Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Is Evolution Repeatable?

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One of our commenters here, trrll, made the oft-cited claim that evolution is unrepeatable. I asked what evidence there is of this and he made some unsubstantiated claims. Because of the frequency of such claims here I asked that he back them up before he comments here again. As of now the result of my request is the sound of crickets chirping. To be fair, perhaps trrll didn’t see my last response. If not he’s sure to see this.

I posted a paper on the sidebar back in January written by Jean Staune titled Non Darwinian Evolution. Professor Dembski had originally linked to it as an article but I thought it important enough to make a permanent link to it on the sidebar. It’s a survey of evolutionary scientists in Europe who reject both creationism and the Darwinian mechanism of chance & necessity. Among those non-creationist dissenters from Darwinism are several who say that evolution is repeatable i.e. that if it happened again here or elsewhere it would follow the same course. An inescapable conclusion of Darwinian evolution is that evolution would NOT repeat itself due to being driven by random mutation and there being so many possible paths that a random walk could take.
A small excerpt:

Repeatabilty of Evolution

One of the fundamental predictions which rises from Darwinian theory is the impossibility that evolution can reach the same goal twice. Authors as different as Richard Dawkins or Stephen Jay Gould agree on this point: the role of contingency is central in the evolutionary process (the ‘bullet’ is always shot randomly) and there are so many possible targets (”the range of possibilities is almost infinite”), that it is unthinkable that the process of evolution, if it really rests on the Darwinians mechanisms, can produce the same result twice. In theory, if one received an image coming from another planet, the simple presence of a cat or a dog would be enough to disprove Darwinism. However for the three authors whom we gather in this school, evolution must more or less follow identical paths in different places.

I encourage everyone to read the paper. One might also be well served to compare and contrast these non-Darwinian schools of thought with Doctor Davison’s Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis, also on the sidebar. I think you’ll find that Davison’s conclusions are largely compatible with some of the European thinking (although I might wrong on that and I’d like Doctor Davison to chime in on that score if he would take the time to review Staune’s paper).

I’ll close this with another small excerpt from Staune:

What about “ Intelligent Design ”?

If Intelligent Design theorists recognize that all living beings have a common ancestor, Intelligent Design is nothing more than a particular school of thought of non-Darwinian evolutionist biology of the type: “ non random macro mutation ” similar to Schutzenberger, Denton and Chauvin’s ideas. But more extreme than them. Non-Darwinians of this sort say that we need to include something able to coordinate or channel the macro mutations (like meteorologists need a more global concept on Pluto which obliges them revisit all their world views but do not include the direct intervention of a designer) to really understand how evolution works. These scientists will not claim that this is evidence of a Creator even if it is fully compatible with such a concept.

If Intelligent Design rejects the idea of common ancestry, or even if, Intelligent Design is “ agnostic ” concerning this idea, it would be a catastrophe for any sort of non-Darwinian way of thinking. Recent history fully demonstrates that if you deny the existence of common ancestry, the concluding result of your action will be the reenforcement of Darwinism. The existence of common ancestry is a thing of the past and not of the present. Evolution cannot be established as much as for example, the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun but evolution is as well established as possible for a phenomenon that belongs to the past. To deny it is to re-enforce Darwinism and to discredit the non-Darwinian school of thought.

Comments
StephenA remarks:
I’m afraid I don’t buy that common decent (darwinian or otherwise) predicts nested higherarchies. It is compatable with them, but they do not necessarily follow. For example, if there were not clear boundaries between species, orders, phyla, and so on, if the different types of existing animals all kind of merged into one another (like ring species, but on a larger scale) we would no longer have nested higherachies, but it would not falsify common descent.
Stephen, Interesting point. True, if reproductive isolation didn't exist, then life would not appear to be a nested hierarchy. So you are correct to say that common descent by itself does not predict the appearance of a nested hierarchy. Another factor is the rate of evolutionary change. If the rate of beneficial mutations were rapid relative to the lifespan of an organism, the phylogenetic information would be "washed out" and we would not be able to construct a nested hierarchy (I discussed this earlier in the thread). So my assertion should be interpreted more fully as "given conditions on Earth as we know it, common descent predicts that life should appear as a nested hierarchy." The same cannot be said of ID.
You might be interested in checking out Ashby Camp’s Critque of 29 Evidences for Macroevolution.
We might as well mention the whole series, for the benefit of any readers who aren't aware of them: Douglas Theobald's "29 Evidences for Macroevolution": http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ Ashby Camp's critique of "29 Evidences": http://www.trueorigin.org/theobald1a.asp Theobald's response to Camp's critique: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/camp.html
But seriously, would you care to tell me what these independant lines of evidence are?
