Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Is this “religion”?

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Further to the Discovery Institute’s recent letter to BSU President Dr. Jo Ann Gora (pictured above), protesting the university’s “violation of academic freedom with regard to faculty discussions of intelligent design,” I’d like to ask readers what they think of the following passages, which are taken from a leading best-seller written by a prominent evolutionary biologist, in defense of Darwinian evolution:

Natural selection is not a master engineer, but a tinkerer. It doesn’t produce the absolute perfection achievable by a designer starting from scratch, but merely the best it can do with what it has to work with. (p. 12)

A conscientious designer might have given the turtles an extra pair of limbs, with retractable shovel-like appendages, but turtles, like all reptiles, are stuck with a developmental plan that limits their limbs to four. (p. 13)

We men, for example, would be better off if our testes formed directly outside the body, where the cooler temperature is better for sperm. The testes, however, begin development in the abdomen. When the fetus is six or seven months old, they migrate down into the scrotum through two channels called the inguinal canals, removing them from the damaging heat of the rest of the body. Those canals leave weak spots in the body wall that make men prone to inguinal hernias. These hernias are bad: they can obstruct the intestine, and sometimes caused death in the years before surgery. No intelligent designer would have given us this tortuous testicular journey. (p. 13)

There is no reason why a celestial designer, fashioning organisms from scratch like an architect designs buildings, should make new species by remodeling the features of existing ones. Each species could be constructed from the ground up. (p. 57)

What I mean by “bad design” is the notion that if organisms were
built from scratch by a designer — one who used the biological building blocks of nerves, muscles, bone, and so on—they would not have such imperfections. Perfect design would truly be the sign of a skilled and intelligent designer. Imperfect design is the mark of evolution; in fact it’s precisely what we expect from evolution. (p. 86)

A smart designer wouldn’t put a collapsible tube through an organ prone to infection and swelling. (p. 90)

And would an intelligent designer have created the small gap between the human ovary and Fallopian tube, so that an egg must cross this gap before it can travel though the tube and implant in the uterus? (p. 90)

Some creationists respond that poor design is not an argument for
evolution — that a supernatural intelligent designer could nevertheless have created imperfect features.
In his book Darwin’s Black Box, the ID proponent Michael Behe claims that “features that strike us as odd in a design might have been placed there by the Designer for a reason — for artistic reasons, for variety, to show off, for some as-yet-undetectable practical purpose, or for some unguessable reason — or they might not.” But this misses the point. Yes, a designer may have motives that are unfathomable. But the particular bad designs that we see make sense only if they evolved from features of earlier ancestors. If a designer did have discernible motives when creating species, one of them must surely have been to fool biologists by making organisms look as though they evolved. (p. 91)

Since ID itself makes no testable scientific claims, but offers only halfbaked criticisms of Darwinism, its credibility slowly melts away with each advance in our understanding. Furthermore, ID’s own explanation for complex features — the whim of a supernatural designer — can explain any conceivable observation about nature. It may even have been the creator’s whim to make life look as though it evolved (apparently many creationists believe this, though few admit it). But if you can’t think of an observation that could disprove a theory, that theory simply isn’t scientific. (p. 149)

Before Darwin, sexual dimorphism was a mystery. Creationists then — as now — could not explain why a supernatural designer should produce features in one sex, and only one sex, that harms its survival. As the great explainer of nature’s diversity, Darwin was naturally anxious to understand how these seemingly pointless traits evolved. He finally noticed the key to their explanation: if traits differ between males and females of a species, the elaborate behaviors, structures, and ornaments are nearly always restricted to males. (p. 161)

The author of the best-selling book on evolution has also written gloatingly of a reader’s successful efforts to get Amazon Canada to move Dr. Stephen Meyer’s book, Darwin’s Doubt, from the science section to the religion section. According to this author, Meyer’s book is “not science,” but “god-of-the-gaps natural theology.”

I haven’t yet read Darwin’s Doubt, although it’s high on my shopping list. However, the point I’d like to make here is that if arguing for an Intelligent Designer on the basis of empirical evidence is not science but “natural theology,” then by the same token, arguing against an Intelligent Designer on the basis of empirical evidence is not science but “natural anti-theology,” if you like. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

The author in question is, of course, Professor Jerry Coyne, and the quotes cited above were taken from his best-seller, Why Evolution is True (Oxford University Press, 2009).

Here’s my point. Professor Coyne’s book is widely used on American college campuses in science classrooms, as the following quote by a (mostly friendly but occasionally critical) non-religious reviewer illustrates:

Most of the courses you take in college solely use textbooks for content and assignments. When I was a teaching assistant for a Duke genetics class, the professors also assigned the non-fiction book Why Evolution Is True by Jerry A. Coyne. During the evolution part of the course, students were assigned chapters in the book to read as homework. In class discussions would then focus on what Coyne discussed in each chapter, giving the students and professors a springboard to starting a conversation on what evolution is and what is the evidence for it.

The President of Ball State University, Dr. Jo Ann Gora, has recently banned discussions of intelligent design in BSU science classes, on the grounds that it is a religious idea. But if the arguments for Intelligent Design are by their very nature religious, then surely arguments such as those which appear in Professor Coyne’s book, Why Evolution Is True, criticizing Intelligent Design by appealing to considerations relating to what an Intelligent Designer would and wouldn’t do, are equally religious in nature, and should be banned from BSU science classrooms. In that case, will President Jo Ann Gora issue a directive banning the use of Why Evolution Is True as a science textbook at BSU? And will other books of a similar ilk be similarly banned? Come to think of it, what about banning Darwin’s Origin of Species, too, as it repeatedly makes arguments of the kind put forward by Coyne in his book?

Personally, I’m all for free discussion of issues relating to origins. I think that anti-design arguments (such as those put forward in Coyne’s book) should be taken seriously and debated freely in science classes, and I also believe that the Intelligent Design should be treated as a scientific hypothesis – particularly in view of Professor Jerry Coyne’s admission, in a November 8, 2010 post entitled, Shermer and I disagree on the supernatural, that science is not committed to methodological naturalism and that in principle, there could be scientific evidence for God. Given such an admission, it is hard to understand Coyne’s applauding of recent efforts to have Dr. Stephen Meyer’s book, Darwin’s Doubt, moved out of the science section at Amazon Canada.

It will be interesting to see how (and whether) BSU President Jo Ann Gora responds to the Discovery Institute’s September 10 letter in protest against her recent efforts to censor speech by BSU faculty members who support intelligent design – a letter which Professor Coyne has already commented on. One thing I do know: President Gora has painted herself into a corner. If Intelligent Design is “natural theology,” then so are Darwinistic arguments that ridicule it, by appealing to what a truly intelligent Designer would and wouldn’t do.

