Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Jeffrey Shallit Demonstrates Again That He is Clueless About Even Very Basic Design Concepts

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Jeffrey Shallit has commented on his blog about UD’s 500-heads-in-a-row series (see here, here and here).  In his comment Shallit demonstrates that after all these years he remains clueless about even the basic ABCs of design theory.

Before we get to Shallit’s Romper Room errors, let me congratulate him on getting at least something right.  He refers to the concept of Kolmogorov complexity and writes:

If the string is compressible (as 500 consecutive H’s would be) then one can reject the chance hypothesis with high confidence; if the string is, as far as we can see, incompressible, we cannot.

Here Shallit agrees with our own Granville Sewell, who wrote in comment 4 to my “Jerad’s DDS” post:

The reason why 500 straight coins would raise eyebrows, and most other results, while equally improbable, would not, is easy: because “all heads” is simply describable, and most others are not (many would be describable only in 500 bits, by actually listing the result).

I take it that by “compressible” Shallit means the same thing as Sewell’s “simply describable.”

So far so good.  Shallit understands why one would reject the chance hypothesis for 500 heads in a row.  He then falls completely off the rails when he writes:

So Rickert and his defenders are simply wrong. But the ID advocates are also wrong, because they jump from ‘reject the fair coin hypothesis’ to ‘design’. This is completely unsubstantiated. For example, maybe the so-called ‘fair coin’ is actually weighted . . . Or maybe the flipping mechanism is not completely fair . . .

(emphasis added).

Can it really be that Shallit remains utterly clueless about the nature of the abductive inferences at the foundation of design theory?  From this statement one can only conclude that he is.  Shallit makes at least two errors.  Let’s examine them in turn.

Shallit’s first error comes when he states that if one sees 500 heads in a row it is “completely unsubstantiated” to conclude the game is rigged (i.e., to infer design).  This statement is ridiculous.  It is certainly a fact that there are explanations other than design that might possibly explain 500 heads in a row.  But can anyone doubt that “the game has been intentionally rigged” is at least one explanation?  To say that a design conclusion is “completely unsubstantiated” is aggressively stupid.

Perhaps Shallit means that it would be “completely unsubstantiated” to conclude that design – and only design – is the explanation for the 500 heads in a row.  If that’s what he means, he is certainly correct.  He is also certainly attacking a strawman, because no ID proponent has ever, as far as I know, said that when one makes a design inference one is obliged to conclude that only design could have caused the effect.

This is where abductive reasoning comes in.  As the Wikipedia article I linked explains, “In abductive reasoning . . . the premises do not guarantee the conclusion. One can understand abductive reasoning as ‘inference to the best explanation.’”

As has been explained countless times here at UD and other places, the design inference is abductive in nature. It is an inference to the best explanation.  No design theorist claims a design inference is absolutely compelled.  Turning to the 500 heads example, the design theorist says “the game is rigged” is the best explanation.  He does not, as Shallit seems to believe, say that “the game is rigged” is the only possible explanation.

In the 500 heads example one might ask if a design inference is permissible?  Certainly it is.  How could it not be?  This is why Shallit’s “completely unsubstantiated” comment is so silly.   One might ask if the design inference is valid?  It probably is.  From our experience of coin flipping it certainly appears to be the most likely explanation.  One might ask if the design inference is absolutely reliable?  No.  It is only the currently best explanation.  It remains tentative and subject to modification as more data is obtained.

Shallit commits his second error in the context of his alternative explanations to design (weighted coin; unfair mechanism).  Shallit’s seems to believe that his alternative explanations preclude design.  They do not.  The person who rigged the game may have done so through the means of a weighted coin or an unfair mechanism.  Shallit’s alternatives preclude design only if one assumes the coin was not intentionally weighted or that the flipping mechanism was not intentionally unfair.  Surely such an assumption is not required.  Indeed, from what we know about coin flipping in general, it is almost certainly not even warranted.

In  summary, Shallit has demonstrated once again that he does not understand design theory.  At least I hope that is what he has demonstrated, because the alternative is that he does understand design theory and has intentionally misrepresented it.  Charity compels me to conclude that he is clueless and not mendacious.

