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JSmith, Simpering Coward

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In The New Atheists Are Simpering Cowards  I wrote:

For Nietzsche nature is cruel and indifferent to suffering, and that cruel indifference is a good thing. The strong rule the weak and that is as it should be. And why should the strong rule the weak? Because that is the natural order of things of course. In a world where God is dead, objective morality is merely an illusion slaves have foisted on masters as a sort of self-defense mechanism.

When Nietzsche urges us to go beyond good and evil, he is urging us to recognize the implications of God’s death for morality. God is the only possible source of transcendent objective moral norms. If God does not exist then neither do transcendent objective moral norms. And if transcendent objective moral norms do not exist, neither do “good” and “evil” in the traditional senses of those words. There is only a perpetual battle of all against all, and “good” is a synonym for prevailing in that battle, and “evil” is a synonym for losing. . . .

I feel like my ears are going to bleed at the bleating of the new atheists who write in these pages. They go on and on and on and on about how morality is rooted in empathy and the avoidance of suffering. Nietzsche would have spit his contempt on them, for they are espousing the “herd animal” Christian slave-morality he disdained and which, ironically, they claim to have risen above. How many times have the atheists insisted, “we are just as ‘good’ as you”? Why have they failed to learn from Nietzsche that “good” means nothing. Why do they insist that they conform to a standard that they also insist does not exist?

The answer to these questions is the same: They refuse to acknowledge the conclusions that are logically compelled by their premises. And why do they refuse? Because they are simpering cowards.

In the comments to KF’s recent post, the bleating from one “JSmith” is especially repulsive.  William J. Murray asked JSmith why his subjective preference for certain moral positions was different from his subjective preference for a particular flavor of ice cream.  JSmith refused to respond.  Instead, he argued that even asking the question was dishonest.  JSmith wrote:

[WJM]  was using a dishonest tactic which he always uses. Trying to equate the dislike you have for your child being killed with the dislike you have for chocolate ice cream.

Umm, JSmith, did you not notice that you just used the word “dislike” twice?  WJM argued that you base your morality on subjective preference (i.e., what you “like”). He argued further that people base their decision about which ice cream to eat based on subjective preference (i.e., which ice cream they “like”).  Everyone concedes that the felt intensity of your subjective preference that your child not be killed is much greater than the felt intensity of your subjective preference for, say, vanilla ice cream.

OK. You feel the subjective preferences differently. They are still both subjective preferences.

This is glaringly obvious and admitted — even celebrated — by brave atheists.  Nietzsche again:

The noble type of man regards HIMSELF as a determiner of values; he does not require to be approved of; he passes the judgment: “What is injurious to me is injurious in itself;” he knows that it is he himself only who confers honour on things; he is a CREATOR OF VALUES. He honours whatever he recognizes in himself: such morality equals self-glorification. . . . one may act towards beings of a lower rank, towards all that is foreign, just as seems good to one, or “as the heart desires,” and in any case “beyond good and evil”

Why does JSmith run from conclusions absolutely compelled by his own premises?  Because he is a simpering coward.  In his own mind he cannot possibly be a nihilist.  He lives his comfortable little bourgeois life, a life that has been built upon a foundation of a Christian cultural heritage centuries in the making.  And standing on that foundation he thinks of himself as a decent fellow.   And so he spews his oh-so-progressive views into our combox with never a thought to the end of the logical road to which his premises lead.

Mr. Smith, allow me to show you the end of that road:

 

