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Is Richard Dawkins a stage magician?

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Richard Dawkins has a new book out soon; ‘The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution.’ An unfortunate title perhaps, bearing in mind the type of acts that have performed under that banner headline in the past. So is Dawkins no more than a travelling conjurer pulling bunnies out of hats in the name of science? Is his show cart of evolution just a charade of smoke and mirrors?

Let’s be frank, Dawkins is in reality more dangerous than a harmless travelling charlatan – the type of twisting rhetoric that Dawkins engages in is the type that leads to tyranny, not to respectful dialogue or family entertainment. He should be more careful, but he seems to have sacrificed his cares on some high alter; perhaps the million dollar book deals are clouding his judgment, but in reality his atheism leaves him unaccountable to anyone but himself or his atheist friends in the Royal Society. Yes, his rhetoric often appears to be as dangerous as that of the atheism of the twentieth century that led to fascist and communist regimes that abused human rights and led to the deaths of millions.

Dawkins is currently being serialised in The Times. A first article is Creationists, now they’re coming for your children.’ 24th August 2009 in which he makes unsubstantiated, fear-mongering statements and compare those who disagree with evolution to ‘Holocaust deniers.’ You only have to read some of the responses to his article to see the irrational fear that he has stirred up in people who claim to be acting purely in the name of reason. One wrote; “We must act now. Free people everywhere should unite and stamp out this menace” All in the name of reason of course.

How stupid is that? I won’t grace him with the platitude that he does not know what response his words have. He is too intelligent for that, but why is he doing it? Any belief on his part to moral superiority is pure fantasy.

I am sure Richard Dawkins is aware that Holocaust denial is illegal in some countries; perhaps it is his aim to make evolution denial illegal in those countries where there is a resistance to Darwinism. ‘If evolution cannot win in the market place of scientific ideas, then we’ll sure win in the courts once it is a mandated belief’ would appear to be the direction of his rhetoric. What is Dawkins afraid of? Can’t evolution hold its own in the science arena?   

Next Dawkins thinks he ought to tell the Vicars and Bishops how to preach. He notes of course that all the leading clerics accept evolution, as if the authority of theologians will establish a truth in science.

But what of Dawkins’ scientific smoke and mirrors?

Nowhere in this article does he seek to qualify what he means by evolution. Evolution is a fact he asserts, a statement that even Henry Morris would have agreed with in part, but what type of evolution is ‘fact’? Natural selection of pre existing genetic information does not explain causally where that genetic information came from. Dawkins peddles the simplification that the process that gave a dalmatian spots is the same process that turns a bacterium into an ostrich, or a fish into a hippo. But Dawkins knows that neo-Darwinism is more complicated than that. The problem for Dawkins is that belief in evolution is dependant upon such over simplifications, because if people really understood the complexity of organic life and what is being claimed then they would not accept unguided molecule to man evolution. In other words evolution is rejected because people understand it too well, not too poorly, and Dawkins has to keep to the simple text to keep the illusion going. 

So we may ask – why cannot Dawkins and others conduct the discussion of origins in a more rational manner without the type of smoke and mirrors and fear-mongering rhetoric that is being engaged in with his article? What is at stake really? Is it science or is it his atheism?

Comments
Dave, Do you consider the peppered moths to be conclusive proof of evolution? If so, Why? If not please give your most solid piece of evidence for evolution.bornagain77
August 25, 2009
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Question: Would the changes seen in the Peppered Moth in the wild have occurred faster under cumulative selection or single-step selection?Dave Wisker
August 25, 2009
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Matteo:
Theism stands up just fine on other grounds.