Glad to. The most compelling evidence for common descent, to me, is the amazingly strong statistical congruence between phylogenetic trees derived from different characters, both morphological and molecular. If common design, and not common descent, were true, you would not expect this congruence. The designer would have no reason to constrain himself to a pattern matching that of a single common phylogenetic tree, unless (for some unfathomable reason) he wanted to cover his tracks and create the appearance of common descent. Theobald discusses the evidence here in "Consilience of independent phylogenies": http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#independent_convergence Here he compares the stunning congruence of independent phylogenetic trees to the relative imprecision of the measured value of various physical constants:
Speaking quantitatively, independent morphological and molecular measurements such as these have determined the standard phylogenetic tree, as shown in Figure 1, to better than 38 decimal places...To put the significance of this incredible confirmation in perspective, consider the modern theory of gravity. Both Newton's Theory of Universal Gravitation and Einstein's General Theory of Relativity rely upon a fundamental physical constant, G, the gravitational constant. If these theories of gravity are correct, independent methods should determine similar values for G. However, to date, very precise independent measurements of the gravitational constant G disagree by nearly 1% (Kestenbaum 1998; Quinn 2000)... Nevertheless, a precision of just under 1% is still pretty good; it is not enough, at this point, to cause us to cast much doubt upon the validity and usefulness of modern theories of gravity. However, if tests of the theory of common descent performed that poorly, different phylogenetic trees, as shown in Figure 1, would have to differ by 18 of the 30 branches! In their quest for scientific perfection, some biologists are rightly rankled at the obvious discrepancies between some phylogenetic trees (Gura 2000; Patterson et al. 1993; Maley and Marshall 1998). However, as illustrated in Figure 1, the standard phylogenetic tree is known to 38 decimal places, which is a much greater precision than that of even the most well-determined physical constants. For comparison, the charge of the electron is known to only seven decimal places, the Planck constant is known to only eight decimal places, the mass of the neutron, proton, and electron are all known to only nine decimal places, and the universal gravitational constant has been determined to only three decimal places.
Karl Pfluger
September 23, 2006
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John Davison writes:
[Karl] lectures us demanding we accept a monophyletic evolution when there is not a shred of evidence that it must be so and all kinds of reasons to question it.
I'm not demanding that you accept anything, John. Believe what you like. But don't expect me to soft-pedal the evidence on account of your personal skepticism. John Davison:
Science deals with certainties which have only to be disclosed.
Two sentences later, John quotes Bertrand Russell:
Ascertainable truth is partial, piecemeal, uncertain and difficult.
Karl Pfluger
September 23, 2006
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Karl Pfluger:
You seem to be misunderstanding nested hierarchies again. One nested sub-hierarchy connects to another non-overlapping sub-hierarchy via at most a single point, not various points as you claim.
I suppose it's impossible for you to misunderstand something, right? Well, you don't seem to understand what you're saying. You have no basis for saying, "one nested sub-hierarchy connects to another non-overlapping sub-hierarchy via at most a single point, not various points as you claim." How do you know that? How do you know if it was one point, or ten points, or a hundred points. You don't know, and no one else knows, because the fossil record is silent about these connections. You seem to not understand the words "missing links". And this point, what is it? Is it some mathematical entity, some abstract notion of space? What is it? Well, you know very well that it has to represent some "species"--of which the fossil record is silent. Just because you don't like the implications are of the "missing links", the implications are nonetheless there. I'm getting a little tired of you saying that I'm the one who misunderstands this and that. Maybe it's you.
Are we 100.0% certain? No. There’s a tiny chance that they might have been left by a clever hoaxer trying to create the illusion of a past accident. Similarly, we can never be 100.0% certain about the tree of life, because it might be an illusion (whether intentional or not) brought about by the Creator.