Comments
Elizabeth, also see the William Provine quote here: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/natural-selection-redux/#comment-374912Eric Anderson
June 24, 2013
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Elizabeth @25: Thanks for the question -- it is an interesting issue. Regarding NS, I've addressed it in detail elsewhere, so I hope you won't mind a link rather than me retyping. Check the following recent thread in particular: https://uncommondescent.com/news/video-biologist-douglas-axe-on-challenges-to-darwinian-evolution/#comment-451109 Also, scroll down to Box's question @63 (essentially the same question as yours above), and my reply @66. There are a couple of brief later comments in the thread, as well as a link to my old essay responding to the TalkOrigins FAQ on Natural Selection. ----- This thread is also somewhat relevant, though focused more on the abiogenesis situation, which I appreciate you are punting on for the time being. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/coordinated-complexity-the-key-to-refuting-postdiction-and-single-target-objections/#comment-422239 (OT, but you might also be interested in comment #9 to that thread.)Eric Anderson
June 24, 2013
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Lizze, Why don't you just provide the peer-reviewed papers that demonstrate natural selection actually doing something? Differential reproduction due to heritable happenstance variation just doesn't seem to have any power at all.Joe
June 24, 2013
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Elizabeth:
My point about evolutionary algorithms (which work on exactly the principles postulated for biological evolution)
That is false. Supposedly biological evolution doesn't have any goals.
is that they can solve problems that humans can’t.
Unfortunately that has never been tested. Not only that the algorithm is a tool used by humans. IOW it is just a human extension.
From this we can conclude that in principle the Darwinian evolutionary mechanism can result in [virtual] organisms that evolve adaptive mechanisms enabling them to survive and thrive in their virtual environment.
That is incorrect as the two are not connected. EAs and GAs do not represent darwinian evolution.
We also now that these adaptive features include irreducibly complex features that not only do not work when any part is removed (Behe’s original IC definition) but also evolve via pathways in which there are many neutral or deleterious steps.
Then why isn't that in any peer-reviewed journal? How has Behe missed it? Therefore we no, in principle, that given a Darwinian capable population, precisely the things that people say Darwinian processes cannot do, they do. Well, Lizzie, you don't know what darwinian processes entail. So that is a big issue.
That doesn’t mean that we cannot conclude ID (and as I keep saying, I’m not arguing that there was no ID, nor even that we cannot conclude ID) – it just means that the specific argument that Darwinian mechanisms cannot result in novel and creative solutions to the problems of surviving in an environment that are actually beyond the capacity of intelligent human beings to solve is false. They can.
Reference please. And again you don't seem to understand the debate. ID is OK with organisms evolving by design- just like GAs and EAs-> Intelligent Design Evolution. As for your "main banana", well there isn't any evidence for it and nothing that demonstrates simple self-replicators can become anything else. As a matter of fact we have evidence that even given a self-sustained replication, nothing new evolves. And AGAIN, if the OoL was designed then the inference would be organisms were designed to evolve and evolved by design. Why is it that you choose to be ignorant of that?Joe
June 24, 2013
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Eric Anderson @ 18
Eric: Please stop referring to the operation of systems in organisms as being evidence for what evolution can do. The entire question is whether they came about without design, so referring to them as evidence is self-referential.
By the same token, shouldn't you stop referring to the fact that human designs are similar to some biological features as evidence for intelligent design. The whole question is how did humans (and other life) come about - by design or by step-wise evolution from simpler precursors that lacked the capacity to design things. If humans did evolve from simpler precursors, then it would be no surprise that human design is similar to some aspects of biology, because our capacity for design derives from an evolutionary, biological architecture. So, sure, the similarities between human design and biology might, by analogy, support the idea of intelligent design of life. On the other hand, such similarities might support the idea that the human capacity for design is an outgrowth of an evolutionary biological process. Therefore, such similarities don't really help us decide between intelligent design and unguided evolution.CLAVDIVS
June 24, 2013
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Eric, just before I sign off for a bit (yes, I will!), I've notice that on several posts you've made in the past, you have said that "Natural Selection doesn't do anything". I'm not sure why you think this, although it's possible that you are taking the expression. which was only an anthropomorphic metaphor by Darwin, by analogy with selective breeding, too literally. Incidentally Meyer has a nice description of how it works, and its relationship with the metaphor, in his new book. But I'm still puzzled, because I assumed that like most ID proponents (including Meyer), you accepted that "microevolution" occurred - and of course, "microevolution" is a perfectly good example of "natural selection", as termed by Darwin! Is it your position that there really is no such thing as Natural Selection, and that "descent with modification" does nothing at all? Or is it simply that, like Meyer and Behe, you think it has some limits?Elizabeth B Liddle
June 24, 2013
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Eric:
Please stop referring to the operation of systems in organisms as being evidence for what evolution can do. The entire question is whether they came about without design, so referring to them as evidence is self-referential.
Sorry, I'm not sure what comment of mine you are referring to here. Could you quote it?
And, yes, the fact that things like evolutionary algorithms, even with their very modest results to date, required designers to set up is in fact evidence that such systems require design.
Well, I didn't say it wasn't. But I did say that that would be a different argument.
You keep talking about the alleged evidence you have for evolution bringing about what we see in life. Yet the only evidence you seem to produce is (i) evolutionary algorithms (which you acknowledge are designed) can produce some simple stuff that virtually never approximates anything even close to real biology, and (ii) living systems exist and adapt.
My point about evolutionary algorithms (which work on exactly the principles postulated for biological evolution) is that they can solve problems that humans can't. From this we can conclude that in principle the Darwinian evolutionary mechanism can result in [virtual] organisms that evolve adaptive mechanisms enabling them to survive and thrive in their virtual environment. We also now that these adaptive features include irreducibly complex features that not only do not work when any part is removed (Behe's original IC definition) but also evolve via pathways in which there are many neutral or deleterious steps. Therefore we no, in principle, that given a Darwinian capable population, precisely the things that people say Darwinian processes cannot do, they do. Yes, they are designed, but when we design them, what we do is design an environment that is the counterpart to a natural environment. We also of course design their reproductive machinery (although we can also let this evolve to be more efficient - I have done this myself). That doesn't mean that we cannot conclude ID (and as I keep saying, I'm not arguing that there was no ID, nor even that we cannot conclude ID) - it just means that the specific argument that Darwinian mechanisms cannot result in novel and creative solutions to the problems of surviving in an environment that are actually beyond the capacity of intelligent human beings to solve is false. They can. However, that still leaves us with the issue of how those Darwinian capable-self-replicators came about.
