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JSmith, Simpering Coward

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In The New Atheists Are Simpering Cowards  I wrote:

For Nietzsche nature is cruel and indifferent to suffering, and that cruel indifference is a good thing. The strong rule the weak and that is as it should be. And why should the strong rule the weak? Because that is the natural order of things of course. In a world where God is dead, objective morality is merely an illusion slaves have foisted on masters as a sort of self-defense mechanism.

When Nietzsche urges us to go beyond good and evil, he is urging us to recognize the implications of God’s death for morality. God is the only possible source of transcendent objective moral norms. If God does not exist then neither do transcendent objective moral norms. And if transcendent objective moral norms do not exist, neither do “good” and “evil” in the traditional senses of those words. There is only a perpetual battle of all against all, and “good” is a synonym for prevailing in that battle, and “evil” is a synonym for losing. . . .

I feel like my ears are going to bleed at the bleating of the new atheists who write in these pages. They go on and on and on and on about how morality is rooted in empathy and the avoidance of suffering. Nietzsche would have spit his contempt on them, for they are espousing the “herd animal” Christian slave-morality he disdained and which, ironically, they claim to have risen above. How many times have the atheists insisted, “we are just as ‘good’ as you”? Why have they failed to learn from Nietzsche that “good” means nothing. Why do they insist that they conform to a standard that they also insist does not exist?

The answer to these questions is the same: They refuse to acknowledge the conclusions that are logically compelled by their premises. And why do they refuse? Because they are simpering cowards.

In the comments to KF’s recent post, the bleating from one “JSmith” is especially repulsive.  William J. Murray asked JSmith why his subjective preference for certain moral positions was different from his subjective preference for a particular flavor of ice cream.  JSmith refused to respond.  Instead, he argued that even asking the question was dishonest.  JSmith wrote:

[WJM]  was using a dishonest tactic which he always uses. Trying to equate the dislike you have for your child being killed with the dislike you have for chocolate ice cream.

Umm, JSmith, did you not notice that you just used the word “dislike” twice?  WJM argued that you base your morality on subjective preference (i.e., what you “like”). He argued further that people base their decision about which ice cream to eat based on subjective preference (i.e., which ice cream they “like”).  Everyone concedes that the felt intensity of your subjective preference that your child not be killed is much greater than the felt intensity of your subjective preference for, say, vanilla ice cream.

OK. You feel the subjective preferences differently. They are still both subjective preferences.

This is glaringly obvious and admitted — even celebrated — by brave atheists.  Nietzsche again:

The noble type of man regards HIMSELF as a determiner of values; he does not require to be approved of; he passes the judgment: “What is injurious to me is injurious in itself;” he knows that it is he himself only who confers honour on things; he is a CREATOR OF VALUES. He honours whatever he recognizes in himself: such morality equals self-glorification. . . . one may act towards beings of a lower rank, towards all that is foreign, just as seems good to one, or “as the heart desires,” and in any case “beyond good and evil”

Why does JSmith run from conclusions absolutely compelled by his own premises?  Because he is a simpering coward.  In his own mind he cannot possibly be a nihilist.  He lives his comfortable little bourgeois life, a life that has been built upon a foundation of a Christian cultural heritage centuries in the making.  And standing on that foundation he thinks of himself as a decent fellow.   And so he spews his oh-so-progressive views into our combox with never a thought to the end of the logical road to which his premises lead.

Mr. Smith, allow me to show you the end of that road:

 

