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Is Larry Moran a conspiracy theorist?

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That’s the only conclusion I can draw, after reading Professor Larry Moran’s latest reply to my post, No evidence for God’s existence, you say? A response to Larry Moran. More on that anon. I will, however, note for the record that Professor Moran has backed down from his original assertion that there is no evidence whatsoever for God’s existence. He now writes:

When I say there’s no evidence for the existence of god(s) I mean that there is no “evidence” that stands up to close scrutiny… That brings up the question of what defines “valid evidence.” The short answer is “I don’t know” but I know it when I see it.

“I know it when I see it.” Hmm. Where have I heard that one before? Oh yes – Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart used the phrase back in 1964, when attempting to define “hard-core-pornography.” Justice Stewart’s definition made for poor law, because it left the ultimate decision of what constituted “obscenity” up to the whim of the courts. Professor Moran’s definition leaves the decision as to what counts as valid scientific evidence in the hands of one man: himself! A rather subjective criterion, wouldn’t you agree?

Professor Moran’s startling silence on the origin of life

I also note that in his latest reply to my post, Professor Moran, who is a well-respected biochemist, had not a word to say about the origin of life, despite the fact that a leading evolutionary biologist, Dr. Eugene Koonin, has calculated that the odds of even a very basic life-form – a coupled replication-translation system – emerging anywhere in the observable universe are astronomically low: 1 in 1 followed by 1,018 zeroes, on his extremely generous “toy model” of the primordial Earth. (By comparison, the number of atoms in the cosmos is only 1 followed by 82 zeroes, so even if there are lots of Earth-like planets in the universe, it won’t help matters much.) Dr. Koonin’s calculation can be found in his peer-reviewed article, The Cosmological Model of Eternal Inflation and the Transition from Chance to Biological Evolution in the History of Life, Biology Direct 2 (2007): 15, doi:10.1186/1745-6150-2-15. To circumvent the difficulty, Dr. Koonin posits a multiverse, but there are several problems with that hypothesis, as I pointed out in my recent post, Professor Krauss Objects (February 3, 2015):

The multiverse hypothesis faces five formidable problems: first, it merely shifts the fine-tuning problem up one level, as a multiverse capable of generating even one life-supporting universe would still need to be fine-tuned; second, the multiverse hypothesis itself implies that a sizable proportion of universes (including perhaps our own) were intelligently designed; third, the multiverse hypothesis predicts that most of the intelligent life-forms that exist should be “Boltzmann brains” that momentarily fluctuate into and out of existence; fourth, the multiverse hypothesis predicts that a universe containing intelligent life should be much smaller than the one we live in; and fifth, the multiverse hypothesis cannot account for the fact that the laws of physics are not only life-permitting, but also mathematically elegant – a fact acknowledged even by physicists with no religious beliefs.

I was hoping that Professor Moran would provide a detailed critique Dr. Koonin’s calculations in his latest reply, but none was forthcoming. On the basis of these calculations, coupled with the multiple failings of the multiverse hypothesis, I can only conclude that the origin of life points to its having had a Designer of some sort – a point which Professor Moran still refuses to acknowledge. To his credit, however, he has recently conceded that “We don’t know how the first information-containing molecules arose and how they came to be self-replicating,” and has also declared himself to be skeptical of the “primordial soup” and “RNA world” hypotheses.

The fine-tuning of the universe

Sadly, Professor Moran completely fails to come to terms with the fine-tuning argument in his latest reply to my post. He breezily dismisses the fine-tuning argument in three sentences:

If the universe is really “fine tuned” for the existence of life — and that is disputed by many scientists — then why does that constitute evidence of gods? We could not possibly find ourselves in any universe that was not compatible with the existence of life. If this universe arose entirely by accident then we would still be here discussing the meaning of evidence.

Nowhere in his post does Professor Moran name the “many scientists” who dispute the fine-tuning of the universe for life. For those readers who are interested, I would strongly recommend cosmologist Luke Barnes’ online essay, The Fine-Tuning of the Universe for Intelligent Life. I’ve read many rebuttals over the years, but I have to say that Dr. Barnes’ rebuttal of the scientific objections to fine-tuning is absolutely devastating. At the end of his magisterial essay, he writes:

We conclude that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of life. Of all the ways that the laws of nature, constants of physics and initial conditions of the universe could have been, only a very small subset permits the existence of intelligent life.

