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JSmith, Simpering Coward

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In The New Atheists Are Simpering Cowards  I wrote:

For Nietzsche nature is cruel and indifferent to suffering, and that cruel indifference is a good thing. The strong rule the weak and that is as it should be. And why should the strong rule the weak? Because that is the natural order of things of course. In a world where God is dead, objective morality is merely an illusion slaves have foisted on masters as a sort of self-defense mechanism.

When Nietzsche urges us to go beyond good and evil, he is urging us to recognize the implications of God’s death for morality. God is the only possible source of transcendent objective moral norms. If God does not exist then neither do transcendent objective moral norms. And if transcendent objective moral norms do not exist, neither do “good” and “evil” in the traditional senses of those words. There is only a perpetual battle of all against all, and “good” is a synonym for prevailing in that battle, and “evil” is a synonym for losing. . . .

I feel like my ears are going to bleed at the bleating of the new atheists who write in these pages. They go on and on and on and on about how morality is rooted in empathy and the avoidance of suffering. Nietzsche would have spit his contempt on them, for they are espousing the “herd animal” Christian slave-morality he disdained and which, ironically, they claim to have risen above. How many times have the atheists insisted, “we are just as ‘good’ as you”? Why have they failed to learn from Nietzsche that “good” means nothing. Why do they insist that they conform to a standard that they also insist does not exist?

The answer to these questions is the same: They refuse to acknowledge the conclusions that are logically compelled by their premises. And why do they refuse? Because they are simpering cowards.

In the comments to KF’s recent post, the bleating from one “JSmith” is especially repulsive.  William J. Murray asked JSmith why his subjective preference for certain moral positions was different from his subjective preference for a particular flavor of ice cream.  JSmith refused to respond.  Instead, he argued that even asking the question was dishonest.  JSmith wrote:

[WJM]  was using a dishonest tactic which he always uses. Trying to equate the dislike you have for your child being killed with the dislike you have for chocolate ice cream.

Umm, JSmith, did you not notice that you just used the word “dislike” twice?  WJM argued that you base your morality on subjective preference (i.e., what you “like”). He argued further that people base their decision about which ice cream to eat based on subjective preference (i.e., which ice cream they “like”).  Everyone concedes that the felt intensity of your subjective preference that your child not be killed is much greater than the felt intensity of your subjective preference for, say, vanilla ice cream.

OK. You feel the subjective preferences differently. They are still both subjective preferences.

This is glaringly obvious and admitted — even celebrated — by brave atheists.  Nietzsche again:

The noble type of man regards HIMSELF as a determiner of values; he does not require to be approved of; he passes the judgment: “What is injurious to me is injurious in itself;” he knows that it is he himself only who confers honour on things; he is a CREATOR OF VALUES. He honours whatever he recognizes in himself: such morality equals self-glorification. . . . one may act towards beings of a lower rank, towards all that is foreign, just as seems good to one, or “as the heart desires,” and in any case “beyond good and evil”

Why does JSmith run from conclusions absolutely compelled by his own premises?  Because he is a simpering coward.  In his own mind he cannot possibly be a nihilist.  He lives his comfortable little bourgeois life, a life that has been built upon a foundation of a Christian cultural heritage centuries in the making.  And standing on that foundation he thinks of himself as a decent fellow.   And so he spews his oh-so-progressive views into our combox with never a thought to the end of the logical road to which his premises lead.