Finally, this self-reproduction red herring has been addressed too many times to count.
That's because it isn't a red herring.
What is it about self-reproduction that makes the implausible plausible, the unlikely likely?
The fact that if a think self-replicates, it can evolve, and we therefore have an alternative explanation for how it came to do what it does. Organisms are produced by other organisms, and we know they adapt by means of evolutionary mechanisms. Man-made things (apart from virtual critters in evolutionary algorithms ) do not reproduce, and therefore cannot evolve. So if we see a designed-looking thing that looks well-fitted with features that enable to survive and reproduce in its environment, we can postulate that it evolved. If it looks designed and well-fitted with features that look as though they do something, even if we do not know what, but does not reproduce, we can infer with high probability that it was designed.
The only thing self-reproduction does is increase the probabilistic resources, and it is a rounding error in the broader scheme of things.
No, it does a lot more than that. If it is a member of a population that replicates with heritable variance in reproductive success in the current environment, that population will adapt to its environment by evolving neat ways to exploit the environmental resources and avoid its threats. This is simply because variants that reproduce more successfully will become more prevalent in the population. We know this works - we can see it happening in the lab and in the field, we can see incipient speciation, even, in real time; we know it happens when we do it in silico, and we can observe evidence of it in the form of phylogenies both morphological and genetic. What we don't know yet (if we ever will) how those first self-replicators formed, so that is still a point where a designer may be the best explanation, and in any case, it may be that an interventionist designer was involved at lots of points; my point is simply that to conclude a designer from the inadequacy of evolution to "design" things is not justified. Evolution in principle is remarkably good at designing things, which is why we use evolutionary algorithms when we get stuck. My position is that the reason evolved things look designed is that there really is a pattern that says something special happened. I just don't thing that the special thing had to be intentional design. I think evolution, while not intentional, is a remarkably creative, even "intelligent" system. In fact, as a neuroscientist, I'd say our brains operate in a very similar way (with one big exception).
Do you think self-replication has some other important property that would allow us to conclude, say, that a horse is not designed, but that the Antikythera mechanism is?
Yes, see above :) First of all, I agree that those two things share some important properties. I am not one of those ID proponents who say there is nothing special about a horse. There is, and one of the special things about it is shared with the Antikythera mechanism - it has features that seem to do something that serves some purpose. But the big difference is that because the horse reproduces, we can postulate (indeed see that it is true) that the features that do something serve the purpose of keeping the horse alive and healthy and maximising its chances of producing new horses, and that therefore the horse is likely to be part of an evolving lineage of living things, adapting to its environment over the eons. This option is not open to us for the Antikythera mechanism, which in any case is much cruder than the horse, beautiful though it is. It clearly does not serve its own purpose of surviving or breading, because it scarely survives and does not breed. So the best explanation is that it was made by an evolved thing to serve the purposes of the evolved thing. A possibly telling note: When we see a beautiful flower in a shop, that we think at first is real, but find on close inspection that it is artificial, why do we conclude it is "designed" (by a silk flower artist) rather than "natural"? Because it is less complex :) I think evolution is way cleverer than human designers, even the crude evolution we make happen in computers. However, I completely accept that it might be that a deity had to "plant" as it were, the first simple self-replicators in order to make evolution produce the array of living things that evolved from them, just as evolutionary algorithm writers have to start with a simple population that does no more than the minimum to breed. But it's amazing how rapidly they evolve tricks!
If so, please spell it out. If not, please stop with this red herring about self-replication making things possible.
Well, as I say, it isn't a red herring. It's the Whole Point. It's what Darwin's idea actually was. It's the entire basis of evolutionary biology. You may think it is fallacious, but it is certainly not a Red Herring! It's the Main Banana.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 24, 2013
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A resolution of the 'all-heads paradox'keiths
June 24, 2013
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FWIW, Severely biased coins are considered rare: You can load dice, you can't bias coins And as I said, the fair coin hypothesis is a starting given, at issue is whether a chance process is the cause of the all heads configuration. I never said that the coins were tossed. That is a misunderstanding which is an honest misreading of what I wrote.scordova
June 24, 2013
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Unfortunately I've lost the link, but I made half a transcript. It was posted here, and it was one in which Demski had to skype his contribution, as he was unable to travel. I didn't finish the transcript, then I couldn't find the link to finish it. But I do have the half transcript! Here it is (someone may recognise it and produce the link):