After this poor start, Professor Moran’s attack on the fine-tuning argument continues to go downhill. Moran’s comments reveal that he has completely failed to grasp the logic of the fine-tuning argument. He flippantly dismisses the argument on the grounds that “[w]e could not possibly find ourselves in any universe that was not compatible with the existence of life.” But this remark is utterly beside the point. For proponents of the fine-tuning argument do not argue that because we happen to live in a life-friendly universe, therefore it must be designed. Rather, what they argue is that because we live in a universe which would be incapable of supporting life if its fundamental parameters were even slightly different, it is reasonable to infer that our universe is a put-up job. This inference would remain valid, even if it turned out that there were other, unknown values of the constants of Nature which would allow universes very different from our own to support life. The philosopher John Leslie explains why, using his now-famous “fly-on-the-wall” analogy:

If a tiny group of flies is surrounded by a largish fly-free wall area then whether a bullet hits a fly in the group will be very sensitive to the direction in which the firer’s rifle points, even if other very different areas of the wall are thick with flies. So it is sufficient to consider a local area of possible universes, e.g., those produced by slight changes in gravity’s strength, or in the early cosmic expansion speed which reflects that strength. It certainly needn’t be claimed that Life and Intelligence could exist only if certain force strengths, particle masses, etc. fell within certain narrow ranges. For all we know, it might well be that universes could be life-permitting even if none of the forces and particles known to us were present in them. All that need be claimed is that a lifeless universe would have resulted from fairly minor changes in the forces etc. with which we are familiar.
(Universes, Routledge, 1989; paperback, 1996, pp. 138-9)

The fact that Professor Moran displays such a poor understanding of the logic of the fine-tuning argument indicates that he has neither read widely nor pondered deeply on the subject. His dismissal of the argument merely reflects his ignorance of it.

Finally, Professor Moran grumbles that the fact that life arose “on one small insignificant planet near the edge of an otherwise unremarkable galaxy” looks “pretty haphazard” to a non-believer like himself. But surely the most salient fact here is that life arose anywhere in the universe at all. The question of which planet (or planets) it arose on is of secondary importance.

Professor Moran’s “conspiracy theory” regarding a historically well-attested miracles

But the most ridiculous part of professor Moran’s reply relates to the occurrence of miracles. In my post, I focused on one particularly well-attested miracle: the levitations of the St. Joseph of Cupertino, who was seen levitating well above the ground and even flying for some distance through the air, on literally thousands of occasions, by believers and skeptics alike, in the seventeenth century. I referred curious readers to a biography by D. Bernini (Vita Del Giuseppe da Copertino, 1752, Roma: Ludovico Tinassi and Girolamo Mainardi), as well as an online article, The flying saint (The Messenger of Saint Anthony, January 2003), by Renzo Allegri. Here’s a brief excerpt:

Chronicles recount, as we have already said, that he need only hear the name of Jesus, of the Virgin Mary, or of a saint before going into an ecstasy. He used to let out a wail and float in the air, remaining suspended between heaven and earth for hours. An inadmissible phenomenon for our modern mentality.

“To doubt is understandable,” Fr. Giulio Berettoni, rector of the Shrine of St. Joseph of Cupertino in Osimo tells me “but it isn’t justifiable. If we take a serious look at the saint’s life from a historical point of view, then we see that we cannot question his ecstasies. There are numerous witness accounts. They began to be documented in 1628, and this continued until Joseph’s death in 1663, i.e. for 35 years. In certain periods, the phenomenon is recorded to have taken place more than once a day. It has been calculated that Joseph’s ‘ecstatic flights’ took place at least 1,000 to 1,500 times in his lifetime, perhaps even more, and that they were witnessed by thousands of people. They were the phenomenon of the century. They were so sensational and so public that they attracted attention from curious people from all walks of life, Italians and foreigners, believers and unbelievers, simple folk, but also scholars, scientists, priests, bishops and cardinals. They continued to occur in every situation, in whatever church in which the saint prayed or celebrated Mass. It is impossible to doubt such a sensational and public phenomenon which repeated itself over time. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

In my post, I warned against using miracles to support the claims of one religion against another, but I added that miracles like the levitations of St. Joseph of Cupertino – which could be prompted by St. Joseph’s hearing the name of Jesus, of the Virgin Mary, or of a saint – certainly constituted evidence for God’s existence.

And what was Professor Moran’s reply to this mountain of evidence? To deny its very existence! In his own words:

If I were to accept the claim advanced by Vincent Torley then this would, indeed, constitute evidence that something very weird happened back in 1630. But I reject the claim. I simply don’t believe that people actually witnessed Joseph of Cupertino flying through the air. It’s not a fact. It’s not evidence.

This is a case where an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence. You can’t just rely on what people say they saw because if that’s all you need then there must be fairies at the bottom of the garden. And UFO abductions would be real.