Karl, you're a know-it-all, who, like all know-it-alls doesn't know as much as they think. There's plenty of ways for an accident to happen; there's only one way--at least until scientists of our age began their mischief--for a human to be born. This is an inapt example. And I don't care to discuss this with you any longer since you've demonstrated an inability for true critical thinking.PaV
September 23, 2006
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"Common descent predicts a nested hierarchy. Common design does not. " I'm afraid I don't buy that common decent (darwinian or otherwise) predicts nested higherarchies. It is compatable with them, but they do not necessarily follow. For example, if there were not clear boundaries between species, orders, phyla, and so on, if the different types of existing animals all kind of merged into one another (like ring species, but on a larger scale) we would no longer have nested higherachies, but it would not falsify common descent. If anything it would support it even more strongly than nested higherachies. You might be interested in checking out Ashby Camp's Critque of 29 Evidences for Macroevolution. http://www.trueorigin.org/theobald1a.asp "I have never encountered a denier of common descent who actually understood how many independent lines of evidence support it." I prefer to think of myself as more of a sceptic of common decent than a denier. :) But seriously, would you care to tell me what these independant lines of evidence are? Are they different from the 29 evidences for macroevolution? Are you talking about bare common decent, or neo-darwinian common decent?StephenA
September 23, 2006
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Karl Pfluger I am committed to no ideology. I have no respect for ideology of any sort. That is why I get banned so much. There is plenty of reason to question common descent and certainly no proof for it. There are a great many huge unexplained gaps which existed right at the very beginning, gaps for which I can't even imagine intermediate or transitional forms. Neither can anyone else. I am confident the matter will one day be resolved if the earth lasts long enough which is problematical if you ask me so don't ask. It sure won't be resolved on internet forums. It is Karl Pfluger that has the ideology. He lectures us demanding we accept a monophyletic evolution when there is not a shred of evidence that it must be so and all kinds of reasons to question it. Just because it seems to him to be the best explanation means absoloutely nothing, especially when to me it seems most unlikely if you know what I mean. I also happen not to believe that science deals in probabilities either. Science deals with certainties which have only to be disclosed. Like Einstein, I too have no respect for such philosophical notions because that is exactly what they are. "Ascertainable truth is partial, piecemeal, uncertain and difficult." Bertrand Russell but ascertainable nevertheless. "Men believe most what they least understand." Montaigne "He that I am reading seems always to have the most force." ibid "Study Nature not books." Louis Agassiz Incidentally, natural selection had absolutely nothing to do with speciation or any other aspect of creative evolution. Neither did allelic mutation nor sexual reproduction nor extensive periods of time. Those are not surmises but experimentally verified hard cold facts which remain in complete accord with the fossil record. To continue to ignore these realities, as the Darwinians continue to do, is scandalous. If the gradual accumulation of mutations had any role in evolution it would have been experimentally demonstrated years ago. It is just one more illusion generated by a mentality unable to see what some of us have always been able to see. Phylogeny, like ontogeny has never been a random matter. Ontogeny, which is all that is left is the perfect model for phylogeny. "Neither in the one nor in the other is there room for chance." Leo Berg, Nomogenesis, page 134 "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 23, 2006
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PaV asks:
Does anyone know with certainty that such a proto-Indo-European language actually existed? Or, again, as in Darwinism, is it simply a surmise?
Either it actually existed, or else the Indo-European languages were separately created with an overwhelming family resemblance. I wrote:
Even without any fossil evidence, the patterns of similarity and difference among living organisms would lead us to the conclusion of common descent.
PaV responded:
Well, I don’t think we can safely go that far. Similarities and differences demonstrate that biological life shares suggest common elements and components...
Similarities and differences do not merely suggest common elements and components. The specific pattern of similarities and differences points toward common descent, and away from common design, as the best explanation of the evidence.
You have to ask the question that if Linnaeus, the architect of taxonomy, the science that gives us the notion of “nested hierarchies”, thought that these “nested hierarchies” disproved the idea of the creation of individual species, then why didn’t he argue against that notion during his lifetime.
I suspect that Linnaeus either never thought of common descent, or did but rejected it because he knew of no plausible driving mechanism. Remember, he died a full 80 years before Darwin and Wallace published the idea of natural selection. Interestingly, Linnaeus applied his nested hierarchy scheme to minerals as well as living things. He apparently believed that the nested hierarchy was a common scheme used by the Creator throughout creation. Scientists rejected his mineral classification hierarchy because it didn't work. Nested hierarchical schemes don't work well with objects that are not the product of descent with modification, as my earlier computer example illustrates.
what we would expect to see from the kind of divergent evolution Darwins proposes are species connecting two of these “nests” at various points. But we don’t see that.
You seem to be misunderstanding nested hierarchies again. One nested sub-hierarchy connects to another non-overlapping sub-hierarchy via at most a single point, not various points as you claim.
I understand perfectly what a nested hierarchy is.
Your statement above suggests otherwise, as does the false distinction you drew earlier between "nested" and "connected" hierarchies.
...there really is a “family tree” when it comes to Genghis Khan. We don’t know that about evolution.