I want to talk to you today about Intelligent Design [unclear] the debate on Origins, and really describe the state of play – where are we in the culture on these things. If you listen to somebody like Kenneth Miller, for instance, an anti-Intelligent Design person, he will say that Intelligent Design “collapsed” (that’s his term) back in 2005, the Kitzmuller Dover trial, now I think that’s a mainly a rhetorical flourish on his part, the research continues very well, I would say. In fact I would say we had the stronger argument, and this is across the board, both regarding the atheistic evolutionists, theistic evolutionists, and I’d say even with the Young Earth Creationists, unfortunately I think there are two streams of Young Earth Creationism. There’s one that sees Intelligent Design as an ally, and tries to understand the nature of the Intelligence that’s there, and there’s another that sees it as a competitor, and I’ll get into that in a little bit, but I think we’ve got the better argument, I’ll say something about why I think we do, but the challenge we face it seems to me is that even if you have the better argument you still have to sell the argument, you still have to get people to accept it, and there’s a lot that stands in the way of that, it seems to me, in our culture, there’s an old New Yorker cartoon, that shows an attorney with a client across from him, and the attorney tells the client, “you’ve an excellent case, Mr Jones, now, how much justice can you afford?” And I think that’s really the challenge, we have the case, but getting the case out there, getting final acceptance, is going to be difficult. So let me just back up a little bit, just to say a bit about Intelligent Design, what is it, what isn’t it, and why I think we are in a good place, intellectually, and scientifically, on this topic, and then some of the challenges we face, so, what is Intelligent Design? If I give you a one-sentence definition, it’s that things are so complicated that we have no idea how it might have been produced, therefore God did it. No that’s not the definition! [laughter] The definition in fact is this: Intelligent Design is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of design, sorry, I’m distracted! Intelligent Design is the study of patterns in nature that are best explained as the products of intelligence. Let me repeat that: Intelligent Design is the study of patterns in nature that are best explained as the products of intelligence. Now the reason I gave you that funny definition at the start is this has been journalistic boilerplate for the last twenty years, so complicated, can’t understand it in scientific terms, therefore God did it. That’s what Intelligent Design is. That’s precisely what Intelligent Design is not. It’s not that this is an argument from ignorance, it’s precisely because what we know about biological systems, and know about the logic of working with the statistics and information involved in these systems that we have some positive knowledge about these systems being a product of design, so it’s not an argument from ignorance, that’s what my definition stresses: the study of patterns in nature that are best explained as the products of intelligence. Now, when you look at that definition, actually there are many things that fall under it already, well-established special sciences, forensic science, photography, random number generation, archaeology- is that an arrow-head or a random chunk of rock?Is that a burial mound, or just a randomly formed mound? So these are all questions that we pose in many special areas – we in fact pose that even to keep science honest, so if you think for instance of data falsification in science, data falsification, plagiarism, all these things are actually big problems in science, there are tremendous incentives to get work published, and to get research grants, and one way to expedite that is by falsifying your results, making it seem like you are doing much better and more interesting research than you actually are, and you know, how do you keep people honest? Well, that’s by looking for certain patterns of cheating, that can arise, in fact we see this all over the place, so credit cards, I mean how often do you get some text message that’s asking whether you made a certain purchase because of all these pattern checkers that are looking for divergences from your usual buying behaviour. So these sorts of methods for design detection, these sort of task of sifting intelligence from natural causes, has been around for a long time, many well-developed areas of knowledge, science, are devoted to this, but things get controversial when you start applying this to the natural sciences, why is that? Well the question is, who or what would the intelligence be in that case, it’s one thing to be looking for human intelligence, or even extra-terrestrial intelligence, the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence, that would be an example of an Intelligent Design research program, and yet, even there, if you’re a materialistic scientist, you’ll say that well, that alien intelligence, if it exists, evolved by some sort of naturalistic Darwinian, presumably Darwinian, means. But if, life itself, or the universe itself gives evidence – I stress that word evidence, because that’s what we are looking for, evidence of design, evidence of intelligence, then who or what could that intelligence be? And very quickly, we are pushed to the realm of theology, at that point, because such an intelligence could not be an evolved intelligence, and from a materialistic perspective, that’s what intelligence has to be, intelligence has to be an evolutionary afterthought, it has to be something that’s the product of natural forces, and history, given enough time, sifted through some sort of evolutionary mechanism, and out come beings like ourselves who can then discuss the relative merits of intelligent design and evolutionary theory. That’s what it is from the evolutionary vantage. From an Intelligent Design perspective, I would say, that conclusion is, it, it’s not, that is not the only conclusion, and there are different options, Intelligent Design says there are these patterns that could be pointing us to intelligence, only look at nature, maybe it gives no evidence of intelligence, but it might be that it does, I think this has been one of the fallacies of criticisms of Intelligent Design, that somehow Intelligent Design shoehorns our inductive and inferential processes into forcing there to be design in nature. It doesn’t. Basically it says that there are these patterns that reliably signal intelligence, and what happens if we should find them in biological systems, it may be that we don’t find them, but in fact it seems that we are. Now if we are, and if these are reliable patterns of intelligence, what conclusions can we draw, and as I said, it seems that this very quickly pushes us to theological conclusions, because who or what could that designer be. I don’t think we are going to get from this sort of a design argument, design inference, the infinite personal transcendental creator God of Christianity, logic won’t take you there, but it will take you to an intelligence of tremendous capacities, tremendous technological innovation, which is well beyond anything that human engineers have come up with or are likely to come up with. So that’s, so Intelligent Design is getting us some distance toward theology, it’s saying that the materialist program can’t work, that the idea that the material world is just closed to any sort of evidence of intelligence, that won’t work, it’s also isn’t going the route of the theistic evolutionists which basically says that when we look at science, look at nature, that any sort of design there is undetectable, scientifically, it’s a bit like, Ken Miller will say that, that design is scientifically undetectable (if it is, how does he know?), will say we are arguing that it is detectable, well, what you detect then, is the work of an intelligence in a finite, materially embodied, thing, like ourselves, or the universe, or various structures within the universe, and when you look at that, these systems, they’re finite material objects, and how do you get to infinite personal transcendent creator God from looking at the design of finite material objects? There’s really no, I would say, inferential process that takes you there, yet it takes you some distance, it takes you to an intelligence, a marvellous that’s responsible for these things. And that becomes a work …a theological work of integration, to say well how does the creator God that we know from Christianity that relates to this Intelligence. I stress that because I am talking at an ETS meeting, and I want to say that Intelligent Design is not just a re-christianated (?) form of natural theology. Natural theology, if you think of William Paley’s natural theology, subtitle evidences for the existence and attributes of the deity