The meager evidence for alien abductions

Let me note for the record that alleged “memories” of UFO abductions typically appear only under hypnosis, and that in the vast majority of cases, these abductions involve only one individual. After checking out some of “the best” alleged cases, I was able to find one case, the Allagash Waterway abduction of 1976, which involved four people. Here are the relevant details:

This famous case from 1976 involved four men who claimed to experience the same abduction, a secret they almost took to their graves.
The men were fishing in a canoe in northern Maine when they saw a gleaming UFO with an 80-foot diameter and changing red, yellow and green colors. According to the men, the UFO swooped down and beamed them up with their canoe in a blinding light. They came to several hours later not remembering anything after their abduction, but began to have frightening nightmares. They all underwent hypnosis and revealed their kidnappers were not from Earth. All of the men also took lie detector tests about their claims and passed.

Once again, the memories only surfaced only under hypnosis, and we are not told to what extent the four men’s accounts corroborated one another. A skeptical reviewer pithily summed up the poor state of the “evidence”:

A decade after a weird fishing trip, a severe blow to the head makes one of the fishermen suspect he’d been abducted by space aliens. Not just that something weird had happened; he went in believing UFOs were at the heart of it. “Evidence” was then collected by the least reliable method, hypnosis, and the four received some money and a lot of fame. I don’t know what happened that night, but I do know that a story has got to be a lot stronger than what they’ve got to convince me of the existence of space aliens, flying around and kidnapping people.

The massive documentary evidence for St. Joseph of Cupertino’s levitations

By contrast, the levitations of St. Joseph of Cupertino were witnessed by thousands of people, on thousands of occasions, over a period of 35 years. Allow me to quote from a blog articleWhy Levitation? by Michael Grosso (October 8, 2013), who has done extensive research on the saint:

By chance, on a trip to Italy some years ago I acquired a 1722 biography of St. Joseph of Copertino.

I had read accounts of St. Joseph’s levitations in a scholarly essay by Eric Dingwall and also in Herbert Thurston’s book, The Physical Phenomena of Mysticism. Eventually I began to read Domenico Bernini’s biography of Joseph, which Dingwall had cited as being rich in sworn eyewitness testimonies of the saint’s phenomena, which included more than levitation. I delved into the critical literature and assembled my own thoughts on the subject in a forthcoming book, The Strange Case of St. Joseph of Copertino: Ecstasy and the Mind-Body Problem (Oxford University Press). Joseph’s performances were never dubious sightings; they were show-stoppers, and his reputation as miracle mystic man spread all over Italy and then Europe….

The records show at least 150 sworn depositions of witnesses of high credentials: cardinals, bishops, surgeons, craftsmen, princes and princesses who personally lived by his word, popes, inquisitors, and countless variety of ordinary citizens and pilgrims. There are letters, diaries and biographies written by his superiors while living with him. Arcangelo di Rosmi recorded 70 incidents of levitation; and then decided it was enough. Streams of inexplicable events surrounded the black-bearded friar. Driven by malicious curiosity, even Joseph’s inquisitors observed him in ecstatic levitation during Mass. Their objection to him was not the fact that he levitated; they were concerned with where the power was coming from, God or the Devil?

It is impossible to suppose that all the stories about levitation were part of a Church plot to use miracles to control the mind of the masses. It wasn’t like that at all. The only way to make sense of the Church’s treatment of Joseph is to assume that he possessed these strange abilities in such abundance that there was talk of a new messiah arising. Joseph’s response to his Inquisitor’s was humble and honest. He had to explain that he enjoyed these “consolations” but that he was not proud or pleased with himself for having them. Nevertheless, the Church progressively tried to make him retreat to the most obscure corners of the Adriatic coast, ending finally under virtual house arrest in a small monastic community at Osimo. There was no decline effect in Joseph’s strange aerial behaviors; during his last six years in Osimo he was left alone to plunge into his interior life; the records are unanimous in saying that the ratti (raptures) were in abundance right up until his dying days. The cleric in charge of the community swore that he witnessed Joseph levitate to the ceiling of his cell thousands of times. The surgeon Pierpaolo was cauterizing Joseph’s leg shortly before his death when he realized the friar was insensible and floating in the air. He and his assistant both deposed that they bent down and looked beneath Joseph’s horizontal body, to be sure they weren’t dreaming.

To repudiate the evidence for Joseph’s levitations would be to repudiate thirty-five years of history because the records of his life are quite detailed and entangled with other lives and documented historical events. We would have to assume colossal mendacity and unbelievable stupidity on the part of thousands of people, if we chose to reject this evidence. We would be forced to believe that when the duchess of Parma wrote in a letter that Joseph was the “prodigy of the century”, she was romancing or totally deluded.