We do know it, in the same way that we "know" there's been an accident, involving a vehicle, when we see skid marks on the highway leading to a huge dent in the guardrail. Are we 100.0% certain? No. There's a tiny chance that they might have been left by a clever hoaxer trying to create the illusion of a past accident. Similarly, we can never be 100.0% certain about the tree of life, because it might be an illusion (whether intentional or not) brought about by the Creator. (For that matter, we can't be certain about the reality of Genghis Khan's ancestral tree, either. It's possible (although again highly unlikely) that he was created ab initio. Science deals in probabilities, not certainties. When we say something is factual, we really mean that it is so probable that we can safely neglect the alternatives. PaV to John Davison:
...from theological considerations, I don’t believe in panspermia, or anything like that...
I suspect that these same theological considerations are fueling your resistance to the idea of common descent. May I respectfully suggest letting the evidence shape your theology, rather than vice-versa? A premature commitment to a particular ideology is likely to blind one to the truth.Karl Pfluger
September 23, 2006
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Joseph wrote:
What common descent needs to explain, and so far has failed to explain, are the differences that are observed between allegedly related organisms. For example humans and chimps.
Joseph, What do you mean by "explaining the differences"? I can think of three possibilities: 1. You think that the existence of differences is evidence against common descent. But this is nonsensical, because if there were no differences between chimps and humans, we'd be the same species. 2. You don't think that common descent advocates know of a mechanism which is capable of accounting for the differences. This is also obviously wrong, because common descent does not depend on any particular mechanism. Here's a clue: John Davison, DaveScot and I vociferously disagree on the mechanism driving evolutionary change, yet the three of us agree on the truth of common descent. The evidence for common descent is so strong that it has convinced not only Darwinists, but many supporters of ID as well. 3. You believe that the nature or magnitude of the differences between humans and chimps cannot be accounted for by common descent. In that case it is up to you to cite a particular difference or set of differences and explain why common descent is insufficient to account for them. Meanwhile, check out this very recent research into what, genetically, makes us uniquely human: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-08/uoc--bgs081506.php
Or better yet the CDists are deceiving themselves as there are many people who do not think the data points to CD nor do they think the Creator made it look that way.
I have never encountered a denier of common descent who actually understood how many independent lines of evidence support it. They usually think that common descent is just one of many equally valid ways of "connecting the dots", and that only an ideological bias causes people to prefer it over the others. They are mistaken. The evidence actually favors the common descent hypothesis over the others, by a huge statistical margin. Let me say it yet again: Either common descent is true, or different categories of organisms were created with the appearance of common descent.
The similarities are easily explained by a common design...
Common descent and common design do not predict the same pattern of similarities. See my computer example earlier in this thread (Sep 21 at 3:31 am ). Common descent predicts a nested hierarchy. Common design does not.Karl Pfluger
September 23, 2006
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Is this the final version of Uncommon Descent's new format? If it is ,what ever happened to the side bar where all my papers used to be? Getting my papers restored was the primary thing I was concerned about by returning here.John A. Davison
September 23, 2006
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PaV I don't believe in panspermia either. I just threw that in to pacify those who might. I also don't think we will be colonizing any other planets either for the simple reason that we won't survive long enough to develop the necessary technology. Besides, there are no other planets that we know of that could support life anyway, at least to my knowledge. It is perfectly conceivable that we are the only planet in the universe that ever could or ever will. We are sure treating this one with contempt, a view recently endorsed by Stephen Hawking as well according to my lastest copy of Discover magazine. It is all rather depressing if you ask me so don't ask. Ernst Mach, the physicist and philosopher once suggested that the entire universe was there just so the earth could exist. I always liked that idea, but don't ask me why. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 23, 2006
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"My point is we have chimps and humans alive today so we should be able to tell what caused the differences. And until we know we shouldn’t be force-feeding that pap to our kids." There is a lot of research in genomics going on into exactly what causes the differences. Im not sure anyone is claiming that we know every single event.Chris Hyland
September 23, 2006
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John, I'm in agreement with your last two posts. I think we see things from the same perspective. However, from theological considerations, I don't believe in panspermia, or anything like that; and, in any event, we're having problems with figuring out what happened to life here, let alone anything prior.PaV
September 23, 2006
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John Davison: I have published my explanation for what we see. I will read it- yes that means I haven't yet read it. John Davison: What is your explanation for what we see? Our vision system has a lot to do with that (yuk, yuk, yuk- wiseguy eh?). I don't rule out a special creation of some number of populations and I don't rule out colonization from a dying civilization. To me either of those is a better fit in light of the data we do have. My point is we have chimps and humans alive today so we should be able to tell what caused the differences. And until we know we shouldn't be force-feeding that pap to our kids.Joseph
September 23, 2006
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To stick with the tree metaphor, the question is simply was there a tree or was it a grove or maybe a forest.?Another question was the tree(s) ever transplanted? Did the tree(s) grow from seed here or elsewhere and did any grafting take place. One thing I am certain about. The tree (s) is undergoing no new growth and many of its twigs have died. It is in bad shape! "A past evoution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 23, 2006
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Karl Pfluger:
But we can infer many of the characteristics of the common ancestor, just as linguists have been able to infer characteristics of the common “ancestor” (called proto-Indo-European) of the modern Indo-European languages.