Comments
J Smith
They may have *held* that those truths were self-evident, but that only shows that they talked the talk. They certainly didn’t walk the walk.
Irrelevant to the point. Please stay on topic. You said that governments rely on subjectively arrived at principles and I refuted the point. Not everyone always followed those objective principles in the DOI, but that is not the issue on the table. It is because of those objective self-evident principles that slavery in the United States was ended. Sadly, because liberals like yourself gained power, those principles have been ignored and, in many cases, abolished. In too many places, we now have arbitrary laws imposed by a small number of tyrants who are accountable to no one. They have exempted themselves from the rule of law. Indeed, they have become a law unto themselves--the very thing the Constitution was designed to prevent.StephenB
January 2, 2018
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OA
To either back down from that harsh accusation or to apply such blistering language equally would display true courage.
T7
I second this.
Thank you for the kind words. For the record, I do believe that the founding fathers truly believed that all men are created equal. But, unfortunately, they were victims of the commonly held Eurocentric belief that non-whites and women were inferior to white men.JSmith
January 2, 2018
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To either back down from that harsh accusation or to apply such blistering language equally would display true courage. I second this.tribune7
January 2, 2018
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We hold these truths to be SELF EVIDENT, that all men are created equal.
I find myself playing devil's advocate, as I don't personally view morality as either subjective or relative. I'm not actually on JSmith's side. But I'm honestly boggled by the use of the above statement as a counterargument or example of correct thinking, as those who said it either a) didn't actually believe that it was true, objectively or otherwise, or b) believed that it was self-evident and chose to deliberately practice heinous evil. JSmith believes that owning people is wrong. There's a apparently much to-do over whether or not he believes that it's objectively wrong, but no one seems to doubt that believes it's wrong. I think we can also agree that he neither enslaves nor wishes to enslave any humans of any race. If this makes him a "simpering coward," then how do we judge those who actually did enslave other humans while professing absolute knowledge that all men are equal? Were the founding fathers of the United States simpering cowards? I don't have to answer that question because I haven't called anyone a simpering coward. To either back down from that harsh accusation or to apply such blistering language equally would display true courage.OldAndrew
January 2, 2018
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Hi Barry. Is "simpering cowards" a phrase from Nietzsche?Mung
January 2, 2018
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1. Are you absolutely certain that it is an objective fact that treating women as if they are not persons is wrong? 2. Are you absolutely certain that it is an objective fact that it is wrong to treat black persons as inferior to white persons? 3. Are you absolutely certain that it is an objective fact that counting black people as 3/5 of a person when determining government representatives is wrong? JSmith's response: [crickets] Prediction: JSmith will respond with simpering cowardice. Prediction confirmed.Barry Arrington
January 2, 2018
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D
1) Waiting lists. Suffer for a year or more before receiving any treatment.. for my father, 3 years before knee replacement.
The wait lists are only for elective surgery or tests I acknowledged that they are far too long and is one of the problems with our system.
2) Limited access to technology....Please note: the opening of private MRI clinics put pressure on the ‘public’ system and forced them to subcontract (on a limited basis) to bring the wait time down to 70 days.
I have no problem with private delivery of health care services. I would like to see more of it. It is who pays for them that is important. The Canadian system extensively uses private delivery services. Family doctors are all self-employed, or employed by private clinics. There are many private x-ray clinics, physiotherapists, medical laboratories, home care nursing, etc. that are privately run. In most cases, they are paid by the government, not the patient (health care is provincial).
3) No control over treatment. The number of doctors, hospitals, beds, and treatments is decided by faceless bureaucrats. Another method for limiting costs is limiting access to doctors. Even when you have a doctor, a good doctor, the doctor is only able to provide the services covered by the public system. If you have a bad doctor, he/she understands very well that *you* don’t pay the bills, the state does. The doctor does not have to satisfy *you* if he/she wants to be paid, only the state bureaucracy.