Perhaps readers are wondering where one can find the documentation for all of the miracles associated with St. Joseph of Cupertino. I’ve located a short pamphlet entitled, The Life of Saint Joseph of Cupertino by Fr. Christopher Shorrock O.F.M. Conv. (1985) which has this to say on the subject:

A number of biographies of St Joseph of Cupertino have been prepared in the past and give us extensive details of the extraordinary life of the saint. Of paramount importance are the thirteen volumes of the Process of Canonization preserved in the Vatican Archives. In this great literary work we find recounted the numerous testimonies of witnesses (including princes, cardinals, bishops and doctors) who knew St Joseph personally and in many cases were eyewitnesses to the wonderful events of his life. These episodes clearly reveal a man completely open to the transforming grace of God.

And how about this excerpt from an article by Thomas Craughwell in the Catholic Herald (13 September 2007)?

When the Father General of the Franciscans took Joseph to a private audience with Pope Urban VIII, Joseph levitated in the presence of the Holy Father. An astonished Pope Urban said if he outlived Joseph, he would promote Joseph’s cause for canonization and personally attest to this miracle. On another occasion when Joseph was living in Assisi, Spain’s ambassador to the Papal Court brought his wife and a large retinue to see Joseph. As he entered the church to meet his visitors Joseph saw a statue of the Immaculate Conception. He floated off the floor and flew over the heads of the ambassador and his party to the statue where he remained suspended in the air. Then he floated back to the church door, and made a gentle landing. The Inquisition heard about Joseph and commanded him to appear before their tribunal. On Oct. 21, 1638, as the inquisitors questioned him, Joseph levitated.

And here’s an excerpt (courtesy of Eternal Word Television Network) from the entry for St. Joseph of Cupertino (whose feast day is September 18) in The Saints: A Concise Biographical Dictionary (ed. John Coulson, Hawthorn Books, Inc., 1960):

What strikes us immediately is that his miracles kept drawing such crowds that not only was he up before the Inquisition, but his desperate Superiors sent him from convent to convent. Once the Inquisition removed him to a Capuchin friary, where he was kept in strict enclosure and forbidden even to write or receive letters — to his own bewilderment: ‘Must I go to prison, then?’ he said. Yet, at Assisi, the duke of Brunswick and Hanover, after visiting him, abjured Lutheranism and became a Catholic; Urban VIII, having seen him in ecstasy, said that should Joseph die first, he himself would give evidence of what he had seen. Most important, Prosper Lambertini did his best, as Promotor Fidei (‘Devil’s Advocate’), to discredit him, yet afterwards (as Benedict XIV) published the decree of Joseph’s beatification in 1753 and, in his classical work on Beatification, alluded to the ‘eye-witnesses of unchallengeable integrity’ who witnessed to Joseph’s ‘upliftings from the ground and prolonged flights’. It is difficult to see how, if we reject this evidence, we shall ever find any historical evidence acceptable.

Let me repeat that last sentence: “It is difficult to see how, if we reject this evidence, we shall ever find any historical evidence acceptable.” Yet Professor Moran would have us believe that these thousands of people were all part of a massive hoax: the biggest hoax in history. Nobody, he says, saw St. Joseph levitate. If this does not make him a conspiracy theorist, then I can only ask: what does?

The devil, you say?

Now, I am aware that some readers will caution that just because an individual levitated, that does not prove his levitations were divine in origin; they might conceivably be diabolical. But at the very least, they indicate the existence of a supernatural reality, and only a person whose mind was utterly closed would refuse to acknowledge that fact. It is a pity that Professor Moran cannot bring himself to open his mind to the possibility of the miraculous.

Professor Moran cites Sagan’s dictum that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. But he never attempts to give a quantitative answer to the question: “How extraordinary must the evidence be?” The evidence for naturalism is, at best, cumulative. Given that the number of discrete events (or elementary bit-operations) that have occurred during the history of the universe has been estimated at less than 10^150, it follows (using Laplace’s famous sunrise argument) that the probability we should assign to the claim that the next event we witness will not be a natural one can be no lower than 1 in 10^~120. Hence if we can calculate that the combined probability of thousands of eyewitnesses hallucinating and/or perjuring themselves about having witnessed a levitation when they didn’t – and remember, back in those days, everyone in Italy really believed that perjury was a sin you could go to Hell for committing – on thousands of occasions is less than 1 in 10^~120, then the hallucination and fraud hypotheses become even more extraordinary than the hypothesis of a miracle, which then becomes the most rational one to adopt. Since the sightings occurred on multiple occasions and a multiple locations, we can treat them as independent events, and calculate accordingly. Thus it is not difficult to obtain a figure far lower than 1 in 10^~120. Take that, Carl Sagan!