Comments
SB, I note, "the law is a teacher." For, what is solemnly passed under colour of high justice by parliament or by judges will often lead people to conclude it must be right (especially when it serves fashionable agendas). Therefore, when falsity, injustice and ruinous folly are passed in that manner, it works mischief across the community. A capital current example is the Roe v Wade decision of the US Supreme Court in 1973, which has long since been exposed by the woman involved as based on questionable facts, and to an end that has stained the USA with a river of blood. Where, that such a leading nation with such influence has done this spreads that river across the world. Currently, the toll rises at a million more victims per week, on a total that exceeds 800 millions. Our shame is indelible, we are a terrible generation. I echo St Peter: save yourselves from this untoward generation. KFkairosfocus
January 9, 2018
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JS
js If you can’t see the difference between the two, you are denser than I thought. Which I didn’t think was possible, but you are always surprising me.
Getting a little testy, aren't you? There is no substantial difference between the two. I allowed for the fact that your morality, both individual and societal, are subjective. Your philosophy is bankrupt. You just can’t handle the truth. Meanwhile, you evaded the issue once again. I provide four examples of how subjective morality generates inconsistency in the granting of personal rights, and you simply ignore the point and continue on as sleek as ever. Subjective morality >> anti gay, subjective morality >> pro - gay subjective morality >> back to anti-gay at any time. The problem is that you have no standard of justice on which you can rely. Under the circumstances, you cannot differentiate between a just law and an unjust law, or a fair right from an unfair right. You keep referring to reason, logic, and evidence, but those standards cannot provide a moral code, as I demonstrated several times. In the end, your morality, and the one you recommend for society, is based solely on personal preferences and you have no solution to the problem of conflicting preferences. Sometimes you claim to solve the riddle by "consensus," but then when I point out the failure of that approach, with evidence, you seem to fall apart.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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JS
And where have I said that good and evil don’t exist in the subjective morality realm? I realize that some say that right and wrong, good and evil, don’t exist. But when they say this they are referring to them not existing in the objective sense.
In moral philosophy, the good is referred to in the objective sense.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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SB: To say that legal rights are based on moral values is the same as saying that moral values determine legal rights. Old Andrew
Which are both the exact opposite of saying that legal rights determine moral values.
I never said that legal rights determine social values, nor did I attribute same to JS. You just made it up. Either that or you can't read. I think it is probably the latter. The remainder of your rant is based on an ignorance of JS's claims that all morality is subjective. I don't feel the need to repeat every fact just to provide remedial education for you.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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Thanks, KF. I see. If all possible websites are counted (250 million) then lots of active websites will be in the top 1%.jdk
January 8, 2018
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JS And where have I said that good and evil don’t exist in the subjective morality realm? You really have to work on your understanding of the definitions of words and the implications of how you use them. Good and evil would exist in the "subjective morality realm" only in the opinion of the subject and only the subject would be bound by it. Objective morality applies to all and binds all. This might help you understand it: https://www.diffen.com/difference/Objective_vs_Subjective My comment presupposes a fair society and claims that they, as a fair society, would base their policies on moral values. What determines a "fair society"?tribune7
January 8, 2018
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JS Remember, way back you were unable to say that child rape was an eternal evil. I have a problem with that. . . .Since I made it clear that I don’t think that moral values are either objective or eternal, how would you expect me to answer a dishonest loaded question like this? Be a hypocrite? Excuse me, but what exactly is loaded or dishonest about it? Figure out the answer to that one and you might figure out where some of the scorn you are getting is coming from. Actually, (Hitler) was raised Catholic and turned against it after learning about Martin Luther. Still Christian. Um no. Hitler turned against Catholicism and Christianity because Jesus was Jewish and he came to accept Darwinian evolution: https://www.csustan.edu/history/was-hitler-influenced-darwinism Hitler was not merely anti-semitic but was anti-Christian. His goal was the destruction of the Christian Church: http://lawcollections.library.cornell.edu/nuremberg/catalog/nur:00773tribune7
January 8, 2018
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To say that legal rights are based on moral values is the same as saying that moral values determine legal rights.
Which are both the exact opposite of saying that legal rights determine moral values. So you did understand what he was saying right before you claimed that he said the opposite. I don't see how flagrant deception makes your point about objective morality. Faithful in what is least, faithful in what is great. Let's repeat JS's original quote.
