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Jerry Coyne’s critique of the cosmological argument … and the reply he wouldn’t publish

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A few days ago, Professor Jerry Coyne attacked fellow atheist and Darwinist Michael Ruse, for going too easy on the cosmological argument for God’s existence in an interview with philosopher Gary Gutting, titled, Does Evolution Explain Religious Beliefs? (New York Times, July 8, 2014). In the interview, Ruse, a professor of philosophy at Florida State University and the author of the forthcoming book Atheism: What Everyone Needs to Know, indicated that although he did not find the traditional philosophical arguments for God’s existence at all persuasive, he could respect people who did, and he added that he found Richard Dawkins’ attempted refutations of these arguments downright embarrassing, as a philosopher:

If the person of faith wants to say that God created the world, I don’t think you can deny this on scientific grounds. But you can go after the theist on other grounds. I would raise philosophical objections: for example, about the notion of a necessary being. I would also fault Christian theology: I don’t think you can mesh the ancient Greek philosophers’ notion of a god outside time and space with the Jewish notion of a god as a person. But these are not scientific objections…

Like every first-year undergraduate in philosophy, Dawkins thinks he can put to rest the causal argument for God’s existence. If God caused the world, then what caused God? Of course the great philosophers, Anselm and Aquinas particularly, are way ahead of him here. They know that the only way to stop the regression is by making God something that needs no cause. He must be a necessary being. This means that God is not part of the regular causal chain but in some sense orthogonal to it. He is what keeps the whole business going, past, present and future, and is the explanation of why there is something rather than nothing. Also God is totally simple, and I don’t see why complexity should not arise out of this, just as it does in mathematics and science from very simple premises.

Traditionally, God’s necessity is not logical necessity but some kind of metaphysical necessity, or aseity. Unlike Hume, I don’t think this is a silly or incoherent idea, any more than I think mathematical Platonism is silly or incoherent. As it happens, I am not a mathematical Platonist, and I do have conceptual difficulties with the idea of metaphysical necessity. So in the end, I am not sure that the Christian God idea flies, but I want to extend to Christians the courtesy of arguing against what they actually believe, rather than begin and end with the polemical parody of what Dawkins calls “the God delusion.”

Professor Ruse added that although he found theodicies attempting to explain the occurrence of moral evil in the world utterly unpersuasive, he was not inclined to fault God for the occurrence of natural evil. His argument, as a Darwinist, was that not even God could have made a world governed by law, without the occurrence of animal death and suffering:

Although in some philosophy of religion circles it is now thought that we can counter the argument from evil, I don’t think this is so. More than that, I don’t want it to be so. I don’t want an argument that convinces me that the death under the guillotine of Sophie Scholl (one of the leaders of the White Rose group opposed to the Nazis) or of Anne Frank in Bergen-Belsen ultimately contributes to the greater good. If my eternal salvation depends on the deaths of these two young women, then forget it.

This said, I have never really thought that the pains brought on by the evolutionary process, in particular the struggle for survival and reproduction, much affect the Christian conception of God. For all of Voltaire’s devastating wit in “Candide,” I am a bit of a Leibnizian on these matters. If God is to do everything through unbroken law, and I can think of good theological reasons why this should be so, then pain and suffering are part of it all. Paradoxically and humorously I am with Dawkins here. He argues that the only way naturally you can get the design-like features of organisms — the hand and the eye — is through evolution by natural selection, brought on by the struggle. Other mechanisms just don’t work. So God is off the hook.

This was all too much for Professor Coyne, who opined that Ruse had been far too easy on religious believers:

It seems to me a perfectly valid question to ask where God came from, nor do I think that question is answered definitively by saying, “Well, God, by definition, doesn’t need a cause.” One could just as well say that “The cosmos, which produces multiple universes, was always there, and it by definition didn’t need a cause.”

And I’d need to be convinced that God’s existence is a metaphysical “necessity.” Where does that come from?? It seems to me perfectly reasonable to ask: “If there were a Big Bodiless Mind hanging around eternally before he actually did anything, where that Bodiless Mind came from?”