Comments
"Mr Fanti, a Catholic, said his results were the fruit of 15 years of research. He said the carbon-14 dating tests carried out in 1988 were “false” because of laboratory contamination." So he couldn't even get that story straight but he successfully dated it to exactly where theists wanted it to be? And he's a catholic? Selling a book? Funny that his analysis is in a book and not a peer reviewed article. Because that doesn't scream agenda or anything. "He certainly did not replicated it ‘in all its facets’ as you originally claimed. The image is a friggin cartoon compared to the shroud!" Again, the point was not his artistic skills. He made an image with knowledge available in Da Vinci's time. So how about those 14C datings done by independent labs?CHartsil
February 25, 2015
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Still no apology to silver? "How do you gain new knowledge of something that’s supposedly been in your possession for 2000 years?" So the same Pope has been alive for 2000 years???? :) i.e. The historical records had to be recovered, and the invisible reweaving 're-remembered', as they, finally, were. "The point was he replicated it using knowledge available in the 1400s" He certainly did not replicated it 'in all its facets' as you originally claimed. The image is a friggin cartoon compared to the shroud! Part 1 of 13 Rebuttal to Luigi Garlischelli Shroud Forgery – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it7vw7LU13U as to bias: Garlaschelli received funding for his work by an Italian association of atheists and agnostics but said it had no effect on his results. "Money has no odor," http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/10/05/us-italy-shroud-idUSTRE5943HL20091005 Well it is clear CH could care less for truth,,, I'm out of here.bornagain77
February 25, 2015
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"Then show (me) the new datings that put it at 2000 years old" Turin Shroud 'is not a medieval forgery' - 28 Mar 2013 Excerpt: Experiments conducted by scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy have dated the shroud to ancient times, a few centuries before and after the life of Christ.,,, The analysis is published in a new book, "Il Mistero della Sindone" or The Mystery of the Shroud, by Giulio Fanti, a professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at Padua University,,, Scientists, including Prof Fanti, used infra-red light and spectroscopy – the measurement of radiation intensity through wavelengths – to analyse fibres from the shroud,,, The tests dated the age of the shroud to between 300 BC and 400AD.,,, Scientists have never been able to explain how the image of a man's body, complete with nail wounds to his wrists and feet, pinpricks from thorns around his forehead and a spear wound to his chest, could have formed on the cloth. Mr Fanti said the imprint was caused by a blast of “exceptional radiation”, although he stopped short of describing it as a miracle. He said his tests backed up earlier results which claimed to have found on the shroud traces of dust and pollen which could only have come from the Holy Land.,,, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9958678/Turin-Shroud-is-not-a-medieval-forgery.html Giulio Fanti and the Turin Shroud - load bearing test, infared test, Shroud dated to time of Christ - 34:00 minute mark - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4c4812XA9A Shroud Of Turin Real? New Research Dates Relic To 1st Century, Time Of Jesus Christ – with video - 28 Mar 2013 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/28/shroud-of-turin-real-jesus_n_2971850.html and: Shroud Of Turin - Sewn From Two Pieces - 2000 Years Old (Matches Masada Cloth) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uST6qt9pfoo The Shroud of Turin - Evidence it is authentic Excerpt: In June 2002, the Shroud was sent to a team of experts for restoration. One of them was Swiss textile historian Mechthild Flury-Lemberg. She was surprised to find a peculiar stitching pattern in the seam of one long side of the Shroud, where a three-inch wide strip of the same original fabric was sewn onto a larger segment. The stitching pattern, which she says was the work of a professional, is quite similar to the hem of a cloth found in the tombs of the Jewish fortress of Masada. The Masada cloth dates to between 40 BC and 73 AD. This kind of stitch has never been found in Medieval Europe. http://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.htmlbornagain77
February 25, 2015
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>I’ve got a feeling this is the kind of argumentation that is used to defend evolutionary theory. >It’s the tintype of an autopatriarchical space zombie >The idea that a human took a hundred year old sheet and painted on it is ludicrous "Garlaschelli applied various substances to the cloth where no traces of such can be found on the Shroud." "the ‘technique’ was certainly not ‘reproduced’, the differences between the two images are vast." The point was he replicated it using knowledge available in the 1400s Still waiting on that new round of 14C dating showing that it's 2000 years old. Also still waiting on the explanation of how the Holy See deduced the materials taken for the original dating were from a patch only *after* the dating. How do you gain new knowledge of something that's supposedly been in your possession for 2000 years?CHartsil
February 25, 2015
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the 'technique' was certainly not 'reproduced', the differences between the two images are vast. Part 1 of 13 Rebuttal to Luigi Garlischelli Shroud Forgery – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it7vw7LU13Ubornagain77
February 25, 2015
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Garlaschelli applied various substances to the cloth where no traces of such can be found on the Shroud.Silver Asiatic
February 25, 2015
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A shroud was put on display, which was later altered.