In a fair and rational society, moral values will be used to inform the assigning of legal rights.
This isn't about whether those morals are objective or subjective. You twisted this 180 degrees, saying in direct response:
So the United States, based on its values, assigned legal rights to different groups to citizens. By your standard, it was fair for the United States to first rule for racial discrimination and later against racial discrimination;
In other words, the legislation determined what was fair, which is the exact opposite of what he said. (You see, I can follow quite well.) Aren't you really scraping the barrel to take issue with that statement? I think that in a fair and rational society, moral values will be used to inform the assigning of legal rights. Everyone thinks that. I'm pretty sure that you think that. (I'd say that you disagreed, but that would be dishonest, which would go against the grain of my objective morals. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.)OldAndrew
January 8, 2018
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JS, good and evil existing "in the subjective morality realm" comes across as a synonym for, imagination, with shadings of delusion. KFkairosfocus
January 8, 2018
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PS: Just checked, dailymail.co.uk is 90. Contrast with BBC!kairosfocus
January 8, 2018
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SB
You have stated many times that objective morality doesn’t exist. Are you really so badly educated that you don’t know that “good” and “evil” exist in the objective moral realm. Is it really necessary for me to provide remedial education for you every time you write something?
And where have I said that good and evil don’t exist in the subjective morality realm? I realize that some say that right and wrong, good and evil, don’t exist. But when they say this they are referring to them not existing in the objective sense. There is no prohibition of them in the subjective sense.JSmith
January 8, 2018
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JDK, there was just a comment exchange on this. With credibly 250 mn + active web sites [the real number may be several times that], the top ranking 1% would stretch out to 2.5 million sites. As a comparison, Dionisio listed: Uncommondescent.com 80,763, Pandasthumb.org 106,377. Where also, Evolutionnews.org 58,755 with Samaritanspurse.org 40,274. I add: BBC.co.uk 180,874. Top ten, 1 google.com 2 youtube.com 3 facebook.com 4 yahoo.com 5 wikipedia.org 6 live.com 7 amazon.com 8 msn.com 9 bing.com 10 blogspot.com In the past day or so, I have been on seven of these sites, some several times. So, the rankings have some plausibility to me. KFkairosfocus
January 8, 2018
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SB
Let’s put it to the test:
By all means.
JS: In a fair and rational society, moral values will be used to inform the assigning of legal rights. SB: Your philosophy is that societies are responsible for deciding on who gets rights, who doesn’t, and what a legitimate right should be. This is what you called a fair society.
If you can’t see the difference between the two, you are denser than I thought. Which I didn’t think was possible, but you are always surprising me. My comment presupposes a fair society and claims that they, as a fair society, would base their policies on moral values. Your comment says that I claimed whatever a society decided, regardless of how they made the decision, would constitute a fair society. Are there any more of my claims that you would like to misrepresent?JSmith
January 8, 2018
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Old Andrew
He didn’t say that the assigning of legal rights should determine moral values. He said exactly the opposite in plain English.
To say that legal rights are based on moral values is the same as saying that moral values determine legal rights. Its the difference between active and passive voice, not the substance of what is being said. Now please use that information to reread what I said so that you can follow the argument.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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kf writes of UD,
would do well to realise that its site ranking would put it well within the top 1% of sites on the Internet.
Do you have a source for this claim?jdk
January 8, 2018
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OA {attn JS and SB): Kindly see 337 just above. KF PS: JS and even moreso CR, has been all over the map. There are many mixed narratives, forming a po-mo goulash.kairosfocus
January 8, 2018
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PS: Let me pause to list where I have taken this line of thought, for some years now:
We may elaborate on Paul, Locke, Hooker and Aristotle, laying out several manifestly evident and historically widely acknowledged core moral principles; for which the attempted denial is instantly and patently absurd for most people -- that is, they are arguably self-evident (thus, warranted and objective) moral truths; not just optional opinions. So also, it is not only possible to (a) be in demonstrable moral error, but also (b) there is hope that such moral errors can be corrected by appealing to manifestly sound core principles of the natural moral law. For instance: 1] The first self evident moral truth is that we are inescapably under the government of ought. (This is manifest in even an objector's implication in the questions, challenges and arguments that s/he would advance, that we are in the wrong and there is something to be avoided about that. That is, even the objector inadvertently implies that we OUGHT to do, think, aim for and say the right. Not even the hyperskeptical objector can escape this truth. Patent absurdity on attempted denial.) 