Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Jeffrey Shallit Demonstrates Again That He is Clueless About Even Very Basic Design Concepts

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Jeffrey Shallit has commented on his blog about UD’s 500-heads-in-a-row series (see here, here and here).  In his comment Shallit demonstrates that after all these years he remains clueless about even the basic ABCs of design theory.

Before we get to Shallit’s Romper Room errors, let me congratulate him on getting at least something right.  He refers to the concept of Kolmogorov complexity and writes:

If the string is compressible (as 500 consecutive H’s would be) then one can reject the chance hypothesis with high confidence; if the string is, as far as we can see, incompressible, we cannot.

Here Shallit agrees with our own Granville Sewell, who wrote in comment 4 to my “Jerad’s DDS” post:

The reason why 500 straight coins would raise eyebrows, and most other results, while equally improbable, would not, is easy: because “all heads” is simply describable, and most others are not (many would be describable only in 500 bits, by actually listing the result).

I take it that by “compressible” Shallit means the same thing as Sewell’s “simply describable.”

So far so good.  Shallit understands why one would reject the chance hypothesis for 500 heads in a row.  He then falls completely off the rails when he writes:

So Rickert and his defenders are simply wrong. But the ID advocates are also wrong, because they jump from ‘reject the fair coin hypothesis’ to ‘design’. This is completely unsubstantiated. For example, maybe the so-called ‘fair coin’ is actually weighted . . . Or maybe the flipping mechanism is not completely fair . . .

(emphasis added).

Can it really be that Shallit remains utterly clueless about the nature of the abductive inferences at the foundation of design theory?  From this statement one can only conclude that he is.  Shallit makes at least two errors.  Let’s examine them in turn.

Shallit’s first error comes when he states that if one sees 500 heads in a row it is “completely unsubstantiated” to conclude the game is rigged (i.e., to infer design).  This statement is ridiculous.  It is certainly a fact that there are explanations other than design that might possibly explain 500 heads in a row.  But can anyone doubt that “the game has been intentionally rigged” is at least one explanation?  To say that a design conclusion is “completely unsubstantiated” is aggressively stupid.

Perhaps Shallit means that it would be “completely unsubstantiated” to conclude that design – and only design – is the explanation for the 500 heads in a row.  If that’s what he means, he is certainly correct.  He is also certainly attacking a strawman, because no ID proponent has ever, as far as I know, said that when one makes a design inference one is obliged to conclude that only design could have caused the effect.

This is where abductive reasoning comes in.  As the Wikipedia article I linked explains, “In abductive reasoning . . . the premises do not guarantee the conclusion. One can understand abductive reasoning as ‘inference to the best explanation.’”

As has been explained countless times here at UD and other places, the design inference is abductive in nature. It is an inference to the best explanation.  No design theorist claims a design inference is absolutely compelled.  Turning to the 500 heads example, the design theorist says “the game is rigged” is the best explanation.  He does not, as Shallit seems to believe, say that “the game is rigged” is the only possible explanation.

In the 500 heads example one might ask if a design inference is permissible?  Certainly it is.  How could it not be?  This is why Shallit’s “completely unsubstantiated” comment is so silly.   One might ask if the design inference is valid?  It probably is.  From our experience of coin flipping it certainly appears to be the most likely explanation.  One might ask if the design inference is absolutely reliable?  No.  It is only the currently best explanation.  It remains tentative and subject to modification as more data is obtained.

Shallit commits his second error in the context of his alternative explanations to design (weighted coin; unfair mechanism).  Shallit’s seems to believe that his alternative explanations preclude design.  They do not.  The person who rigged the game may have done so through the means of a weighted coin or an unfair mechanism.  Shallit’s alternatives preclude design only if one assumes the coin was not intentionally weighted or that the flipping mechanism was not intentionally unfair.  Surely such an assumption is not required.  Indeed, from what we know about coin flipping in general, it is almost certainly not even warranted.

In  summary, Shallit has demonstrated once again that he does not understand design theory.  At least I hope that is what he has demonstrated, because the alternative is that he does understand design theory and has intentionally misrepresented it.  Charity compels me to conclude that he is clueless and not mendacious.