And now, over to my readers. What do you think?

Comments
Alan Fox:
You don’t think airplanes have changed over time, based on the experience of what went before?
They change by design. Natural selection and other mindless processes have nothing to do with it. And perhaps you should look up "environmental design"- it isn't what you think it is. Joe
Yeah, my other question AVS, is: what's your real name so I can Google the papers you contributed to? Barb
Oops Aerial not Airial Alan Fox
Clearly, the Wright Flyer was not designed. It should have used ailerons instead of wing warping for roll control, should have been made from aluminum and titanium instead of wood and fabric to maximize strength-to-weight ratio, and the canard should have been replaced with a tail section incorporating a rudder, vertical stabilizer, elevator, and horizontal stabilizer. Anyone who knows anything about basic aircraft design can easily see that the Wright Flyer could not possibly be the product of intelligent design, but must have come about as the result of random tinkering by purely materialistic forces, with no goal or purpose in mind.
You don't think airplanes have changed over time, based on the experience of what went before? A process of "try something and if it doesn't work, try something else"? A sort of environmental design. Try to make something fly out of available materials that will carry someone aloft into the airial environment and you are constrained in all sorts of ways, weight, strength, control, power to get off the ground. But the plane designer who can think of everything and produce the perfect design from scratch without the feedback of testing? That human designer is yet to be found. BTW, Gil, do you still manage to go hang-gliding? Alan Fox
BINGO for my iD friends. Exactly the right equation. If ID/creationism is banned because it touches on conclusions advocated also by religious faiths THEN teaching ideas from religious faiths , like a creator, as false or unlikely MUST also be banned. Reaching there ain't a creator is the opposite of teaching there IS a creator. Is the university neutral? on the conclusion! IF you can't teach there IS a creator HOW can you teach there ISN'T??? If there is a general law against teaching about God?! I think this is a chance for creationists everywhere to attack a loudmouth woman in charge of a institution built by the people. Robert Byers
The issue in question is not the dychotpmy of naturalism-supernaturalism but rather the technological merit of the proposal. You don't validate a principle formed in a paper with another paper. You validate it with a technological brakethrough derived from your findings. Loghin
Clearly, the Wright Flyer was not designed. It should have used ailerons instead of wing warping for roll control, should have been made from aluminum and titanium instead of wood and fabric to maximize strength-to-weight ratio, and the canard should have been replaced with a tail section incorporating a rudder, vertical stabilizer, elevator, and horizontal stabilizer. Anyone who knows anything about basic aircraft design can easily see that the Wright Flyer could not possibly be the product of intelligent design, but must have come about as the result of random tinkering by purely materialistic forces, with no goal or purpose in mind. GilDodgen
AVS:
If you’d like to know what makes an organism what it is, take a developmental biology course.
Which developmental biology course best describes what makes a single-celled organism what it is? AVS:
I can walk you through some off it, but I’m afraid I would lose you in just talking about the basics.
Yeah, we'd be lost at zygote! Mung
AVS, No one knows what makes an organism what it is. You are full of shit. BTW, Sean B Carroll is a developmental biologist. Joe
It's an accredited and highly ranked university in the Northeast US. Molecular and Cell Biology, yes, yes and I have my name on a couple papers actually although I am certainly not the PI of my lab. Any other questions? AVS
AVS: Kindly show proof of your knowledge of biology. Where's your degree from, and in what field of biology (or just biology in general)? Honors student? Dean's list? Published papers? No to any of the above questions gets you sent back under your bridge. Barb
How dumb are you? Read a book on developmental biology, or just general biology that's a good start. AVS
AVS:
If you’d like to know what makes an organism what it is, take a developmental biology course.
I have read SB Carroll's "Making of the Fittest" and "Endless Forms.." and he doesn't know. I read Shubin's "Your Inner Fish" and he doesn't know. So consider your bluff called. Joe
Ah yes, dont feed the troll. I find it funny that the people here with real knowledge of the field of biology are considered trolls, it speaks volumes for this site. AVS
Joe @ 50: Don't feed the troll. Barb
That lovely piece of fiction would only be useful if I ran out of toiletpaper. If you'd like to know what makes an organism what it is, take a developmental biology course. I can walk you through some off it, but I'm afraid I would lose you in just talking about the basics. AVS
AVS, please read "Why Is A Fly Not A Horse?" and stop being such an ignorant ass. But please, do go ahead and educate me, and geneticist Giuseppe Sermonti- the author of that book by referencing some biology book or paper that tells us what makes an organism what it is. And another geneticist says:
To understand the challenge to the “superwatch” model by the erosion of the gene-centric view of nature, it is necessary to recall August Weismann’s seminal insight more than a century ago regarding the need for genetic determinants to specify organic form. As Weismann saw so clearly, in order to account for the unerring transmission through time with precise reduplication, for each generation of “complex contingent assemblages of matter” (superwatches), it is necessary to propose the existence of stable abstract genetic blueprints or programs in the genes- he called them “determinants”- sequestered safely in the germ plasm, away from the ever varying and destabilizing influences of the extra-genetic environment. Such carefully isolated determinants would theoretically be capable of reliably transmitting contingent order through time and specifying it reliably each generation. Thus, the modern “gene-centric” view of life was born, and with it the heroic twentieth century effort to identify Weismann’s determinants, supposed to be capable of reliably specifying in precise detail all the contingent order of the phenotype. Weismann was correct in this: the contingent view of form and indeed the entire mechanistic conception of life- the superwatch model- is critically dependent on showing that all or at least the vast majority of organic form is specified in precise detail in the genes. Yet by the late 1980s it was becoming obvious to most genetic researchers, including myself, since my own main research interest in the ‘80s and ‘90s was human genetics, that the heroic effort to find information specifying life’s order in the genes had failed. There was no longer the slightest justification for believing there exists anything in the genome remotely resembling a program capable of specifying in detail all the complex order of the phenotype. The emerging picture made it increasingly difficult to see genes as Weismann’s “unambiguous bearers of information” or view them as the sole source of the durability and stability of organic form. It is true that genes influence every aspect of development, but influencing something is not the same as determining it. Only a small fraction of all known genes, such as the developmental fate switching genes, can be imputed to have any sort of directing or controlling influence on form generation. From being “isolated directors” of a one-way game of life, genes are now considered to be interactive players in a dynamic two-way dance of almost unfathomable complexity, as described by Keller in The Century of The Gene. Dr Denton
Joe
"We have no idea what makes an organism what it is"? Spoken like a true scientifically illiterate fool who never bothered to open their biology book. AVS
Mung:
But to what end? What is the purpose of these attempts to create models and fit the model to the data? Just something to pass the time? An attempt to think God’s thoughts after him?
Neither. Try harder. Daniel King