from the appearances of nature, so he’s trying to argue for the existence of God, and the attributes of God, the … the goodness, the power of God, all these attributes, how does he get there? By looking at the appearances of nature. So he’s really trying to go the full route. Intelligent Design isn’t trying to do that. It’s trying to be, in the first instance, a scientific program that looks for evidence of intelligence, in the universe at large, especially in biological systems, that’s where most of the action seems to be, most of the controversy, evidence of intelligence in biological systems, and really leave it there, and allow theology to do its proper work. So, I think it really is calling for work of integration, rather than, if you will, a full concordism, or basically trying to hand off to science what basically has in the past been the work of theology. So I think that, in a nutshell, is what Intelligent Design basically is. Now let me say a little bit about why I think we have the better argument, ok, why I think the program actually is thriving as an intellectual and scientific project. Let me just review some of my own work in this area. I came into this not because I wanted to make the world safe from Darwinism, or because I had these grand aspirations to be an apologist, in fact I’ve had an interest in apologetics ever since my conversion back in 1979,1980, but that wasn’t really what got me going, in this field, it was really during my PhD work in mathematics in the University of Chigago, that I got into this whole question of randomness, the nature of randomness, how do we know something’s random, what does it mean for something to be random. And I found that it does not really make sense, randomness doesn’t really make sense as a concept in and of itself. It only makes sense as a negation of non-randomness. We see patterns, and when we see patterns, we eliminate randomness. We can never be sure that something is random. I could show you, if I were to give one of my powerpoint presentations, what looks like a random inkblot, and then if you see it in a certain way, you’ll see that it’s a cow looking at you, and all of us have this experience, we are looking at something and it could be some random assembly and then you look at it the right way, and all of a sudden you realise that, oh, that’s a fish, that’s a 3D illusion, that’s a dinosaur running at you or something. And once you see it, you don’t unsee it again. And that’s the nature of randomness, there’s this sense of patternlessness, until we see the pattern. And once we see the salient pattern, then we don’t unsee it, then it becomes non-random. This has been the problem with random number generators, traditionally, where it seems to pass all these randomness tests, and then you come up with a new randomness test, then it doesn’t pass it any more. Years and years ago, there was something called a linear congruential generator, and when you form that generator, when you put the numbers that were being generated in triplets, and mapped them in 3D space, you would see planes. Well, if they were really random points in 3D space there should be no planes there, they should be all mixed up. And so suddenly you saw that it wasn’t random. And so that’s how I got into this question because I wrote a paper which I called “Randomness by Design” and the questions kept coming – well, what is the nature of these patterns that we use to eliminate chance, and not just to say it’s not chance, but to infer design. That led to my project of The Design Inference. Well, it turned out what was crucial for detecting design was this what I called Specified Complexity, that you have a pattern, where the pattern signifies an event of low probability, and yet the pattern itself is easily described, so it’s specified, but also low probability. And I ended up calling it Specified Complexity, I don’t want to get into the details because this can be several lectures in itself, but so there was this marker, this sign of intelligence, in terms of specified complexity, it was a well-defined statistical notion, but it turned out it was also connected with various concepts in information theory, and as I developed Specified Complexity, and I was asked back in 05 to say what is the state of play of Specified Complexity, and I found that when I tried to cash it out in Information Theoretic terms, it was actually a form of Shannon Information, I mean it had an extra twist in it, basically it had something called Kolmogorov complexity that had to be added to it. So my point is just that it seemed that one thing leads to the other. Now that idea of Specified Complexity has since transmogrified if you will into a whole field of evolutionary informatics where we look at targets, those are the items that have specified complexity, and search, and search for targets, in various search spaces. Well, it turns out that evolution can itself be conceptualised as a search. I mean if you go on google, you’ll find the term “evolutionary search” all over the place. “Search” doesn’t have to be put in purely teleological terms where there is an intelligence searching for things, although it can be that, it makes sense to talk about evolution in terms of search, and then you can start asking, well what’s the information that’s required for evolutionary searches to succeed in finding their targets. This is well understood in the field called evolutionary computing, my main collaboration these days is with engineers at Baylor, I’m no longer on faculty there, but I get to work with people there, and so this has emerged into the field of evolutionary informatics, we can go online to www.evoinfo.org and you’ll see that we have now got probably about ten papers either accepted or under submission in top engineering journals, this is mainstream peer-reviewed press, where we’re looking at the obstacles that face various searches and the information required for searches to succeed, and can I just illustrate this for you in a simple way, because I’m probably talking to many theologians, and who don’t have a lot of familiarity with these technical aspects, but think of this, if you’ve got a huge, acres and acres, and you have hidden some easter eggs, let’s say that the easter eggs are well hid, and there are not many, and the area is huge, let’s say a hundred by a hundred mile area, ok? How are you going to find them? An exhaustive search isn’t going to work, you don’t have the time or resources to do that. Random search isn’t going to work, if you just kind of flip a coin to decide where to go and you can just hop around anywhere, I mean exhaustive search could work if you could go inch by inch over the whole property, but that’s the nature of these searches, we have limited resources with these type of needle in the haystack problems. So how are you going to find them? Well, one way, is for somebody who knows where the easter eggs are, to say: warmer, colder, colder, now warmer, warmer, hotter, hot you’re burning up! Now, if you do that, now what’s happening, how is it that you are finding that easter egg? Well, it’s because you’ve been given information, right? I mean, that’s what you’ve been given, through this warmer, colder, this is basically helping you with the search, to find the target. Well, this is what I think has been one of the great fallacies about evolutionary thinking, that somehow Darwinian processes can get rid of the teleology in evolutionary search – they don’t. Richard Dawkins, for instance has a very famous example, which has been recycled endlessly, and some of my critics have said, well why does he keep focussing on this example, because it’s been discredited, but it hasn’t been discredited, I think, certainly not within those circles, and top researchers, most recently Michael Yaris, he’s written a book on the origin