ID-style theism would thrive just fine even if godless evolution should win the culture war? On grounds of the inerrancy of the Bible?Cabal
August 25, 2009
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Art Hunt's example from plants is an example of genetic engineering. Neither random mutation nor natural selection had anything to do with it.Joseph
August 25, 2009
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Cumulative selection has never been observed to bring forth new protein machinery and new body plans. Nor has it been observed to bring forth regulatory networks. The mere existence of regulatory networks is evidence against non-telic evolution.Joseph
August 25, 2009
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Actually Dave the evidence supports terra-forming of the early earth: Interestingly, while the photo-synthetic bacteria were reducing greenhouse gases and producing oxygen, and metal, which would be of benefit to modern man, "sulfate-reducing" bacteria were also producing their own natural resources which would be very useful to modern man. Sulfate-reducing bacteria helped prepare the earth for advanced life by detoxifying the primeval earth and oceans of poisonous levels of heavy metals while depositing them as relatively inert metal ores. Metal ores which are very useful for modern man as well as fairly easy for man to extract today (mercury, cadmium, zinc, cobalt, arsenic, chromate, tellurium and copper to name a few). To this day, sulfate-reducing bacteria maintain an essential minimal level of these heavy metals in the ecosystem which are high enough so as to be available to the biological systems of the higher life forms that need them yet low enough so as not to be poisonous to those very same higher life forms. (Ross: Creation As Science) Bacterial Heavy Metal Detoxification and Resistance Systems: excerpt: Bacterial plasmids contain genetic determinants for resistance systems for Hg2+ (and organomercurials), Cd2+, AsO2, AsO43-, CrO4 2-, TeO3 2-, Cu2+, Ag+, Co2+, Pb2+, and other metals of environmental concern. http://www.springerlink.com/content/u1t281704577v8t3/ http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/26/m026p203.pdf The role of bacteria in hydrogeochemistry, metal cycling and ore deposit formation: Textures of sulfide minerals formed by SRB (sulfate-reducing bacteria) during bioremediation (most notably pyrite and sphalerite) have textures reminiscent of those in certain sediment-hosted ores, supporting the concept that SRB may have been directly involved in forming ore minerals. http://www.goldschmidt2009.org/abstracts/finalPDFs/A1161.pdf Transitional Metals And Cytochrome C oxidase - Michael Denton - Nature's Destiny http://books.google.com/books?id=CdYpDRY0Z6oC&pg=PA203&lpg As well, geological processes helped detoxify the earth The Concentration of Metals for Humanity's Benefit: Excerpt: They demonstrated that hydrothermal fluid flow could enrich the concentration of metals like zinc, lead, and copper by at least a factor of a thousand. They also showed that ore deposits formed by hydrothermal fluid flows at or above these concentration levels exist throughout Earth's crust. The necessary just-right precipitation conditions needed to yield such high concentrations demand extraordinary fine-tuning. That such ore deposits are common in Earth's crust strongly suggests supernatural design. http://www.reasons.org/TheConcentrationofMetalsforHumanitysBenefit And on top of the fact that poisonous heavy metals on the primordial earth were brought into "life-enabling" balance by complex biogeochemical processes, there was also an explosion of minerals on earth which were a result of that first life, as well as being a result of each subsequent "big bang" of life there afterwards. The Creation of Minerals: Excerpt: Thanks to the way life was introduced on Earth, the early 250 mineral species have exploded to the present 4,300 known mineral species. And because of this abundance, humans possessed all the necessary mineral resources to easily launch and sustain global, high-technology civilization. http://www.reasons.org/The-Creation-of-Minerals To put it mildly, this minimization of poisonous elements, and maximization on useful minerals, is strong evidence for Intelligently Designed terra-forming of the earth that "just so happens" to be of great benefit to modern man.bornagain77
August 25, 2009
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Dave listed: Erwin, DH (1999). The origin of bodyplans. Amer.Zool. 39: 617-639; Excerpt: The breadth of this event is now well documented among soft-bodied, skeletonized and trace fossils. Dave Please list pictures of, or lab work verifying, suggested transition actually occurred: Both the oldest Stromatolite fossils, and the oldest bacterium fossils, found on earth demonstrate an extreme conservation of morphology which, very contrary to evolutionary thought, simply means they look very similar to Stromatolites and bacteria of today. AMBER: THE LOOKING GLASS INTO THE PAST: Excerpt: These (fossilized bacteria) cells are actually very similar to present day cyanobacteria. This is not only true for an isolated case but many living genera of cyanobacteria can be linked to fossil cyanobacteria. The detail noted in the fossils of this group gives indication of extreme conservation of morphology, more extreme than in other organisms. http://bcb705.blogspot.com/2007/03/amber-looking-glass-into-past_23.html Bacteria: Fossil Record - Ancient Compared to Modern - Picture http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/bacteriafr.html Shark's Bay - Modern Stromatolites - Pictures http://seapics.com/feature-subject/marine-invertebrates/stromatolite-pictures.html Ancient Stromatalites - Pictures http://microbes.arc.nasa.gov/about/stromatolites.htmlbornagain77