Does anyone know with certainty that such a proto-Indo-European language actually existed? Or, again, as in Darwinism, is it simply a surmise?
Even without any fossil evidence, the patterns of similarity and difference among living organisms would lead us to the conclusion of common descent.
Well, I don't think we can safely go that far. Similarities and differences demonstrate that biological life shares suggest common elements and components; but, in the absence of a "family tree", there still remains a small measure of conjecture in any conclusion of common descent.
What we see is exactly what you’d expect to see if life is a nested hierarchy, and not what you’d expect to see if different taxa were separately created.
You have to ask the question that if Linnaeus, the architect of taxonomy, the science that gives us the notion of "nested hierarchies", thought that these "nested hierarchies" disproved the idea of the creation of individual species, then why didn't he argue against that notion during his lifetime. You have it backwards here. If the Creator created the progenitor of an entire phyla, class, and order, then you would have exactly what we see: a "nested hierarchy". Michael Denton, in fact, uses this observation as an argument against Darwinism. As I've tried, vainly apparently, to demonstrate, this is the problem of the whole idea of a "tree of life", the "missing links" are still missing; and what we would expect to see from the kind of divergent evolution Darwins proposes are species connecting two of these "nests" at various points. But we don't see that.
PaV, you’ve misunderstood the meaning of the word “nested” in this context. A nested hierarchy is simply a hierarchy of hierarchies, like a family tree.
I understand perfectly what a nested hierarchy is.
At each level of the tree, there are more hierarchies to be found, until you reach the ends of the branches. That is what is meant by a “nested hierarchy”.
Don't you remember I said that the problem comes when you go backwards from the "ends" to the larger branches. As I pointed out, they don't connect up to anything.
Obviously, the tree of life is not a literal tree with leaves and bark and photosynthesis; it’s an abstraction. But so is a family tree.
Well, I suppose, technically, "family tree" is a metaphor, or an analogy. But, here is where I think you're going wrong. We know with certainty that Genghis Khan had a father and a mother. We know with certainty that his father had a father, and his father's father likewise had a father. Thus, there really is a "family tree" when it comes to Genghis Khan. We don't know that about evolution. We know humans, and only humans, come from humans; we know that cats, and only cats, come from cats; we know that chickens,a nd only chickens, come from chickens. On the other hand, we have no idea if frogs can come from tiger sharks. Pure conjecture. So, the "tree of life" is pure conjecture; not an abstraction, while a "family tree" is simply a metaphor for describing something that is very real.
To argue that common descent is not true because the tree of life isn’t real is to get things exactly backward: you actually have to figure out whether common descent is true before you can decide whether the tree of life is real.
The point you're missing here is that the same reason for not knowing with certainty that the "tree of life" is real, is the very same reason for not being able to conlude that "common descent" is real: the "missing links". To believe in a "tree of life" is the same as believing in "common descent". But you have to "believe"; you can't know with certainty as you do when it comes to a "family tree."PaV
September 23, 2006
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joseph I have published my explanation for what we see. What is your explanation for what we see? "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 23, 2006
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to Karl Pfluger: What common descent needs to explain, and so far has failed to explain, are the differences that are observed between allegedly related organisms. For example humans and chimps. If the people promoting common descent cannot do so that would be evidence against it. Or at least should count as evidence against it. As for this nonsense: Karl: I can’t stress it enough: The evidence shows that either common descent is true, or the Creator made it look as if common descent were true. Or we are just too stupid to know what the heck really happened. IOW the real possibility is that we are deceiving ourselves. Or better yet the CDists are deceiving themselves as there are many people who do not think the data points to CD nor do they think the Creator made it look that way. Now how about explaining the differences. The similarities are easily explained by a common design, which would also fit any NH.Joseph
September 23, 2006
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The simple truth is that no one knows for certain how many times life originated or how many times, once present, it may have been front-loaed. All I am doing is keeping an open mind on these matters. I hope that is acceptable to all concerned. As for Darwin: "...having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one..." On the Origin of Species, page 490 clearly shows an open mind on the number of creations. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 23, 2006
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PaV wrote:
The problem I was pointing out in going backwards is this: the species from which the “order” radiated cannot be identified from the fossil record; the species from which the “class” radiates into “orders”, etc, cannot be identified; the species from which the “phyla” radiate (the main branches) cannot be identified, and, of course, the bifurcating trunks (the “kingdoms”) cannot be identified.
