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JSmith, Simpering Coward

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In The New Atheists Are Simpering Cowards  I wrote:

For Nietzsche nature is cruel and indifferent to suffering, and that cruel indifference is a good thing. The strong rule the weak and that is as it should be. And why should the strong rule the weak? Because that is the natural order of things of course. In a world where God is dead, objective morality is merely an illusion slaves have foisted on masters as a sort of self-defense mechanism.

When Nietzsche urges us to go beyond good and evil, he is urging us to recognize the implications of God’s death for morality. God is the only possible source of transcendent objective moral norms. If God does not exist then neither do transcendent objective moral norms. And if transcendent objective moral norms do not exist, neither do “good” and “evil” in the traditional senses of those words. There is only a perpetual battle of all against all, and “good” is a synonym for prevailing in that battle, and “evil” is a synonym for losing. . . .

I feel like my ears are going to bleed at the bleating of the new atheists who write in these pages. They go on and on and on and on about how morality is rooted in empathy and the avoidance of suffering. Nietzsche would have spit his contempt on them, for they are espousing the “herd animal” Christian slave-morality he disdained and which, ironically, they claim to have risen above. How many times have the atheists insisted, “we are just as ‘good’ as you”? Why have they failed to learn from Nietzsche that “good” means nothing. Why do they insist that they conform to a standard that they also insist does not exist?

The answer to these questions is the same: They refuse to acknowledge the conclusions that are logically compelled by their premises. And why do they refuse? Because they are simpering cowards.

In the comments to KF’s recent post, the bleating from one “JSmith” is especially repulsive.  William J. Murray asked JSmith why his subjective preference for certain moral positions was different from his subjective preference for a particular flavor of ice cream.  JSmith refused to respond.  Instead, he argued that even asking the question was dishonest.  JSmith wrote:

[WJM]  was using a dishonest tactic which he always uses. Trying to equate the dislike you have for your child being killed with the dislike you have for chocolate ice cream.

Umm, JSmith, did you not notice that you just used the word “dislike” twice?  WJM argued that you base your morality on subjective preference (i.e., what you “like”). He argued further that people base their decision about which ice cream to eat based on subjective preference (i.e., which ice cream they “like”).  Everyone concedes that the felt intensity of your subjective preference that your child not be killed is much greater than the felt intensity of your subjective preference for, say, vanilla ice cream.

OK. You feel the subjective preferences differently. They are still both subjective preferences.

This is glaringly obvious and admitted — even celebrated — by brave atheists.  Nietzsche again:

The noble type of man regards HIMSELF as a determiner of values; he does not require to be approved of; he passes the judgment: “What is injurious to me is injurious in itself;” he knows that it is he himself only who confers honour on things; he is a CREATOR OF VALUES. He honours whatever he recognizes in himself: such morality equals self-glorification. . . . one may act towards beings of a lower rank, towards all that is foreign, just as seems good to one, or “as the heart desires,” and in any case “beyond good and evil”

Why does JSmith run from conclusions absolutely compelled by his own premises?  Because he is a simpering coward.  In his own mind he cannot possibly be a nihilist.  He lives his comfortable little bourgeois life, a life that has been built upon a foundation of a Christian cultural heritage centuries in the making.  And standing on that foundation he thinks of himself as a decent fellow.   And so he spews his oh-so-progressive views into our combox with never a thought to the end of the logical road to which his premises lead.

Mr. Smith, allow me to show you the end of that road:

 