Finally, where on earth did Ruse get the idea that “God is totally simple”? Yes, some theologians have said that, but I don’t buy it. Making an analogy between god and mathematics doesn’t settle the issue. How is a bodiless mind able to create a universe “simple”? And how can God twiddle every electron, know everyone’s thoughts, see the future, and uphold everything, by being “simple”? The answer must surely involve theological wordplay…

But that aside, Ruse’s argument [on why God would have to allow natural evil if He were creating a world governed by law – VJT] doesn’t hold water. First of all, the Christian God didn’t do everything through unbroken law. I call to your attention Jesus and his miracles, as well as many other violations of “unbroken law” — including God’s intervention in evolution, which is what most evolution-accepting Americans believe. So, for most believers, God clearly didn’t do everything through unbroken law. But even if he did, one can rightly ask, “Why?” What’s the advantage of God not preventing unnecessary suffering if he’s able to do so? Is God’s refusal to interfere because maintaining “unbroken natural law” is a huge but mysterious good that outweighs all the suffering of sentient creatures? If that’s the claim, then philosophers need to explain it. What’s so great about unbroken natural law?

I then submitted a brief comment in reply to Professor Coyne’s article, which I hoped he would publish on his Website. Unfortunately, for reasons best known to himself, he did not see fit to do so. However, I thought I might share it with readers at Uncommon Descent, so here it is. As readers can see, I made every effort to be civil and courteous:

Hi Professor Coyne,

You’ve read a lot of books on the arguments for God’s existence, but you continue to labor under a few misconceptions that I’d like to clear up.

First, the arguments for God’s existence put forward by Aquinas are constructive arguments. They don’t start with a prefabricated notion of God (e.g. a bodiless Mind); all that they assume about the word “God” is that it denotes something which is the ultimate explanation for everything, if it exists.

Second, Aquinas’ arguments make some vital assumptions about what kinds of things require further explanation. In particular, they assume that: (a) any being which has some property P which it sometimes lacks [or which it is capable of lacking at times] requires an explanation for why it has that property now; (b) any being which is composed of separable parts, is capable of non-existence, and therefore requires an explanation for its continued existence; (c) any being which has built-in tendencies to change in a particular direction has the property of being oriented towards the future state it is moving in the direction of, which means it possesses the property of future-directedness, which in turn means that it must either be intelligent or be guided by something intelligent in its behavior.

Third, the Thomistic arguments make some assumptions about the nature of what counts as a good explanation. In particular: (i) an infinite regress of explanations is no explanation at all; (ii) an explanatory circle is impossible, which means that it is impossible for A to be the complete explanation for B and for B to be the complete explanation for A; and (iii) there are no “brute facts,” or states of affairs for which there is no explanation.

Given these assumptions, we can proceed in one of two ways. We can consider the cosmos as a whole (i.e. the multiverse) and treat it as a single object. It is a spatio-temporal entity, and at least some of its properties are properties which it is capable of losing. Also, it is a composite entity: it is made up of parts. Finally, it has future-oriented tendencies, such as a tendency towards increasing entropy. Consequently, by the assumptions listed above, it cannot possibly be a self-explanatory entity. Alternatively, if you don’t like treating the cosmos as a single entity, you can take one item within the cosmos, which has the features listed above (non-essential properties which it is capable of losing; compositeness; and future oriented behavior). Since an infinite regress of explanations and an explanatory circle are ruled out by our assumptions above, and since we cannot stop at any unexplained “brute facts,” we are forced to posit the existence of some self-explanatory Being which has no properties that is capable of losing (i.e. a Being outside time), which is not composed of separable parts (i.e. a bodiless Being), and which guides future-oriented objects in the inanimate world towards their end-states – in other words, a Being who (somehow) explains its own existence, and who is intelligent [because it guides things], bodiless [because it has no parts] and timeless [because it can’t gain or lose properties]. This description of God is not stipulated in advance; it’s a conclusion from the assumptions listed. In this respect, Aquinas’ Five Ways are unlike Anselm’s ontological argument.

Now you may disagree with the assumptions I’ve listed, but each of them is highly plausible, to say the least. The notion of a Being who explains its own existence is not made at the start; it emerges at the conclusion of the argument.

Finally, a couple more points. First, I realize that the notion of an utterly simple Mind may sound odd, but all I’ve argued for is a Being who is not composed of separable parts, which is different. Second, I agree with you that natural evil (e.g. the suffering of animals) is a powerful prima facie argument against an omnibenevolent God, but it’s not a knock-down one, as it naively assumes that God has no prior obligations to other intelligent agents in the cosmos that would prevent Him from destroying natural evil right now, or from allowing it to arise in the first place. We don’t know that.