True, we can't point to a specific fossil and say definitively that it is the common ancestor of two living organisms. It might be the brother, or the cousin, or a second cousin twice removed of the actual common ancestor. But we can infer many of the characteristics of the common ancestor, just as linguists have been able to infer characteristics of the common "ancestor" (called proto-Indo-European) of the modern Indo-European languages. And having inferred the common ancestor's characteristics, we can search the fossil record for organisms which closely match those characteristics.
Now, when you talk about common descent, you are presuming that these “species” existed... These are all presumed–there is no fossil evidence for them–to have existed.
Even without any fossil evidence, the patterns of similarity and difference among living organisms would lead us to the conclusion of common descent. What we see is exactly what you'd expect to see if life is a nested hierarchy, and not what you'd expect to see if different taxa were separately created. I can't stress it enough: The evidence shows that either common descent is true, or the Creator made it look as if common descent were true.
And “nested hierarchies” point out that these “species” have not been identified, for had they been identified, then the “hierarchies” wouldn’t be “nested”, they would be “connected” by these “species”.
PaV, you've misunderstood the meaning of the word "nested" in this context. A nested hierarchy is simply a hierarchy of hierarchies, like a family tree. Genghis Khan's descendants form a hierarchy. It includes his children, his children's children, and so on until you reach his living descendants. Each of his (many) children also has a hierarchy of descendants which is a part of Genghis Khan's larger hierarchy of descendants. Their hierarchies are nested in his. At each level of the tree, there are more hierarchies to be found, until you reach the ends of the branches. That is what is meant by a "nested hierarchy".
As a corollary to this point, I was making the further point that a “tree of life” really doesn’t exist. It’s a figment of Darwin’s imagination, and also of our imagination, should we accept his ideas.
It's hard to know how to interpret that comment. Obviously, the tree of life is not a literal tree with leaves and bark and photosynthesis; it's an abstraction. But so is a family tree. If common descent is true, the tree of life is just as real as your family tree. Indeed, your family tree is part of the larger tree of life (remember the nested hierarchies). If common descent is not true, the tree of life is not real. To argue that common descent is not true because the tree of life isn't real is to get things exactly backward: you actually have to figure out whether common descent is true before you can decide whether the tree of life is real.Karl Pfluger
September 23, 2006
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Karl Pfluger:
A species is a species. An order is a group of species. I think you’re confused by the fact that for any order, there is a single ancestral species. But that doesn’t mean that the ancestral species is the order.
If we use the analogy of a tree, and onespecies gives rise to two species, and those two species in turn to two more each, and so forth, then, phylogenetically, they're all related. When enough related species exist, then we have a genera. As the species keep mulitplying, genera give rise to families and then orders. Now, all of these species are descendants of this one species from long, long ago. Using the analogy of a tree, then if we trace these phylogenetic lineages, they converge on the one species that brought about this diversity, and, according to Darwin's diagram--hence, presumably his thinking--this entire set of phylogenetic relationships has, as an analogy, the appearance of a branch--replete with smaller, and smaller sub-branches until you reach the "extant" stage of the outermost "twigs". This branch (the "order") is, according to the analogy, attached to an even larger branch, the "class" (again, through phylogenetic relations), which, finally is inserted into the main branches of the tree (the "phyla"). The problem I was pointing out in going backwards is this: the species from which the "order" radiated cannot be identified from the fossil record; the species from which the "class" radiates into "orders", etc, cannot be identified; the species from which the "phyla" radiate (the main branches) cannot be identified, and, of course, the bifurcating trunks (the "kingdoms") cannot be identified. If you look at any "tree of life", there are lots of question marks because these phylogenetic relationships cannot be identified. It's another way of pointing out that the "missing links" are missing; the "tree of life" is completely hypothetical. Now, when you talk about common descent, you are presuming that these "species" existed; that is, the "species" that gave rise to "kingdoms" (remember, per Darwins, the Creator originally breathed life into ONE or many forms), the "species" that gave rise to phyla, the "species" that gave rise to a "class", the "species" within the "class" that gave rise to an "order", etc. These are all presumed--there is no fossil evidence for them--to have existed. It's an act of faith. That's what I was pointing out: common descent makes several assumptions that can't be validated (or, at least, are not at this time). And "nested hierarchies" point out that these "species" have not been identified, for had they been identified, then the "hierarchies" wouldn't be "nested", they would be "connected" by these "species". And, so, we have to be careful about how we think about common descent. As a corollary to this point, I was making the further point that a "tree of life" really doesn't exist. It's a figment of Darwin's imagination, and also of our imagination, should we accept his ideas. As the commerical said: "Where's the beef?" Where's the proof that life fits together like a tree? Maybe it's better to think of it as a garden.PaV
September 22, 2006
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John Davison if you can't answer the question just say so. I don't know so obviously I don't have superior knowledge. I was bowing to yours. I am truly interested in what caused the differences. And if no one knows then that is what should be said. However that will also mean that CD can't be objectively tested.Joseph
September 22, 2006
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Karl Pfluger Are you aware of the fact that evolution is no longer in progress? Apparently not. Get with the program - please! "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 22, 2006
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Joseph wrote:
you do realize that Dr Theobald does not discuss a mechanism- right?