Comments
SB You justify any policy that “society” deems appropriate. If one society wants to kill Jews, you support it. If another society wants to defend Jews, you support it as well. EXACTLYtribune7
January 8, 2018
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You obviously didn’t get the sarcasm. You are not very good at it: Now, if you or Barry or KF or WJM had started with this, I probably wouldn’t be arguing with you. I agree. For whatever reason, we all have the desire and need for love. FWIW, setting a reasonable condition always ruins sarcastic intent. You keep talking about eternal moral values as if they are facts. You keep failing to understand that just because you don't know something doesn't mean it isn't a fact. I am not the one claiming that God was morally right to order the killing of the wives and infants of a defeated people. You are the one who is claiming that we cannot morally judge those who kill women and children for their own subjective reasons. God is one day going to cause your death so it's safe to say that He has the "moral right" to cause death. The moral dilemma you are trying to create is can God order us to commit murder when He expressly commands us not to do it. You pull things out of Samuel or Judges or what have you and think "Gotcha". I can kill babies today. Judges, Samuel etc. was the norm in tribal relations back then. You cannot get that for some strange reason things were different B.C. than now. Why is that? God and morality and right and wrong have not changed. God's dealing with man has, however.tribune7
January 8, 2018
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JS
I don’t justify by saying that it was an objectively moral act; I act based on rational, logical, evidenced based examinations.
You justify any policy that "society" deems appropriate. If one society wants to kill Jews, you support it. If another society wants to defend Jews, you support it as well. When society supports institutional discrimination against blacks, you support it. When society rejects institutional discrimination and establishes civil rights you support it. If society reverts back, you will support it. There is nothing rational about your position. It is totally irrational.StephenB
January 8, 2018
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T7
So why did you say you would agree with us if we started off with it? Love most certainly is a moral value. It’s often used as a verb i.e. a call to action. There is notable command to do this.
You obviously didn't get the sarcasm. I though it was made obvious with my follow-on sentence; "I agree. For whatever reason, we all have the desire and need for love." A desire and a need are not moral values. We also have a desire and need for food and water. That doesn't make eating and drinking moral actions.
You are mixing up social standards with eternal moral values.
You keep talking about eternal moral values as if they are facts. At best, these are hypotheses, trying to reach the status of theories. A:
Armand, are you going to spend the rest of your life blaming other people for stuff you are responsible for? Man up, would ya?
I am not the one claiming that God was morally right to order the killing of the wives and infants of a defeated people. The only one responsible and accountable for my actions (both good and bad) is myself, as influenced by my subjectively derived moral values. The difference between myself and you/KF/Barry/WJM/etc. is that when I actt on something, I don't justify by saying that it was an objectively moral act; I act based on rational, logical, evidenced based examinations. And sometimes out of pure selfishness (after all, I am human).JSmith
January 8, 2018
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JS:
Love is hardly a moral value
On the contrary, it is the first virtue and the foremost, the pivot of the other virtues. this is why it anchors the Golden rule and in the Judaeo-Christian tradition, the decalogue. This is also historically pivotal. When Locke set out to ground what would become modern liberty and representational democracy, here is what he cited, with some onward reference:
[2nd Treatise on Civil Gov't, Ch 2 sec. 5:] . . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [This directly echoes St. Paul in Rom 2: "14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . " and 13: "9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law . . . " Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity ,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.] [Augmented citation, Locke, Second Treatise on Civil Government, Ch 2 Sect. 5. ]
See the point? See how much re-thinking you need to do? KF PS: How we happen to learn moral principles in a community is of no more consequence for their warrant than is how we learn the times tables. It is high time for you to move beyond the soft nihilism of hyperskepticism towards the Judaeo-Christian ethical tradition, multiplied by hyper-credulity towards the deliverances of current fashionable opinions, bound up in that self-referentially incoherent system of thought that we may term subjectivism and/or relativism driven by evolutionary materialistic scientism and its fellow travellers.kairosfocus
January 8, 2018
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Blame God.
Armand, are you going to spend the rest of your life blaming other people for stuff you are responsible for? Man up, would ya? Andrewasauber
January 8, 2018
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JS Love is hardly a moral value. So why did you say you would agree with us if we started off with it? Love most certainly is a moral value. It's often used as a verb i.e. a call to action. There is notable command to do this. Much of which we learn from watching our parents, family and friends. You are mixing up social standards with eternal moral values.tribune7