I’ve said enough, so I shall stop here.

I’d like to say a little more about Professor Coyne’s objection to the doctrine of Divine simplicity:

How is a bodiless mind able to create a universe “simple”? And how can God twiddle every electron, know everyone’s thoughts, see the future, and uphold everything, by being “simple”?

I can see where Coyne is coming from here, and I would agree that his objection has some force: the notion of an utterly simple mind is a highly counter-intuitive one, given that all the minds we know of appear to either be, or be dependent on, complex entities such as brains, which store information. Instead of trying to imagine how a simple Mind might think (which we can’t), I believe it would be better to simply point out that the cosmological argument merely rules out certain kinds of complexity in an Ultimate Explanation for everything. In particular, an Ultimate Explanation cannot be something that can fall apart; hence it cannot be made up of parts which are capable of decomposing – e.g. quantitative, spatio-temporal parts. The argument cannot establish any more than that, and if someone wanted to propose (for argument’s sake) that an Ultimate Explanation might contain parts which are integrated in such a way that they cannot disintegrate, then as far as I can tell, such a position would be perfectly consistent with the cosmological argument. Such a position would neatly side-step the problem of how an utterly simple Mind could process information.

Regarding the problem of evil, I would like to close by quoting some remarks made by Professor William Dembski in his 2010 debate with Christopher Hitchens:

The problem of evil still confronts theists, though not as a logical or philosophical problem, but instead as a psychological and existential one. The problem of evil can therefore be reformulated as the following argument:

Premise 1: Since God is good, he wants to destroy evil.
Premise 2: Since God is all-powerful, he can destroy evil.
Premise 3: Evil is not yet destroyed.
Conclusion: Therefore God will eventually destroy evil.

As time-bound creatures, our problem here is with the word “eventually.” We want to see evil destroyed right now. And because we don’t see it destroyed right now, and thus experience the suffering that evil invariably inflicts, we are tempted to doubt God’s existence and goodness. Our challenge, therefore, is to continue trusting God until evil is destroyed.

An excellent contemporary defense of the cosmological argument can be found in Professor Koons’ 1996 article, A New Look at the Cosmological Argument. I would also commend Job Opening: Creator of the Universe—A Reply to Keith Parsons (2009) by Professor Paul Herrick.

What do readers think of the cosmological argument? And are the counter-arguments marshaled by Coyne persuasive ones? Comments are welcome.