In this, you are misinformed. Patients have control over their treatment. They can seek second or third opinions. Doctors may provide services that are not covered by the system on a patient pay basis. Typically these are for services that are not significant health issues. For example, I had a cyst removed from my neck and had to pay for i. Patients must pay for vasectomies. Yes, the government, through hospital boards, dictate the number of doctors and beds in a hospital, based on demographics and perceived needs (admittedly, in a flawed way). As opposed to US private hospitals that make those decisions based the profit margin.
4) Almost impossible to sue a doctor for malpractice, etc. The state has given regulatory and disciplinary powers to the Medical Associations. The Medical Associations respond to complaints in closed session and their judgements are (usually) confidential.
Canada has never been as litigious a society as the US and does not tolerate frivolous lawsuits to the extent that the US does. Which, in my opinion, is a good thing. That being said, doctors and hospitals do get sued for malpractice, and settlements are often granted. Yes, they are usually confidential but if a doctor loses his/her malpractice insurance, they cannot practice medicine. If the malpractice in criminally negligent or intentional, then the legal system steps in.
5) Encourages abuse. In much the same way that any *insurance* plan does, public health care encourages abuse by both provider and recipient. The bureaucracy is prepared to accept a certain (and ever-growing) level of abuse to maintain the illusion of a smooth-running system.
The system doesn't encourage abuse, but it is certainly prone to it. In spite of this, health care costs are still lower in Canada than the US. In Ontario, we used to be issued a red and white health card. These were replaced y cards with photo ID, largely because of Americans fraudulently using our system.
6) Canada makes it a crime for me to pay my doctor or for my doctor to accept payment from me. “He who pays the piper calls the tune.”
This simply is not true. There are many services that patients pay the doctor for. But for anything covered by the system, doctors are not allowed to accept additional payment. That would be fraud.
There is a reason why people from the world over go to the United States for medical treatment. The system you have may not be perfect (what is?) but it is innovative, responsive, and open.
And people come from all over the world to seek treatment in Canada. Our treatment is second to none. However, the US does benefit from economies of scale. There are some treatments that simply are not performed enough in Canada to justify establishing them within the system. However, in many of these cases, the system will cover the cost of having the treatment performed in the US. There is a high profile case currently in the process of a teen with a very rare skin blistering disease. The Canadian system is paying millions of dollars for his treatment in the US by a doctor who specializes in this disease and has had a small degree of success by using bone marrow transplants.
You may think that government provided health care is laudable but it is not. Look at what *your* government *gives* to the indigent, veterans, and elderly. Imagine receiving that for yourself and your family.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. If it is that we should spend more on the indigent, elderly and veterans and take it out of health care, that is a lame argument. Any society involves balancing different interests. But playing one off against the other is just a decisive tactic. Like blaming illegal Mexicans because you can't find a good paying job.JSmith
January 2, 2018
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SB
No, none of those qualify as objective self evident truths. Our nation was founded on none of those principles. I am surprised that you didn’t know that. Apparently, you are unfamiliar with the Declaration of Independence. “We hold these truths to be SELF EVIDENT, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” Did you notice that those words contain no references to subjective morality?
They may have *held* that those truths were self-evident, but that only shows that they talked the talk. They certainly didn't walk the walk. Blacks were held in slavery for almost a century following independence. Women and blacks did not get the vote until well more than a century after independence. If all men being created equal was so self-evident, why did they not act on it? Could it possibly be because they didn't consider blacks and women to be fully human? As none of them are alive today, we will never know their reasons.JSmith
January 2, 2018
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T7
It is not his opinion. It is proper grammar and using words as they are meant to be used..
Putting *is* into a semtemcex doesn't change it from opinion to fact.JSmith
January 2, 2018
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In the other thread, on where SET's on moral issues take us, through the intelligible law of our morally governed nature: https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/can-morals-be-grounded-as-objective-knowledge/#comment-647040kairosfocus
January 2, 2018