Comments
Elizabeth, I never used the word random myself, for me the issue is undirected unintelligent processes, and the creative powers Darwin-apologists ascribe to such processes. I don't know if what you are asking for is practical, you cannot expect a creatures which live in vastly different environments to have identical features to our own, our eyes are great for what we need them for, they might not work on an eagle or on an octopus. There is no best design, there are intelligent designs that work for different purposes, and we dont have to reinvent the wheel so to speak, just because an intelligent designer might seek to equip creatures with vision, and this is in fact what we observe, we observe technologies implemented in different organisms which cannot be accounted for in terms of inheritance from a common ancestor. Evolution requires that we believe unguided natural processes just happened to stumble upon the same designs in succession independently. Highly unlikely given undirected natural processes, but practical and consistent from a design perspective (this is what engineers do). I think you missed Reid's point, the fact that I can see your body, is not evidence that you (an intelligent mind) exists, I can only know u exist based on the nature of the physical patterns you induce. Similarly, we can infer and know that a transcendent mind, or a mind responsible for the designs in nature exist, based on the nature of the physical effects we observe.Polanyi
June 27, 2013
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Polanyi: I get out quite a lot :) Many things appear to have evolved more than once. That's not an ad hoc conclusion, it's borne out by the phylogenetics of the features you cite (e.g. eyes), although interesting, some key elements of eyes (opsin for instance) seems to have evolved only once, and early. What I mean is that eyes, having evolved down one lineage, do not suddenly appear in another, in the same evolved form. When we see eyes in two lineages, the evidence is that they evolved down separate lines, often with key differences (note the design of the retina in the mollusc lineage, as opposed to our own). I think you will find if you read the literature carefully that the tree signal remains extremely strong, despite superficially similar functions in different lineages. This is far from the case in human designs, where a solution from one lineage (cameras for instance) is suddenly transplanted, without major modification, into a lineage that had no "ancestral" camera (phones). This pattern is conspicuously absent from the pattern of life. Which doesn not rule out design, of course, but it does say, if there was a designer, he/she/it did not design in the way humans do.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 27, 2013
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Thanks, Polanyi. OK, so "random undirected" simply means "undirected"? I would agree that evolutionary processes are "undirected" in the sense of having nothing driving them beyond the need for the current generation to breed. But the word "random" is either unnecessary (if it just means "undirected") or something that needs addressing. Under many (most?) meanings of "random", evolution is not a random process at all, although a highly stochastic one (but then so are human design processes). This is why it is why coin-flips are largely irrelevant to discussions about whether or not a pattern is designed. The vast majority of natural processes do not produce the independence from prior events that we assume as the "randomness" of a coin-flip. That's why it is so difficult to make true random-number generators!
You should read Thomas Reid, the only evidence we have for the existence of other minds, is the physical effects induced by those minds, we cannot observe intelligence directly, we can only infer it, based on the effects they leave behind. The evidence we have for a transcendent mind is no different from the evidence we have to the existence of embodied minds.
Accepted (at least for the sake of argument), but that is not my point. My point is that in order to have effects, that transcendent mind must move stuff around. As far as we know the way minds produce desgigned artefacts is via the intermediary of muscles and tools. What I want to know is how the postulated transcendent mind that putatively moved the molecules into place to produce certain organisms, or certain features, or certain processes, did so. And I'm not even asking for evidence - I'm asking for some kind of model - or even several. Is the Mind force an additional force to the four fundamental forces of nature, that operates unobserved all the time, to alter the courses of ions and electrons? Or is it an occasional intervening mind that suspends the usual Laws of Nature, in what we would commonly refer to as a "supernatural" or "miraculous" event? I'm interested in what proposals are on the table here. I'm always a bit amazed that ID proponents are not!Elizabeth B Liddle
June 27, 2013
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Elizabeth, The way I understand evolution is as an undirected goal-less process. //and the big hole in the case right now is the idea that a disembodied mind could do the job. We know that embodied minds can. But a disembodied mind, which is what is on offer, lacks a key property.// You should read Thomas Reid, the only evidence we have for the existence of other minds, is the physical effects induced by those minds, we cannot observe intelligence directly, we can only infer it, based on the effects they leave behind. The evidence we have for a transcendent mind is no different from the evidence we have to the existence of embodied minds.Polanyi
June 27, 2013
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Eric:
But go ahead, assume as a premise the very conclusion you’re trying to reach.
Eric, I'm not using it as a premise. I've observed evolutionary processes inventing cool stuff in silico, so I know it works in principle. The same principle has been observed to work in vivo, in lab and in field. That is all relevant evidence when weighing up the probability that evolutionary processes were responsible for inventing cool stuff that we haven't observed it inventing. If we take the two putative mechanisms for biological invention: 1.A disembodied mind-force 2.Evolutionary processes and have to choose between them, then precedent is helpful. I know the second can result in the fabrication of things that solve the problem of surviving and breeding in an environment that provides resources and hazards. I've never seen the first do anything - when a mind is responsible for a designed thing, that designed thing is made using muscles and tools. I'm not therefore rejecting mind, or definitively concluding evolution; I'm trying to explain the case that ID has to put to be competitive with the other postulate on the table! And the big hole in the case right now is the idea that a disembodied mind could do the job. We know that embodied minds can. But a disembodied mind, which is what is on offer, lacks a key property.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 27, 2013
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Hi, Polanyi: How are you defining "random" as in "random, undirected process"? This is not a nitpick - I think the word is at the root of a lot of the misunderstandings (in both directions) between ID proponents and "evolutionists". Could you give me the meaning you intended here?Elizabeth B Liddle
June 27, 2013
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Elizabeth, you also wrote: //Darwinian evolution is a good explanation – evolution, at least by LGT, could not produce anything other than a tree pattern (non-nesting). Design could either be tree-like, but human design has far more non-nesting. Therefore on this basis alone, Darwinian evolution is a better fit to the data.// In the final analysis the hierarchic pattern is nothing like the straightforward witness for organic evolution that is commonly assumed. There are facets of the hierarchy which do not flow naturally from any sort of random undirected evolutionary process. If the [nested] hierarchy suggests any model of nature it is typology[4] and not evolution. How much easier it would be to argue the case for evolution if all nature’s divisions were blurred and indistinct, if the systema naturalae was largely made up of overlapping classes indicative of sequence and continuity. (Denton 1986, 136-137.) mmmPolanyi
June 27, 2013
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Elizabeth, you wrote: //and we don’t see transfers of solutions across lineages – each has to be “invented” from scratch// Come again? The recent wide use of genetic and/or phylogenetic approaches has uncovered diverse examples of repeated evolution of adaptive traits including the multiple appearances of eyes, echolocation in bats and dolphins, pigmentation modifications in vertebrates, mimicry in butterflies for mutualistic interactions, convergence of some flower traits in plants, and multiple independent evolution of particular protein properties. -Pascal-Antoine Christin, et al; "Causes and evolutionary significance of genetic convergence," Trends in Genetics; Vol.26(9), pp. 400-405, 2010 "During my time in the libraries I have been particularly struck by the adjectives that accompany descriptions of evolutionary convergence. Words like, 'remarkable', 'striking', 'extraordinary', or even 'astonishing' and 'uncanny' are common place...the frequency of adjectival surprise associated with descriptions of convergence suggests there is almost a feeling of unease in these similarities. Indeed, I strongly suspect that some of these biologists sense the ghost of teleology looking over their shoulders." (Simon Conway Morris, Life's Solution: Inevitable Humans in a Lonely Universe, pp. 127-128 (Cambridge University Press, 2003).) I think you should get out more. :)Polanyi
June 26, 2013
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Elizabeth:
Good design isn’t evidence for evolution; evolution is capable of good design.
Darwinian evolution doesn't seem to be good at anything except for weeding out the less fit and making the less fit.Joe
June 26, 2013
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Elizabeth:
I didn’t say that life looks like the result of an omnipotent creator. I don’t think it does – it shows consistent signs of retrofitting, rather than advanced planning, and no evidence of applying good solutions from one design lineage to another.
The organisms of today are not the originally designed organisms. And why the "omnipotent"? I smell a strawman.
If your goal was a perfect flying machine, you wouldn’t use evolution.
You wouldn't use darwinian evolution. Intelligent Design Evolution could create a perfect flying machine. So could engineering.
An omnipotent designer, having figured out good lungs (in birds, for instance) could apply them to mammals.
Strawman.
And so we are stuck with our stupid lungs, just as the giraffe is stuck with its stupid laryngeal nerve and we are stuck with our stupid backs.
How are our lungs stupid? How is that nerce stupid? And how are our backs stupid? I see stupid people not taking care of their backs. I see the nerve servicing multiple places along its route. And I also know that nerve length has something to do with timing, which I also know is critical. But anyway, the organisms of today are the result of descent with modification. And both design and darwinian mechanisms were at play (according to ID).Joe
June 26, 2013