of life, has recycled it, only the target phrase in his case is not Methinks it is a like a weasel, which is what it was in Richard Dawkins’ case, but Nothing in make sense in biology apart from evolution, that’s his target phrase, but where I’m going with this is Dawkins gives a computer simulation in which he asks, how could we get a phrase like “methinks it is like a weasel” through some sort of evolutionary process. And basically what he does is he starts with a random string and then, as elements in this random string vary randomly but get closer to the target, closer in one sense, letter by letter match, then eventually, actually in very short order, evolve to this target string much faster than you could by pure random search. Now Dawkins will say, aha! See, evolutionary searches can get you to these targets much faster than just purely random search. But the question is, how did he get the information which said, this is closer to the target than some other string? So that’s really, he’s slipped in, smuggled in, the information, into these evolutionary processes. In fact what I would argue, and what my colleagues and I have argued, is that evolution, insofar as it’s successful, in as it were navigating biological configuration space, that it introduces, it requires a lot of information. And so the question is, where did that information come from? So it really hasn’t answered the question, I mean, if you will, let’s say I came to you, and I said, look you’ve got this easter egg hunt, there’s no way you’re going to find them, I’ll just tell you warmer, colder, I’ll get you to the target, and now you’ve explained it without any need for intelligence. Now, wait a second, the information you’re giving me is something that you had to come up with as an intelligent agent. It’s not something that just arose through some sort of blind material process, it seems that’s exactly what we’re dealing with in evolution itself. Bob Marks and I , Robert Marks is a professor of electrical and computer engineering, at Baylor, we have a paper and a massive book that Bruce Gordon and I did, on the Nature of Nature, and so we’ve gotten our .. called Life’s Conservation Law, and ... why natural selection cannot create biological information. Really the most interesting results connected with this work, our Conservation of Information result, really seems to be ground-breaking about the nature of information, because what it says is, that as we try to understand the information that allows searches to succeed, the information problem only gets more difficult, as it were back-tracks. I say this, ok, I give you this example, this will make it clearer even than the easter egg hunt. Imagine that you are looking for treasure on a big island.
Elizabeth B Liddle
June 24, 2013
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Elizabeth @14: I'm sure I might be able to stumble on the talk you're referring to if I search, but if you don't mind and have the link handy, could you post it in this thread? I'd like to review the specific talk you are referring to.Eric Anderson
June 24, 2013
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Elizabeth:
So, Eric, why not extrapolate from the fact that we can get evolutionary algorithms to invent things that human designers can’t, that evolution is also an excellent designer?
LoL! Humans design evolutionary algorithms to do something, and they do it, then they did it by design, Lizzie. Genetic and evolutionary algorithms are DESIGN mechanisms, not blind watchmaker mechanisms. IOW Lizzie is happy to misrepresent reality because it suits her needs. Pathetic.Joe
June 24, 2013
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Elizabeth @13: Please stop referring to the operation of systems in organisms as being evidence for what evolution can do. The entire question is whether they came about without design, so referring to them as evidence is self-referential. And, yes, the fact that things like evolutionary algorithms, even with their very modest results to date, required designers to set up is in fact evidence that such systems require design. You keep talking about the alleged evidence you have for evolution bringing about what we see in life. Yet the only evidence you seem to produce is (i) evolutionary algorithms (which you acknowledge are designed) can produce some simple stuff that virtually never approximates anything even close to real biology, and (ii) living systems exist and adapt. Finally, this self-reproduction red herring has been addressed too many times to count. What is it about self-reproduction that makes the implausible plausible, the unlikely likely? The only thing self-reproduction does is increase the probabilistic resources, and it is a rounding error in the broader scheme of things. Do you think self-replication has some other important property that would allow us to conclude, say, that a horse is not designed, but that the Antikythera mechanism is? If so, please spell it out. If not, please stop with this red herring about self-replication making things possible.Eric Anderson
June 24, 2013
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Mike Elzinga and Jeff talked about an unfair coin. So let's suppose the coin had a 75% propensity to show heads, what does the binomial distribution claim? The probability is (.75)^500 = 3.39 x 10^-63 and this is confirmed by the stat trek calculator: http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx By way of contrast a fair coin being all heads has a probability of: (.5)^500 = 3.1 x 10^-151 Given this, even unfair coins are not a good explanation for all coins being observed to be heads. It's a better explanation, but 3.39 x 10^-63 probabilities isn't anything I'd wager on. We can reject the fair coin hypothesis and accept it is unfair within reasonable limits just to be generous (like say 75% propensity for heads). All coins heads for a sufficiently large set of coins would still reasonably (not absolutely) suggest a non-random process was the driver for the configuration. All heads for approximately 1205 unfair coins (at 75% propensity) for heads will be as unlikely as 500 fair coins. Whether ID is the cause of the configuration is formally a separate issue, but I would find that a believable explanation especially in light of the fact humans have sufficient skill and means to effect such designs. The discussion isn't about the fairness of the coins. We can even grant for the sake of argument it is unfair within reasonable limits and still reject the random toss hypothesis as an explanation for the configuration of all heads.scordova
June 24, 2013
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semi OT: Biological Arithmetic: Plants Do Sums to Get Through the Night - June 24, 2013 Excerpt: In research to be published in the open access journal eLife, scientists at the John Innes Centre show that plants make precise adjustments to their rate of starch consumption. These adjustments ensure that the starch store lasts until dawn even if the night comes unexpectedly early or the size of the starch store varies. The John Innes Centre scientists show that to adjust their starch consumption so precisely they must be performing a mathematical calculation -- arithmetic division.,,, During the night, mechanisms inside the leaf measure the size of the starch store and estimate the length of time until dawn. Information about time comes from an internal clock, similar to our own body clock. The size of the starch store is then divided by the length of time until dawn to set the correct rate of starch consumption, so that, by dawn, around 95% of starch is used up. "The calculations are precise so that plants prevent starvation but also make the most efficient use of their food," said Professor Smith.,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130624093524.htmbornagain77
