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JDK argues against objective morality—by assuming the truth of objective morality.

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Moral subjectivists never fail to entertain me when they try to make their philosophy seem reasonable and workable. UD commentator jdk, for example, doesn’t seem to realize how often his unstated assumptions undermine – or even nullify – the very points he is trying to make.

In one exchange, he denies the existence of objective morality, but he does say, nevertheless, that he “judges” murder to be wrong – not objectively wrong – but wrong in the sense that a moral judgment is a subjective act. So I asked him to explain why he “judges” murder to be wrong. He graciously (and courageously) answered the question , and I now follow with my analysis:

JDK: [I judge that murder is wrong] because my mature sense of love, compassion, and empathy for other human beings is such that I desire for them as much right to life as I desire for myself.

I admire the altruistic impulse that informs this comment, but I must begin with a qualifying question: How do you know that your sense of love, compassion, and empathy is “mature” unless there is some objective moral standard to differentiate between a mature sense and an immature sense?

According to the objective standard, mature love (Agape) involves an element of making sacrifices for the other, whereas immature love (Eros) is based simply on feelings and the thrill of being pleased by the other. Subjectivism, however, does not make these kinds of distinctions and cannot, therefore, identify what is mature and what is not.

To truly judge the act of murder, it is not enough to express wishes and desires. One must consider principled reasons why potential victims are entitled to live – what is it about them or their nature that gives them that right? – and why murderers deserve to be punished – what is it about their act that demands satisfaction? Subjective morality cannot even begin to address those issues.

JDK: I also recognize the benefits to society in general for a safe social structure that allows everyone to have a reasonable opportunity to become as well-developed human beings as they can, again motivated by a sense of connection to my fellow human beings through emotions such as love, compassion, and empathy.

Again, you have stepped into the arena of objective morality. In order to know what benefits society, one must first know what is good for society. Among other things, the good of survival is connected to the good of procreating the species, which in turn, is connected to the good of forming communities, all of which are objectively good benefits because they are consistent with man’s social nature. This all makes perfect sense.

Subjective morality, on the other hand, does not recognize natural goods or natural rights, or natural obligations. Thus, it cannot address the subject of what “benefits” society. That is why it is so dangerous. (Moral subjectivism is more than just an exercise in irrational thinking. When humans try to fashion their own morality, an immoral culture of misery and death always follows. If objective morality doesn’t exist, then the moral code [and the civil law derived from it] is whatever those who are in power want it to be, and they want what is good for them, always at the expense of everyone else).

Moving forward, how do you know when humans are “well-developed” unless you acknowledge some objective standard that determines when they reach that threshold? The question that cannot be avoided is: “Well developed compared to what?

Are humans well developed if they possess love, compassion, and empathy but lack persistence, courage, and loyalty? Objective morality answers that question with a firm no: a well-developed human being is one that has cultivated both the soft and the hard virtues. Subjective morality doesn’t even recognize virtues as virtues. Yet you pay a quiet tribute at least to the soft virtues (empathy etc.), which are objective in nature, though you shrug them off as mere “emotions.”

Further, if there are no “shoulds” then why do you imply that society should have a safe social structure? Isn’t it because a safe society is an objectively good situation to be aimed for and an unsafe society is an objectively bad situation to be avoided?

JDK: In part, I desire such a society because I know that I and the ones I most closely love and care about can’t have a reasonable maximum of happiness and satisfaction with our being in an unhealthy society, so I have a interest in everyone having somewhat the same opportunities I do.

Once again, you are appealing to objective standards by assuming that happiness is a good thing for humans and that a healthy society is an objectively good thing in itself. Even in the physical realm, there is a difference between the perception of good health, based on subjective appearances, and the confirmation of good health, measured by objective medical standards.

In spite of yourself, you recognize the self-evident truth that objective morality exists, both at the individual and societal level. So much so, that even in the process of denying it you end up confirming it against your will.