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RVB8, UD is not solely a science discussion site, as can readily be seen from various statements of blog policy. We have long since realised that the roots of disputes over science and linked policy or education etc, are ideological and institutional, tied to domineering worldviews, their media-dominating [but often utterly deceitful and destructive] narratives and agendas. Such therefore affect institutional and community governance and law. It is therefore necessary to also address wider issues. It turns out that what knowledge is (as a basic definition), is problematic in a post-modern age. Much less, what scientific knowledge is and how such can be responsibly warranted. Self-evident first principles of right reason -- God help us, so benighted are we -- are widely doubted or dismissed. The inherent amorality and open invitation to nihilism of evolutionary materialist scientism and its fellow travellers help to entrench evils in institution and community alike. Indeed, such underpin and enable the one million more victims per week holocaust of our living posterity in the womb -- instantly revealing this to be a dark, benighted, utterly and cynically corrupt age. So, we cannot responsibly confine ourselves to a narrow focus. Besides, when we raise serious science issues -- which goes on all the time -- we find that you and many other frequent objectors are either conspicuously absent, or make snide remarks from the sidelines. So, we have no reason to take your latest sneering as anything more than making an ill-informed, unserious noise. FYI, KFkairosfocus
January 2, 2018
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Public health care is not a moral good. I am Canadian and am a recipient of the *blessings* of government health care. It is morally bankrupt on almost every level. 1) Waiting lists. Suffer for a year or more before receiving any treatment.. for my father, 3 years before knee replacement. 2) Limited access to technology. In 1993 there was a 200+ day wait for MRIs in Calgary, AB. After a long legal battle it was decided that entrepreneurs could open 'private' MRI centers. "The effect on waiting times was dramatic. Within 3 months of contracting out these services the wait time in the CRHA had dropped from 200 days to around 50 days then rose, still during the period of contracting out, to about 70 days. In late 2001 the CRHA brought 3 new public MRIs into service and stopped contracting out. The waiting time has stayed in the 70 day range with the system only using the new MRI capacity. The waiting time has recently increased slightly "due to expanding population" to 75 days for elective scans" Please note: the opening of private MRI clinics put pressure on the 'public' system and forced them to subcontract (on a limited basis) to bring the wait time down to 70 days. 3) No control over treatment. The number of doctors, hospitals, beds, and treatments is decided by faceless bureaucrats. Another method for limiting costs is limiting access to doctors. Even when you have a doctor, a good doctor, the doctor is only able to provide the services covered by the public system. If you have a bad doctor, he/she understands very well that *you* don't pay the bills, the state does. The doctor does not have to satisfy *you* if he/she wants to be paid, only the state bureaucracy. 4) Almost impossible to sue a doctor for malpractice, etc. The state has given regulatory and disciplinary powers to the Medical Associations. The Medical Associations respond to complaints in closed session and their judgements are (usually) confidential. 5) Encourages abuse. In much the same way that any *insurance* plan does, public health care encourages abuse by both provider and recipient. The bureaucracy is prepared to accept a certain (and ever-growing) level of abuse to maintain the illusion of a smooth-running system. 6) Canada makes it a crime for me to pay my doctor or for my doctor to accept payment from me. "He who pays the piper calls the tune." There is a reason why people from the world over go to the United States for medical treatment. The system you have may not be perfect (what is?) but it is innovative, responsive, and open. Yes, many people lack health insurance but almost everyone (if not everyone) has access to high quality health care. A great many health care providers offer *pro bono* services to the destitute, the government provides (lower quality) health care to indigents, veterans, and the elderly. You may think that government provided health care is laudable but it is not. Look at what *your* government *gives* to the indigent, veterans, and elderly. Imagine receiving that for yourself and your family. Better to have no insurance, and no government health care except, perhaps, catastrophic health care.dgosse
January 1, 2018
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JSmith:
Like the “truth” that women weren’t persons? Like the “truth” that blacks were inferior to whites and only counted as 3/5 of a person when determining government representatives?
I have three questions for you: 1. Are you absolutely certain that it is an objective fact that treating women as if they are not persons is wrong? 2. Are you absolutely certain that it is an objective fact that it is wrong to treat black persons as inferior to white persons? 3. Are you absolutely certain that it is an objective fact that counting black people as 3/5 of a person when determining government representatives is wrong? I would like yes/no answers to those questions. I will show you how that is done by giving my yes/no answers to those questions: 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Yes Prediction: JSmith will respond with simpering cowardice.Barry Arrington
January 1, 2018