The 2004 Encyclopedia Britannica says science is “any system of knowledge that is concerned with the physical world and its phenomena and that entails unbiased observations and systematic experimentation. In general, a science involves a pursuit of knowledge covering general truths or the operations of fundamental laws.” “A healthy science is a science that seeks the truth.” Paul Nelson, Ph. D., philosophy of biology. Linus Pauling, winner of 2 Nobel prizes wrote, “Science is the search for the truth.” “But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding.” Albert Einstein The truth need not be an absolute truth. Truth in the sense that Drs. Pauling, Einstein & Nelson are speaking is the reality in which we find ourselves. We exist. Science is to help us understand that existence and how it came to be. As I like to say- science is our search for the truth, i.e. the reality, to our existence and the existence of whatever is being investigated, via our never-ending quest for knowledge. Joe
wd400:
It is easy to imagine data that, if they were true, would count as evidence against common descent.
Universal common descent is based on imagination, so I can see why imagination could falsify it. However the point still stands- there isn't any way to test it because we have no idea what makes an organism what it is- see "Why Is A Fly Not A Horse?"
What data would count against (common) design?
Well common design requires some level of similarity. Cars and PCs are great examples of a common design. So if there wasn't anything in common then that would count against a common design. As for counting against design, just show that nature, operating freely is all that is required. Joe
Elizabeth Liddle:
No, I don’t think epistemology is “knowledge stopped at the 16th century. I just meant that the idea that science is the fitting of models to data has been around for a very long time. It’s not some “trendy” new thing. Kepler was one of the first to do this spectacularly.
But to what end? What is the purpose of these attempts to create models and fit the model to the data? Just something to pass the time? An attempt to think God's thoughts after him? Mung
sigaba:
If I may, models are axiomatic to the program.
But is the requirement that the models reflect reality axiomatic to the program? Mung
Elizabeth Liddle:
I don’t think science is primarily about “the accumulation of knowledge”, and I think that a great deal of misunderstanding of scientific claims starts here. People think that “learning science” is learning a lot of facts, and that they shouldn’t have to have wrong, unproven, “facts” pushed into them by Darwinists.
Well, that's because you misconstrue both science and knowledge. Science is not about the accumulation of facts, and neither is knowledge the accumulation of facts. Mung
BTW Lizzie, the same type of tests for universal common descent can be used to support a common design. It is easy to imagine data that, if they were true, would count as evidence against common descent. What data would count against (common) design? wd400
BTW Lizzie, the same type of tests for universal common descent can be used to support a common design. So by your logic a common design model is scientific. Thank you. Joe
It is, actually
Saying something is something do not seems scientific to me.
Both those models have equations
Could you enlight me with the parameters of the equation of CD and OOL? Thanks. Chesterton
Chesterton:
Very scientific definition.
It is, actually. Not sure if you were being sarcastic.
Could you give me an example of science that you think is not expressed “by formulas”?
Most of the models of biology, like Common Descent and OOL.
Both those models have equations, as well as physical models - in vitro experiments for example, but again, those experiments are modeled with equations. In my field we also talk about "animal models" - a genetically engineered mouse, for instance, that approximates to what we think might be going on in a human disorder. But again, the fit of model to data is quantitative evaluated via equations that make predictions that we compare to our empirical data.
4. Ok understood ID it is not a model, but what is it? What are music and architecture that can reveal “other truth”.
Not quite sure of what you mean. But when I listen to a great piece of music, or play it, I seem to understand my place in the world a little better, and my relationship with it. Can't really put it better than that. Elizabeth B Liddle
Trying again- Lizzie:
And no, ID is not a testable model, as it stands.
Yes it is and we have said how to test it.
And yes, UCD models can, and are, tested.
Lizzie, no one knows what makes an organism what it is. So how can it be tested? You don't even know what mutations nor how many to get from one body plan to another. Heck you don't even know if it's possible. Joe
Lizzie:
And no, ID is not a testable model, as it stands.</blockq
Joe
something that outputs values that closely resemble those of your data.
Very scientific definition.
Could you give me an example of science that you think is not expressed “by formulas”?
Most of the models of biology, like Common Descent and OOL. 4. Ok understood ID it is not a model, but what is it? What are music and architecture that can reveal "other truth". Chesterton
Greetings from the lands of the rolling Danube and the rabid bear. As a PHD C working with models I have to disagree with Donna Elizabeth on the matter. Research done by tenured profesionals isn't about simulating reality or discovering the Universe since these definitions are very broad and slippery. Research is about technology unlike philosophy or politics for that matter. So Evolution or ID would have to compete in terms of utility to the development of new procedures and devices. Thus paleontology, biology, OOL researchers would have to develop based on their theories over the genome a process based entirely on selection over multiple generations with minimum intervention from the lab worker. For the evolutionist to be succesful he or she must plan the fitness landscape of a real lifeform and direct its genome through a predicted number of generations. For the IDer the challange would be to produce an adaptive genome from scratch capable of change and program those steps in the genome without deviation. Whatever party fulfills the request first on a cell-to-animal journey will earn the prize. People use evidence in courts., where empirical observations of the fact are impossible. Scientific research produces evidence, advocacy groups use it further. You can't use evidence or observations in your paper except for hypothesis development. For your demonstraition you need experimental data. This is the real beef here. The argument is not philosophical but practical. The most technologically.-capable paradigm will win, regardless of consequences. Loghin
1. No, I don't think epistemology is "knowledge stopped at the 16th century. I just meant that the idea that science is the fitting of models to data has been around for a very long time. It's not some "trendy" new thing. Kepler was one of the first to do this spectacularly. 2. I don't think I would describe a model as a "logical arrangement of data". I'd describe a model as a something that outputs values that closely resemble those of your data. 3. Could you give me an example of science that you think is not expressed "by formulas"? 4. It could be true that the world was designed by an omnipotent deity. But we cannot construct a model based on that hypothesis because it is totally unconstrained. A scientific model makes - is - a prediction. It could be a simple and elegant equation, where you plug in your predictor at one end, and you get your prediction out the other, and you then measure your data and see if it fits your prediction. Or it could be a computer model, with a large number of variables, with a dynamic output that has properties that match those of your data. But if your model is simply that some mystery agent that could do anything, made the universe, there's no prediction, because there is no way of saying: if there was no ID it would look like this, and if there was an ID it would look like that. That's what's sort of odd when ID proponents get indignant when people say - but why would good God have spent so much time on a flagellum for a bacteria, so that it can do a better job of killing small children? But that's what a model should do - tell us what to expect if the model is good. A model that can predict anything, can of course, predict nothing. And it's by measuring the difference between the predictions of our models and the data that we can evaluate our models. They are never perfect. But we can compare a good model against a better one or a worse one. We can't make a model out of a theory that doesn't predict anything. Which wouldn't stop it being true. Elizabeth B Liddle
Not really, unless you are a time traveller from the early sixteenth century
Seems that you and segaba think that epistemology is knowledge stopped at sixteen century.
