
November 13, 2009
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Nakashima:
No matter what strong influences our genetic and developmental heritage may give us, we each are responsible for our thoughts and the actions we take based on them.
Responsible to whom?Phinehas
November 13, 2009
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Mass murder and genocide? Not that I’m aware. Of course, he might have been quote-mined to be interpreted that way.
I didn't mean Darwin said mass murder. Didn't he consider himself and us fair-skinned folks to be higher? If so, that means it's ok to treat lesser people in lesser ways. You don't have to quote-mine to find out Darwin thought Europeans were a higher race. Those type comments have consequences.ellijacket
November 13, 2009
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Seems to me they considered themselves a ‘higher’ form of person and thus had the right to do what they wanted to further ‘natural selection’.
Precisely. That is something Darwinian theory says is unnecessary: the unfit are weeded out anyway. So if they feel the need to do this, they aren't following Darwinian theory. Actually, there are some mathematical results that culling the "unfit" doesn't work: the frequency of unfit alleles equals the mutation rate, regardless of the size of the negative selection pressure.
Didn’t Darwin propose the same ideas about the dark-skinned peoples?
Mass murder and genocide? Not that I'm aware. Of course, he might have been quote-mined to be interpreted that way.Heinrich
November 13, 2009
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But they do that for their own advantage
Seems to me they considered themselves a 'higher' form of person and thus had the right to do what they wanted to further 'natural selection'. Didn't Darwin propose the same ideas about the dark-skinned peoples?ellijacket
November 13, 2009
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That’s not true. In nature the strong prey on the weak. They don’t stand by and do nothing.
But they do that for their own advantage, e.g. for food. Do we see that sort of calculation here? I've never seen any evidence for it, but perhaps Barry might be able to present some.Heinrich
November 13, 2009
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I think the fact that there is not one consistent, worldwide “objective system” of morality is very strong evidence that if God does have such a system, He isn’t letting us in on the secret.
How so? I have a consistent system in my home but my children don't always follow it. Some children grow up and never follow anything their parents did. The same with us and God. If God made us all follow it to show who He was then we'd have no free will. If he gives us free will and let's us choose then some will not choose. That's no argument against God's will. That's an argument in favor of free will.ellijacket
November 13, 2009
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No matter what strong influences our genetic and developmental heritage may give us, we each are responsible for our thoughts and the actions we take based on them.
How can I be responsible for the quantum fluctuations taking place in my brain?ellijacket
November 13, 2009
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In fact, Darwinian theory would suggest that if those deemed unfit genuinely were unfit, there would be no need to do anything. Just let Nature takes its course.
That's not true. In nature the strong prey on the weak. They don't stand by and do nothing.ellijacket
November 13, 2009
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allanius at 24:
Only the Bible offers an objective, absolute standard of morality, based upon the value of life. God is said to have formed man from the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath of life; by this account, life becomes a sacred value—the “light of men.”
Maybe you're right, maybe not. It is your subjective opinion. That is sufficient to refute your claim that the bible offers an objective standard.
No such objective standard exists in Darwinism. Darwinists can agree, of course, to cleave to certain commendable moral propositions, such as “thou shalt not kill,” but this imperative cannot be derived objectively from their origins story. It becomes, as Barry notes, a “noble lie.”
It would be a lie if the person would be knowingly deceptive. Are you saying that atheists who propose to stick to the rule "thou shalt not kill" are liars?jitsak
November 13, 2009
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I take it that the point of the article is that some school shooters are influenced by Darwinian theory.