2] Second self evident truth, we discern that some things are right and others are wrong by a compass-sense we term conscience which guides our thought. (Again, objectors depend on a sense of guilt/ urgency to be right not wrong on our part to give their points persuasive force. See what would be undermined should conscience be deadened or dismissed universally? Sawing off the branch on which we all must sit.) 3] Third, were this sense of conscience and linked sense that we can make responsibly free, rational decisions to be a delusion, we would at once descend into a status of grand delusion in which there is no good ground for confidence in our self-understanding. (That is, we look at an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds: once such a principle of grand global delusion is injected, there is no firewall so the perception of level one delusion is subject to the same issue, and this level two perception too, ad infinitum; landing in patent absurdity.) 4] Fourth, we are objectively under obligation of OUGHT. That is, despite any particular person’s (or group’s or august council’s or majority’s) wishes or claims to the contrary, such obligation credibly holds to moral certainty. That is, it would be irresponsible, foolish and unwise for us to act and try to live otherwise. 5] Fifth, this cumulative framework of moral government under OUGHT is the basis for the manifest core principles of the natural moral law under which we find ourselves obligated to the right the good, the true etc. Where also, patently, we struggle to live up to what we acknowledge or imply we ought to do. 6] Sixth, this means we live in a world in which being under core, generally understood principles of natural moral law is coherent and factually adequate, thus calling for a world-understanding in which OUGHT is properly grounded at root level. (Thus worldviews that can soundly meet this test are the only truly viable ones. If a worldview does not have in it a world-root level IS that can simultaneously ground OUGHT -- so that IS and OUGHT are inextricably fused at that level, it fails decisively.*) 7] Seventh, in light of the above, even the weakest and most voiceless of us thus has a natural right to life, liberty, the pursuit of fulfillment of one’s sense of what s/he ought to be (“happiness”). This includes the young child, the unborn and more. (We see here the concept that rights are binding moral expectations of others to provide respect in regards to us because of our inherent status as human beings, members of the community of valuable neighbours. Where also who is my neighbour was forever answered by the parable of the Good Samaritan. Likewise, there can be no right to demand of or compel my neighbour that s/he upholds me and enables me in the wrong — including under false colour of law through lawfare; usurping the sword of justice to impose a ruthless policy agenda in fundamental breach of that civil peace which must ever pivot on manifest justice. To justly claim a right, one must first be in the right.) 8] Eighth, like unto the seventh, such may only be circumscribed or limited for good cause. Such as, reciprocal obligation to cherish and not harm neighbour of equal, equally valuable nature in community and in the wider world of the common brotherhood of humanity. 9] Ninth, this is the context in which it becomes self evidently wrong, wicked and evil to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a young child or the like as concrete cases in point that show that might and/or manipulation do not make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ ‘worth,’ ‘justice,’ ‘fairness,’ ‘law’ etc. That is, anything that expresses or implies the nihilist’s credo is morally absurd. 10] Tenth, this entails that in civil society with government, justice is a principal task of legitimate government. In short, nihilistic will to power untempered by the primacy of justice is its own refutation in any type of state. Where, justice is the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities. (In Aristotle's terms as cited by Hooker: "because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like .") Thus also, 11] Eleventh, that government is and ought to be subject to audit, reformation and if necessary replacement should it fail sufficiently badly and incorrigibly. (NB: This is a requisite of accountability for justice, and the suggestion or implication of some views across time, that government can reasonably be unaccountable to the governed, is its own refutation, reflecting -- again -- nihilistic will to power; which is automatically absurd. This truth involves the issue that finite, fallible, morally struggling men acting as civil authorities in the face of changing times and situations as well as in the face of the tendency of power to corrupt, need to be open to remonstrance and reformation -- or if they become resistant to reasonable appeal, there must be effective means of replacement. Hence, the principle that the general election is an insitutionalised regular solemn assembly of the people for audit and reform or if needs be replacement of government gone bad. But this is by no means an endorsement of the notion that a manipulated mob bent on a march of folly has a right to do as it pleases.) 12] Twelfth, the attempt to deny or dismiss such a general framework of moral governance invariably lands in shipwreck of incoherence and absurdity. As, has been seen in outline. But that does not mean that the attempt is not going to be made, so there is a mutual obligation of frank and fair correction and restraint of evil. _________________ * F/N: After centuries of debates and assessment of alternatives per comparative difficulties, there is in fact just one serious candidate to be such a grounding IS: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable responsible service of doing the good in accord with our manifestly evident nature. (And instantly, such generic ethical theism answers also to the accusation oh this is “religion”; that term being used as a dirty word — no, this is philosophy. If you doubt this, simply put forth a different candidate that meets the required criteria and passes the comparative difficulties test: _________ . Likewise, an inherently good, maximally great being will not be arbitrary or deceitful etc, that is why such is fully worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our manifestly evident nature. As a serious candidate necessary being, such would be eternal and embedded in the frame for a world to exist at all. Thus such a candidate is either impossible as a square circle is impossible due to mutual ruin of core characteristics, or else it is actual. For simple instance no world is possible without two-ness in it, a necessary basis for distinct identity inter alia.