by model I mean something that is a simplified simalacrum of the real thing. An architects model is a model. So is an equation that expresses, say the relationship between two or more variables. If you plug realistic values into those variables, you should output an answer that looks like your data. It’ll be a bit smoother than your data, because data is always more complicated than the model, just as an architect’s model is a bit smoother than the real thing, and lacks a bit of detail.
Let me try to help you with this. Would you agree that a model is logical arrangement of data?
You look at your data, and you look what the model predicts that data should be, and you measure how far the data is from the modeled data. As the model has been optimised for best fit, their should be as many positive distances and negative distances, so you square them and add them. Or there are other model-fitting methods, but they are all based on the same principle – find the model parameters that minimise the gap between your model and the data, and then quantify the gap.
Ok, this is valid when your model can be expressed as a formula you can found wich of two formula fits better to th data. How about science that are not expressed by formulas?
If you can’t test a “model” then I don’t see that it’s a “model” at all
But you said that ID can be true, if it is not a model what is it? What are the other ways t respond to reality? Chesterton
Yes, it's the derivation of the word, Joe. But it's not, I would say, the core of science as a discipline. It results in the accumulation of knowledge, but the way we do it is by testing models against data, and coming to provisional conclusions. And no, ID is not a testable model, as it stands. You might be able to come up with a testable model that wasn't committed to a particular designer. And yes, UCD models can, and are, tested. And the data fit the model very well. The main problem is that the further back in time we go, the fewer data there are, and the gappier the data, the wider will be the confidence intervals of the model. Elizabeth B Liddle
Lizzie:
I don’t think science is primarily about “the accumulation of knowledge”, ...
Well it is as science means knowledge.
But the problem, as I see it, for ID, is that first it needs to have a testable model.
We have one. OTOH unguided evolution does not.
Sure we could test ID hypotheses, but they wouldn’t have anything to do with god.
Great- ID doesn't have anything to do with any God. As for universal common descent, well that cannot be tested. Joe
Chesterton:
I would say trendy.
Not really, unless you are a time traveller from the early sixteenth century :)
Ok, my question was What is a model?
OK, let me try again: by model I mean something that is a simplified simalacrum of the real thing. An architects model is a model. So is an equation that expresses, say the relationship between two or more variables. If you plug realistic values into those variables, you should output an answer that looks like your data. It'll be a bit smoother than your data, because data is always more complicated than the model, just as an architect's model is a bit smoother than the real thing, and lacks a bit of detail.
So the way we are evaluating fit to “reality” is to iteratively fit our models to our data.
My question is how do you know the fitness of a model? Maybe at the end the question is what does fitness means for a model?
You look at your data, and you look what the model predicts that data should be, and you measure how far the data is from the modeled data. As the model has been optimised for best fit, their should be as many positive distances and negative distances, so you square them and add them. Or there are other model-fitting methods, but they are all based on the same principle - find the model parameters that minimise the gap between your model and the data, and then quantify the gap.
I don’t. ID could be true.
Then science is a group of models of reality that up to now are the best fit (or less wrong)
Absolutely.
but maybe outside science there are other models not testable that maybe are true?
Well, it is part of the definition of a scientific model that it is testable, because it is a way of "mocking up" if you like, a semblance of reality. If you can do that, then you can measure the gap between your model and the data, and so test it. If you can't test a "model" then I don't see that it's a "model" at all. That doesn't mean there aren't other ways of responding to reality. Before I was a scientist I as a musician (and an architect!), and I still find a different kind of truth in music that tells me something about reality, but is not a testable model of it. That's why my best description of it is that it is my response to reality. That's why, in my view, the idea that there is a conflict between a scientific, model-testing view of reality ("world-view") and a spiritual or religious one, is simply wrong. There is more than one way to comprehend the world. Where ID goes wrong, IMO, is to confuse these things, and attempt to make a spiritual approach to the world "scientific". It can't be done. Sure we could test ID hypotheses, but they wouldn't have anything to do with god. The world might well be designed, and if we were really interested, and really thought it was a good hypothesis, we could construct models and find out more about the kind of designer that might have designed it. But we'd have to dump any assumption that the designer was a benevolent or omnipotent God. It might be. It might not be. And if it turned out to be Cthulhu or someone, that still wouldn't tell us that there is no benevolent and omnipotent God that willed us into being. It would just mean that for some reason she did it by willing Cthulhu into being first, and getting Cthulhu to design us. Elizabeth B Liddle
I would say trendy.
500 years is quite a trend.
Then science is a group of models of reality that up to now are the best fit (or less wrong) but maybe outside science there are other models not testable that maybe are true?
Totally, there are many rational assumptions that may be true but are not testable, such as "man should tend toward the good," or "life is a dream," or "The Lord's grace is boundless." However this point is not relevant to ID, which is premised on the idea that it is true and testable. sigaba
Glad you find it interesting – I regard it as pretty standard!
I would say trendy.
From this dynamic serial information flow we construct a model of a stable scene,
Ok, my question was What is a model?
So the way we are evaluating fit to “reality” is to iteratively fit our models to our data.
My question is how do you know the fitness of a model? Maybe at the end the question is what does fitness means for a model?
I don’t. ID could be true.
Then science is a group of models of reality that up to now are the best fit (or less wrong) but maybe outside science there are other models not testable that maybe are true? Chesterton
Chesterton:
E. B. Liddle, it is a very interesting concept of science.
Glad you find it interesting - I regard it as pretty standard!
I think you have to be more explicit in a couple of things. What is a “model of reality”?
OK. Let's start from the assumption (which may or may not be true, but I'm going to go with it) that there is some kind of Real Stuff Out There. That the universe would still exist if we weren't watching it, trying to figure it out. I would say that from Day 1 (probably before that actually) we make testable causal models of the world - hypotheses that propose that "if this happens, then that happens". Some of this is done well below the level of conscious awareness, so that when what we "see" is a continuous stable scene, although what our retinas receive is a series of non-aligned snapshots, in which only the central few degrees of arc actually sees colour and detail. From this dynamic serial information flow we construct a model of a stable scene, in which we can parse discrete objects with properties like "heavy", "soft", "round", "reachable", "graspable", "red". But these are models, and they often do not match reality - we test them by reaching for things, and adjusting our model when we find we have picked up an empty tea cup instead of a full one, sometimes spilling the dregs as our bad model-fit causes us to put too much effort into the lift. And science, I suggest, is a grown-up formal version of just this process. We make models of the world, future, past and present, and we test those models by making predictions, and adjusting the models if they don't work.
How do you evaluate different “models of reality”?(I mean how do you evaluate which model fits better to reality)