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rvb8,
but also the teachings of Christ.
God help us. Atheist-materialist rvb8 -- who is not even absolutely certain that the Holocaust was evil -- is now lecturing us on the public policy positions Jesus would lean toward in the 21st century United States. Now that's funny.Barry Arrington
January 1, 2018
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Sev,
The Nazis believed in the absolute superiority of their mythical Aryan master-race.
Perhaps. But we are not talking about anything like that are we. We are talking about absolute assurance of self-evident moral truth. I am absolutely sure that murdering millions of innocent people is wrong. You are not. Which of us is more likely to murder millions of innocent people in however a small degree?Barry Arrington
January 1, 2018
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CR:
So, a moral belief hinges on whether it has been legitimatized in some way? I’d suggest that is spectacularly irrelevant.
If that is what I had said, it would not only be irrelevant, it would be wrong. Fortunately, I didn't say it.StephenB
January 1, 2018
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J Smith
Like the “truth” that women weren’t persons? Like the “truth” that blacks were inferior to whites and only counted as 3/5 of a person when determining government representatives? Like the “truth” that some of these enlightened founding fathers owned slaves an even had children by them? Harvey Weinstein would probably fit right in with some of them.
No, none of those qualify as objective self evident truths. Our nation was founded on none of those principles. I am surprised that you didn't know that. Apparently, you are unfamiliar with the Declaration of Independence. "We hold these truths to be SELF EVIDENT, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Did you notice that those words contain no references to subjective morality?StephenB
January 1, 2018
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Again, this is spectacularly irrelevant. We are not discussing the strength of one’s moral beliefs but rather the legitimacy of ones moral beliefs.
So, a moral belief hinges on whether it has been legitimatized in some way? I'd suggest that is spectacularly irrelevant. In what way does whether a belief being considered legitimate or illegitimate have to do with whether it is true or false? And how do you decide which beliefs are legitimate? By rational argument?critical rationalist
January 1, 2018
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I think you don’t even know what you say. Case in point courtesy of SB: “It isn’t “probably” an objective fact, it is obviously an objective fact.” That is his opinion. It is not his opinion. It is proper grammar and using words as they are meant to be used..tribune7
January 1, 2018
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SB
What J Smith is saying is that governments arrive at their moral code through *subjective* means, but that is an irrelevant and insupportable claim. It is irrelevant because we are discussing only the nature of the code. It is insupportable because we know of at least one group of leaders, the US Founding Fathers, who arrived at their code by apprehending self evident moral truths.
Like the “truth” that women weren’t persons? Like the “truth” that blacks were inferior to whites and only counted as 3/5 of a person when determining government representatives? Like the “truth” that some of these enlightened founding fathers owned slaves an even had children by them? Harvey Weinstein would probably fit right in with some of them. But don’t get me wrong. They brought forward a country and society that everyone can be proud of. But they were men (all white and not a woman in sight) of their times. And as such, should be judged by the standards of their day. And by those standards, most of them rose far above them.JSmith
January 1, 2018
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I think the most pertinent point is why a subject on pure philosophy, morality, and right and wrong, is on a 'science' web site. That said, public health care, is a moral good. This is for the simple reason that there are many members of society who can not afford good, quality health care. For anybody to deny this, (I specifically point to US Republicans), is to deny not only their belief in 'objective' morality, but also the teachings of Christ.rvb8
January 1, 2018
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T7
I think you don’t even know what you say. Case in point courtesy of SB: “It isn’t “probably” an objective fact, it is obviously an objective fact.”
That is his opinion. I agree that it is almost certainly an objective fact that everyone has a strong moral sense, but unless you can examine everyone alive, everyone who has ever been alive, and everyone that will be alive, it is still something that is almost certainly true.JSmith
January 1, 2018
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Barry Arrington @ 17
If that terrible image illustrates anything it is what can happen when absolutist thinking – whether political or religious – takes control of a society.
Just exactly the opposite is true. If there had been more absolutist thinking — such as absolute adherence to the moral principle “do not murder” — the Holocaust could never have happened.