Mr. Smith, allow me to show you the end of that road:

 

Comments
SB
Yours is the mark of a liberal, and as I have suggested, liberals get people killed. Its a way of playing word games so that you can have it both ways.
No, my remark is that of someone who is at least being honest with himself. To test this, a simple question; If abortion is once again made illegal, would you advocate for first degree murder charges against any woman who has an abortion?JSmith
January 2, 2018
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B
It has not escaped anyone’s notice that you have studiously avoided answering.
Please refer to the last paragraph of comment 221 in this thread. I think that it answers your question in a way that any intelligent being would agree with. https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/can-morals-be-grounded-as-objective-knowledge/#comment-647125 UD Editors: Coward.JSmith
January 2, 2018
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No, I support the right to life. Whether this extends to a mass of cells with no ability to think or feel pain, I am on the fence.
Yours is the mark of a liberal, and as I have suggested, liberals get people killed. Its a way of playing word games so that you can have it both ways. You say you support life, but you rationalize the killing of helpless, unborn humans on the grounds that they are not really human. This is what liberals do. You carry on as one who is open minded and compassionate, but if unborn babies get in your way, you are fine if the government authorizes their execution. Since children in the womb get in your way, you find reasons to get rid of them. The death penalty is in an entirely different moral universe. Unlike abortion, it is not an *intrinsic* evil. There are conditions, however rare, that it can be justified. Your attempt to distract with this issue is more evidence that you are pro-abortion in spite of your claims to the contrary.StephenB
January 2, 2018
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T7
Are you saying there should not be a right to life and the state (or anyone) can kill another at will?
No, I support the right to life. Whether this extends to a mass of cells with no ability to think or feel pain, I am on the fence. But reason leads me to conclude that the mass of cells’ rights aren’t as high as those who can think and feel pain.but I am already on record as saying that I oppose abortion but would prefer to address it from the unwanted pregnancy perspective. Comprehensive non judgemental sex education from an early age and unrestricted access to birth control.
Do you believe that there are rights to property..
Man-made legal rights? Yes. But I might be biased by the fact that I own property.
...and liberty?
Yes. But not unconditional. But again, these are man-made rights.
Should rights to property and liberty be able to be forfeited with due process?
Yes. But again, we are talking about rights that we give to ourselves as a society. Not objective rights.JSmith
January 2, 2018
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The issue of slavery was definitely one of the major factors contributing to the war, but it certainly wasn’t the only one. It was the only one despite what some lost cause types might claim. But you clearly are missing the point which is: Why should those in the North care about the problems facing blacks in the South? But I wasn’t aware that objective morality was negotiable. Morality is not negotiable. How we get through life most certainly is. Nobody here as a claim to purity. The irony, though, is that the ones who broke up the Whig Party and started the GOP thought The Fugitive Slave Act was an immoral compromise.tribune7
January 2, 2018
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JSmith, I still have three questions for you: 1. Are you absolutely certain that it is an objective fact that treating women as if they are not persons is wrong? 2. Are you absolutely certain that it is an objective fact that it is wrong to treat black persons as inferior to white persons? 3. Are you absolutely certain that it is an objective fact that counting black people as 3/5 of a person when determining government representatives is wrong? I would like yes/no answers to those questions. I will show you how that is done by giving my yes/no answers to those questions: 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Yes It has not escaped anyone's notice that you have studiously avoided answering.Barry Arrington
January 2, 2018
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T7
JS: How can an amendment passed after the civil war be the reason for the civil war? T7: But that’s not what you implied when you said And it certainly wasn’t all for the purpose of making blacks equal players in the American experience. What you implied was that the Civil War had nothing to do i.e. “certainly” with making Blacks equal when the laws passed by the victors attempted to do just that.
You obviously missed my statement:
The issue of slavery was definitely one of the major factors contributing to the war, but it certainly wasn’t the only one. And it certainly wasn’t all for the purpose of making blacks equal players in the American experience.
And if it was all about making blacks equal players in the American experience, why did it take another 100 years to extend the vote to a large percentage of them?