August 25, 2009
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Are Your hurt feelings better now Dave? Just to pick one statement you made: You have for example, asked about the origin of insect wings, and ignored my response to you about it. So why can we not evolve fruit flies into "better" fruit flies now? ...Advantageous anatomical mutations are never observed. The four-winged fruit fly is a case in point: The second set of wings lacks flight muscles, so the useless appendages interfere with flying and mating, and the mutant fly cannot survive long outside the laboratory. Similar mutations in other genes also produce various anatomical deformations, but they are harmful, too. In 1963, Harvard evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr wrote that the resulting mutants “are such evident freaks that these monsters can be designated only as ‘hopeless.’ They are so utterly unbalanced that they would not have the slightest chance of escaping elimination through natural selection." - Jonathan Wells http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/08/inherit_the_spin_the_ncse_answ.html#footnote19 Darwin's Theory - Fruit Flies and Morphology - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZJTIwRY0bs Dave why is as far back we go in the fossil record the wings are already there? 1000's of pictures of ancient "living" fossils that have not changed for millions of years: http://www.fossil-museum.com/fossils/?page=0&limit=30 Dave please do feel free to list pictures of fossilized transition from non-winged insects to winged insects! Do you have any examples of increased complexity leading towards speciation Dave? "The closest science has come to observing and recording actual speciation in animals is the work of Theodosius Dobzhansky in Drosophilia paulistorium fruit flies. But even here, only reproductive isolation, not a new species, appeared." from page 32 "Acquiring Genomes" Lynn Margulis. At one of her many public talks, she [Lynn Margulis] asks the molecular biologists in the audience to name a single unambiguous example of the formation of a new species by the accumulation of mutations. Her challenge goes unmet. Michael Behe - Darwin's Black Box - Page 26 Natural Selection and Evolution's Smoking Gun, - American Scientist - 1997 “A matter of unfinished business for biologists is the identification of evolution's smoking gun,”... “the smoking gun of evolution is speciation, not local adaptation and differentiation of populations.” Keith Stewart Thomson - evolutionary biologist Selection and Speciation: Why Darwinism Is False - Jonathan Wells: Excerpt: there are observed instances of secondary speciation — which is not what Darwinism needs — but no observed instances of primary speciation, not even in bacteria. British bacteriologist Alan H. Linton looked for confirmed reports of primary speciation and concluded in 2001: “None exists in the literature claiming that one species has been shown to evolve into another. Bacteria, the simplest form of independent life, are ideal for this kind of study, with generation times of twenty to thirty minutes, and populations achieved after eighteen hours. But throughout 150 years of the science of bacteriology, there is no evidence that one species of bacteria has changed into another.” http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/selection_and_speciation_why_d.html Why is this evidence ignored by you Dave? Please feel free to explain the stasis in clear detail so all us IDers can be refuted...I guarantee you I will listen to any solid evidence you can produce and will expose your bluff on all conjecture you put forth!bornagain77
August 25, 2009
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Jerry, But contrary to this, there is no naturalistic mechanism especially Darwinian processes that explains the origin of phyla I take it you are unaware of the work of Doug Erwin? Erwin, DH (1999). The origin of bodyplans. Amer.Zool. 39: 617-639Dave Wisker
August 25, 2009
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jerry, You would think that the big deal that Dawkins made of this concept that somewhere there would be examples of substance. Dawkins didn't make a big deal of the concept, other than to show how cumulative selection has an advantage over single-step selection, and that living things don't use single-step selection. It's creationists and IDers who have, willfully or not, completely misrepresented Dawkins point and have almost made careers out of recycling that misunderstanding in books and articles. Since cumulative selection is what occurs in the wild, what you are asking for really has nothing to do with cumulative selection per se, as I pointed out, and everything to do with what you brought up yourself that you considered non-trivial, which are merely rehashings of what you have brought up elsewhere on this board and ignored the responses. You have for example, asked about the origin of insect wings, and ignored my response to you about it. Why should I even be interested in citing this example again to you, given your previous track record? Art Hunt gave examples from plants, to which you pleaded ignorance about botany, which is fine, but they are examples nonetheless. All are examples of cumulative selection, since that is what is the paradigm for living things in the wild. So for you to stand there and claim evolutionary biologists don't present examples to your requests is just plain chutzpah.Dave Wisker