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. . . evolution is capable of good design.
Well, that's the whole question at issue, isn't it? But go ahead, assume as a premise the very conclusion you're trying to reach.Eric Anderson
June 26, 2013
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No, you said evolution is “an excellent designer” which apparently designs things poorly? Cant have your cake and eat it too, so poor design and good design is evidence for evolution?
Good design isn't evidence for evolution; evolution is capable of good design. Non-transfer of solutions from one lineage to another is a limitation of evolutionary design, but not of omniscient design, and we don't see transfers of solutions across lineages - each has to be "invented" from scratch. This means that some organisms have less-than-optimal features, but the retrofitting is excellent. Four stars for evolution. Omniscient designers (including us - we can see what we are doing) are better at hybridising designs - hovercraft, Prius cars, Dyson vacuum cleaners, hover mowers etc, but very inefficient optimisers. We can also get locked-in to a rather blinkered way of thinking. Evolution samples a much larger search space so can often come up with solutions that are quite different to the way we had been thinking - assymmetric designs, for instance, in engineering. Four stars for Designers. So no, I don't disagree with Gould - we are just making rather different points. Both methods have their good and less good points. But both are way better than tornadoes in junkyards. One star for Tornados in Junkyard: Like Amazon, I don't allow zero star ratings :))
Bird lungs may be great for what birds need, but it a Darwin-of-the-gaps argument to argue that non-avian lungs are poorly designed for our need, it seems to have worked out pretty well for us, also, our lungs for a part of our speech apparatus. There is nothing wrong with bird brains, birds do fine when them.
Sure, because evolution is a great retrofitter, and, as you say (or imply), if we aren't trying to build a "perfect" something, but merely something that "does fine", cool. That's why it doesn't much matter (although most women would give a lot for a properly designed child-bearing pelvis, and all of us would like backs that aren't a so-far rather crappy retrofit of a back evolved for things used their arms as legs. But I'm not making a "Darwin of the gaps" argument at all. The reason Common Descent looks so persuasive (even if it is Designed Common Descent) is precisely because there is such a strong phylogenetic signal - objective nested hierarchies. Yes, there is some HGT as well as LGT, but the HGT signal is extremely strong. It demands explanation. Darwinian evolution is a good explanation - evolution, at least by LGT, could not produce anything other than a tree pattern (non-nesting). Design could either be tree-like, but human design has far more non-nesting. Therefore on this basis alone, Darwinian evolution is a better fit to the data. But as I keep saying - that doesn't rule out a designer who just liked, for her own reasons, designing along non-overlapping lineages! If I were more convinced by ID on other grounds, I'd be far more persuaded by a model in which the ID set up the prerequisites in which evolution would produce complex and varied life, including intelligent life, than one that tinkered along the way, designing each thing separately, but making it look as though they had evolved!Elizabeth B Liddle
June 26, 2013
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Elizabeth //I didn’t say that life looks like the result of an omnipotent creator.// No, you said evolution is "an excellent designer" which apparently designs things poorly? Cant have your cake and eat it too, so poor design and good design is evidence for evolution? //it shows consistent signs of retrofitting// Intelligent engineers do this all the time, as Dembski explains: We know from experience that when people design things (such as a car engine), they begin with a basic concept and adapt it to different ends. As much as possible, designers piggyback on existing patterns and concepts instead of starting from scratch. (The Design of Life, p. 140). //If your goal was a perfect flying machine, you wouldn’t use evolution.// "perfect"? I have no idea what such a thing would even look like. Also, this is circular, it is far from obvious that such a process is even capable of designing anything capable of taking flight, remember, we are still stuck on fan blades. //Or a great brain with terrible lungs, and a bird-brain with fantastic lungs.// Bird lungs may be great for what birds need, but it a Darwin-of-the-gaps argument to argue that non-avian lungs are poorly designed for our need, it seems to have worked out pretty well for us, also, our lungs for a part of our speech apparatus. There is nothing wrong with bird brains, birds do fine when them.Polanyi
June 26, 2013
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But it is important to keep in mind that it is just that — a label. It doesn’t identify the actual cause; it doesn’t provide one bit of insight into what to expect next time around; it can’t be calculated or put into any kind of proof. There isn’t any force of natural selection. There is no such natural cause.
