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JSmith, Simpering Coward

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In The New Atheists Are Simpering Cowards  I wrote:

For Nietzsche nature is cruel and indifferent to suffering, and that cruel indifference is a good thing. The strong rule the weak and that is as it should be. And why should the strong rule the weak? Because that is the natural order of things of course. In a world where God is dead, objective morality is merely an illusion slaves have foisted on masters as a sort of self-defense mechanism.

When Nietzsche urges us to go beyond good and evil, he is urging us to recognize the implications of God’s death for morality. God is the only possible source of transcendent objective moral norms. If God does not exist then neither do transcendent objective moral norms. And if transcendent objective moral norms do not exist, neither do “good” and “evil” in the traditional senses of those words. There is only a perpetual battle of all against all, and “good” is a synonym for prevailing in that battle, and “evil” is a synonym for losing. . . .

I feel like my ears are going to bleed at the bleating of the new atheists who write in these pages. They go on and on and on and on about how morality is rooted in empathy and the avoidance of suffering. Nietzsche would have spit his contempt on them, for they are espousing the “herd animal” Christian slave-morality he disdained and which, ironically, they claim to have risen above. How many times have the atheists insisted, “we are just as ‘good’ as you”? Why have they failed to learn from Nietzsche that “good” means nothing. Why do they insist that they conform to a standard that they also insist does not exist?

The answer to these questions is the same: They refuse to acknowledge the conclusions that are logically compelled by their premises. And why do they refuse? Because they are simpering cowards.

In the comments to KF’s recent post, the bleating from one “JSmith” is especially repulsive.  William J. Murray asked JSmith why his subjective preference for certain moral positions was different from his subjective preference for a particular flavor of ice cream.  JSmith refused to respond.  Instead, he argued that even asking the question was dishonest.  JSmith wrote:

[WJM]  was using a dishonest tactic which he always uses. Trying to equate the dislike you have for your child being killed with the dislike you have for chocolate ice cream.

Umm, JSmith, did you not notice that you just used the word “dislike” twice?  WJM argued that you base your morality on subjective preference (i.e., what you “like”). He argued further that people base their decision about which ice cream to eat based on subjective preference (i.e., which ice cream they “like”).  Everyone concedes that the felt intensity of your subjective preference that your child not be killed is much greater than the felt intensity of your subjective preference for, say, vanilla ice cream.

OK. You feel the subjective preferences differently. They are still both subjective preferences.

This is glaringly obvious and admitted — even celebrated — by brave atheists.  Nietzsche again:

The noble type of man regards HIMSELF as a determiner of values; he does not require to be approved of; he passes the judgment: “What is injurious to me is injurious in itself;” he knows that it is he himself only who confers honour on things; he is a CREATOR OF VALUES. He honours whatever he recognizes in himself: such morality equals self-glorification. . . . one may act towards beings of a lower rank, towards all that is foreign, just as seems good to one, or “as the heart desires,” and in any case “beyond good and evil”

Why does JSmith run from conclusions absolutely compelled by his own premises?  Because he is a simpering coward.  In his own mind he cannot possibly be a nihilist.  He lives his comfortable little bourgeois life, a life that has been built upon a foundation of a Christian cultural heritage centuries in the making.  And standing on that foundation he thinks of himself as a decent fellow.   And so he spews his oh-so-progressive views into our combox with never a thought to the end of the logical road to which his premises lead.

Mr. Smith, allow me to show you the end of that road:

 