Comments
LarTanner: You'd only ever need to play these silly games if you wanted someone to take seriously your assessment of the "root of a whole lot of evil." So long as you do not, you needn't bother.Phinehas
July 17, 2014
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Why would anyone play your silly game? You seem quite certain that whatever some people say they believe, they really don't.LarTanner
July 16, 2014
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LarTanner, Then please, show me I am wrong. Do you believe that all laws should be written to simply accommodate what is the best for survival of any particular group, regardless of the rights of a particular individual?phoodoo
July 16, 2014
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"Of course no atheist really believes what they say they believe" Oh, of course. The humbleness in the face of your obvious superiority is refreshing.LarTanner
July 16, 2014
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DrJDD, I would agree, although I think even the societal need for judgement becomes a precarious one as well, if we really take it to the atheists logical conclusion. Old people can no longer help society and are a burden, they need to be killed to give more food for the young. Rape is not really wrong per se, if the person who does the raping has good genes. Girls who don't like to be raped are simply poor judges of whats good for them. So if we strictly make judgements about actions based on what is best for society as a whole, then all laws would need to be rewritten, and people need to stop being so selfish about their own (irrational) feelings of good. Of course no atheist really believes what they say they believe, so the point is utterly mute.phoodoo
July 16, 2014
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Coyne: It seems to me a perfectly valid question to ask where God came from.... Here I go again with the amusement thing at the expense of materialists and their pretzel logic, but consider: unless nature created itself then something or someone independent of nature did so. And so the Creator, if only postulated, of nature cannot be said to have come "from", get it? You can't utter prepositions like 'from', 'outside', and 'before' in this regard, without looking like a bush league debater and thinker. I'm even less than comfortable on my use of past tense in the above. I may be jumping to conclusions but it seems like Coyne has never pondered eternity, but on the other hand I guarantee that he will, same as the rest of us.groovamos
July 16, 2014
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Hi Phoodoo, Apologies, I quickly scrolled up when composing that message and noted down the wrong person to reply to (was conceptu). With regards to materialist views of good and evil, we see it still here - it is brushed off as a canard, a falsehood, a lie, a commonly made fallacy that materialism and atheism results in no moral standard therefore no justification for defining good and evil. However, if I was a materialist, I would follow that argument through. If I was a materialistic Atheist I would affirm there is no good or evil however theses concepts are inbred into society as government, laws and rules have evolved in order to maximise survival. Obviously if murder is rife, reproduction is harder, survival is less. Even if one is strong and good at murdering, they would always fear someone stronger could come along and murder them. So rules are established - not because of good or evil but out of survival. These are then passed down to generations from a very young age giving the concept of good and evil, right and wrong which is why we are shocked when we hear of/see actions that violate that accepted "norm". You would ask me then what about acts of kindness, good acts, being nice to people when there is not consequence etc (as alluded to above). I would reply that these are all still under the human underlying psyche that seeks affirmation as a way of progressing in life. If you are mean to someone and others find out, they may look down on you, you may be cast out from an acceptance criteria generally set by a group of people and therefore minimise chance of success in life and ultimately passing on your genes. The same could be true of why people do good things and fight for right over wrong in their perception. These are all for self and human race gain to continue to survive and evolve. That to me seems a very sensible materialistic approach, however you would have to question if someone left without human contact growing to adulthood, then intergrated into a society, if they would have any of their own moral codes or not. That might be interesting to test that theory. So part of me struggles to understand why materialists still like to say that you can define good and evil in their worldview. Yet it comes back to the point that they are saving face: if you deny good and evil than noone's actions are evil therefore there is nothing inherently wrong with paedophilia, rape, murder, etc. Our society deems them wrong as we promote order over chaos for survival, but there is nothing actually wrong with those things. I think this is what materialists fear is the natural conclusion of such a logical process and as such do not adopt such a view generally speaking. Which to my mind, proves the point that there is a moral code / conscious written into the hearts and minds of mankind. The point remains though - if one is to use the argument that God does evil things (as constantly is used by Atheists), you have to define how you arise to standards of good and evil to judge an act as good or evil. I am still waiting on a good explanation for that. The onus is not on the theist, but the atheist if they indeed wish to use that argument of God performing acts of evil.Dr JDD
July 16, 2014
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JDD, Just to clarify, it was not me who quoted Isiah. I have never quoted the Bible, ever. I don't think it is necessary for a discussion of science, philosophy or the world.phoodoo
July 16, 2014
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Acartia_bogart- to materialistic atheists the concepts of good and evil are subjective at best and absolutely meaningless.Joe
July 16, 2014
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jdd, I would be genuinely very interested to hear the logic behind materialistic absolute morals and definitions of good and evil. A materialist might answer that there is no such thing as absolute morality but that they might change their mind if you presented a convincing argument of how one might prove it exists. Preferably more convincing than self evident truth.velikovskys
July 16, 2014