Yes, there is. Eric, it is possible to infer causation statistically, without knowing the exact pathway that led to a particular outcome. We can say that a vase with a narrow base is more likely to fall and break than one with a large one. Distally, the "cause" of the more frequent breakages of tall narrow vases over short stumpy ones, is their shape. But every single breakage had a different proximal cause, and every single smash was caused by a different cascade of forces and energy. So I really don't think this is a good counter argument. I'm not terribly keen on the phrase "natural selection" because it leads to daft locutions like "NS selects". But what it actually means is that "Nature" selects, in exactly the same way as a breeder selects. A breeder selects the animals with the characteristics she wants to see more of, and breeds from those. "Nature" also selects the animals with the characteristics "she" "wants" "to see more of" and breeds from those. Nature, however, does not do so by shooting the duff ones and taking the good ones to a stud farm. She merely provides a literal landscape in which the ones without certain characteristics fail to survive or breed, while the ones that do have them, do. A human breeder could take a similar shortcut to, for instance, breeding small cats, by, for example, putting a small cat-flap between the male cats and the female cats: small cats could get through and breed; big cats would stay separated. The breeder would have replaced her decision-making with a physical object - a filter, in effect. Nature is the same - it is a filter that filters out the organisms that negotiate her hazards less successfully.
It is just an after-the-fact convenience label.
It's certainly an after-the-fact observation, although it can be predicted, with considerable precision. See Endler's guppies and the Grants' finches.
And, unfortunately, one that typically obscures, rather than enlightens.
Yes, I agree! That's why I substitute the much clumsier but less anthropomorphic; self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 26, 2013
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I didn't say that life looks like the result of an omnipotent creator. I don't think it does - it shows consistent signs of retrofitting, rather than advanced planning, and no evidence of applying good solutions from one design lineage to another. If your goal was a perfect flying machine, you wouldn't use evolution. As you said, it doesn't scale well - you might get a perfect spine on a creature with a really stupid laryngeal nerve, and a terrible spine on a creature with a more sensible laryngeal nerve. Or a great brain with terrible lungs, and a bird-brain with fantastic lungs. An omnipotent designer, having figured out good lungs (in birds, for instance) could apply them to mammals. But evolution can't. And so we are stuck with our stupid lungs, just as the giraffe is stuck with its stupid laryngeal nerve and we are stuck with our stupid backs. But as a retrofitter, and an inventor of new cool features, evolution is awesome. It just can't tranfer these solutions to other lineages, whereas we can.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 26, 2013
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Elizabeth, This is not about "what we need", this is about what evolutionary algorithms can do, (even intelligently designed ones) and what they cannot do, going from fan blades to --> designing engines, is a huge leap, once we use such methods for designing engines, instead of using bulky outdated engineers, you drop me an email. Also, you said "evolution is also an excellent designer" Who to believe? Stephen Gould writes: "ideal [intelligent] design is a lousy argument for evolution, for it mimics the postulated action of an omnipotent creator. Odd arrangements [poor design] and funny solutions are the proof of evolution--paths that a sensible God would never tread" Seems like you guys are directly contradicting each other?Polanyi
June 26, 2013
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Joe @43: Well the less fit die because of something. Some real, physical cause. Can't breathe, runs too slowly, can't fly, has a bad heart, is blind, got caught in a flood, picked up an infection, had a mutation, whatever. And in each and every individual organism's case there is a real, physical, identifiable (if we knew enough) cause. It is true that one could come along after the fact and apply a label to the observation that some creatures died while others lived. And one could even use the English words "natural selection" as the convenient label. But it is important to keep in mind that it is just that -- a label. It doesn't identify the actual cause; it doesn't provide one bit of insight into what to expect next time around; it can't be calculated or put into any kind of proof. There isn't any force of natural selection. There is no such natural cause. It is just an after-the-fact convenience label. And, unfortunately, one that typically obscures, rather than enlightens.Eric Anderson
June 25, 2013
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Ooops, natural selection does something- it eliminates the deficient, ie less fit:
What Darwin called natural selection is actually a process of elimination. Mayr "What Evolution Is" p117
By contrast (to selection), a mere elimination of the less fit might permit the survival of a rather large number of individuals because they have no obvious deficiencies in fitness. Ibid p 118
Joe
June 25, 2013
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Again, thanks for this, Eric, and I have downloaded your 2003 paper. Will respond later (have guests again!)Elizabeth B Liddle
June 25, 2013
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Elizabeth @24:
But the big difference is that because the horse reproduces, we can postulate (indeed see that it is true) that the features that do something serve the purpose of keeping the horse alive and healthy and maximising its chances of producing new horses, and that therefore the horse is likely to be part of an evolving lineage of living things, adapting to its environment over the eons.