August 25, 2009
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"You’d be better off focusing on things that are actually worth focusing on, like how the eukaryotic genome came to have the architecture it does, or why Australia has no native placental mammals, or why we find seashell fossils on mountain tops, or how phyla originate. Surely these are more interesting subjects than the difference between single-step selection and cumulative selection." None of these are of any issue for ID since none of these examples point to any naturalistic mechanism except for the obvious one of seashells. Even if the others did point to a mechanism, ID does not have problems with naturalistic processes which can be validated. For example, the appearance of seashells on mountain tops is consistent with plate tectonics. No big deal. But contrary to this, there is no naturalistic mechanism especially Darwinian processes that explains the origin of phyla . It is easily explained by ID but the origin of phyla does not have to be an instance of agency for ID to be valid and if a valid and supported process was determined then ID would accept it. But as of this moment it does not exist.jerry
August 24, 2009
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I asked for an example of cumulative selection and what I received for an answer was not how a certain quality appeared over time by an accumulation of changes. What I received was any change from one generation to the next is cumulative selection. You would think that the big deal that Dawkins made of this concept that somewhere there would be examples of substance. I have yet to receive such examples so I can only conclude they don't exist and the concept is essentially meaningless in the evolution debate. If people had some they would only be too eager to give them. Now the examples should not be trivial examples. A trivial example would be something like a change in beak size which is not anything new but just a temporary change in the frequency of some alleles and something that could revert in a few generations or more. Also trivial and may not be accumulation are deteriorations or reductions in the gene pool. For example it is possible to loose something over time through something such as genetic drift and my understanding of accumulation is that this is lost and not gains. So we have a process in the wild where by the gene pool declines. Now if one want to call this cumulative, then so be it but it does not explain anything of substance. I though I asked for examples that would indicate that this concept of cumulative selection led to something of substance. So I don't see anything so I assume the process is either bogus or trivial. If one wants to hang their hat on such a concept, then to me this is a victory for the ID position.jerry
August 24, 2009
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Gil, I'm afraid cumulative selection works exactly as Dawkins described it. And it is demonstrably better than single step selection, which was the only point Dawkins was making with the WEASEL program. Dawkins is also correct that living things employ cumulative selection in nature. I can't think of a single example in the wild that doesn't. Jerry unwittingly admitted the truth of the matter: its a trivial point. Yes, it's trivial because natural selection is cumulative selection in the wild, and even in the lab unless extraordinary measures (like replacing survivors with a fresh generation for the next round)are taken to change it. Jerry seems to want an example that isn't trivial. But if natural selection in the wild is cumulative selection (and it is), then one has to wonder exactly what jerry means by 'trivial' Does he mean he wants an example of rapid or dramatic response to selection, as opposed to some long,drawn-out, gradual example? Or maybe what he means by trivial is adaptation of low relative complexity? In either case then, he is concerned not with cumulative selection, per se, but in something else, strength of selection, or generation of variation, perhaps. So dwelling on the definition of cumulative selection and Dawkins's little program demonstrating it is a ridiculously trivial pursuit. Yet almost every Id proponent in the known universe seems obsessed with it. You'd be better off focusing on things that are actually worth focusing on, like how the eukaryotic genome came to have the architecture it does, or why Australia has no native placental mammals, or why we find seashell fossils on mountain tops, or how phyla originate. Surely these are more interesting subjects than the difference between single-step selection and cumulative selection.Dave Wisker
August 24, 2009
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Gil:
Very nice, but this is just storytelling without any of the critically essential details.