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Joe:
LarTanner- You are confused as I did not ask for the definition of “canard”, I asked how what was said wrt to materialism is a canard. Please answer what was asked.
I think that he is referring to the false claim by christians (I say christians because this claim is not made by all religions) that an atheist society can have no morals or a concept of good and bad (and evil) because that is the purview of god.Acartia_bogart
July 16, 2014
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LarTanner- You are confused as I did not ask for the definition of "canard", I asked how what was said wrt to materialism is a canard. Please answer what was asked.Joe
July 16, 2014
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ca·nard k??när(d)/ noun 1. an unfounded rumor or story.LarTanner
July 16, 2014
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Joe - "How is that a canard, LarTanner?" Yes, this is humorous, especially from an ideologue who has always championed that there are no as absolutes. Oddly enough a couple of years ago when he stood on a soap box and declared to the world in his very last post in his blog: "I'm also not jazzed up about some issues like I used to be. The issues that grab me now have to do with real, meatspace life. I want to focus my mind and energies on home, work, and just living." So he says he wanted to devote more time to just living life and spending it with his family. Okay, not bad, but yet he has since after making that religious affirmation, he has spent more time on all these discussion boards since than at any time previously when he ran his blog. If anything these fiction promoting comments are entertaining -DavidD
July 16, 2014
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Then try reading it again as it is Lucifer who brings suffering to Job. Further, after the ordeal Job had all restored to him. God allows Lucifer to cause the suffering. He is the secondary cause of the suffering/ disaster.velikovskys
July 16, 2014
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Yet if we are materialists, than humans should not be the only ones who this applies to as humans are no different than all other living things
If we are materialists, humans are not significantly different than all non-living things also. "Life" is just a different mode of existence for blind, purposeless matter to take on.Silver Asiatic
July 16, 2014
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What's that Ruse says?
I don’t think you can mesh the ancient Greek philosophers’ notion of a god outside time and space with the Jewish notion of a god as a person.
Oh really? Actually it's duck soup.
Isaiah 57:15 (AV) For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Nowadays one wouldn't expect the ignorance of the Bible that Ruse displays to bar him from occupying a philosophy chair at a state college. But it is HILARIOUS to see his cluelessness about the ignoramus he makes of himself into when he pipes up as if he were some kind of expert on "Jewish notions." Talk about stupid.jstanley01
July 16, 2014
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It is fine to call something out as a falsehood but only if you give an explanation as to why. I would be genuinely very interested to hear the logic behind materialistic absolute morals and definitions of good and evil. I am happy to change my opinion on that if a convincing argument is presented.Dr JDD
July 16, 2014
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How is that a canard, LarTanner?Joe
July 16, 2014
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The old canard: "how can a materialist define evil? There is no moral standard to compare it with, to say what is good and consequently what is evil."LarTanner
July 16, 2014
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Sorry conceptu, I still do not buy what you are saying. Look at the context of the language used in that verse. It is contrasting opposites. “…creator of peace and creator of ra`” What is the word for peace here, could it be translated good? It is in fact, Shalowm (strongs 7965), and here are some translations of that word to English: completeness, soundness, welfare, peace completeness (in number) safety, soundness (in body) welfare, health, prosperity peace, quiet, tranquillity, contentment peace, friendship of human relationships with God especially in covenant relationship peace (from war) peace (as adjective)   In contrast what about the word translated evil here? This is Ra` (strongs 7451): bad, evil bad, disagreeable, malignant bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery) evil, displeasing bad (of its kind - land, water, etc) bad (of value) worse than, worst (comparison) sad, unhappy evil (hurtful) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition) bad, evil, wicked (ethically) in general, of persons, of thoughts deeds, actions n m evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity evil, distress, adversity evil, injury, wrong evil (ethical) n f evil, misery, distress, injury evil, misery, distress evil, injury, wrong evil (ethical)   So clearly ra` can be used to mean evil (morally and ethically). However, it clearly can mean a whole host of other things, such as injury, misery, distress, sadness, pain; all of which would not be considered by the Bible to be true moral evil. God causes all of these things but that does not mean they are evil. Thus to understand what the writer is saying in this verse, ra` must be taken in context and it is juxtaposed to Shalowm as an opposite end of a spectrum. Clearly Shalowm does not mean “good” as in morally, but as shown earlier, perhaps peace or safety or welfare are the best interpretations. Therefore, Ra` in this context is opposing that peace/safety. God creates peace but He also brings about distress, injury and misery to the sinner. People throughout the ages have wanted to maintain those things are not of God because they want a human perspective to be the truth rather than accepting complete depravity of man and complete goodness and righteousness of God. Therefore, fallen humans cannot comprehend how a God could be responsible for actions that they would traditionally associate with evil – because they themselves are morally imperfect and evil inherently.   