One of the problems in this discussion is you choose words poorly and don’t think about what you write.
Mrs. McTavish, my grade 11 English teacher would probably agree with you.
The absolute , objective, universal morality most certainly did not change and it should not be hard to understand that.
As exemplified by the Jim Crow laws.
This is a very good point. The slave owners wanted the slaves to be counted fully with regard to apportionment for congressional representation. The abolitionists didn’t want them counted at all as obviously this would have increased the power of the slave states dramatically. The 3/5 was a compromise.
I know it was a political compromise. As was the fugitive slavery act. But I wasn’t aware that objective morality was negotiable. It seems rather subjective to me.JSmith
January 2, 2018
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Is pornography involving adults objectively moral or immoral? Thinking of others as objects is immoral, as is letting yourself be used as one. It's a bad idea, though, to make it illegal.tribune7
January 2, 2018
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JS There is the objective right to life, which is enshrined in the founding documents, and then there is the liberal’s subjective notion of a right to kill people that get in your way. You do realize that you are speaking from a country that allows capital punishment, the willfull taking of another life? Are you saying there should not be a right to life and the state (or anyone) can kill another at will? Do you believe that there are rights to property and liberty? Should rights to property and liberty be able to be forfeited with due process?tribune7
January 2, 2018
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There is the objective right to life, which is enshrined in the founding documents, and then there is the liberal’s subjective notion of a right to kill people that get in your way.
Politics, really? You're either a conservative or on Team Death and Tyranny? (I'm neither conservative nor liberal so this means nothing to me personally.) And if anyone does anything evil then they weren't really conservative. I can't help but wonder: Is pornography involving adults objectively moral or immoral? And do conservatives believe that it should be legal or illegal? (For the record, I don't view pornography either.)OldAndrew
January 2, 2018
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bb Slave states wanted to count Blacks in their populations, to increase the number of representatives in congress, while denying slaves a vote. The 3/5 thing was a political move, by those that objectively held that slavery was wrong, to reduce slave-holder representation in the House and eventually outlaw it. This is a very good point. The slave owners wanted the slaves to be counted fully with regard to apportionment for congressional representation. The abolitionists didn't want them counted at all as obviously this would have increased the power of the slave states dramatically. The 3/5 was a compromise.tribune7
January 2, 2018
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SB
In other words, he ignored the basic human right to live. There is the objective right to life, which is enshrined in the founding documents, and then there is the liberal’s subjective notion of a right to kill people that get in your way.
You do realize that you are speaking from a country that allows capital punishment, the willfull taking of another life? And the states that still have the death penalty tend to be those that are considered “conservative.JSmith
January 2, 2018
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JS How can an amendment passed after the civil war be the reason for the civil war? But that's not what you implied when you said And it certainly wasn’t all for the purpose of making blacks equal players in the American experience. What you implied was that the Civil War had nothing to do i.e. "certainly" with making Blacks equal when the laws passed by the victors attempted to do just that. You can fairly point out the laws were ineffective but you cannot deny their purpose. One of the problems in this discussion is you choose words poorly and don't think about what you write. Most of the same people who accepted the Fugitive Slave Act were around in the lead up to the civil war. Did their absolute, objective, universal morality change in that decade? Actually no. The Fugitive Slave Act was not accepted. It's passage led to the dissolution of the Whig Party and the creation of the Republican Party which led to a Republican president in 1860 which led to the Civil War. The absolute , objective, universal morality most certainly did not change and it should not be hard to understand that.tribune7
January 2, 2018
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It was a liberal decision because you disagree with it.
No, it was a liberal decision because it embodied liberal principles, including a contempt for the rule of law and preference for made up rights.
It was made by people who hold conservative beliefs. All this shows is that not all conservatives agree on everything and not all liberals agree on everything.