Darwinian theory or Darwinian slogans? I'm not convinced that actual Darwinian theory was an influence, there seems to be little beyond using "survival of the fittest" as an excuse to kill people deemed inferior. In fact, Darwinian theory would suggest that if those deemed unfit genuinely were unfit, there would be no need to do anything. Just let Nature takes its course.Heinrich
November 13, 2009
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Only the Bible offers an objective, absolute standard of morality, based upon the value of life. God is said to have formed man from the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath of life; by this account, life becomes a sacred value—the “light of men.” All of the law and the prophets are based upon this value, summed up in the life-sparing exhortation to “love your neighbor as yourself.” No such objective standard exists in Darwinism. Darwinists can agree, of course, to cleave to certain commendable moral propositions, such as “thou shalt not kill,” but this imperative cannot be derived objectively from their origins story. It becomes, as Barry notes, a “noble lie.” Thus it is quite possible for Darwinists to deceive themselves into thinking that ignoble lies are in fact noble. The proponents of the “Aryan” race thought they were saving it from degradation and destruction, according to their understanding of the survival of the fittest. Nothing in Darwinism prevented them from sincerely believing that this was a noble goal.allanius
November 13, 2009
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This evolutionary morality thing is crazy. What about the fact that better killers have greater selectivity in many cases? What about how better thieves in business and politics have better selectivity? If these people are more successful in money and power and living on then that gives them a greater chance of survival and reproduction obviously. What about how people who have indiscriminate sex and produce the most children out of wed lock have greater selectivity? Will this lead to a more moral and ideal society? Evolution does not lead to morality because simply "existing" or living on, is not ideally moral. Evolution does not select for those qualities which are ideal but do not confer survival benefit. That is evolution is not virtuous. It is merely the quantity of life that gets passed on. All kinds of nasty things like poisonous spiders and snakes live on- In other words there are certain traits we may like to see dissipate all together- but if, evolutionarily, they are coupled to one of the above examples- or other beneficial behavioral traits- then they will be selected for. Anyone who thinks random mutations and redundant laws can produce ideal morality is lying to themselves. The world is proof.Frost122585
November 13, 2009
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There are currently 22 comments in this thread. Of those, three (#7, 13, and 17, or 13.6%) are clearly ad hominem attacks with no attempt at rational argument. All three were posted by frost122585, who has in other threads shown a decided tendency to attack, belittle, insult, and ridicule commentators with whom s/he diasagrees, rather than defending his/her own position with supporting evidence or attack that of his/her opponents with contravailing evidence. Ergo, I will no longer respond to frost122585's comments, and recommend that those commentators at this website who value reasoned arguments supported by objective evidence do the same.Allen_MacNeill
November 13, 2009
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avocationist:
Note that many of these killers who want to weed out the unfit end up committing suicide. So maybe it’s not really about weeding out the unfit. Darwinism helps them do it, but the mental illness and suicidal tendency is the underlying cause.
Nice try. I seem to recall a similar discussion back when there was that church shooting out in Colorado a couple years back. It was pretty clear the killer was severely mentally ill, but the discussion revolved around trying to find some link to the writings of Richard Dawkins. Let's face it, there is a culture war going on here and talking about the affects of Xanax just isn't a compelling weapon in the battle.hummus man
November 13, 2009
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Mr Arrington, Perhaps you would squeeze this modest proposal in under option 1. I think we should teach more evolutioin, not less. Specifically, teach the evo-psych notion that human universals, such a moral concept, have been positively selcted for. Morals are good for us, just like we need sunshine to make vitamin D. We should also teach the edge of evolution - it does not dictate our thoughts. No matter what strong influences our genetic and developmental heritage may give us, we each are responsible for our thoughts and the actions we take based on them.Nakashima
November 13, 2009
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How are the persons committing murder-suicide acting in a Darwinian manner? Logically, one would think that a pretty poor was to pass on one's genes. It isn't survival of the deadest.RobertC
November 12, 2009
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The article certainly had some sobering evidence, but I think taking a look at the role of psychotropic medications should be the first step. If these medications in the combination of an unstable personality, lend a sense of unreality and numbness and an increase in desire to kill, then the human mind will naturally look for an inspiring idea with which to justify it. Note that many of these killers who want to weed out the unfit end up committing suicide. So maybe it's not really about weeding out the unfit. Darwinism helps them do it, but the mental illness and suicidal tendency is the underlying cause. Yet these things are a modern scourge, just when psych meds are becoming overprescribed.avocationist
November 12, 2009
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Leviathan -- What I am not prepared to do, however, is stoop to underhanded tactics of attacking the science of Darwinism indirectly via a moral argument. Here's something to consider -- what if Darwinism is not longer a science? What if those who promote it are no longer interested in the best explanation as to the workings of nature but merely want to maintain a dogma to justify their life choices? Wouldn't it then be appropriate to attack Darwinism as a moral argument?tribune7
November 12, 2009
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groovamos:
Books like this are powerful indicators to me that Christ means what he says when saying “All these things I do, will you do also, and more.”