Comments
re 74, where I wrote,
There are forces (genetic, personal, social) that focus most people’s sense of goodness around a common core.” What I wrote is true.
Stephen wants to know
Did you mean objectively true? (in conformity with objective reality) or subjectively true (“in respect to my overall understanding of who I am, as internally experienced, and who human beings are.”)
First, I'll remind Stephen that he is not quoting me completely: I wrote in 49
[The word “good”] ... means “good in respect to my overall understanding of who I am, as internally experienced, and who human beings are.”
So that phrase was about moral judgments, not about the sentence Stephen is asking me about now. But here are a few thoughts on the issue. We all use an approach informally like science in gaining objective knowledge of the world. We have empirical experiences that at least in theory can be experienced by others, we try to understand those experiences in light of other understanding that we are fairly comfortable with, we verify our understanding with others, we make inferences and create theories for ourself, etc. And like science, we can be wrong. But as long as our knowledge is based on empirical experiences open to others, I would say it was objective knowledge. However, there is some knowledge that is only accessible to me: I might tell people what I think (which is observable, and objective knowledge to others), but no one can look into my mind and see my subjective experiences. That I think hurting people is wrong, or that I love my wife, or that I feel sorry for the homeless guy on the street, are subjective. Although they include objective knowledge, they also include values, principle, moral judgments, etc. that only I can experience. So the subjective and the objective mingle in most of our life. However, going back to "There are forces (genetic, personal, social) that focus most people’s sense of goodness around a common core." I think the social sciences (anthropology, sociology, and psychology) would support that statement. Now there are all sort of qualifications to this statement, both about individuals and societies. It's also an objectively true fact that often people's sense of goodness only extends so far sometimes (family, or local community, or nation), and it's true that most people, some much more than others, behave poorly to some people in some situations and much better in others. But overall, with all these qualifications, my statement is objectively true, as it is supported by a great deal of empirical evidence.jdk
June 6, 2018
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jdk
Hmm. For the record, Stephen, you edited 72 and took out the part that I responded to in 75, so now my 75 makes no sense. That’s a bit confusing.
No edit. You wrote this:
JDK: [I judge that murder is wrong] because my mature sense of love, compassion, and empathy for other human beings is such that I desire for them as much right to life as I desire for myself.
Based on that unedited statement, I asked two questions that are in complete accord with it: What criterion do you use to differentiate between a mature sense of love, compassion, and empathy and an immature sense of love, compassion, and empathy? At what stage of a human fetus’s developmental process would you desire for it the same right to life as you desire for yourself?StephenB
June 6, 2018
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Hmm. For the record, Stephen, you edited 72 and took out the part that I responded to in 75, so now my 75 makes no sense. That's a bit confusing.jdk
June 6, 2018
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Folks, As my handle has come up. Now, notice how the above brims over with the assumption that in our thinking, reading, writing etc we have binding duties of care to truth, right, fairness etc? {As in, exactly as SB pointed out.] Ponder now if such duties as perceived are merely genetically or psychosocially conditioned delusions, and where that leads. First, mind pervaded by delusion, utterly undermining its credibility. Second, what's left is simply an instrument of manipulation using the widespread delusion as a lever of influence. With both in play, absurdity and opening the door to nihilism. We may safely reject such, if necessary using the yardstick case of a RW child kidnapped, sexually assaulted and murdered for someone's sick pleasure as a means of clearing the air of subjectivist or relativist fog. We are morally governed by binding principles that are naturally evident, starting with our minds. This then leads to the question, how does this find its place in a coherent, integrated worldview? Post Hume, that has to be at world-root level, on pain of ungrounded ought . . . see how different the real argument is from the cartoon version that appears above? Now, let the objector provide a viable candidate on comparative difficulties: _____ or else substantiate subjectivism or relativism without incoherence, undermining mind and responsible reason, or opening the door to nihilism _____ . KFkairosfocus
June 6, 2018
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jdk
re 72: I responded to your last question in 68.
No, you didn't, but I will let it go. You have been pretty busy lately. What about my two-part question at 72?StephenB
June 6, 2018
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re 72: I responded to your last question in 68.jdk
June 6, 2018
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SB: You wrote, "what I say is true." Did you mean objectively true? (in conformity with objective reality) or subjectively true (“in respect to my overall understanding of who I am, as internally experienced, and who human beings are.”) jdk
I think empirical evidence exists about the nature of human beings to support my conclusion. There is a difference between objective knowledge of the physical world and the claim that we can have objective knowledge of the metaphysical. Objective moral standards don’t exist, but it is an objectively well-supported conclusion that virtually all people have feelings of love and affection for at least some members of their society, for instance.