They built a chapel to display an ordinary shroud. Then 100 years later DaVinci came along and made a really good version of it? I've got a feeling this is the kind of argumentation that is used to defend evolutionary theory. Just throw any conjecture out there and act like it's absolutely certain. In no case can the materialist fairy-tale be questioned or doubted.Silver Asiatic
February 25, 2015
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"“it misses out on the accuracy and subtleties that are in the actual image.”" The point wasn't that Garlaschelli was an artist, the point was that the technique could be reproduced Still waiting on that new round of 14C dating showing that it's 2000 years old. You remind me of one of those herbal supplement informercials. They guarantee their product by doing everything except submitting it to trials by the FDACHartsil
February 25, 2015
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Experts question scientist’s claim of reproducing Shroud of Turin - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: Propp explained that while Garlaschelli’s cloth does have some aspects of light and dark to create a three-dimensional perspective, “it’s nowhere near as sophisticated as the shroud” and that “it misses out on the accuracy and subtleties that are in the actual image.” Dr. Jackson from the Turin Shroud Center also touched on the same point, saying, “The shroud’s image intensity varies with” the distances in between the cloth and the body. While he admitted that the images of Garlaschelli’s shroud on the internet look authentic, when taken from a 3-D perspective, “it’s really rather grotesque.” “The hands are embedded into the body and the legs have unnatural looking lumps and bumps,” he explained. http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/experts_question_scientists_claim_of_reproducing_shroud_of_turin/ 5 minutes and I found it. Out of the countless hours you spend trolling, you couldn't spare 5 minutes? Still no apology to silver?bornagain77
February 25, 2015
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"and the conspiracy plot thickens" >It's the tintype of an autopatriarchical space zombie >The idea that a human took a hundred year old sheet and painted on it is ludicrous You can always make a video about it, JJ. So how's that SignatureInTheCell channel doing?CHartsil
February 25, 2015
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"A shroud was put on display, which was later altered." and the conspiracy plot thickens :)bornagain77
February 25, 2015
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"The datings, as you were clearly shown, are debunked. Only a desperate man would cling to them." Then show us the new datings that put it at 2000 years old I post an article that takes 2 minutes to read, you post a 90 minute video series. Gish galloping is not limited to text.CHartsil
February 25, 2015
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"There were multiple datings done independently." The datings, as you were clearly shown, are debunked. Only a desperate man would cling to them. The Garlaschelli replica is a joke: Part 1 of 13 Rebuttal to Luigi Garlischelli Shroud Forgery - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it7vw7LU13Ubornagain77
February 25, 2015
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"DaVinci was born 100 years after the Shroud was displayed in Lirey (where a chapel was built in 1354 to display the Shroud)." A shroud was put on display, which was later altered. The entire point of the dating was that it was from the 1300s "Not even an acknowledgement that you were wrong on Da Vinci?" >Garlaschelli reproduced the full-sized shroud using materials and techniques that were available in the middle ages. Maybe you should make a video about it. You could put it on your SITC channelCHartsil
February 25, 2015
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Not even an acknowledgement that you were wrong on Da Vinci? Perhaps an apology for being wrong? and certainly a Thanks to Silver for correcting you?!? Where is your integrity and manners? It is clear that truth matters not for you when you behave as such when you were shown to be wrong!bornagain77
February 25, 2015
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"Actually the ‘multiple datings’ were from the same corner of the Shroud clothe that had been subjected to reweaving" There were multiple datings done independently. Again, funny how we only knew it was a reweaving after the dates debunked it and the Holy See refuses to allow it to be tested again. "Funny that Da Vinci was so insanely smart that we still cannot reproduce the Shroud with all its facets as he did even though we have far greater technology than he did" http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/10/05/us-italy-shroud-idUSTRE5943HL20091005 >Garlaschelli reproduced the full-sized shroud using materials and techniques that were available in the middle ages.CHartsil
February 25, 2015
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DaVinci was born 100 years after the Shroud was displayed in Lirey (where a chapel was built in 1354 to display the Shroud).Silver Asiatic
February 25, 2015
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Funny that Da Vinci was so insanely smart that we still cannot reproduce the Shroud with all its facets as he did even though we have far greater technology than he did: Shroud Of Turin Is Authentic, Italian Study Suggests – December 2011 Excerpt: Last year scientists were able to replicate marks on the cloth using highly advanced ultraviolet techniques that weren’t available 2,000 years ago — nor during the medieval times, for that matter.,,, Since the shroud and “all its facets” still cannot be replicated using today’s top-notch technology, researchers suggest it is impossible that the original image could have been created in either period. http://www.thegopnet.com/shroud-of-turin-is-authentic-italian-study-suggests-87037bornagain77