PPS: Someone above who took the predictable rhetorical tack of belittling this web site as being an inconsequential voice in an empty wilderness would do well to realise that its site ranking would put it well within the top 1% of sites on the Internet. One of the reasons it attracts persistent objectors. In other words, the behaviour of many objectors speaks more forcefully than their talking points.kairosfocus
January 8, 2018
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This is surreal. How is it possible to directly copy and paste a sentence with eighteen words without reading it? He didn't say that the assigning of legal rights should determine moral values. He said exactly the opposite in plain English. SB, you are the object lesson in this. You carry on about objective morals, but when you're in a petty forum discussion you'll say pretty much anything to score a point, and you don't care one bit whether it's true. The one faithful in least is faithful in much. If you'll toss aside your lofty standards just to get a zinger in then you're demonstrating exactly what I've been saying. You're being dishonest and you don't seem to care. How do you think that reflects on your hundreds of posts about your objective morality? And I do believe in objective morality, so I'm allowed to say that.OldAndrew
January 8, 2018
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SB: You are way behind the times. JS doesn’t believe that “good” and “evil” exist. JS
It is really sad that you feel that you have to lie in order to score debating points on an inconsequential blog.
You have stated many times that objective morality doesn't exist. Are you really so badly educated that you don't know that "good" and "evil" exist in the objective moral realm. Is it really necessary for me to provide remedial education for you every time you write something?StephenB
January 8, 2018
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ET
Yes- disease comes to mind. They carry something that they are immune to but you and yours are not.
Are you being serious? They just defeated their enemy in close combat using swords, spears and knives.
Question begging. How can anyone who thinks that life came from the interactions of matter and energy be rational and logical when said position is the opposite?
Or they can listen to someone who has claimed for over three years that wavelength = frequency. I will leave them to decide.JSmith
January 8, 2018
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F/N: A reminder:
Rom 13:8 [b]Owe nothing to anyone except to [c]love and seek the best for one another; for he who [unselfishly] loves his neighbor has fulfilled the [essence of the] law [relating to one’s fellowman]. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet,” and any other commandment are summed up in this statement: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor [it never hurts anyone]. Therefore [unselfish] love is the fulfillment of the Law. [AMP]
So, the core teaching is clear enough. The parable of the Good Samaritan -- extremely well known -- clinches it; the hereditary enemy and heretic was the true neighbour. Neighbours build peace, not murder, theft, deceit or lustful using of neighbour's body. Likewise, let us note the same Apostle in Athens:
Ac 17: 24 The God who created the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He [e]served by human hands, as though He needed anything, because it is He who gives to all [people] life and breath and all things. 26 And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands and territories. 27 This was so that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grasp for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28 For in Him we live and move and exist [that is, in Him we actually have our being], as even some of [f]your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ [AMP]
So, neighbourliness should extend across a global common brotherhood. It doesn't. IS is not OUGHT. One form of a famous gap. A clue, indeed a vital though somewhat obvious point. (BTW, for someone who just self-referentially went up on a pedestal, standing up for the significance of the OUGHT vs the IS is not instantly a self-indictment. Lev 19{13 - 18 very explicitly teaches that part of neighbourliness is reasoning frankly to move from a substandard is towards the ought. In other words, we are up against one of the key failings of subjectivism and relativism: locking out reform and reformers by targetting, isolating and scapegoating them. Note a current lawsuit at Google where this has been tolerated through internal social media and allegedly backed by HR with senior leadership falling into enabling behaviour. SB's point is serious and highly relevant.) Clearly, we are morally governed, even in argument and reasoning. Inescapably so. And the IS-OUGHT gap can become a chasm. One through which holocausts can be and are driven. Including, the in-progress one mounting up at a million more victims per week from our living posterity in the womb on a total from 40+ years of 800+ millions. When we understand