January 8, 2018
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T7
Why was it contingent on us to point out this truth? You have been presented with an eternal, objective value. You agree to it. Why are you still arguing?
Love is hardly a moral value. How you deal with it are the moral values. Things like respect, sacrifice, faithfulness, etc. Much of which we learn from watching our parents, family and friends.JSmith
January 8, 2018
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PPS: Recall, too that we face a current holocaust, the worst in history. With the sanction of progressives and of the establishment, including governments, media, education, law, parliaments, courts, police, medical practitioners, nurses and many others, we are currently globally slaughtering a million of our living posterity in the womb per week, per Guttmacher-UN statistics. Over the past 40+ years, this global number is in excess of 800+ million, likely approaching twice that high. Who are to be found on the side of the innocents being literally led to the slaughter, and whose only pleas we have from scans of their flight from ruthless death approaching? Who will be marching in Washington DC in a few weeks to protest the upcoming 45th anniversary of the US decision to legislate from the Court Bench that sanctioned the slaughter -- 60 million in the US and setting a policy climate that has led to supporting the global slaughter financially and otherwise? Who will be denigrating, dismissing, caricaturing and studiously ignoring this event? What does this say about the picture you and others have been so assiduously painting, especially when we find the sort of reaction to core Christian morality that we see in a current thread? Can we know how you have gone on record over this ongoing slaughter -- especially given the major, decades-long slander of casting this objection to mass slaughter of the innocents as oppression of women?kairosfocus
January 8, 2018
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JS, you seem hung up on the God is a moral monster meme of the Internet Atheists. I doubt you will be willing to ponder this 101 -- which has already been pointed to as a balance -- but I note it there for record. You need to reckon that your remarks are targetting also a likely unintended target, you are here not speaking of the Scriptures of the despised Christians, but the Hebraic ones. I suggest to you that you not try to arraign any Christian with anything you would not willingly point a finger at a Rabbi wearing a tattoo from a death camp over. KF PS: I note, the Canadian and Australian and Polish Air forces c 1943 - 44, found they had little alternative to mass bombing campaigns in the face of an existential danger. The key leaders understood that this was a nuclear threshold war that had a seriously ticking time-clock, but could not say that to their soldiers or the public. So, be very careful before condemning Churchill, Roosevelt, Trueman et al.kairosfocus
January 8, 2018
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JS Now you seek an eternal, objective value. It make it simple for you it is love. . . .Now, if you or Barry or KF or WJM had started with this, I probably wouldn’t be arguing with you. I agree. Why was it contingent on us to point out this truth? You have been presented with an eternal, objective value. You agree to it. Why are you still arguing?tribune7
January 7, 2018
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JS T7, you still haven’t said whether you believe that killing the wives and infant children of your defeated enemy is morally acceptable. You haven't answered "So you can just kill the infants even if the culture is against it?" Actually, you have. I just thought I'd point that out.tribune7
January 7, 2018
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T7, you still haven’t said whether you believe that killing the wives and infant children of your defeated enemy is morally acceptable. I understand why you don’t want to answer. If I were a theist who believed that God’s morals were objective and eternal, I wouldn’t want to answer either.JSmith
January 7, 2018
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So you can just kill the infants even if the culture is against it? Amazing. . . .Blame God. He gave me the free will that would allow me to do this. God will blame you. Your free will lets you choose the narrow path.tribune7
January 7, 2018
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T7
So you can just kill the infants even if the culture is against it? Amazing.
Blame God. He gave me the free will that would allow me to do this.JSmith
January 7, 2018
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No. That is the great thing about subjectively derived morals. I don’t have to agree with the majority. So you can just kill the infants even if the culture is against it? Amazing.tribune7
January 7, 2018
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T7
So, you are OK with killing infants if western society should become OK with killing infants — apart from abortion that is. That is very interesting.
No. That is the great thing about subjectively derived morals. I don’t have to agree with the majority. But given that God said that killing the wives and infants of your defeated enemies is morally acceptable, you have no choice but to agree. Or disobey God. That is even more interesting.
God is perfect. He is pure good. He is pure love. He created Man with free will and for a purpose to love Him and each other.
Why is it so important to him for us to love him if we love each other. If God were human, this obsession would rank him as a sociopath or, at the minimum, a serious narcissist.
At one point we became so vile He wiped out most of us.
Including infants who had never done anything vile in their short lives. That doesn’t sound like a being who is good, pure love.