February 25, 2015
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Actually the 'multiple datings' were from the same corner of the Shroud clothe that had been subjected to reweaving: Robert Villarreal from Los Alamos notes that they 'failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole',,, “Analytical Results on Thread Samples Taken from the Raes Sampling Area (Corner) of the Shroud Cloth” (Aug 2008) Excerpt: The age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case……. LANL’s work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. – Robert Villarreal – Los Alamos National Laboratory http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/ Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned – Robert Villarreal – Press Release video http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=DPPWDPNX Moreover, in the following video you will notice how the older to younger range of dates match precisely the reweaving pattern percentages for each sample used by each lab,, New Evidence Overturns Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating – Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford – video (with Raymond Rogers, lead chemist from the STURP project) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDdx6vxthE Thus your carbon dating evidence is found to be wanting for integrity.bornagain77
February 25, 2015
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>Believes a magic Jew ethereally burned his picture into a piece of cloth without question despite multiple datings putting it in the 1300s >Accuses someone else of not being skeptical enough. Da Vinci was insanely smart and there are numerous things he did just because he could.CHartsil
February 25, 2015
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Funny you have no skepticism whatsoever that a unknown medieval artist could produce a photographic negative 500 years before photography and, moreover, you have no skepticism whatsoever that that same unknown medieval artist could encode that photographic negative image with 3-D holographic information 600 years before holography was discovered, but you have hyper-skepticism towards the fact that the carbon dating was botched. Shroud Of Turin - Photographic Negative - 3D Hologram - The Lamb - video http://www.tunesbaby.com/watch/?x=5664213bornagain77
February 25, 2015
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If the Shroud is authentic and the datings were done on a patch then why won't the Holy See allow another round of 14C dating to be done on it? And how did they only know it was a patch AFTER the dating results came back? How do you get new information on something you've had for over a 1000 years? "It's authentic you guys, and we'll say anything we have to to convince you. We just won't do the one thing that really matters."CHartsil
February 25, 2015
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Vincent Torley has this habit of repeating discredited nonsense in lengthy essays. Origin of life, fine tuning, miracles...none of your points count as evidence for God. I have exposed the fallacies in your arguments in your previous thread and in replies to Barry before that. But Vincent refuses to listen (as is typical of most creationists) and keeps on dishing out the same junk. Nothing is gonna convince hardcore theists like Vincent, but here's a new debate between PZ Myers and Fuz Rana. PZ nicely exposes the ludicrous arguments theists usually make: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zhhAiM_iA0Evolve
February 24, 2015
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I believe the Maillard reaction (ammonia – not amine) sufficiently explains the TS image. You don’t need exotic Vacuum UVs.
Emm no it doesn't explain it. 1. In the experiment, the Maillar reaction cannot progress forever because due to the massive release of amines, the final image would be blurred beyond 36 hours. 2. Maillar reaction originates water but if the amount of water produced accumulates and moves beyond certain boundaries, this will inhibit any further progress of the reaction. For this reason, the arrangement of the cloth might be a critical issue because a tightly wrapped linen is far more likely to capture water and inhibit further developments of Maillar. On the contrary, a loose cloth would allow evaporation of important fractions of the water generated by Maillar and subsequent progress of the chemical reaction.JimFit
February 24, 2015
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Miracles- Blind and undirected processes producing a living organisms from matter and energy Blind and undirected processes producing eukaryotes from populations of prokaryotes Blind and undirected processes producing the genetic code Blind and undirected processes producing meiosis That's just a startJoe
February 24, 2015
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CHartsil @ 52, There is no doubt that Shroud of Turin shows an imprint of a human. The height-field data would not be possible if the image was a painting or photograph. I believe the Maillard reaction (ammonia – not amine) sufficiently explains the TS image. You don’t need exotic Vacuum UVs.Me_Think
February 24, 2015
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What Atheists don't understand is that a supernatural event IS ATTACHED TO THE NATURAL WORLD therefor its perfectly explainable from Science, the only thing that isn't explainable by science is the intention of the miracle. Lets say that a farmer goes to the field and finds an embellished message that says "Hello",he calls the Scientists who study this message, they find out that the message was embellished with laser from the sky, they explained it but they didn't explained who tried to communicate with the farmer.JimFit
February 24, 2015