June 24, 2013
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But it isn’t Dembski’s view, even now. He still thinks (I transcribed that talk he gave that was posted here recently) that the tell-tale pattern a special kind of information that combines Shannon Complexity with Kolmogorov Compressibility.
One way to settle this is to get a statement from Bill Dembski directly. I haven't done this because it seems evident in his writings that algorithmically compressible strings can evidence design. By way of contrast, compressible strings can be a sufficient but not necessary condition to detect design provided the compressibility isn't the result of physical law (such as salt crystals). Any one willing to volunteer? Barry, Denyse, Winston, Eric?scordova
June 24, 2013
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Eric
You are good at reconciling. I’m afraid I wouldn’t be as accommodating. As long as people keep confusing things like complexity and compressibility with specification they will never understand how a design inference works. Compressibility is simply a separate issue. Maybe it would help people if they would think of a simple Punnett square: On the x axis we could put “Compressibility” and on the y axis we could put “Designed.” Then do the square. There are compressible things that are designed. There are compressible things that are not designed. And so on . . . How is it that people get off in the weeds? Are they simply not taking time to think through the issues carefully, or are they simply clutching at straws for anything that sounds like a good refutation of design if it has the right buzzwords?
Oddly enough, I agree with most of this. But it isn't Dembski's view, even now. He still thinks (I transcribed that talk he gave that was posted here recently) that the tell-tale pattern a special kind of information that combines Shannon Complexity with Kolmogorov Compressibility. So it's not that people "clutch...at straws for anything that sounds like a good refutation of design if it has the right buzzwords". It's that some of the buzz-word users are making fallacious arguments for Design that can be justifiably refuted. But refuting Dembski doesn't refute ID. On the other hand, if people are going to cite Dembski's arguments as arguments for ID, then prepare to have them refuted!Elizabeth B Liddle
June 24, 2013
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So, Eric, why not extrapolate from the fact that we can get evolutionary algorithms to invent things that human designers can't, that evolution is also an excellent designer? Especially when the prerequisite for evolution (self-reproduction) is present in biological organisms, but not in the Antikythera mechanism, Stonehenge, or Mayan temples? Sure, you could still argue that a Designer had to set up the self-reproducers, but that would be a different argument, as we don't know how simple the simplest self-reproducers had to be. I'm sure I will be jumped on for saying this, but that's the argument for not inferring Design - that we have an alternative that fits the data - not that a designer is impossible. Given a model that does have some actual support (as I believe it to have), and given that I am not persuaded that an interventionist designer has much evidence for it/him/her, I side with evolution rather than a Designer. And I don't think I'm alone. I think ID proponents assume that "evolutionists" reject design because it is "unnatural". Well, I don't. I reject design because I think we have an alternative hypothesis that fits the data better - has more evidence to support it. That's the take home message from my comment on the other thread about Bayes.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 24, 2013
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So, no, Sal, I can’t respect a comment like Mark Frank’s.
Well, I'm glad we can disagree about something. :-)scordova
June 24, 2013
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Sal @ 9: Thanks for the irony trip down memory lane about Shallit and Dembski. You are good at reconciling. I'm afraid I wouldn't be as accommodating. As long as people keep confusing things like complexity and compressibility with specification they will never understand how a design inference works. Compressibility is simply a separate issue. Maybe it would help people if they would think of a simple Punnett square: On the x axis we could put "Compressibility" and on the y axis we could put "Designed." Then do the square. There are compressible things that are designed. There are compressible things that are not designed. And so on . . . How is it that people get off in the weeds? Are they simply not taking time to think through the issues carefully, or are they simply clutching at straws for anything that sounds like a good refutation of design if it has the right buzzwords?Eric Anderson
June 24, 2013
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Mark Frank wrote:
If we had experience of designers originating life, or even of designers with something remotely approaching the required skills to originate life, then I would take the ID hypothesis seriously.
Nonsense. This is a regular cop-out we often hear from those who recognize the validity of the design inference generally but are loathe to apply it in this particular case. There are at least three fundamental problems with this view: 1. Part of the point of a design inference is to be able to infer design in those cases in which it was not previously known that there existed a designer capable of the artifact in question. Virtually every time we learn something striking about an ancient culture's abilities with, say math or science or architecture or engineering, we do so not because we previously knew they were capable of such, but because we look at the artifact and now, at this moment, newly recognize that they were capable of such. Look at the Antikythera mechanism, Stonehenge, some of the Mayan astronomical ruins, Easter Island and so on. In other words, to say we have to know there was a designer around at the time who was capable of designing the artifact before we acknowledge that the artifact was designed: (i) is contrary to regular experience and practice, and (ii) confuses the direction the inference runs. 2. To acknowledge that we recognize, say, the Antikythera mechanism as designed because it has an observable function and is of a complexity and structure and specification that has never been known to come from purely natural processes -- and then in the same breath argue that when we find something that is even more of the same we can't infer design because it is too much of what we acknowledge to be designed is just plain illogical. 3. Many, many of the skills required for life are in fact present in things that are known to be designed. The ability to string molecules together in chains, the writing of software, error correction algorithms, concatenation algorithms, purposeful functionality, coordination of parts to meet an end, ability to code language and messages in strings of nucleic acids, interconnected nodes and networks, distributed computing, and on and on. True, we are just scratching the surface, but that only underscores the trajectory of the evidence and the absolute necessity of design to produce the system in question when we start talking of, say, OOL or new body plans. ----- So, no, Sal, I can't respect a comment like Mark Frank's. It goes against our experience in archaeology and other areas of discovery; it misunderstands the direction of the inference; and it commits the fallacy of essentially saying "I'll go along with the design inference continuum until the evidence for design starts to become so much greater than anything we've previously seen, and then I'll jump off just at the point the evidence really starts to mount and will stand around waiting for . . . what? . . . some other explanation that might come along and, if this new explanation is purely natural and material, will (by definition) contradict the design inference as to the very things I already acknowledged were designed." There is zero logic in such an approach. But it does allow one to maintain a nice rhetorical distance and appear to be open minded.Eric Anderson