how we are implicated and how corrupt and blood-guilt ridden our own institutions, professions, power elites and general populace have become, then we will be better able to answer to past cases. Until then, our rhetoric is suspect, for cause. And, the fashionable views we support will also very likely be utterly tainted. Back to the gap. How can it be bridged? (Surely, we can appreciate why it needs to be bridged, starting with in our own hearts.) First, we have to face it, recognising that our IS is nowhere near where we OUGHT to be, in thought, word, deed, culture, civilisation. Guilty, guilty, guilty. Precisely the indictment the White Rose martyrs made against Germany at large. But, we are blood-guilt riddled, warped and corrupt. How can we ever learn to think straight about what OUGHT to be? We desperately need knowable, warranted, credible MORAL truth. Something that accurately describes what OUGHT to be and with enough credibility that when it points to the gap between that OUGHT and our sorry IS, it breaks us to listen, heed, turn, seek renewal and reformation. Crooked yardsticks posing as standards of straightness, accuracy and uprightness cannot do this. We need plumb-line, self-evident, naturally and utterly credibly straight MORAL truths. Not, crooked yardstick values, feelings, impulses, intuitions, consensuses, theories or grand but utterly flawed narratives of progress etc. Genuinely, naturally straight and upright plumb-lines. One of these was already alluded to: we are inescapably under moral government in our conscious inner life, through the laws of duty to truth, sound reasoning, fairness etc that our consciences keep reminding us of. Indeed, much of the above, seeking to undermine confidence in the truth of that inner testimony, relies for persuasive effect on the force of that voice. OUGHT, is inescapable, though we may warp it out of its true course. Likewise, once we have something that pervasive, if it is written off as delusional, the rot spreads throughout our inner life of mindedness. In particular, reason is now twisted into clever deceit and manipulation, unfettered by duty to the right. So, we must see this absurdity and name it for what it is, a sign of gross error. A fresh start is: we are self-evidently under moral government, witnessed to by conscience. And thus, we face, whence that law, and why does it have force. A glance at the yardstick case I have repeatedly raised will show it does not come from the might, eloquence or voice of the individual or the community. The monster bound and gagged the innocent child to have his perverse way, but that only underscored how demonic what was being done was. He proceeded to sexually violate and murder then conceal and make a getaway. Thirty-odd years later, he is likely some seemingly respectable greying man who we would never dream is such a monster. None of this changes the fact of self-evident evil that points to the dignity and rights thus respect owed to even the weakest, least articulate among us. Indeed, we who have strength, voice and eloquence are duty-bound to stand up on their behalf. Something that has been notably missing for many days, in the part of too many. But that just pushes the matter back further. Where does this government come from, how can it be true, how can it be warranted as credibly true? Hume's guillotine points to one place: the world-root. Where, we need a world-root sufficient to ground not only the cosmos or biological life but a new phenomenon: the inescapably spiritual life of certain morally governed creatures. Us. Utter non-being cannot do. For, were there ever utter nothing, such has no causal powers and that would forever obtain. There would be no world. A world is, so something always was, the world-root. Nor can the chain of successive causation be extended back into a circle at some point. That would imply that the non existent creates itself. Fail again. Nor is infinite stepwise causal succession credible, not least as such cannot bridge endlessness. Never mind arguments that boil down to implying that the endless span has always already been bridged. We need a finitely remote world root of adequate capacity to bridge and fuse IS to OUGHT. I have often pointed to the only serious candidate after centuries of debates. A point underscored by how over many days, in many threads, no serious alternative is forthcoming: ___. So, we see: the inherently good creator God and world-root, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and of the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. A nature that has sometimes been described in terms of being in the image of God, ensouled with a value exceeding the resources of a planet. The God of ethical theism would be the unique world-root, reality and its aspects are not independent of him. Goodness is not an arbitrary decree, it reflects the purest character, the maximally great one, and it reflects him who is communicative reason himself, so it is materially intelligible. As necessary being he would be eternal, answering to "something always was." Indeed, on the logic of being, a serious candidate necessary being (as opposed to say a material composite such as the flying spaghetti monster failed parody) will be either impossible or actual in any possible world, part of its core framework. And more. The issue is, are we open to re-think? Do we have a genuinely viable alternative, or are we merely clinging to crooked yardsticks and mocking plumb-line cases for failing to conform to our fashionable yardsticks? KFkairosfocus
January 8, 2018
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SB: If you want to say that you don’t support all societal decisions, or that some of those decisions are wrong, you have to explain what objective standard you use to make that judgment.