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The Shroud of Turin - Evidence it is authentic Excerpt: In June 2002, the Shroud was sent to a team of experts for restoration. One of them was Swiss textile historian Mechthild Flury-Lemberg. She was surprised to find a peculiar stitching pattern in the seam of one long side of the Shroud, where a three-inch wide strip of the same original fabric was sewn onto a larger segment. The stitching pattern, which she says was the work of a professional, is quite similar to the hem of a cloth found in the tombs of the Jewish fortress of Masada. The Masada cloth dates to between 40 BC and 73 AD. This kind of stitch has never been found in Medieval Europe. http://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html Shroud Of Turin - Sewn From Two Pieces - 2000 Years Old (Matches Masada Cloth) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uST6qt9pfoo Turin Shroud 'is not a medieval forgery' - 28 Mar 2013 Excerpt: Experiments conducted by scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy have dated the shroud to ancient times, a few centuries before and after the life of Christ.,,, The analysis is published in a new book, "Il Mistero della Sindone" or The Mystery of the Shroud, by Giulio Fanti, a professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at Padua University,,, Scientists, including Prof Fanti, used infra-red light and spectroscopy – the measurement of radiation intensity through wavelengths – to analyse fibres from the shroud,,, The tests dated the age of the shroud to between 300 BC and 400AD.,,, Scientists have never been able to explain how the image of a man's body, complete with nail wounds to his wrists and feet, pinpricks from thorns around his forehead and a spear wound to his chest, could have formed on the cloth. Mr Fanti said the imprint was caused by a blast of “exceptional radiation”, although he stopped short of describing it as a miracle. He said his tests backed up earlier results which claimed to have found on the shroud traces of dust and pollen which could only have come from the Holy Land.,,, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9958678/Turin-Shroud-is-not-a-medieval-forgery.html Giulio Fanti and the Turin Shroud - load bearing test, infared test, Shroud dated to time of Christ - 34:00 minute mark - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4c4812XA9A Markwardt: Full Length History of the Shroud - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIEcpDh_Cx0 Jesus and the Shroud of Turin (1999) - film (with botanical, pollen, evidence and Sudarium face clothe) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BxmbIGQBX4&list=TLiNFfeCC-tlrozUQ_7daWXibc5X_m11ribornagain77
February 24, 2015
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as to: "It’s been shown that Da Vinci could’ve made the Shroud of Turin with knowledge and technology in his day. That along with the three independent 14C datings that put it in the middle ages doesn’t fare well for the shroud" Shroud Of Turin Is Authentic, Italian Study Suggests - December 2011 Excerpt: Last year scientists were able to replicate marks on the cloth using highly advanced ultraviolet techniques that weren’t available 2,000 years ago — nor during the medieval times, for that matter.,,, Since the shroud and “all its facets” still cannot be replicated using today’s top-notch technology, researchers suggest it is impossible that the original image could have been created in either period. http://www.thegopnet.com/shroud-of-turin-is-authentic-italian-study-suggests-87037 Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural - December 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. "The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin," they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: "This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html New Evidence Overturns Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating - Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford - video (with Raymond Rogers, lead chemist from the STURP project) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDdx6vxthE Barrie Schwortz: Remembering Ray Rogers - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG6H5MklK3s Rogers passed away shortly after publishing this paper, but his work was ultimately verified by the Los Alamos National Laboratory: Carbon Dating Of The Turin Shroud Completely Overturned by Scientific Peer Review Excerpt: Rogers also asked John Brown, a materials forensic expert from Georgia Tech to confirm his finding using different methods. Brown did so. He also concluded that the shroud had been mended with newer material. Since then, a team of nine scientists at Los Alamos has also confirmed Rogers work, also with different methods and procedures. Much of this new information has been recently published in Chemistry Today. http://shroudofturin.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/the-custodians-of-time/ This following is the Los Alamos National Laboratory report and video which confirms the Rogers' paper: “Analytical Results on Thread Samples Taken from the Raes Sampling Area (Corner) of the Shroud Cloth” (Aug 2008) Excerpt: The age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case....... LANL’s work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. - Robert Villarreal - Los Alamos National Laboratory http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/ Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned - Robert Villarreal - Press Release video http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=DPPWDPNXbornagain77
February 24, 2015
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"Jesus walking on water would be acceptable as ‘supernatural’ as would all of his other miracles" It's also part of the claim you're trying to prove in the first place. Circular logic. It's been shown that Da Vinci could've made the Shroud of Turin with knowledge and technology in his day. That along with the three independent 14C datings that put it in the middle ages doesn't fare well for the shroudCHartsil
February 23, 2015
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