Dawkins' level of detail in TBW is certainly pathetic. If ID were tasked with matching it, I'm sure it could do so easily.R0b
August 24, 2009
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The end-product of one genration [sic] of selection is the starting point for the next generation of selection, and so on for many generations. Very nice, but this is just storytelling without any of the critically essential details. Science requires hard analysis: 1) Which mutations would produce the intermediate steps, and by what mechanism would this be accomplished? 2) What is the probability that this could occur? 3) What would be the naturally-selectable advantage at each step? 4) Would there be sufficient reproductive events in the time allowed (the probabilistic resources) to fix the mutation in the population? 5) How many of the beneficial mutations would not be passed on as a result of the vagaries of life (disease, predators, accidents, etc.)? Without these questions being answered with some hard and empirically verified analysis -- of course, Dawkins never asks these questions, and therefore makes no attempt to answer them -- Dawkins' assertion in your quote cannot be assumed to be anything other than pure, unsubstantiated speculation designed to support a conclusion that was reached in advance, based on a philosophical predisposition. Keep in mind that I'm not talking about trivial examples like antibiotic resistance and finch beak variation, but the grand claim that this can be extrapolated to explain everything in biology, including the information-processing machinery of the cell and the human mind.GilDodgen
August 24, 2009
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Obviously I assumed wrong.Dave Wisker
August 24, 2009
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"I’m trying to treat you like an intellectual adult, one who presumably can take the concept and take it to its logical conclusions." I did take it to its logical conclusion and that is there are no examples except trivial ones. You essentially said that any change is accumulation and you also said you do not have any examples of consequence. So be it. That is the ID position and I said you confirmed it yesterday to which you said you didn't care. Well thank you for making the ID position and along the way you said Dawkins has no examples of consequence or else why not cite them. This thread is about Dawkins. You are just confirming what we already know.jerry
August 24, 2009
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jerry, asked you for examples of cumulative evolution yesterday and you essentially punted Punted? How so? I pointed out that any example of natural selection in the wild, where the survivors of one round of selection are the source for the next generation is one of cumulative selection. Must I now spoon feed you a specific example, as if you have no idea of examples where this is so? Frankly, I assumed you have SOME knowledge of studies of natural selection in the wild (I can't imagine anyone involved in the evolution/ID debate who cannot think of at least ONE). Maybe an example of non-cumulative selection would help: one where the entire population is entirely refreshed entirely refreshed with individuals who were not involved in the previous round of selection would fit that criteria (i.e, 'single-step' selection, to use Dawkins's term). Perhaps you have never read The Blind Watchmaker. Dawkins explicitly defines cumulative selection on page 45:
The essential difference between single-step selection and cumulative selection is this. In single-step selection the entities selected or sorted, pebbles or whateverthay are, are sorted once and for all. In cumulative slelection, on the other hand, they 'reproduce'; or in some other way the results of one sieving process are fed into a subsequent sieving, which is fed into into...and so on. The entities are subjected to selection or sorting over many 'generations' in succession. The end-product of one genration of selection is the starting point for the next generation of selection, and so on for many generations. (my emphasis)
Dawkins goes on to add this:
i>It is natural to borrow such words as 'reproduce' and 'generation', which have associations with living things, because living things are the main examples we know of thaings that participate in cumulative selection
So do you see now why I answered the way I did? Far from punting, I'm trying to treat you like an intellectual adult, one who presumably can take the concept and take it to its logical conclusions. I'm assuming you have read the book and/or understand the concept well enough to discuss it intelligently, and thus can take the simple definition I provided and apply it on your own.Dave Wisker
August 24, 2009
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Dawkins is a tormented soul. He's smart enough to recognize the ultimately nihilistic implications of his philosophy. (No, it's not science, but a desperate attempt to cram the evidence into a conclusion that was reached in advance.) I recognized the nihilistic implications of his philosophy (with which I was raised) when I was seven years old, but assumed that the "scientists" had it all figured out and that they were right. I lived with this nihilism, in a Dawkins-style state of torment, and put my faith in the "fact" that scientists had it all figured out, until I finally realized that the "scientists" didn't have the goods to support their claims that the debate was over. The debate was not over. Tormented souls desire to drag others down into their torment so they will have company. I was once such a person. It takes one to know one.GilDodgen
August 24, 2009
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‘If evolution cannot win in the market place of scientific ideas, then we’ll sure win in the courts once it is a mandated belief’ would appear to be the direction of his rhetoric.