Conservatives are consistently on the side of the rule of law and liberals are consistently on the side of made up rights. The fact that many Republicans are liberal and that all democrats are liberal is a side issue. We are, at least I am, discussing principles, not labels.
That is not how the justices saw it.
Yes it is. Justice Harry Blackman stated that the so-called "right to privacy" justifies abortion, which is the deliberate killing of another human being. In other words, he ignored the basic human right to live. There is the objective right to life, which is enshrined in the founding documents, and then there is the liberal's subjective notion of a right to kill people that get in your way. It's as simple as that. When the natural moral law is ignored, tyranny and death always follow.
Again, that is not how the justices saw it.
It is what they wrote.StephenB
January 2, 2018
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JS @38 "..that blacks were inferior to whites and only counted as 3/5 of a person when determining government representatives" Slave states wanted to count Blacks in their populations, to increase the number of representatives in congress, while denying slaves a vote. The 3/5 thing was a political move, by those that objectively held that slavery was wrong, to reduce slave-holder representation in the House and eventually outlaw it.bb
January 2, 2018
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T7
JS: And it certainly wasn’t all for the purpose of making blacks equal players in the American experience. T7: Actually, it was: https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv
How can an amendment passed after the civil war be the reason for the civil war? And in spite of this amendment, several states denied blacks the right to vote into the the 1960s.
JS: Is this the same absolute, objective, universal morality that resulted in the Fugitive Slave Act in 1850? T7: You should not have taken the risk. Read that question over slowly, consider the context in which you are raising it and see if you can figure out what is so remarkably stupid about it.
No, I will stick to my answer. Most of the same people who accepted the Fugitive Slave Act were around in the lead up to the civil war. Did their absolute, objective, universal morality change in that decade?JSmith
January 2, 2018
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That is not how the justices saw it.
Yes it is. They just didn't utilize the phrase "made up right". The reason abortion was presented to courts to begin with is because some powerful people (social engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc...) wanted abortions to happen and happen legally. The SCOTUS decision didn't happen in a vacuum. The court wasn't struck by lightning one day and a light bulb of profundity went off. The skids were greased. And the push was on until people got what they wanted. Andrewasauber
January 2, 2018
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SB that the Natural Moral Law was the standard that ended both outrages, not just one of them. EXACTLY! Man, in his imagination, can justify any action. Being able to justify an action does not make an action just. This is one of the life lessons that should be acquired by the time one leaves childhood. Ironically, concerning our friend, questioning laws and cultural consensus can, in fact, only be appropriate if there is some absolute moral standard against which one can weight them.tribune7
January 2, 2018
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SB
OK. No problem. Still, I am not clear on your position. Are you now saying that you agree that morality is objective? Is this a change in your position? Are you saying that morality is objective, but we can’t know that it is objective? You seem to be presenting a moving target.
I apologize if it appears this way. I certainly am not trying to do so. What I am trying to say is that the fact that we have this sense of morality (moral governance) is as close to an objective fact as you can get. We all live by deeply ingrained feelings of right and wrong (let's call them moral values) and we feel deeply uncomfortable and guilty if, by our free will, we choose to act counter to any of these. This moral governance and how we react to it is an objective fact almost as true as the objectivity of hunger and thirst. What I am arguing is subjective is the actual moral values that become ingrained in us.
Why do you continue to respond to my comments by changing the subject? It was most definitely a liberal decision.
It was a liberal decision because you disagree with it. It was made by people who hold conservative beliefs. All this shows is that not all conservatives agree on everything and not all liberals agree on everything.
In Roe vs Wade, they allowed a made up right to trump the basic right to life.
That is not how the justices saw it.
So it was with the Obergefelt decision. They rendered a decision based on a made up right.
Again, that is not how the justices saw it. I don't claim to bet an expert on Roe v Wade or any other US Supreme Court decision but if it is anything like the Canadian Supreme Court, many of the rulings they give are because the law that is being questioned is very poorly written. We had one recently on doctor assisted suicide that effectively overturned the governments legislation. Not because they were in favour or against doctor assisted suicide, but because the way it was written violated our charter of rights. The government was tasked with redrafting it in a way that it wouldn't violate the charter.JSmith