I think you must have lost track of the question. When you say "true," do you mean objectively true or subjectively true.
The phrase “in respect to my overall understanding of who I am, as internally experienced, and who human beings are.” was about the word “good”, not about the statement that ““There are forces (genetic, personal, social) that focus most people’s sense of goodness around a common core.” I think that statement is supported by evidence.
You have definitely lost track of the question. Again, when you say true, do you mean objectively true or subjectively true? I have to ask because when you say good, you mean subjectively good.StephenB
June 6, 2018
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asauber: do you not think information about the nature of genetics and the development of human beings from that genetics is scientific knowledge?jdk
June 6, 2018
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JDK:
[I judge that murder is wrong] because my mature sense of love, compassion, and empathy for other human beings is such that I desire for them as much right to life as I desire for myself.
I would ask a two-part question: What criterion do you use to differentiate between a mature sense of love, compassion, and empathy and an immature sense of love, compassion, and empathy? At what stage of a human fetus's developmental process would you desire for it the same right to life as you desire for yourself?StephenB
June 6, 2018
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JDK: I use the word universe to include both the physical universe and whatever metaphysical aspect of the universe that there might be.
Objective morality is not posited as an aspect of the universe, "metaphysical" or otherwise. God is also not part of the universe. When we say "God created the universe" we do not mean to say that God created himself.Origenes
June 6, 2018
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jdk, Your response to me doesn't contain an explanation. Its an irrelevant description of a lot of irrelevancies. Andrewasauber
June 6, 2018
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If morality is objective and universal, what was it doing for the first 13.7+ billion years?Allan Keith
June 6, 2018
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re 59: I think empirical evidence exists about the nature of human beings to support my conclusion. There is a difference between objective knowledge of the physical world and the claim that we can have objective knowledge of the metaphysical. Objective moral standards don't exist, but it is an objectively well-supported conclusion that virtually all people have feelings of love and affection for at least some members of their society, for instance. The phrase "in respect to my overall understanding of who I am, as internally experienced, and who human beings are.” was about the word "good", not about the statement that "“There are forces (genetic, personal, social) that focus most people’s sense of goodness around a common core.” I think that statement is supported by evidence.jdk
June 6, 2018
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re 66: I use the word universe to include both the physical universe and whatever metaphysical aspect of the universe that there might be. My last response to your other point was at 49.jdk
June 6, 2018
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JDK continually argues that the universe has no moral component. He uses the word "universe" 9 times in post #33 and many more times in this thread. However, proponents of objective morality do not argue that the universe has a moral component. Objective morality has no physical properties. Moving on ...
JDK: [I judge that murder is wrong] because my mature sense of love, compassion, and empathy for other human beings is such that I desire for them as much right to life as I desire for myself.
You speak highly of your "mature sense of love, compassion, and empathy for other human beings" but, according to subjective morality this is no better than, let's say, an immature sense of hate towards other human beings. The core concept of subjective morality is that there is not such a thing as a "better moral position." According to subjective morality every moral position is just as good (or as bad) as any other moral position. So, a consequent subjective moralist can only say that he happens to dislike murder, but he cannot say, as you do, that murder is wrong.Origenes
June 6, 2018
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JDK I was responding to this “As I have said, I know the rejoinder is that therefore anything goes, might makes right, etc., but experience shows us that is false.” No that is not our experience but this is a topic that is rather nuanced and i dont have the time to expand on this. Perhaps later tonight. “ “There are forces (genetic, personal, social) that focus most people’s sense of goodness around a common core.” This part doesn’t change that our experience shows us that might makes right is false, is false. So where is the intellectual dishonesty on my part? Vividvividbleau
June 6, 2018
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re 61: the fields of anthropology, sociology, and psychology all empirical study human nature. The explanation starts with the fact that we are all human beings, and share the basic same genetic makeup. However, because we are dependent on learning and have few instincts in comparison to other animals, culture plays a huge part in how our genetic core plays out. For example, all normal human beings raised in a society learn to speak a language as part of normal development. However, the details of that language differ widely, and start to show up very early in life based on what the child hears around them.jdk