Refresh my memory, which side has tried to "Wedge" itself into school science classrooms, tried to get itself mandated by law in compliant state legislatures and failed miserably in every court case it has ever been involved in and which side is the dominant scientific theory in biology?
In other words evolution is rejected because people understand it too well, not too poorly, and Dawkins has to keep to the simple text to keep the illusion going.
So what you're saying is that the vast majority of professional biologists who have spent their entire careers studying it simply don't understand evolution at all, that they should kneel humbly at the feet of all the engineers, mathematicians, lawyers, philosophers, and veterinarians who understand it so much better than they do and pay heed to their lofty wisdom?Seversky
August 24, 2009
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Andrew, When you write: in which he makes unsubstantiated, fear-mongering statements and compare those who disagree with evolution to ‘Holocaust deniers.’ You only have to read some of the responses to his article to see the irrational fear I have to agree. Pieces like this add nothing to the debate and only stir up pointless bickering. This reminds me of another quote in the same vein. This one was coming from the opposite side and was just as ridiculously hyperbolic. Actually, I would say even more so. The author was writing about Dawkins and said: his rhetoric often appears to be as dangerous as that of the atheism of the twentieth century that led to fascist and communist regimes that abused human rights and led to the deaths of millions. This is exactly the kind of thing we could do without.Winston Macchi
August 24, 2009
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Dawkins has said that "Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist." Now, I'm a big, big fan of Intelligent Design and all, but I have never asserted, and have never heard anyone assert that "Intelligent Design makes it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled theist." Theism stands up just fine on other grounds. So, according to Dawkins, the outcome of this scientific debate is crucial to his worldview (that is, unless atheists are to be intellectually unfulfilled). It isn't to mine. So who is more likely to be wearing the bias goggles? I'd say it's the atheists, and by a mile. And all according to the testimony of one of their chief spokesmen and heroes, in one of his most famous utterances.Matteo
August 24, 2009
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Dave, To be honest with you,,I have debated atheists for several years now,,,I usually have been polite to the point of fault,,, in return I have for the majority of times been maligned, cussed, ridiculed, threatened with death and all sorts of evil response,,,all for sticking to the truth of the evidence and proving evolution wrong with the best of what ability I have been given,,,Though you may take me for being rude with you, I am actually trying my very best to wake you from the deception you are in,,, for I figure a few hurt feelings by you now will be far better than the consequences of being separated from God eternally,,,Maybe I am wrong to be this way with you,,,every one is different,,,but truly I am not meaning it personally,,,bornagain77
August 24, 2009
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"Hmm. So nobody has ever mentioned Theodosius Dobzhansky’s Genetics of the Evolutionary Process, or George Williams’s Adaptation and Natural Slelection before?" No they haven't and my guess is that they do not have anything of note just as no other book has anything of note. I asked you for examples of cumulative evolution yesterday and you essentially punted. So no, no one has ever been able to defend naturalistic evolution that I have ever seen. Amazing phenomena. We will have to see how Sir Richard handles it. Will he put on his Mickey Mouse ears and wave a magic wand. I always love it when those trained in evolutionary biology don't have anything they can defend. What is in the water they drink?jerry
August 24, 2009
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"Hey Jerry, you might try a little book called Origin of the Species. A little dated, but it’s a good introduction to beginners." There is no evidence for naturalistic evolution in the Origin of Species. It is all about artificial selection. Very much intelligently designed. As I said no coherent defense of naturalistic evolution. If any of these books mentioned had anything of substance, they would be repeated over and over again here. By the way when we say things like this we mean macro evolution not the trivial micro evolution which we all agree on.jerry
August 24, 2009
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You want to defend short term? I got you there to!bornagain77