Ok, so you've provided me with examples of highly moral individuals. I'm also happy to include Christ in that list. These can act as examples - but Barry's claim is that God is the only true source of an "objective morality". Are we claiming here that atheists can never be moral? What if an atheist lived his entire life unaware of the Bible yet matched by action any of the models you've noted (including Christ). Would Barry say that person was moral or not? Conversely, if a committed Christian persecutes his gay neighbor because "the Bible says so" - how is God providing an objective standard in that case? "Objective" shouldn't be open to debate, correct?mikev6
November 12, 2009
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I would like to know where all of these new names are coming from all of a sudden? It seems like a sudden barrage of weak minds have decided to attack UD.Frost122585
November 12, 2009
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The whole idea that God has "established an objective system of morality that binds us all" is one of those ideas which sound good in the abstract, but like Darwinism, fall apart when examined carefully. Where is this "objective system" written? If you say the Bible, then by whose interpretation? There are as many varieties of Biblically based morality as there are Christian (and Jewish) sects. And why, if God gave the correct "objective system" to the Christians, did He withhold it from the Muslims (or the Hindus or the Buddhists or the Taoists, etc., etc.). Why would an infinitely loving God be so cruel as to give the keys to Heaven only to one group of people and not all of them? I think the fact that there is not one consistent, worldwide "objective system" of morality is very strong evidence that if God does have such a system, He isn't letting us in on the secret. The series "Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsch gives a very compelling, logically presented case that in fact there is no absolute moral standard, based on who and what we really are, our relationship to God, and God's purpose for creating the Universe and us. I recommend it highly. In it, God says (and I paraphrase), the standard for what to do in any given situation is, "What would Love do now?"Bruce David
November 12, 2009
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mikev6 You could read "Autobiography of a Yogi" by Pramahansa Yoganenda and encounter in those pages a whole slew of Christlike figures living the holy life. You could also read "Krishnamurti: The Years of Awakening" by Mary Lutyens if you want an amazing account of a man coming into intimate knowledge of the Divine. Since some of these people attained the ultimate in knowledge, living as did Christ, use them as reference points to this universal thing you think of as morality "in all situtions", but goes way beyond morality. Books like this are powerful indicators to me that Christ means what he says when saying "All these things I do, will you do also, and more."groovamos
November 12, 2009
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Barry opines:
And one of the implications of that conclusion is that God exists, and, reasoning further, He has established an objective system of morality that binds us all...
I hear this mentioned constantly, but it does not match my observations of human behavior. It would help if Barry could provide an example or two from this "objective system of morality" that work universally in all situations.mikev6
November 12, 2009
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Jitsak thinks he can do better than than Christ.Frost122585
November 12, 2009
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Your hypothesis that Darwinism causes crime/shootings is interesting, but seems to be at odds with the data. Why is it that countries/regions that have relatively profound acceptance of Evolution have low crime rates, few cases of mass homicides, etc? Besides the tale of Columbine you weave, what is the proof here? http://scienceblogs.com/strangerfruit/2006/08/go_usa_were_2_kind_of.php http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map-world-murder-rate-red.svg We could play this all day....should I post a link to every story where God told someone to do some harm?RobertC
November 12, 2009
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Jitsak states: "We need to rethink our moral system in a very different world compared to the world the scribes of the Bible lived in." And just what higher moral standard than to love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and to love your fellow man as yourself, do you think modern "enlightened thinkers" should aspire us unenlightened ones to??? To love material processes with all our heart mind and soul? To help our fellow man and long as helping him helps us in our long term survival??? I'm curious, just what foundation are you going lay this "new" moral framework on???bornagain77
November 12, 2009
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Frost,
Jit, no there is no hope of an evolutionary theory of morality because evolution’s only moral is that the most fit survive. And I personally think that people like yourself hide behind this absurd hope just to avoid to dismiss real religion- like biblical scripture.
You overlook the possibility that morals may help groups to survive. Biblical scripture is just a primitive attempt to codify a combination of our innate moral tendencies and a culturally evolved moral agenda. I understand where that comes from, and I think it contains many valuable lessons (in addition to much moral hazard), but I think it's outdated. We need to rethink our moral system in a very different world compared to the world the scribes of the Bible lived in.jitsak
November 12, 2009
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an attempt to denigrate the moral potential and capacity of man to the level of animals that are totally helpless in the presence of real human beings.
Have you ever seen a human being fight a 400-pound silverback gorilla? Also, are you advocating the idea that humans are not part of the animal kingdom?Leviathan
November 12, 2009
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