June 6, 2018
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No, I was responding to 54.jdk
June 6, 2018
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JDK I was responding to your comment to me in 55. Since my previous comment to you was in 50 I assumed that was what you were commenting on. Vividvividbleau
June 6, 2018
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our shared biological nature
jdk, Do you have a scientific explanation of this nature? Andrewasauber
June 6, 2018
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I didn't respond to 50, vivid., so I don't know what comment you are referring to in 57.jdk
June 6, 2018
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jdk
What I wrote is true.
Do you mean objectively true? (in conformity with objective reality) or subjectively true ("in respect to my overall understanding of who I am, as internally experienced, and who human beings are.”)StephenB
June 6, 2018
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Interesting point, but, to be clear, I am asserting that this core is based on our shared biological nature, not on any outside metaphysical entity or reality. Also, empirical data shows us that this common core expresses itself in a very wide range of ways: it is very flexible, adaptive, and has a strong cultural component.jdk
June 6, 2018
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JDK RE 55 I am having a hard time understanding the relevance of your comment to the post I referred you to ie 2 on this thread. SB calls it the “honest subjectivist” I would add the word “intellectually “ honest subjectivist... “the honest subjectivist would say, “I don’t think murder is immoral (which means objectively moral) but I find it very, very, very distasteful. Still, I am not going to abuse the language by redefining the worlds “bad,” “evil,” “good,” “moral,” or “immoral” in attempt to have it both ways. Those things don’t exist. The universe just is and it has no moral component, nor does any of its creatures.” That is the kind of transparency I would hope for.” Vividvividbleau
June 6, 2018
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most people’s sense of goodness around a common core
jdk, You have just come very close to asserting Natural Law. Andrewasauber
June 6, 2018
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How about some intellectual honesty, Vivid. My full statement said "There are forces (genetic, personal, social) that focus most people’s sense of goodness around a common core." What I wrote is true.jdk
June 6, 2018
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JDK “As I have said, I know the rejoinder is that therefore anything goes, might makes right, etc., but experience shows us that is false. “ Ahhhh no!! Vividvividbleau
June 6, 2018
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Stephen writes, " If God doesn’t exist, then nothing else matters." And to that I profoundly disagree. That is, however, a succinct way of expressing the heart of the matter. God doesn't exist, and things do matter. I choose to believe that, and live by it. But now that things are so clear, I think further discussions of sub-points is not likely to be constructive.jdk
June 6, 2018
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Allan:
I’m beginning to think that there would be no opinion pieces written here if it weren’t for idk, Sev and myself.
The point of those threads is all you have is your misguided opinions with only like-minded people for support.ET
June 6, 2018
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jdk
What you wrote in the OP is just one example after another of the basic issue: your belief that one cannot make an normative statement, be it about love, health, benefits to society, etc., without [invoking] the reality of there being objective standards to which those statements must relate.
Why did you change the word "assume" to to the word "invoke?" Was that an accident or are you dissembling? [a] It is true that one cannot make a normative statement about morality without *assuming* (not invoking) objective standards [b] It is also true that you, yourself, assume objective standards when you make normative statements about morality and [c] I proved that both {[a] and [b] are true with my examples. Perhaps the most persuasive element about my argument (and my examples) is the fact that you steadfastly refuse to address them.
It is this assumption that I disagree with, and it is this issue that I have made some remarks about in past threads, (and quoted again in 33).
But you clearly make *this same assumption* in your arguments even as you claim to disagree with it. That is the point of the post. I think you are just pretending not to grasp the point so that you can keep evading it. On top of that, you have never, in my awareness, presented any arguments against this assumption, even as kf expresses it - except to say that anyone who believes it is dogmatic. That isn't an argument. It is an adhominem attack.
Therefore, addressing each one of your points separately in pointless, as it is the same issue over and over again.
As far as I can tell, you have never addressed any phase of that argument. You have merely said that you disagree with it. We all know that. What we don't know is why. Do you know?
And I’ll note that you don’t actually respond to this main point, as I wrote in 33: if there is not any moral component to the universe, no objective standards, no God, then all that you invoke in your arguments is irrelevant, no matter how many uses of normative language you apply it to.
Is that supposed to be a profound observation of some kind? I already know that and so does everyone else. The point can be made even more simply. If God doesn't exist, then nothing else matters. Are you just now discovering that?StephenB
June 6, 2018
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