Sometimes we have basically the right model - an equation, for instance, that describes, the way one thing covaries with another, and all we need to do is refine the parameters of the equation - we have the right functional form. Sometimes we need a new functional form. Common descent is like this. There is abundant evidence that the functional form that best fits the morphological data is a basically a tree, but much of phylogenetics consists of fitting that tree model - tuning the parameters, to fit the data. But when it came to genetics, the tree model turned out to be to crude, because it only modeled longitudinally inherited characters. So the model itself needed to be elaborated, including a causal hypothesis to account for the extra terms in the model - HGT. Which again has to be parameterised with new data. And these models are tested, in many cases, with statistical methods that essentially produce a parameterised equation that outputs predicted values that are closest to the actual data. One way of optimising the equation is to sum the squares of the differences between the model predictions and the actual data. The parameterisation process seeks to minimise that sum of squares. And it might turn out that a different functional form gives a better optimised fit. Very often, two functional forms give similar fits, but the errors are in different places. So to evaluate which is better, you might need to come up with a slightly different functional form that is better than both. So the way we are evaluating fit to "reality" is to iteratively fit our models to our data. The fact that our models tend to converge is, to me, evidence for the case that there is a Real universe out there that we become iteratively better at describing with equations. Although I guess there could be a Real universe that never conformed to equations, because that's just not the way it worked. The fact that it is describable, remarkably reliably, by equations - or other kinds of model, although most boil down to equations! - seems to me good evidence that we are slowly uncovering a real thing, not inventing one out of whole cloth.
And if science cannot rule things out why you rule out not rigorously testable models?
I don't. ID could be true. But it's not very interestingly true if I can't get an ID model to converge on some data. If I can, and it converges better than an non-ID model, then I've learned something - I really have "increased knowledge". But that knowledge is still provisional. Someone could get a paper in Nature next week that converges even better than the ID model and doesn't involve an ID. But the problem, as I see it, for ID, is that first it needs to have a testable model. Right now we have a good model but there are lots of things it doesn't predict well, and there are things it predicts that we can't easily test, so we can't refine that part of the model. Most of ID seems to point at those "error terms" - the summed squares, if you like! - and say: see! you can't explain that, Darwinists! Therefore ID! That's the big problem with ID. I think it comes from mistakenly thinking that "Darwinists" are saying: "look at the fit! No ID required! God is dead!" We aren't, and can't. Of course there will always be a huge error term in any scientific model that attempts to describe events of which the overwhelming majority have left no trace. That doesn't mean we can't fit good models to the traces we do have. It just means that there will always be predictions with no data to predict, and gaps between our model and the data we do have. Philosophically, one might then conclude "ID". But it wouldn't be a scientific conclusion. To be scientific, ID has to make a model that predicts the data better than "Darwinism". It doesn't work merely to point at the error term in the Darwinist model, because that tells us nothing more than "there's stuff we don't know yet". Not that we ever will, for sure, because in science, knowledge is always provisional :) Elizabeth B Liddle
And if science cannot rule things out why you rule out not rigorously testable models?
If I may, models are axiomatic to the program. The scientific method is grounded in the metaphysical assumption that human reason and human senses are reliable. Models are simply instances or cases of human reason. sigaba
E. B. Liddle, it is a very interesting concept of science. I think you have to be more explicit in a couple of things. What is a "model of reality"? How do you evaluate different "models of reality"?(I men hoe do you evaluate which model fits better to reality). And if science cannot rule things out why you rule out not rigorously testable models? Chesterton
Just because a person answers “no” to the God issue does not mean he has no beliefs or even that his views are not religious.
I don't think the science takes any position on the existence or non-existence of a God. Someone like Dawkins is pretty religious in his atheism, but natural selection does not require Dawkins (or anyone else). The issue with criticizing religious presuppositions is that it's solipsistic and unless you're willing to state, flat out, that your religious view is superior on account of this or that doctrine, you have no ground to critique any other. The specifically Christian defense in this mode would be that the members of the holy trinity, in their properties, reciprocally validate all forms of human truth, across all time and space, and no other religion reveals an institution that provides such a covenant with man. A somewhat stronger version of this argument would be that a person with a theistic worldview is simply incapable of understanding a naturalistic argument on its own terms, let alone refuting it (and vice versus). That would make any conversation we had unproductive. I personally have my doubts that "worldviews" exist, aside from as a scapegoat for people who can't produce persuasive arguments. It's a lot easier to claim your interlocutor is of an incompatible mental formation than it is to admit your argument, while perhaps true, just doesn't sway reasonable people. sigaba
Andre:
Science in it’s strictest term is about the accumulation of knowledge, if the supernatural does in fact exist, this idea that we may only inquire about natural causes ends up preventing us from getting that said knowledge.
That's a very interesting comment, and I wonder how many people here, especially IDists, think the same. I don't. I don't think science is primarily about "the accumulation of knowledge", and I think that a great deal of misunderstanding of scientific claims starts here. People think that "learning science" is learning a lot of facts, and that they shouldn't have to have wrong, unproven, "facts" pushed into them by Darwinists. But this is to misunderstand both science education and the nature of scientific claims. Science education should, above all, IMO, instill the concept that science is fundamentally about models of reality that must be evaluated against data and against other models. Extremely well-supported models eventually acquire the informal status of "facts" but no science student should ever be able to forget that all facts - even all data - are models at some level. Even a temperature measurement is a model of the "true" temperature, and depending on your thermometer may be a rather poor model. And "temperature" itself is a model of something else, ultimately of the energy a body has that is available to do work. Which themselves are models. At the bottom of all "facts" are equations - models. We don't have The Thing Itself. This means that all scientific conclusions are provisional. It also means that science cannot rule things out, it can only rule things in. And even then, only provisionally. For all Popper's brilliance, we do not, and cannot, do falsification, in science. All we can do is compare models for fit, and choose the one with that is least wrong (and we even have precise metrics for the quantity of wrongness). I'd be perfectly happy to have ID taught in science class, as long as it was taught as a rigorously testable model. But as yet, despite protestation to the contrary, there is no rigorously testable ID model. There are only attempts to claim ownership of the error term in standard models. Elizabeth B Liddle
Of related note: Self-refutation and the New Atheists: The Case of Jerry Coyne - Michael Egnor - September 12, 2013 Excerpt: Their (the New Atheists) ideology is a morass of bizarre self-refuting claim. They assert that science is the only way to truth, yet take no note that scientism itself isn't a scientific assertion. They assert a "skeptical" view that thoughts are only constructed artifacts of our neurological processing and have no sure contact with truth, ignoring the obvious inference that their skeptical assertion is thereby reduced to a constructed artifact with no sure contact with truth. They assert that Christianity has brought much immorality to the world, yet they deny the existence of objective morality. They assert that intelligent design is not testable, and (yet claim the counter proposition that life is not designed is testable). And they assert that we are determined entirely by our natural history and physical law and thereby have no free will, yet they assert this freely, claiming truth and personal exemption from determinism. Here is a case in point.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/09/self-refutation076541.html Michael Egnor - Professor, Department of Neurological Surgery - Stony Brook bornagain77