Thanks. I understand the theory, so wasn't really looking for a restatement of the idea. Rather, trying to get you to home in on what it is about reproduction that allows the implausible to become plausible. Let's make it a bit simpler for purposes of discussion, and assume we are dealing with one single-celled bacterium. As the bacterium lives its life it might incur changes/mutations in its cellular systems as well as its DNA. Let's focus on the DNA for a moment, as that is where evolutionary theory thinks the rubber meets the road. So as the bacterium carries on with its merry existence it will be regularly snipping, unzipping, copying, and restitching its DNA. There could be mistakes made in the process. There could also be interactions with chemicals ingested from the environment, cosmic ray hits, radiation damage and breakdown, and so on. As a result, the bacterium's DNA might incur mutations. Now, do we expect the bacterium, as it lives its life incurring these occasional mutations, to generate new cellular systems, meaningfully increase the amount of coding in its DNA, and eventually turn into some new creature? Of course not. And why not? Because the odds of the occasional mutations actually resulting in so much change -- and so much specified coordinated change -- is astronomically low. And if the bacterium lives for a 1000 years, our answer doesn't change. And if the bacterium lives for a million years, our answer doesn't change. Now suppose that instead of living a million years the bacterium lives 500,000 years, reproduces one copy of itself, and then promptly dies while the daughter bacterium lives another 500,000 years. Will our answer be any different? Will we expect new systems, meaningful coding changes, a different organism? No. We will still have a bacterium. There is nothing about self-reproduction itself -- as opposed to the bacterium just continuing its existence -- that changes the answer or makes the unlikely likely or the implausible plausible. Now the immediate response of the Darwinist is twofold: (i) the bacterium would likely produce many offspring, rather than one, and (ii) the process of reproduction can produce more errors/mutations. Both of these points are perfectly valid. However, both of them simply go to the number of opportunities available. There is no additional fundamental principle of physics or biochemistry that comes into play in the self-reproduction scenario. All we are talking about is more opportunities to stumble upon a beneficial mutation. This is key. So the skeptical inquirer might look at the awful probability calculations, take into account these additional opportunities for mutations to arise, and quickly realize that it doesn't change the overall calculation. Having all these additional opportunities is but a rounding error in the broader calculation. So the idea of self-replication somehow allowing the implausible to become plausible, the unlikely to become likely, simply is not true. Worse, the incantation of self-reproduction usually functions to obscure the real issues. When questions arise about whether natural processes like mutations in DNA could give rise to new cellular systems, new body plans, new organisms, the response is "Well, normally they wouldn't; but with self-reproduction it becomes probable." No it doesn't. And stating that it does just obscures the actual underlying physical processes that are at work and turns what should be careful analysis into some vague notion of "variation plus natural selection," which is just a restatement of the theory. ----- Nota bene: Finally, natural selection isn't of any help in answering this question. Even if we concede (apart from the other issue we are discussing on this thread about what NS is or does) that natural selection is meaningful, it only preserves; it doesn't create. So the question about the origin of new systems, plans, organisms must remain in the realm of chance changes and mutations.Eric Anderson
June 25, 2013
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Elizabeth:
The other requirement is of course variance generation, where heritable traits lead to differential reproductive success.
The other requirement is of course the varianve generation MUST BE a happenstance occurrence. Dariwn's concept is differential reproduction due to heritable random (as in chance/ happenstance) variation. However there can be differential reproduction due to sheer dumb luck also.Joe
June 25, 2013
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Dr Liddle,
The thing is, Upright Biped, is that I don’t accept your premise.
John von Neumann predicted what would be required for open-ended evolution prior to our elucidation of DNA and the organic replication system. The subsequent discoveries only fulfilled his prediction. The fact that no one can even conceive of an alternate system is something that should be addressed in earnest.
I don’t think that self-replication does require “a system of symbols and rules instantiated in matter”.
Yes, I am familiar with your argumentation:
UB: In this material universe, is it even conceivably possible to record transferable information without utilizing an arrangement of matter in order to represent that information? (by what other means could it be done?) If 1 is true, then is it even conceivably possible to transfer that information without a second arrangement of matter (a protocol) to establish the relationship between representation and what it represents? (how could such a relationship be established in any other way?) If 1 and 2 are true, then is it even conceivably possible to functionally transfer information without the irreducibly complex system of these two arrangements of matter (representations and protocols) in operation? - - - - - - - Dr Liddle: 1. No 2. No 3. I don’t see why such an arrangement should be “irreducibly complex”.