January 2, 2018
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It was part of the British act that banned it in the commonwealth. I never said that Canada was innocent in all of this. We have plenty of things to apologize for. You should hang your head in shame. And it certainly wasn’t all for the purpose of making blacks equal players in the American experience. Actually, it was: https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv Is this the same absolute, objective, universal morality that resulted in the Fugitive Slave Act in 1850? You should not have taken the risk. Read that question over slowly, consider the context in which you are raising it and see if you can figure out what is so remarkably stupid about it.tribune7
January 2, 2018
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T7
Were you aware that Canada didn’t ban slavery until 1833? Probably not.
Yes. I knew that. It was part of the British act that banned it in the commonwealth. I never said that Canada was innocent in all of this. We have plenty of things to apologize for.
And what exactly do you think was the reason for the Civil War? Why should those in the North care about the problems facing blacks in the South?
The issue of slavery was definitely one of the major factors contributing to the war, but it certainly wasn't the only one. And it certainly wasn't all for the purpose of making blacks equal players in the American experience.
Could it be that they held to an absolute, objective, universal morality? Could it be anything else? Is this the same absolute, objective, universal morality that resulted in the Fugitive Slave Act in 1850? The act that required free states to return escaped slaves to their owners ?.
Please understand that last question was rhetorical and that you will only look foolish if you try to take it otherwise.
I will take that risk.
JSmith
January 2, 2018
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Roe vs. Wade... So this was hardly a Liberal decision.
Well, it was the result of many Liberal decisions prior to SCOTUS. Sexual Liberators and Population Controllers relentlessly combined their activism and the result has been a massive slaughter of human babies that continues today. BTW, The March For Life 2018 is Friday, Jan 19th. http://marchforlife.org/mfl-2018/rally-march-info/ I'll be there. Andrewasauber
January 2, 2018
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I’m afraid that you did misinterpret what I was saying. I was referring to moral governance (as frequently mentioned by KF), not government.
OK. No problem. Still, I am not clear on your position. Are you now saying that you agree that morality is objective? Is this a change in your position? Are you saying that morality is objective, but we can't know that it is objective? You seem to be presenting a moving target.
And this happened in a Republican dominated court. Three of the four republican judges voted in favour of Roe. Of the dissenting votes, one was Republican and one was Conservative. So this was hardly a Liberal decision.
Why do you continue to respond to my comments by changing the subject? It was most definitely a liberal decision. There are plenty of irresponsible and liberal Republicans. What does that have to do with the fact that they do not respect the rule of law or the objective principles inherent in the founding documents. You asked for two examples of lawlessness and I provided them. In Roe vs Wade, they allowed a made up right to trump the basic right to life. That is liberalism. So it was with the Obergefelt decision. They rendered a decision based on a made up right.StephenB
January 2, 2018
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Tribune 7, I agree with everything you said. We can argue successfully that objective principles were responsible for ending slavery. The reason I intended to use the example of institutional racism was because, historically, the change happened so suddenly and so dramatically so that it is impossible to deny the salient fact: Martin Luther King alluded specifically to the objective nature of the natural moral law when he demanded justice for blacks. Still, it is probably a good thing to point out, as you implied, that the Natural Moral Law was the standard that ended both outrages, not just one of them.StephenB
January 2, 2018
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SB
Yes. I was interpreting this comment: What this governance acts on, however, is subjective. Or, more accurately, I see no evidence of it being objective, and plenty that it is subjective. Eternal? Nobody knows that.
I'm afraid that you did misinterpret what I was saying. I was referring to moral governance (as frequently mentioned by KF), not government.
I am glad that you raised the issue, because I actually meant the end of institutional racism, not slavery as such. This was a response to the objective moral law.
OK. That makes more sense.
Sure. Roe vs Wade
Three of the four republican judges voted in favour of Roe. Of the dissenting votes, one was Republican and one was Conservative. So this was hardly a Liberal decision.
Obergefell vs Hodges