That is precisely what A_B does here – uses a human viewpoint (one that cannot even define what evil is) to judge an infinitely superior (in terms of morals and righteousness) Being’s actions as evil. That does not even make sense. For example, let us say that a judge passes judgement in accordance to the law of the land that uses capital punishment for murder. The accused is sentenced appropriately according to the law of the land and so the judge orders their execution. Is the judge evil? No, he is following the law of the land (forget the argument whether capital punishment is right or wrong for now). However, what if that accused, whilst waiting his execution in prison is wronged by another prisoner in some way – let us say he stole a book he owned. The accused then decides to execute that other prisoner. Would that be considered an evil act? Yes it would. One act is evil the other is not yet the result is the same (death of someone). Now times that by infinity for God’s complete and utter perfection in righteousness and inability to allow evil to go unpaid for.   But again, I come back to the problem that there is as demonstrated in this thread – how can a materialist define evil? There is no moral standard to compare it with, to say what is good and consequently what is evil. Some people end up trying to define evil as bringing hurt or pain or suffering to other humans. So, “Do what you like as long as you don’t hurt or judge others” type of attitude. Yet if we are materialists, than humans should not be the only ones who this applies to as humans are no different than all other living things, they are just a bit further down the evolutionary chain. So humans should not bring hurt or pain or suffering to any other life. Therefore if you are a meat-eater you are evil, if you wear anything leather you are evil, if you take any pharmaceutical medicine or use modern medicine you are evil.   So again, the question must be asked to the materialist (and even to the theist), “what is the definition of evil?”   The answer cannot be “lack of goodness [righteousness]” as then you need a standard of that too.Dr JDD
July 16, 2014
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Jerry: “I still maintain that an answer lies in defining the word “evil.”” If I were to counsel a good man to kill his son, would I be considered evil? If I killed a child from every family in town who didn’t share my religion, would I be evil? Any sane person would agree that I am. So, why does god get a pass? We all think that we understand what evil is, but it is far more subjective than we would like to think.
You still have not defined "evil." You have offered up what you think are evil acts or events. I keep coming back to asking for the definition because it is essential to an understanding of the problem or as I say the lack of any real problem. I maintain that what most people call evil is not really evil. All the examples are finite and relative and we do not know the final outcome. You may think you do, but you don't and neither do people like Coyne. So here we are again discussing the concept of evil without a definition of it. It is all pointless till we agree on what is evil. Just like it is pointless to discuss evolution without a definition. By the way why don't you try defining that too when you use the term.jerry
July 16, 2014
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Concept
Dr. Torley and Dr. JDD, At the very least I think the onus is on those who are claiming that God does not create evil.
I am inclined to side with VJ and JDD. You are aware that evil is not a thing? Vividvividbleau
July 15, 2014
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Another translation of Isaiah 45:7
I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the Lord, who accomplishes all these things.
New English TranslationMapou
July 15, 2014
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The root of a whole lotta evil: "I am sorry but I believe that your interpretation of [holy book/story/verse/word] is incorrect."LarTanner
July 15, 2014
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vjtorley, I don't really understand your meaning? Why would one assume that evil is contingent on some other intelligent beings in the cosmos? I leave open all possibilities as to why evil is a fact. I sort of agree with what Joe said, evil exists, we have to learn how to deal with it the best way we believe we can. As I stated here (and at TSZ) , how can people have a desire to produce or create, if there is no motivation to do so. If all satisfaction in life was already guaranteed regardless of what one did, why would anyone do anything? In order to have good, you must have the opposite of good. The geniuses at The Skeptical Zone thought this was astounding and simply couldn't get their little minds around it. "What, what are you talking about, I get out of bed because the phone rings, not because of it being good...." This is the level of thought they have put into it. That type of stupidity is astounding to me.phoodoo
July 15, 2014
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Dr. Torley and Dr. JDD, I am sorry but I believe that your interpretation of Isaiah 45:7 is incorrect or, at the very least, not the simplest understanding. The verse appears in the context of a statement of absolute monotheism addressed to Cyrus the Great. At that time the major religion on Persia was Zoroastrianism which postulated two Dieties, one good and one evil. In contrast Judaism was monotheistic and the message to Cyrus was bringing home that point. Here is the full context (my translation from the Hebrew): I am [Tetragrammaton] and there is no other, other than me there is no gods, I have helped you but you have not known me. In order that they may know that from the eastern path of the sun and from the western path of the sun that there is nothing other than me, I am [Tetragrammaton] and there is no other. Fashioner of light, creator of darkness, maker of peace and creator of evil, I am God I have made all of these. At the very least I think the onus is on those who are claiming that God does not create evil.conceptualinertia
July 15, 2014
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vj, The article goes on to conclude that the meaning of the verse, when taken in context, is that “God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him.” That is not the conclusion one draws from Job.
Then try reading it again as it is Lucifer who brings suffering to Job. Further, after the ordeal Job had all restored to him.TSErik
July 15, 2014
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I love listening to theophobes and their ignorant juvenile understanding/interpretation of the Bible. It also amuses me to see how they invoke Christian morality to judge the Biblical God, since atheism has none of its own.humbled
July 15, 2014
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vj, The article goes on to conclude that the meaning of the verse, when taken in context, is that “God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him.” That is not the conclusion one draws from Job.velikovskys
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