The problem Dr Liddle is that you have not made yourself aware of the issues involved.
...this probably isn’t the thread to discuss this issue. As I said, I’d be delighted if you’d start a thread at TSZ, or possibly we can continue this another time here.
I have my own ideas about how to continue the conversation. In any case, I'm sure we'll have the opportunity to continue in one location or another.Upright BiPed
June 25, 2013
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Jun 25 - 1:01 am Polanyi:
Elizabeth: //why not extrapolate from the fact that we can get evolutionary algorithms to invent things that human designers can’t, that evolution is also an excellent designer?// Wow really? From Wiki: “Genetic algorithms do not scale well with complexity. That is, where the number of elements which are exposed to mutation is large there is often an exponential increase in search space size. This makes it extremely difficult to use the technique on problems such as designing an engine, a house or plane. In order to make such problems tractable to evolutionary search, they must be broken down into the simplest representation possible. Hence we typically see evolutionary algorithms encoding designs for fan blades instead of engines, building shapes instead of detailed construction plans, airfoils instead of whole aircraft designs. The second problem of complexity is the issue of how to protect parts that have evolved to represent good solutions from further destructive mutation, particularly when their fitness assessment requires them to combine well with other parts.” So how did we get from fan blades to evolution can design better things than intelligence can?
This is a perfectly valid criticism of GAs for solving problems WE want them to solve. The way we set up GAs is to give them an environment in which the best way of solving THEIR problem (to exploit the resources of the environment so as to better to survive and breed), also solves OURS. But they cheat! They find clever ways to exploit the environment that we did not intend and which suit them fine but not us! But on nature that is no-one's problem. All that matters is that the environment is utilised efficiently by whatever clever tricks work.
// the prerequisite for evolution (self-reproduction) is present in biological organisms// This is also false. “The selection principle of Darwin’s theory is not sufficient to explain the evolution of living organisms if one starts with entities having only the property to reproduce and mutate. At least one more theoretical principle is needed, a principle which would explain how self-reproducing entities could give rise to organisms with the variability and evolutionary possibilities which characterize living organisms” ~ Barricelli, “Numerical Testing of Evolution,” 170–171.
I didn't say it was "sufficient " - I said it was a "prerequisite". The other requirement is of course variance generation, where heritable traits lead to differential reproductive success.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 25, 2013
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Eric: Thanks for the links - appreciated. Will respond later.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 25, 2013
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Elizabeth: //why not extrapolate from the fact that we can get evolutionary algorithms to invent things that human designers can’t, that evolution is also an excellent designer?// Wow really? From Wiki: "Genetic algorithms do not scale well with complexity. That is, where the number of elements which are exposed to mutation is large there is often an exponential increase in search space size. This makes it extremely difficult to use the technique on problems such as designing an engine, a house or plane. In order to make such problems tractable to evolutionary search, they must be broken down into the simplest representation possible. Hence we typically see evolutionary algorithms encoding designs for fan blades instead of engines, building shapes instead of detailed construction plans, airfoils instead of whole aircraft designs. The second problem of complexity is the issue of how to protect parts that have evolved to represent good solutions from further destructive mutation, particularly when their fitness assessment requires them to combine well with other parts." So how did we get from fan blades to evolution can design better things than intelligence can? // the prerequisite for evolution (self-reproduction) is present in biological organisms// This is also false. "The selection principle of Darwin’s theory is not sufficient to explain the evolution of living organisms if one starts with entities having only the property to reproduce and mutate. At least one more theoretical principle is needed, a principle which would explain how self-reproducing entities could give rise to organisms with the variability and evolutionary possibilities which characterize living organisms" ~ Barricelli, “Numerical Testing of Evolution,” 170–171.Polanyi
June 25, 2013
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Upright Biped:
Isn’t it interesting that one would, with apparent intellectual satisfaction, wallow in the explanation of self-replication, knowing it was not capable of explaining itself, while simultaneously knowing its specifically made possible by a semiotic system – a system of symbols and rules instantiated in matter.
The thing is, Upright Biped, is that I don't accept your premise. I don't think that self-replication does require "a system of symbols and rules instantiated in matter". It's possible you are correct - that the simplest possible self-replicator did require such a thing - that there is no simpler self-replicator than with the full DNA-tRNA-amino acid coding system, but I do not assume you are. So I do not "simultaneously know" this. But this probably isn't the thread to discuss this issue. As I said, I'd be delighted if you'd start a thread at TSZ, or possibly we can continue this another time here.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 24, 2013