And this happened in a Republican dominated court.JSmith
January 2, 2018
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john_a_designer, When I say this:
JSmith believes that owning people is wrong.
I'm establishing (or attempting to establish) common ground. So I'm confused by this:
Human rights do not depend what JSmith believes or thinks.
Why argue over a point of rather obvious agreement? I'm not saying that those rights depend on what anyone does or doesn't believe.
Who is qualified to determine moral truth?
I think my answer to that would be the same as yours. I think we could also agree that moral objectivity depends on that conclusion. If it were true that we were all a chemical accident then moral objectivity would not exist. Belief in moral objectivity requires first belief in an intelligent design or designer. I think that belief can be reasonably supported by logic, reason, and perhaps even science. It also requires going a step further an believing that not only is there a designer, but that the designer is the God I believe in. I could make a pretty good case for that as well, but it wouldn't be scientific. (We'd also have to separate the question of whether the designer defines moral standards from what those standards are, because you're guaranteed to get some disagreement on that as well unless you stick to simple stuff like murder and slavery.) So as I see it, insisting that someone accept moral objectivism is really the same as insisting that they accept my religion. And if you don't accept my religion, then you're okay with torture and slavery. That's just not going to work. People don't generally respond to being compared to Nazis and blamed for all of the world's evils. And it would be nonsense to blame atheists anyway.OldAndrew
January 2, 2018
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For the record, is it because of DOI’s objective self-evident principles that slavery in the United States was ended. . . I wouldn’t underestimate that tiny little civil war that you had. When the Declaration was written slavery was legal in every one of the 13 colonies By the time the Treaty of Paris was signed, abolition was underway in Pennsylvania, Massachusetts and New Hampshire. By the time the Constitution was ratified (1789) abolition was underway in Connecticut and Rhode Island and slavery was banned in the Northwest Territories. Were you aware that Canada didn't ban slavery until 1833? Probably not. And what exactly do you think was the reason for the Civil War? Why should those in the North care about the problems facing blacks in the South? Could it be that they held to an absolute, objective, universal morality? Could it be anything else? Please understand that last question was rhetorical and that you will only look foolish if you try to take it otherwise.tribune7
January 2, 2018
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JSmith
Could you remind me where I said that.
Yes. I was interpreting this comment:
What this governance acts on, however, is subjective. Or, more accurately, I see no evidence of it being objective, and plenty that it is subjective. Eternal? Nobody knows that.
If I interpreted it wrong way, please let me know. SB: For the record, is it because of DOI’s objective self-evident principles that slavery in the United States was ended.
I wouldn’t underestimate that tiny little civil war that you had.
I am glad that you raised the issue, because I actually meant the end of institutional racism, not slavery as such. This was a response to the objective moral law.
Could you provide me a couple concrete examples? (Lawlessness by liberals)
Sure. Roe vs Wade. Obergefell vs Hodges.StephenB
January 2, 2018
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OldAndrew,
JSmith believes that owning people is wrong. There’s a apparently much to-do over whether or not he believes that it’s objectively wrong, but no one seems to doubt that believes it’s wrong. I think we can also agree that he neither enslaves nor wishes to enslave any humans of any race.
Human rights do not depend what JSmith believes or thinks. Human rights are universal, which means there is a universal obligation to respect and protect them and that can’t be unless they are universally (“objectively”) true. JSmith opinions do not determine universal rights or universal moral truth. Who is qualified to determine moral truth? Whose judgements and pronouncements are we obligated to accept as moral truth? That’s the key question in discussions like this.john_a_designer
January 2, 2018
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SB
You said that governments rely on subjectively arrived at principles and I refuted the point.
Could you remind me where I said that.
For the record, is it because of DOI's objective self-evident principles that slavery in the United States was ended.
I wouldn't underestimate that tiny little civil war that you had.
Sadly, because liberals like yourself gained power, those principles have been ignored and, in many cases, abolished.
Could you provide me a couple concrete examples? I don't deny that liberals make bad decisions. So do conservatives. Nobody is omniscient about the consequences of all of our actions. Sadly, we often learn by trial and error.JSmith
January 2, 2018
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