August 24, 2009
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And of course this: Both the oldest Stromatolite fossils, and the oldest bacterium fossils, found on earth demonstrate an extreme conservation of morphology which, very contrary to evolutionary thought, simply means they look very similar to Stromatolites and bacteria of today. AMBER: THE LOOKING GLASS INTO THE PAST: Excerpt: These (fossilized bacteria) cells are actually very similar to present day cyanobacteria. This is not only true for an isolated case but many living genera of cyanobacteria can be linked to fossil cyanobacteria. The detail noted in the fossils of this group gives indication of extreme conservation of morphology, more extreme than in other organisms. http://bcb705.blogspot.com/2007/03/amber-looking-glass-into-past_23.html Bacteria: Fossil Record - Ancient Compared to Modern - Picture http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/bacteriafr.html Shark's Bay - Modern Stromatolites - Pictures http://seapics.com/feature-subject/marine-invertebrates/stromatolite-pictures.html Ancient Stromatalites - Pictures http://microbes.arc.nasa.gov/about/stromatolites.htmlbornagain77
August 24, 2009
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Long term,,,Yes, there are many ancient bacterium recovered and "revived" from salt crystals and amber crystals which have been compared to their living descendants of today. Some bacterium spores, in salt crystals, dating back as far as 250 million years have been revived, had their DNA sequenced, and compared to their offspring of today (Vreeland RH, 2000 Nature). To the disbelieving shock of many scientists, both ancient and modern bacteria were found to have the almost same exact DNA sequence. The Paradox of the "Ancient" Bacterium Which Contains "Modern" Protein-Coding Genes: “Almost without exception, bacteria isolated from ancient material have proven to closely resemble modern bacteria at both morphological and molecular levels.” Heather Maughan*, C. William Birky Jr., Wayne L. Nicholson, William D. Rosenzweig§ and Russell H. Vreeland ; http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/9/1637 and this: Revival and identification of bacterial spores in 25- to 40-million-year-old Dominican amber Dr. Cano and his former graduate student Dr. Monica K. Borucki said that they had found slight but significant differences between the DNA of the ancient, 25-40 million year old amber-sealed Bacillus sphaericus and that of its modern counterpart, (thus ruling out that it is a modern contaminant, yet at the same time confounding materialists, since the change is not nearly as great as evolution's "genetic drift" theory requires.) http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/268/5213/1060 30-Million-Year Sleep: Germ Is Declared Alive http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CEFD61439F93AA25756C0A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2 In reply to a personal e-mail from myself, Dr. Cano commented on the "Fitness Test" I had asked him about: Dr. Cano stated: "We performed such a test, a long time ago, using a panel of substrates (the old gram positive biolog panel) on B. sphaericus. From the results we surmised that the putative "ancient" B. sphaericus isolate was capable of utilizing a broader scope of substrates. Additionally, we looked at the fatty acid profile and here, again, the profiles were similar but more diverse in the amber isolate.": Fitness test which compared the 30 million year old ancient bacteria to its modern day descendants, RJ Cano and MK Borucki Thus, the most solid evidence available for the most ancient DNA scientists are able to find does not support evolution happening on the molecular level of bacteria. In fact, according to the fitness test of Dr. Cano, the change witnessed in bacteria conforms to the exact opposite, Genetic Entropy; a loss of functional information/complexity, since fewer substrates and fatty acids are utilized by the modern strains. Considering the intricate level of protein machinery it takes to utilize individual molecules within a substrate, we are talking an impressive loss of protein complexity, and thus loss of functional information, from the ancient amber sealed bacteria.bornagain77
August 24, 2009
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Hey Skew,,, I am a Christian in a Christian Nation!,,, Your the one who is out of place!!!!! How bout you putting you best evidence for evolution forward and see how it stands to scrutiny!!!! I'll kill two birds with one stone!bornagain77
August 24, 2009
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Dave, Ok Dave I'll play nice,,,PLEEEEASE back up your claims for evolution with a little evidence,,,so as I can expose you for the fraud you are!bornagain77
August 24, 2009
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