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In the context of trying to decide whether a complex specified system might be designed, there is great irony in this kind of statement (Elizabeth @13), together with the repeated references to the supposedly wondrous power of evolutionary algorithms:
I reject design because I think we have an alternative hypothesis that fits the data better – has more evidence to support it.
More evidence to support it? What a hoot! Let's see . . . On the one side we have literally billions of complex specified functional systems, all of which are known to arise from intelligence and none of which have ever been known to arise from purely natural processes. Further, although these systems do not yet rise to the level of sophistication of what we see in living systems, many of these designed systems do in fact resemble living systems in terms of their distributed structure, use of code, algorithms, forward-looking protocols, functional coordination of complex parts, and so on. On the other side we have a handful of evolutionary algorithms all of which it is conceded were themselves designed, and none of which produces anything that even slightly resembles what we see in living systems and what would be required for life. To say that the latter constitutes "more evidence" than the former is an astounding position to take and smacks more of a commitment to a particular answer than an objective review of the weight of the evidence.Eric Anderson
June 24, 2013
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Hi Elizabeth Liddle, I typed "Another question: Why cannot they solve problems which humans cannot? Why did you even type this in the first place?" It should be "Why can they...". Sorry about that. I was going to interpret your statement as "Evolutionary algorithms show that some things surpass our problem solving capabilities." But I just wanted to make sure if this was a correct interpretation to your statement. This was the reason for the last question.seventrees
June 24, 2013
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Greetings everyone. While reading the comments, I saw this: Eric Anderson (EA) to Elizabeth Liddle (EL)
You keep talking about the alleged evidence you have for evolution bringing about what we see in life. Yet the only evidence you seem to produce is (i) evolutionary algorithms (which you acknowledge are designed) can produce some simple stuff that virtually never approximates anything even close to real biology, and (ii) living systems exist and adapt.
EL's answer to EA:
My point about evolutionary algorithms (which work on exactly the principles postulated for biological evolution) is that they can solve problems that humans can’t. From this we can conclude that in principle the Darwinian evolutionary mechanism (my emphasis) can result in [virtual] organisms that evolve adaptive mechanisms enabling them to survive and thrive in their virtual environment.
If I am not mistaken, maintenance is a subset of adaptation in living systems. My question is how does maintenance occur when a mind or the effects of a mind are ruled out? In other words, how can mindlessness achieve this? (An example to what I mean by effects of the mind is some thing like programming. Coding to achieve certain results when certain conditions occur). Another question: Why cannot they solve problems which humans cannot? Why did you even type this in the first place?seventrees
June 24, 2013
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Dr Liddle: I completely accept that it might be that a deity designer/agent had to “plant” as it were, the first simple self-replicators in order to make evolution produce the array of living things that evolved from them
If you accept that as a live possibility, then your position to beseech your opponents is somewhat diminished, is it not? It’s one thing to argue for a position that’s at least capable of explaining what has to be explained. It’s quite another thing when you have to leave the big pieces on the table because your position ran out of gas right after racking up all the points that weren’t even in question. Your argument becomes a suggestion; a personal preference.
Eric: Do you think self-replication has some other important property that would allow us to conclude, say, that a horse is not designed… Dr Liddle: Yes… (EDIT: Darwinian sales pitch to follow - the power, the glory of what can be accomplished when a system of symbols is instantiated in matter) Eric: If so, please spell it out. If not, please stop with this red herring about self-replication making things possible. Dr Liddle: Well, as I say, it isn’t a red herring. It’s the Whole Point… It’s the Main Banana.
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Dr Liddle (elsewhere): I have never, ever, suggested that you could produce a system of self-replicators from a system of non-self-replicators by Darwinian evolution. If you thought I suggested such a thing, either I mistyped, or you misread… Clearly it would be an absurd claim, because you have to have self-replicators before you can have Darwinian evolution. By definition.
Isn't it interesting that one would, with apparent intellectual satisfaction, wallow in the explanation of self-replication, knowing it was not capable of explaining itself, while simultaneously knowing its specifically made possible by a semiotic system - a system of symbols and rules instantiated in matter.Upright BiPed
June 24, 2013
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