Yes, but he does specify that if the rate of evolution is too high, the cladistic information will be randomized and it will be difficult to reconstruct the correct tree. The fact that distinct characters yield consistent trees is an indication that the rate of evolution is generally not too high. NDE predicts a slow rate of evolution, for the simple reason that the odds of getting a large number of coordinated random mutations in one generation is so low. ID is compatible with slow rates, but it does not predict them. Thus NDE is a better fit to the data.
And btw “books in a library, or specially designed objects like buildings, furniture, cars, etc.”, can be objectively placed in nested hierarchies.
For any group of designed objects, you can construct a nested hierarchy based on a chosen character. What you'll find, however, is that the constructed hierarchy does not match hiearchies based on other chosen characters (see my computer example in an earlier comment on this thread). Descent with modification predicts that all of the hierachies will match in a statistically significant way. Common design does not. In fact, commond design allows for the hierarchies to be uncorrelated or even anticorrelated. Again, we don't see this, so NDE fits the data.Karl Pfluger
September 22, 2006
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Whatever you say joseph. I bow to your superior knowledge.John A. Davison
September 22, 2006
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John Davison: I am sorry but it most definitely is NOT true that common descent CANNOT explain the differences. Then why hasn't anyone told us what exactly caused the differences we observe between chimps and humans? For example what mutations gave rise to upright bipedal walking? The following site has a list of differences. None of which has been explained: Chimps become human? John Davison: While common descent has not yet been proven, it most certainly has not been disproven and nothing you or anyone else says will alter that. While common descent has not be demonstrated, it certainly cannot be demonstrated and nothing you or anyone else says will alter that. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Karl P: you do realize that Dr Theobald does not discuss a mechanism- right? And btw "books in a library, or specially designed objects like buildings, furniture, cars, etc.", can be objectively placed in nested hierarchies.Joseph
September 22, 2006
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bFast said ( comment #122 ) -- --"It is my understanding that flowering plants are a really rather recent phenomenon. It is also my understanding that little has changed in the insect world in response to the flowers appearing on the scene . . . . It would appear that the bees preceeded the flowers that they so actively polinate."-- But the bees in their present form need the flowers to survive, so how could the bees in their present form have preceded the flowers?Larry Fafarman
September 22, 2006
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Get this folks Chris Hyland just mentioned my name at "After the Bar Closes" but refused to quote anything I had said. Not to be out done, Alan Fox was stupid enough to quote me directly when I asserted, with my usual supreme confidence, that Mendelism had absolutely nothing to do with organic evolution except to bring it to a halt. God bless you Alan Fox. You continue, in your sublime ignorance, as you always have, to be my strongest supporter. Don't stop now. Traumatize your Darwimpian cronies with some more of Davison's devastating anti-Darwiniana. I dare you. You haven't got the guts and you know it, I know it, and the whole world knows it. You are terrified of the Big Bad Fisheries Biologist, sole proprietor of Panda's Pathetic Pollex, one of the last surviving bastions of the biggest hoax in the history of science, the Alamo of Darwimpian mysticism. I now predict that a stony silence will temporarily descend over Esley Welsberry's inner sanctum, bunker and knitting circle and my name will probably never be mentioned again for at least six months. I am sure I will not be quoted for at least that length of time and probably much longer. On the other hand Panda's Thumb may not even exist in six months. Let us pray. Thanks again Alan. You are a prince. It is hard to believe isn't it? I love it so! "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 22, 2006
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Bruce fast The "Italian guy" is Giuseppe Sermonti, like myself, a convinced Creationist and Editor of Rivista di Biologia where you will find many of my papers. While I am sure he does not agree with much of what I have proposed, he has published my heresies, a rare quality in an Editor. Most important, we share a common contempt for the Darwinian fairy tale. Sermonti exagerrated nothing. He is a gentleman and a scholar and I resent him being referred to as "some Italian guy." It makes you sound ignorant. "You don't want to call them wops. The dagos don't like it." Archie Bunker "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 22, 2006