The Nazis believed in the absolute superiority of their mythical Aryan master-race. All other races were lesser and did not count. The Holocaust followed inevitably from that absolutist and exclusivist premise. If they had treated other races as equals and taken their needs and wishes into consideration - in effect, sought a consensus - the Holocaust would never have happened. I have long held that absolutist and exclusivist thinking is what characterizes the worst excesses of oppressive regimes throughout history, just look at North Korea. That is what we should beware of. Barry Arrington @ 28
Has it been decided absolutely, objectively and irrevocably that torturing infants for pleasure is evil? Then welcome to moral objectivism
"Decided" implies decided by someone since only an intelligent agent makes such decisions. That makes it subjective. I assume that we all agree that torturing infants for pleasure is evil. That means we have a lot of subjective opinions that are in agreement. Do a lot of subjective opinions that are in agreement imply an objective property? If a lot of people look at a rose and agree that it is beautiful, does that make beauty an objective property of the rose like its smell or color?Seversky
January 1, 2018
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BA @ 17 wrote: The Atheist/Materialists who comment in these pages cannot bring themselves to condemn the Holocaust as an absolute objective evil. Do you not see how that attitude allows the Holocaust to slip from the “unthinkable” category to the “thinkable” category? And once it becomes thinkable, it is one step closer to “doable." Brilliant. Also, BA @ 28: Excellent point and good question. My guess is that he is still fighting it (belief in moral objectivism) because of what it might ultimately mean.Truth Will Set You Free
January 1, 2018
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JS That is not what I said. I think you don't even know what you say. Case in point courtesy of SB: It isn’t “probably” an objective fact, it is obviously an objective fact.tribune7
January 1, 2018
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OA, I agree with most of what you have said. Other that morals being objective. My concern with claiming that any moral values or actions are objective is that it closes the door to questioning them. And, by so doing, you open the door to all sorts of possible problems. People here will often blame the holocaust on atheism, or Darwinism, completely ignoring the fact that it could not have happened without the active and passive complicity of many thousands of Christians. Martin Luther, a raving anti-Semite, probably played a significant role in the mindset of Germany and other parts of Europe with respect to Jews. I doubt that Hitler was influenced by Luther directly other than as a way to manipulate the German people into blindly accepting the persecution of the Jews and the ultimate holocaust. The same way that he manipulated Darwin’s theory to further justify his actions. So, if we are going to be honest, Christianity had a significant role in the holocaust. Not Jesus’ teachings, but those who blindly accepted the prejudices of those who presumed to teach for Jesus.JSmith
January 1, 2018
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Moral governance is probably an objective fact.
It isn't "probably" an objective fact, it is obviously an objective fact. But we are discussing transcendent truths, not mere facts. This is just another distraction.
I have never heard of anyone, even psychopaths, who does not have a strong moral sense.
Again, this is spectacularly irrelevant. We are not discussing the strength of one's moral beliefs but rather the legitimacy of ones moral beliefs.
Or, more accurately, I see no evidence of it being objective, and plenty that it is subjective. Eternal? Nobody knows that.
JS believes that past bad behavior is evidence that no objective moral code exists. Inasmuch as men have murdered other men, there is no objective moral code that forbids it. Does everyone understand why that claim has no merit?StephenB
January 1, 2018
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What J Smith is saying is that governments arrive at their moral code through *subjective* means, but that is an irrelevant and insupportable claim. It is irrelevant because we are discussing only the nature of the code. It is insupportable because we know of at least one group of leaders, the US Founding Fathers, who arrived at their code by apprehending self evident moral truths.StephenB
January 1, 2018
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T7
So morals are objective and eternal and we are in agreement?
That is not what I said. Moral governance is probably an objective fact. I have never heard of anyone, even psychopaths, who does not have a strong moral sense. What this governance acts on, however, is subjective. Or, more accurately, I see no evidence of it being objective, and plenty that it is subjective. Eternal? Nobody knows that.JSmith
January 1, 2018
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JSmith
Why don’t we discuss something that is not absurd and something that is far from decided.
Has it been decided absolutely, objectively and irrevocably that torturing infants for pleasure is evil? Then welcome to moral objectivism. Why did you fight it for so long?Barry Arrington
January 1, 2018
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