Perhaps Coyne and his atheistic cheerleaders in academia, despite these unambiguous results from science, will insist that science must still only allow naturalistic (i.e. within space-time matter/energy) answers no matter what the evidence says to the contrary. So let's grant that atheistic presupposition for a moment and observe what the catastrophic results for science would be.
Alvin Plantinga - Evolutionary Argument against Naturalism - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r34AIo-xBh8 Content and Natural Selection - Alvin Plantinga - 2011 http://www.andrewmbailey.com/ap/Content_Natural_Selection.pdf Scientific Peer Review is in Trouble: From Medical Science to Darwinism - Mike Keas - October 10, 2012 Excerpt: Survival is all that matters on evolutionary naturalism. Our evolving brains are more likely to give us useful fictions that promote survival rather than the truth about reality. Thus evolutionary naturalism undermines all rationality (including confidence in science itself). Renown philosopher Alvin Plantinga has argued against naturalism in this way (summary of that argument is linked on the site:). Or, if your short on time and patience to grasp Plantinga's nuanced argument, see if you can digest this thought from evolutionary cognitive psychologist Steve Pinker, who baldly states: "Our brains are shaped for fitness, not for truth; sometimes the truth is adaptive, sometimes it is not." Steven Pinker, evolutionary cognitive psychologist, How the Mind Works (W.W. Norton, 1997), p. 305. http://blogs.christianpost.com/science-and-faith/scientific-peer-review-is-in-trouble-from-medical-science-to-darwinism-12421/ Why No One (Can) Believe Atheism/Naturalism to be True - video Excerpt: "Since we are creatures of natural selection, we cannot totally trust our senses. Evolution only passes on traits that help a species survive, and not concerned with preserving traits that tell a species what is actually true about life." Richard Dawkins - quoted from "The God Delusion" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4QFsKevTXs
The following interview is sadly comical as a evolutionary psychologist realizes that neo-Darwinism can offer no guarantee that our faculties of reasoning will correspond to the truth, not even for the truth that he is purporting to give in the interview, (which begs the question of how was he able to come to that particular truthful realization, in the first place, if neo-Darwinian evolution were actually true?);
Evolutionary guru: Don't believe everything you think - October 2011 Interviewer: You could be deceiving yourself about that.(?) Evolutionary Psychologist: Absolutely. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128335.300-evolutionary-guru-dont-believe-everything-you-think.html BRUCE GORDON: Hawking's irrational arguments - October 2010 Excerpt: What is worse, multiplying without limit the opportunities for any event to happen in the context of a multiverse - where it is alleged that anything can spontaneously jump into existence without cause - produces a situation in which no absurdity is beyond the pale. For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the "Boltzmann Brain" problem: In the most "reasonable" models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/
Thus the rationality of science itself is undermined if one is determined to give only naturalistic answers in science no matter what the evidence says to the contrary. supplemental notes:
The Argument from Reason - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKX-QtEo2fI “If you do not assume the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not assume the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not assume libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not assume morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.” - William J Murray
bornagain77
The belief that science disproves God, and that science can only investigate naturalistic causes, is laughable, especially considering the fact science, in its relentless pursuit of truth, has now shown that we live in a Theistic universe. A few notes to that effect:
Divinely Planted Quantum States - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCTBygadaM4 “I’m going to talk about the Bell inequality, and more importantly a new inequality that you might not have heard of called the Leggett inequality, that was recently measured. It was actually formulated almost 30 years ago by Professor Leggett, who is a Nobel Prize winner, but it wasn’t tested until about a year and a half ago (in 2007), when an article appeared in Nature, that the measurement was made by this prominent quantum group in Vienna led by Anton Zeilinger, which they measured the Leggett inequality, which actually goes a step deeper than the Bell inequality and rules out any possible interpretation other than consciousness creates reality when the measurement is made.” – Bernard Haisch, Ph.D., Calphysics Institute, is an astrophysicist and author of over 130 scientific publications. Preceding quote taken from this following video; Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness - A New Measurement - Bernard Haisch, Ph.D (Shortened version of entire video with notes in description of video) http://vimeo.com/37517080 Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (i.e. Leggett's Inequality) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit
Quantum Mechanics has also now been extended to falsify local realism (reductive materialism) without even using quantum entanglement to do it:
‘Quantum Magic’ Without Any ‘Spooky Action at a Distance’ – June 2011 Excerpt: A team of researchers led by Anton Zeilinger at the University of Vienna and the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Information of the Austrian Academy of Sciences used a system which does not allow for entanglement, and still found results which cannot be interpreted classically. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110624111942.htm
Also of note, quantum entanglement, which requires a beyond space-time cause to explain its existence within space-time,
Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory - (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: "Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them," says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm
Is also now found with molecular biology on a massive scale,,
Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA - Elisabeth Rieper - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/
There is simply no naturalistic, within space-time, matter and energy cause for atheists to appeal to to explain quantum entanglement within molecular biology (or anywhere else for that matter). bornagain77
Everyone has their own worldview, whether it is well defined or not. We all evaluate the evidence through / filter it through this worldview. Some worldviews involve God or some other spiritual Being/beings, and some deny the spiritual realm to answer the big questions of life. Whether one includes or excludes the spiritual realm in your worldview seems to determine whether you have a religion or are a religious person or not. But really, all worldviews are beliefs and in that sense "religious". Just because a person answers "no" to the God issue does not mean he has no beliefs or even that his views are not religious. It simply means that his beliefs do not include God. tjguy
Darwinists’ arguments seem to be “The designer would have done it this way” or “The designer would not have done it this way”
It's an interesting inversion of Thomas Aquinas. Aquinas: "Contingency in nature proves there is a creator God." Naturalist: "But there isn't much contingency in nature!" sigaba
It certainly sounds like religion to me. Darwinists' arguments seem to be "The designer would have done it this way" or "The designer would not have done it this way" ergo random chance did it. They have no positive evidence for their myth, so they attack I.D and creation. Isn't it funny that those who claim to NOT want religion in science classes are the ones constantly bringing religion into science classes? And they have the nerve to say I.D proponents want to sneak religion into the classrooms? WOW Blue_Savannah