Now you express outrage for the various references of mandated slaughter. Do you understand that was SOP in war at the time ?
And as a God of pure love he chastised these soldiers who killed the wives and infants of their defeated enemies, and then forgave them. What!!?? Or as the youth would say. WTF!!?? He actually commanded them to conduct these atrocities? The God of pure love!!??
You seem not to understand that it is Man who is to blame for the mess and not God.
Where have I heard this recently? Oh yah! ISIL.
Now you seek an eternal, objective value. It make it simple for you it is love.
Now, if you or Barry or KF or WJM had started with this, I probably wouldn’t be arguing with you. I agree. For whatever reason, we all have the desire and need for love. Much as we appear to be under the governance of our moral values. I would accept that these are objectively true. But this still leaves open the nature of the moral values that our moral governance works with.JSmith
January 7, 2018
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SB” A right, as I am sure you know, is a zero-sum (game) gain. JS
I don’t ascribe to that. That certainly applies in some cases, but not in all. Although, in my example you are correct. If the woman opts for an abortion then the fetus loses its right to live. But if the woman opts to keep the baby, she loses some of her rights
No. All rights can be accurately characterized as a zero-sum gain. If a woman uses her so-called right be keeping the baby, then she obviously didn’t lose the right to choose. The right to choose is negated only when that choice is not allowed.
And after the first trimester, the woman loses the right to have an abortion on demand.
In that case, she loses the right to kill and the baby gains a right to live. It’s always a zero sum gain - some person or group always wins, and some person or group always loses. That is why a government cannot just pass around rights like chocolate candy without considering the impact it will have on the common good, a concept that you don't believe in.StephenB
January 7, 2018
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No, killing the infants of your defeated enemy is not objectively eternally immoral. Since moral values are not objectively derived, it can’t be. But, at present time, and in our western society, it is considered immoral. So, you are OK with killing infants if western society should become OK with killing infants -- apart from abortion that is. That is very interesting. At one time, God considered the killing of the wives and infants of your defeated enemy to be morally acceptable. Since you believe that God’s objective moral Since you believe that God’s objective moral values are objective and eternal, you must also believe that killing the wives and infants of your defeated enemies is morally acceptable today. And again you look at this from a skewed and pre-determined perspective. To take you back to the Sunday School that perhaps you never attended: God is perfect. He is pure good. He is pure love. He created Man with free will and for a purpose to love Him and each other. He created us to create things for ourselves and to play. Man, however, used his free will to become corrupt. We became unspeakably vile. If you doubt this read history or even the news. At one point we became so vile He wiped out most of us. It didn't really improve things. He gave us commandments about not killing or stealing and being merciful and loving our neighbor -- this is Old Testament we are discussing -- but it still didn't take. He condemned the lovers of violence -- again Old Testament (Psalm 11). Still, a no go. Now you express outrage for the various references of mandated slaughter. Do you understand that was SOP in war at the time ? OK, sometimes they took slaves and they usually didn't kill the livestock, and, of course, neither did Saul which is what got him in trouble but what was commanded was what normally occurred in the course of events. God was dealing with Man on Man's terms here. The New Testament is God finally telling Man he must accept His terms. You seem not to understand that it is Man who is to blame for the mess and not God. Now you seek an eternal, objective value. It make it simple for you it is love. I think, however, people can become so odious that they actually lose the love of God as great as that love may be.tribune7
January 7, 2018
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JS
If the woman opts for an abortion then the fetus loses its right to live. But if the woman opts to keep the baby, she loses some of her rights. And after the first trimester, the woman loses the right to have an abortion on demand.
However, according to your philosophy, there would be no problem when women lose all those rights if society decides to stop granting them. So obviously, you have no concerns about a law being just or unjust. If a society decides to eliminate blacks, Jews, or any other social or ethnic group, you are fine with it.StephenB
January 7, 2018
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JS
In a fair and rational society, moral values will be used to inform the assigning of legal rights.
How can a society be fair if there is no objective standard of justice to determine what is fair?StephenB
January 7, 2018
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JS
Societies, through their governments, are responsible for assigning rights.
If there are no moral rights, then there is no moral reason why societies should have that power. Why is it not the case that dictators are responsible for assigning rights in spite of society's preferences? Why is there a responsibility for assigning rights at all?StephenB
January 7, 2018