June 24, 2013
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if the string is, as far as we can see, incompressible, we cannot.
Not exactly! Compressible strings can be rejected as resulting from chance provided we have an independent specification somewhere. Copyright infringement cases deal with moderately incompressible strings if we are talking text, and presumably fully incompressible strings if we are talking zip or JPEG files. We can reject the chance hypothesis for these incompressible, but obviously designed objects in a copyright infringement case. I also provided another counter example in the FBI case in Coordinated Complexity. PS Dembski, Shallit's former student specifically mentioned copy right infringement with respect to ID in his book Design Inference. That book has Shallit's name in the dedication page. The irony of it all that an book that has become an ID staple is dedicated to Jeff Shallit. One thing I'll credit Jeff Shallit with, he was William Dembksi's teacher. :-)scordova
June 24, 2013
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Mark Frannk:
If we had experience of designers originating life, or even of designers with something remotely approaching the required skills to originate life, then I would take the ID hypothesis seriously (I don’t think that Craig Venter comes anywhere close to the required skills).
What we have is life begets life- that is our only experience. And how the inference works is if our only experience says that only humans can design complex machinery, yet humans were not around to do it, we infer it was some other agency that did. That said, if you require a meeting with the designer or you need to watch the designer designing life, then you have no interest in science. But we already knew that.Joe
June 24, 2013
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If we had experience of designers originating life, or even of designers with something remotely approaching the required skills to originate life, then I would take the ID hypothesis seriously (I don’t think that Craig Venter comes anywhere close to the required skills).
I respect that viewpoint even though it is one I don't subscribe to personally. Michael Denton is probably close to that position. He's wavered back and forth about ID as best as I can tell. David Berlinski is even more evidently "arm length" on the issue, though sympathetic.scordova
June 24, 2013
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But the ID advocates are also wrong, because they jump from ‘reject the fair coin hypothesis’ to ‘design’.
This isn't about rejecting the fair coin hypothesis! The original essay Siding with Mathgrrl assumes the coins were fair to begin with. This can be established by physical means such as determining the symmetry of the coin and materials etc., and even slight biases towards heads would still result in several sigmas away from expectation if all coins were heads. We can even, gag, use the law of large numbers and test the coin by actually tossing it to estimate it is fair, but I think physical symmetry is the best test. And even granting slight biases, it is moot when dealing with large numbers... The hypothesis being rejected was a random process would result in creating all coins heads. Suppose that we opened a box of coins and they are all heads, we would reject random process as the cause. No where in my original post that started this dust-up did I say we actually observed the 500 coins being tossed! I said:
For example, consider if we saw 500 fair coins all heads, do we actually have to consider human subjectivity when looking at the pattern and concluding it is designed? No. Why? We can make an alternative mathematical argument that says if coins are all heads they are sufficiently inconsistent with the Binomial Distribution for randomly tossed coins, hence we can reject the chance hypothesis.
I said we saw the coins in the all heads state. I did not say we saw the coins being tossed, I merely said we can compare the all heads state with the hypothetical chance process of randomly tossing coins. I never said we actually saw the coins being flipped. Shallit is not even characterizing what is at issue. The coins are assumed fair, what is at issue is whether or not we can reject the chance hypothesis for their configuration.scordova
June 24, 2013
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One might ask if the design inference is valid? It probably is. From our experience of coin flipping it certainly appears to be the most likely explanation.
That is rather a key sentence. If we had experience of designers originating life, or even of designers with something remotely approaching the required skills to originate life, then I would take the ID hypothesis seriously (I don't think that Craig Venter comes anywhere close to the required skills).Mark Frank
June 24, 2013
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WJM: "Shallit cannot simply point out Neil’s and Jerad’s error, but his DDS compels him to not let IDists have the point, and so he goes on to say something stupid to prevent the ID 'win.'" Just so.Barry Arrington
June 24, 2013
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Posted on Shallit;s blog: But the ID advocates are also wrong, because they jump from "reject the fair coin hypothesis" to "design". We do? Reference please. For example, maybe the so-called "fair coin" is actually weighted so that heads come up 999 out of 1000 times. How did it become weighted? Or maybe the flipping mechanism is not completely fair -- perhaps the coin is made of two kinds of metal, one magnetic, and it passes past a magnet before you examine it. In other words, if you flip what is said to be a fair coin 500 times and it comes up heads every time, then you have extremely good evidence that your prior belief about the probability distribution of flips is simply wrong. And how did that happen? Again all you are doing is adding more design into it. A designer weighted the coin. A designer made the coin out of two different metals. A designer magnetized it. As for biology, well there still isn't any evidence that natural selection (which includes random mutations) is a designer mimic. Meaning it doesn't do anything. And that is what IDists do- we look to the evidence- and your position doesn't have any.Joe
June 24, 2013
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I think you can probably lump those comments of Shallit's in with other DDS (Darwinist Derangement Syndrome) produced inanities; Shallit cannot simply point out Neil's and Jerad's error, but his DDS compels him to not let IDists have the point, and so he goes on to say something stupid to prevent the ID "win".William J Murray
June 24, 2013
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With regards to identifying a specification, compressibility is not the issue. Comprehensibility is. I think many (including some ID proponents) are stuck on this idea that compressibility -- which essentially is some form of Shannon calculation -- is germane to specification. It is not. Sure, in some cases what we recognize as a specification also happens to be compressible. But we can just as easily come up with contrary examples. Specification is an issue of function, purpose, meaning. It is a logical aspect, not a mathematical one.Eric Anderson
June 24, 2013
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