Why? I only have to convince people that my rational, logical, evidence based examination is better than that used to develop the policy I disagree with. That is how the acceptance of homosexuality and same sex marriage defeated the religious arguments used against it.
You have already said that a fair society establishes rights based on its "values." Thus, every society that does so passes your test of fairness, regardless of who benefits or loses. So if you are going to declare that the final outcome isn't fair after all, you have to explain why you changed your mind about the fairness of the process.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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SB
You are way behind the times. JS doesn’t believe that “good” and “evil” exist.
It is really sad that you feel that you have to lie in order to score debating points on an inconsequential blog.JSmith
January 8, 2018
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JS@ 301: "That isn’t the point. Are there any circumstances under which it is morally acceptable to intentionally kill the wives and infants of a defeated enemy?" This is the crux of the issue on this whole thread. Do you have the capacity to make this judgement? I say there is no way that you do. I believe that God can rightly make this judgement. He is the creator and knows infinitely more than you and I. Us human creators know there are trade-offs when building any system. Think of trying to build the "perfect" laptop computer. You have to balance competing objectives/goals. These balances/trade-offs have got to be exponentially magnified building a community of humans. God has the ability to do this. To create the optimal system that balances freewill, restriction, evil, good, punishment and rewards. Sometimes the sovereignty of the individual is sacrificed for the communal good. We see this idea recorded many times in the Bible. I feel sorry for the the modern who looks at something in the Bible ordered by God that seems wrong from their view. And then somehow thinks they could do it better than our creator. This is pure arrogance and wishful thinking on our part. JS, you won't win in court against God. I needn't refer you to the lesson of Job to illustrate this. The bottom line is that its pure folly to think you will prevail. You just don't have the chops to do it no matter how enlightened you think you are. Quit kicking against the goads. Try to give God the benefit of the doubt. Humble yourself and ask God to teach you. He will if you believe that he exists and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. juwilkerjuwilker
January 8, 2018
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JSmith
Again. Putting words in my mouth. It is really difficult to have a discussion with someone who claims that you say what he wants you to say. Some would call that dishonest. Hell, everyone would call that dishonest.
Let's put it to the test: JS
In a fair and rational society, moral values will be used to inform the assigning of legal rights.
Those are your words, not mine. So the United States, based on its values, assigned legal rights to different groups to citizens. By your standard, it was fair for the United States to first rule for racial discrimination and later against racial discrimination; to rule first against gay marriage and then for gay marriage. All four decisions were based on moral "values." Thus, it is clear that, by your standard, you think that each of the four contradictory decisions was fair.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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T7
My issue, well one of them, with you is that when someone points out reality you imply they are ignorant or have some character flaw while hand-waving at the reality as though it doesn’t matter.
Sorry. I apologize for calling people I disagree with nihilists, Nazis, Orwellian, Simpering cowards, disgusting, evil, hypocrites, scoffing... Am I getting better at the sarcasm?
Remember, way back you were unable to say that child rape was an eternal evil. I have a problem with that.
Since I made it clear that I don’t think that moral values are either objective or eternal, how would you expect me to answer a dishonest loaded question like this? Be a hypocrite?
SB: Hitler was very sincere. T7: As were his followers. As was Stalin and Lenin. As was Mao etc. And for the record Hitler was an anti-Christian.
Actually, he was raised Catholic and turned against it after learning about Martin Luther. Still Christian. Although, I do agree, that he had largely dumped Christianity by the time he came to power. Yet retained some of its fringe anti-Semitic teachings.JSmith
January 8, 2018
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JS:
I only have to convince people that my rational, logical, evidence based examination is better than that used to develop the policy I disagree with.
Question begging. How can anyone who thinks that life came from the interactions of matter and energy be rational and logical when said position is the opposite?ET
January 8, 2018
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JS:
Are there any circumstances under which it is morally acceptable to intentionally kill the wives and infants of a defeated enemy?
Yes- disease comes to mind. They carry something that they are immune to but you and yours are not.ET
January 8, 2018
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You said “sincerity” matters most. Since Hitler was sincere, he passes your test for morality. Congratulations.
I'm sorry, it's hard to hear you associating me with Hitler way down here among the unwashed masses. Could you ask the angels to swing your chariot a little lower? But seriously, I think you're sincere too.OldAndrew
January 8, 2018
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SB
Did you even read Barry’s post?
You mean the one with the immature childish title of JSmith, Simpering Coward?JSmith
January 8, 2018
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