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SB: A right is properly defined as the right to do something *and to prevent others from doing something else.*
Agreed.
So that means that a woman's right to an abortion involves the right to prevent the fetus from living, and a fetus's right to live involves the right to prevent a woman from aborting it.StephenB
January 7, 2018
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SB
A right is properly defined as the right to do something *and to prevent others from doing something else.*
Agreed.
A right, as I am sure you know, is a zero-sum (game) gain.
I don’t ascribe to that. That certainly applies in some cases, but not in all. Although, in my example you are correct. If the woman opts for an abortion then the fetus loses its right to live. But if the woman opts to keep the baby, she loses some of her rights. And after the first trimester, the woman loses the right to have an abortion on demand.
What is your definition of a legal right? What is your definition of a moral right?.
There are no moral rights, only moral values. Societies, through their governments, are responsible for assigning rights. In a fair and rational society, moral values will be used to inform the assigning of legal rights. However, a good government will also not not adopt some moral values into their system of legal rights. For example, except in a court and a few other situations, you have no legal right to be told the truth by others. However, most of us consider this to be a moral obligation. The balance between rights and values is a difficult one, but important.JSmith
January 7, 2018
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T7
But but but you claim there is no such thing as objective morality. Tell me specifically why you think killing infants is eternally objectively etc. immoral.
Nice deflection. But I will play along. No, killing the infants of your defeated enemy is not objectively eternally immoral. Since moral values are not objectively derived, it can’t be. But, at present time, and in our western society, it is considered immoral. So, maybe you will now answer my question. At one time, God considered the killing of the wives and infants of your defeated enemy to be morally acceptable. Since you believe that God’s objective moral values are objective and eternal, you must also believe that killing the wives and infants of your defeated enemies is morally acceptable today. So, the question is, do you believe that the killing described above is still morally acceptable, or do you believe that God changed his mind. Keep in mind the law of non-contradiction when you answer this.JSmith
January 7, 2018
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JS
My views are all very consistent and rationally derived.
I will define a right in my own words the way everyone else understands it. A legal right is the privileged option to do something and to prevent another person or group from doing something else. A moral right is the privileged option to do what you ought to do. What is your definition of a legal right? What is your definition of a moral right?.StephenB
January 7, 2018
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WJM, @265: I understand. If the subjectivst defines a right in the way you describe it, the contradictions become far less frequent, though they are not eliminated entirely. However, like you, I refuse to be deceived into accepting false definitions of words. A right is properly defined as the right to do something *and to prevent others from doing something else.* A right, as I am sure you know, is a zero-sum (game) gain. At a four-way stop sign, one person has the right of way and the other person does not. If person A has the right to not be offended, then person B loses the right to speak. If one citizen has the right to a university education, then another citizen loses the right to keep that portion of his tax money. So it is with the present subject. If a woman has the right to “choose,” then a baby loses the right to live. JS wants to have it both ways. I am not going to simply accede to an irrational definition for the purpose of evaluating an irrational world view.StephenB
January 7, 2018
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JS says:
A fetus that is going to be born has the right to enjoy optimal conditions in the womb during development.In some cases, this may mean suspending some rights that the woman had before she became pregnant. If the fetus is not going to be born, it’s rights are minimal. It has the right not to feel pain, not to suffer, etc. That is why I would remove the right of the woman to terminate the pregnancy after the first trimester. This is when the brain starts developing, when the fetus can start to perceive pain. Interestingly enough, this happens to be the cut off where most doctors will refuse to perform an abortion unless there is a health risk to the woman.
Surel, let's just dish out rights wherever and in whatever quantities that appeal to our personal preferences. Why not?
My views are all very consistent and rationally derived.
Derived from what origin? Why, from JS' personal preferences, of course. Where else? One wonders why JS feels obligated to even attempt to rationally justify his personal moral preferences.William J Murray
January 7, 2018
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JS But but but you claim there is no such thing as objective morality. Tell me specifically why you think killing infants is eternally objectively etc. immoral. You can do this right? You think it's eternally immoral right? Or don't you?tribune7
January 7, 2018
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T7
OK, what exactly is your problem with killing infants. Spell it out specifically as to why it is eternally immoral.
So, you are OK with killing infants. Good to knowJSmith
January 7, 2018
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