Re RodW @15 As far as Behe is concerned, in general he demonstrates a good deal of intellectual honesty, which is why I suspect he said what he did, including the statement about astrology. He has stated "space aliens" are a possible designer, but I think he means it fatuously, in the same way that Dawkins's "selfish gene" is meant to be, on a certain level, fatuous. (trolling here, I know)
Are you saying that taking design seriously, in other words, drawing conclusions about the mind of the designer based on the natural world, or, rejecting design altogether based on the natural world necessarily involves invoking the supernatural?
I would say there are certain entailments. If a designer is completely natural, that means that the designer's means of design and the natural history involved are open to scientific inquiry. If the designer is not completely natural, or it is possible that he is not, this would mean that the means and history cannot be investigated scientifically. People are free to draw whatever conclusions they may from natural or supernatural cause. But it's not reasonable to expect conclusions involving supernatural causes to be accepted by any particular person. Revelation is not an experiment and one man's mere experience is not evidence. IDEA is pretty clear that the designer is not investigable:
Intelligent design theory cannot address the identity or origin of the designer--it is a philosophical / religious question that lies outside the domain of scientific inquiry.
This is where I can see some people having disagreements. I do think, that if you postulate a wholly natural designer, you are obliged to produce evidence of the process of design, perhaps a plausible explanation for the natural history which is not contradicted by physical evidence or experiment. If not these things, you should at least be able to suggest investigations that could be done. String Theory's probably a crock, but at least there are some experiments that could conceivably be performed to validate it. Fuller's position was like yours I think, in that he thought it was a false dilemma to choose between supernatural and natural cause, and that "intelligent" cause and supernatural cause were not distinguishable to a scientist. I think this second position has merit, but the first one does not. sigaba
Science in it's strictest term is about the accumulation of knowledge, if the supernatural does in fact exist, this idea that we may only inquire about natural causes ends up preventing us from getting that said knowledge. It seems cutting off your nose to spite your face is an apt description here..... Andre
Sigaba Thus Of Pandas and People: Darwinists object to the view of intelligent design because it does not give a natural cause explanation of how the various forms of life started in the first place. I think you should replace 'Darwinists' with biologists or scientists...but anyway, I think that's part of the reason. The history of science tells us that when information is available, a natural cause is always the explanation for any phenomena and Michael Behe: It is implausible that the designer is a natural entity. I'm surprised he said that. I could swear hes always insisted the intelligent designer could be aliens. and Scott Minnich: I would disagree that because intelligent design theories are based on supernatural explanations, they can have nothing to do with science. I agree with Minnich. I think supernatural causes could in principle studied by science. I just think the notion of a 'supernatural' cause is nonsensical. In a way its an internal contradiction. From the point of view of science there are causes..where they come from is irrelevant. I appreciate that your opinion may be different, but these are the guys writing the books… I'm not sure what you're getting at here but I have a feeling it would lead to an interesting discussion. Are you saying that taking design seriously, in other words, drawing conclusions about the mind of the designer based on the natural world, or, rejecting design altogether based on the natural world necessarily involves invoking the supernatural? The proposed designer may be supernatural but the process of design itself need not be. RodW
Oh I forgot this one, the peach:
Under my definition, a scientific theory is a proposed explanation which focuses or points to physical, observable data and logical inferences. There are many things throughout the history of science which we now think to be incorrect which nonetheless would fit that -- which would fit that definition. Yes, astrology is in fact one, and so is the ether theory of the propagation of light, and many other -- many other theories as well.
sigaba
Rodw at 8:
Designers and design are products of the natural world.
Thus Of Pandas and People:
Darwinists object to the view of intelligent design because it does not give a natural cause explanation of how the various forms of life started in the first place.
and Michael Behe:
It is implausible that the designer is a natural entity.
and Scott Minnich:
I would disagree that because intelligent design theories are based on supernatural explanations, they can have nothing to do with science.
and Steven Fuller:
I do believe that ID is open to supernaturalism. [...] Yeah, I think it's fair to say that intelligent design aspires to change the ground rules of science.
and Nancy Pearcy:
By contrast, design theory demonstrates that Christians can sit in the supernaturalist's "chair" even in their professional lives, seeing the cosmos through the lens of a comprehensive biblical worldview. Intelligent Design steps boldly into the scientific arena to build a case based on empirical data. It takes Christianity out of the ineffectual realm of value and stakes out a cognitive claim in the realm of objective truth. It restores Christianity to its status as genuine knowledge, equipping us to defend it in the public arena.
Let's just cut to the chase, John E. Jones:
It is notable that defense experts' own mission, which mirrors that of the IDM itself, is to change the ground rules of science to allow supernatural causation of the natural world, which the Supreme Court in Edwards and the court in McLean correctly recognized as an inherently religious concept. First, defense expert Professor Fuller agreed that ID aspires to "change the ground rules" of science and lead defense expert Professor Behe admitted that his broadened definition of science, which encompasses ID, would also embrace astrology. Moreover, defense expert Professor Minnich acknowledged that for ID to be considered science, the ground rules of science have to be broadened to allow consideration of supernatural forces. .
I appreciate that your opinion may be different, but these are the guys writing the books... sigaba
Nah. The natural world itself is arguably a product of design That's an entirely different topic. Here we're discussing things within the universe. What’s more, “designers” – insofar as humans are concerned – are not fully understood understood, nor understood enough in the relevant senses We don't need complete knowledge of humans to make correlations between what we know of humans and human created objects. We have no uniform and repeated experience of the two in a relevant sense We have an immense amount of experience in a relevant sense. For example, many objects have sub-optimal design. We can catalog a huge number of reasons why this would be the case and study of individual objects can suggest explanations: many things produced in Germany in early 1945 showed great skill and care in their manufacture, but were produced with wildly inferior materials, why should this be the case? A series of British warships produced during the Napoleonic Wars appeared to have copper bolts holding the hull planks together, as was the standard practice. But the 'bolts' were only surface fittings and didn't pass through the planks, making the ships rather fragile. Why was this done? The ancient Greeks make their temples entirely out of marble, but the Romans made temples from volcanic stone with only a thin marble veneer. Why? Some objects made in the USA in the 1960s and 70s had moving parts that would fail quickly, but it seems the objects could have been made just as easily with parts that would last much longer...why? When we encounter objects composed of component parts, where the components are well designed but the connections between the components are relatively poorly designed, that suggests that the object was designed by separate designers, with poor communication between the designers. In all of these cases the objects and context of their creation are rich in information about the minds, motives and limitations of the designers. Now, it