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Larry Fafarman, "I think that the idea of co-evolution presents problems for prescribed evolution as well as Darwinian evolution." From what I have read, co-evolution pretty much didn't happen. It is my understanding that flowering plants are a really rather recent phenomenon. It is also my understanding that little has changed in the insect world in response to the flowers appearing on the scene. This reality is pointed out in "Why is a Fly not a Horse". (The author (some Italian guy) has exaggerated the situation to the point of ridecule, but the above fact does seem to prove to be true.) Further, I have seen a second recent study that reports the same shocking finding. It would appear that the bees preceeded the flowers that they so actively polinate. Bottom line, co-evolution was a good NDE tale, but there is painfully little evidence to support it.bFast
September 21, 2006
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PaV, I'm sorry, but I can't figure out exactly what you're trying to say in your last comment. The best I can do is to respond to specific assertions you make.
...out emerged a……BUSH. It looked like a shrub... Well, it’s a quite a stretch to call this thing a tree.
What do you mean by "bush" vs. "tree" and why do you think the difference is significant? Many biologists have opined that the evolutionary tree looks more like a bush. Others have pointed out that we reconstruct the tree based on non-extinct lineages and whatever fossils we find. Any extinct lineage which has not yet yielded fossils will be missing from the tree. If we were able to fill in all of these missing branches, the tree would take on a more bush-like aspect. But how does any of this cast doubt on common descent or evolution?
...in the strange world of Darwinism, certain species make it all the way to becoming an “order”—the spot just below Classes of animals.
A species is a species. An order is a group of species. I think you're confused by the fact that for any order, there is a single ancestral species. But that doesn't mean that the ancestral species is the order.
I now propose if possible, that we take a return trip from extant, living “species” to the “orders”, “classes” and “phyla” that they must belong to if, in fact, they belong to a “nested hierarchy”... But as we try to get to larger branches, well, what do you know, THEY DON’T EXIST. THEY’RE NOT THERE!!!
PaV, you have totally misunderstood what Darwin's tree is supposed to represent. It is not, repeat not, a snapshot of life at a given moment. It is rather a representation of the history of life over time. All currently existing species are represented by the ends of branches and twigs. If you were to take a snapshot of life right now, you would get a constellation-like field of dots, with no twigs, branches, or trunk to connect them. Go backwards in time, however, and you will see the points moving, drawing out twigs and branches, getting closer to each other, and merging. At the points where the twigs and branches merge, you have a common ancestor. The twigs and branches continue to join until you reach the trunk. To reiterate, the tree shows the history of life across time. The root is the earliest point on the tree. The twig and branch tips represent the year 2006. The trunk, branches and twigs illustrate the progress of life between those two times.Karl Pfluger
September 21, 2006
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I think that the idea of co-evolution presents problems for prescribed evolution as well as Darwinian evolution. On my blog, I said about the co-dependence of bees and flowers, ---". . . .what would be necessary is that large numbers of the bees and flowers possessing the corresponding beneficial mutations would miraculously have to simultaneously appear in the same place, because a single bee visits many flowers, and each flower is visited by many bees." --- -- from http://im-from-missouri.blogspot.com/2006/04/co-evolutionary-paradox.html John A. Davison commented, -- "The mutual morphological and physiological adaptations that characterize bee/flower relationships for example arose simultaneously as each form was reading the same prescribed blueprint setting up the relationship, a blueprint that had been established long before and was finally being read." --- -- from http://im-from-missouri.blogspot.com/2006/04/co-evolutionary-paradox.html#c114657316191630865 The question is, what could trigger these genetic changes so that large numbers of both co-dependent organisms would appear at exactly the same time in exactly the same place? I also discuss co-evolution at: http://im-from-missouri.blogspot.com/2006/09/co-evolution-redux.htmlLarry Fafarman
September 21, 2006
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