can be reasonable to conclude some objects are undesigned. It can likewise be reasonable to conclude they are designed. Exactly. But we don't need to spin our wheels, endlessly philosophizing about the possibilities. We can study the natural world. We can analyze suboptimal design in living things and compare it to what we know about designed objects To hear you talk, no human has ever encountered artifacts whose purpose they were unaware of, or had an unknown provenance or manufacture Of course I don't believe that. I've seen the 'Mystery Tool' segment on This Old House. The important point in the vast majority of cases is that we know the designer is human, and we know a great deal of human design. ( animal created objects are not relevant)....so its a mystery embedded within a great deal of knowledge. One can assume or suppose what said design is – but when it comes to nature, such assumptions are theology and metaphysics. Not science Perhaps humans will go extinct next week. If millions of years from now, intelligent aliens visited the earth they'd set about studying what artifacts humans had left. They might eventually uncover large pieces of plastic that very closely resembled living plants. Study of these objects would tell them a great deal about the minds of their designers. This is not metaphysics. RodW
Designers and design are products of the natural world.
Nah. The natural world itself is arguably a product of design. What's more, "designers" - insofar as humans are concerned - are not fully understood understood, nor understood enough in the relevant senses. See the problems of consciousness, intentionality, etc.
Our uniform and repeated experience of the 2 tells us that very often the mind, motives, and limitations of the designer are apparent in the design.
We have no uniform and repeated experience of the two in a relevant sense. Also, very often our experience shows that the mind, motives and limitations of the designer are poorly understood, and sometimes remain mysterious.
Its therefore reasonable to conclude that some objects are ‘undesigned’ even though we can never be 100% certain.
Your reasoning is flawed, so it doesn't follow. Now, it can be reasonable to conclude some objects are undesigned. It can likewise be reasonable to conclude they are designed. That includes regarding the universe itself as designed, or our world, or.. etc.
Our uncertainty rises if we consider that the designer can work in mysterious ways-
Nope. And again, your 'uniform and repeated experience' is not just wrong, but godawful wrong. To hear you talk, no human has ever encountered artifacts whose purpose they were unaware of, or had an unknown provenance or manufacture. Finally, any talk of 'perfect design' presupposes knowledge of the designer's intent. One can assume or suppose what said design is - but when it comes to nature, such assumptions are theology and metaphysics. Not science. It really is true: religion drives science, and it matters. nullasalus
...the absolute perfection achievable by a designer starting from scratch...
Ah, the myth of the perfect design. We're told that natural selection is a design mimic, and we're told that it's not. Pardon me for wondering then just what the argument consists of. It never ceases to baffle me how well-educated people can be so immune to their own folly. Mung
From the OP:
Perfect design would truly be the sign of a skilled and intelligent designer. Imperfect design is the mark of evolution; in fact it’s precisely what we expect from evolution. (p. 86)
Glad to see they've finally caught up to what's described at Romans 5:12. Imperfection entered into humanity millenia ago, and it isn't a product of evolution, as most religious people know. Barb
It is not religion Designers and design are products of the natural world. Our uniform and repeated experience of the 2 tells us that very often the mind, motives, and limitations of the designer are apparent in the design. Its therefore reasonable to conclude that some objects are 'undesigned' even though we can never be 100% certain. Our uncertainty rises if we consider that the designer can work in mysterious ways- contrary to our uniform and repeated experience of designers. RodW
podcast - Ball State University Class Teaches that "Science Must Destroy Religion" http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2013-09-11T12_57_10-07_00 bornagain77
Hi groovamos, Thanks for your kind offer. I rarely travel overseas, but if I ever get over to the States again (my last time was a 3-month Greyhound bus tour in 1994/95, during which I got to see 34 states), I'll try to look you up. Sounds like you could use a bit of cool weather over there at the moment. By the way, there are a couple of posts over at Evolution News and Views regarding the content of Dr. Hedin's classes: here and here. Dr. Hedin's class reading lists for his students can be found here. See also here. Finally, lots of good links relating to the whole controversy can be found here. I hope that helps. vjtorley
Of course it is all hypocrisy. This is no mystery. Most evolutionists must be subconsciously terrified of open debate or criticism, so we get this hypocritical, clownish behavior as a result where they get to talk about a Designer but nobody else can. And of course the general comedy where these evolutionist clowns have an automatic system of equating criticism of their theory with a religious anti-science conspiracy. Thus ensuring total avoidance of debate. What other theory has ever gotten a 100% total pass on criticism like this? The whole thing is a joke. lifepsy
When someone says that he knows what a designer intends without any observation of or communication with the designer, he is making a philosophical argument not necessarily a religious one. Nearly all the quotes are of the nature of what a designer would intend or would not intend. Therefore, Coyne's book should be classified as a philosophical book. Also the title of the book, truth, is a philosophical topic. But is the book philsophical? The reason it is theoretically not religious is that religion is essentially a framework for relating to a god. Coyne never said god or God though we all know and he knows that is what he means. But by taking pride in his accomplishment with Amazon, he is admitting to the religious nature of his efforts and the true nature of his book. His book is a religious book. People around here who are anti-ID often try to paint ID into a corner by saying there was no intelligent entities present when all the changes happened and thus, there can not be any intelligent designer. Or they say you are referring to a god of some form in which case you are making a religious argument not a scientific one and that therefore ID is religious. They then deny that an argument using science or logic about design is a valid argument for establishing some type of a god. All very convoluted. Are Coyne, Gora and the rest being hypocrites? Of course they are. But what else is new? As an aside: When Leibniz wrote about the "best of all possible worlds" he was mocked by Voltaire in Candide and now Coyne is doing something similar. The only problem is that we have no idea what "best" is and neither did Voltaire and Coyne is a little leaguer compared to Voltaire. Could it be that these so called imperfections are a form of perfection. jerry
Well Neil, I was not aware that Eric Hedin was teaching a class on ID. Was this what he was teaching? I could use some edification on this. BTW at the moment we are 91 here in Houston, NYC is at 93. Would be good if you and Dr. Tour could have a meeting of minds; my offer still open. He seems gracious and interested in his family meeting you. groovamos
Yes Chimera
I don't own that book, so I cannot check the context. The first quote looks okay to me. It is reasonable to say something about the evolutionary process, and the idea that it is more tinkering than design seems reasonable. For the next couple of quotes -- I am not a fan of the "imperfect design" argument. But these are in the early pages of the book where a broad discussion could be reasonable, so I don't see an obvious problem. The next quote is from p. 57. If this is a science book, it should be discussing the science by now. It is beginning to look as if this is more a polemics book than a science book. Admittedly, the book title also suggests that it is a polemics book. As for the Sept 10 Discovery Institute letter -- it seems a bit silly to me. It concerns a "Dangerous Ideas" seminar class which, as far as I know, is not treated as a science class. Eric Hedin's class on ID would be better suited to that seminar series instead of being offered as a general science class. Neil Rickert

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