Comments
JS --After all, what is the moral lesson involved in God being fine with killing infants?-- Like the Canadian Air Force? You really are obtuse. OK, what exactly is your problem with killing infants. Spell it out specifically as to why it is eternally immoral.tribune7
January 7, 2018
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SB at 264, I am also against smoking because of the impact that it has on our health system, yet I would not ban smoking. I am also against abortion but I would not be in favour of making early term abortions illegal. We have been all over this before. A fetus that is going to be born has the right to enjoy optimal conditions in the womb during development. In some cases, this may mean suspending some rights that the woman had before she became pregnant. If the fetus is not going to be born, it’s rights are minimal. It has the right not to feel pain, not to suffer, etc. That is why I would remove the right of the woman to terminate the pregnancy after the first trimester. This is when the brain starts developing, when the fetus can start to perceive pain. Interestingly enough, this happens to be the cut off where most doctors will refuse to perform an abortion unless there is a health risk to the woman. My views are all very consistent and rationally derived. You obviously disagree, and I am fine with that. If your view becomes the majority view, abortions will once again be made illegal. However, if this happens, don’t be surprised if it doesn’t have the consequences that you hope it will. All you will have done is wash your hands of a practice that has existed from the beginning of recorded history. It may make you sleep better at night knowing that women who still seek to obtain an abortion will be placing themselves at much greater risk. Thankfully, I don’t think that way.JSmith
January 7, 2018
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stephenb, I think the inconsistency you're seeing stems from your view of rights as one kind of thing while JS considers rights an entirely different kind of thing. From your perspective his statements seem contradictory; from his they are perfectly consistent. I know his reasoning because I was a subjectivist for a long time. If morality is thought of as power, then "rights" exist in proportion to the ability and willingness of any individual to apply that power. Thus, the fetus has however much power it has to continue to exist; the mother has however much power she has to abort the fetus. That the mother can overpower the fetus doesn't mean the fetus never had any power at all. In JS's view, he could exert his power over the woman in a more overt manner to prevent the abortion, but in the larger power picture that would likely curtail future efforts (prison), so he keeps the expression of his moral power within certain limits. However, JS just made a comment that renders his position completely irrational:
It is my opinion that after the first trimester, the fetus’ right to exist supercedes the woman’s right not to proceed with the pregnancy, except in circumstances where the life of the woman is at serious risk. There is nothing contradictory about any of this. As I mentioned, rights are not absolute.
All we are left with here is that the fetus, the mother and JS himself have whatever rights conform to his preference, whether or not it is rationally consistent.William J Murray
January 7, 2018
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WJM
In JS’ world, “rights” are either seized by the individual or granted to them by more powerful individuals Thus, the fetus has as much “right” as it can physically muster to force its own survival, either competing against or working with the mother (and others). In JS’s world, “rights” simply means “power”. We all have whatever rights, and in whatever quantity, as we can grab in the context of others around us grabbing whatever power they can. IOW, might makes right. It is also the father’s right, in JS’s world, to beat the mother until she loses the baby, exerting his JS world “rights”.
I am still not getting any sense of consistency here. Yes, JS does advocate the might makes right scenario on some days of the week. Hence, the mother's right to kill her fetus is based on her desire to kill it or not kill it. I get that. On the other hand, if the fetus's right to live depends on the mother's *desires*, then the fetus has no rights at all, even the right to grab power and fight its way past the abortionist's knife. In other words, the mother's desire to kill the fetus, which is basic, overrides the fetus's right to grab power for itself. It gets even messier than that. JS also claims that he is *against* abortion on the grounds that the fetus has rights. It makes no sense to say that he is against abortion if he is *for* a woman's right to have one any time she chooses. Further, he says that late term fetus has a greater right to life than an early term fetus. I think you are attributing consistency, albeit a perverse consistency, to JS's eminently inconsistent position.StephenB
January 7, 2018
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T7
The Canadian Air Force thought so back in 1944.
As did the German, British and American Air Forces. I’m glad that our morality has evolved above that of God’s since then in that we no longer think that it is morally acceptable to kill our enemy’s wives and infant children after we defeat them. Frankly, that passage in the bible reads like the lies a commanding general would tell to justify his atrocities. After all, what is the moral lesson involved in God being fine with killing infants?JSmith
January 7, 2018
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SB at 258, you must have missed my comment where I said that it is society that affords rights to its members. At present, society has decided that the fetus has no rights. My opinion is that the fetus should have some rights, but that in the earliest stages it’s rights are minimal. In my opinion, the fetus’ right to exist is lower than the woman’s right not to proceed with the pregnancy. In my opinion, if the woman decides to proceed with the pregnancy, the fetus, regardless of stage, has the right to develop in an environment optimal to its health (ie., the woman can’t smoke or drink). It is my opinion that after the first trimester, the fetus’ right to exist supercedes the woman’s right not to proceed with the pregnancy, except in circumstances where the life of the woman is at serious risk. There is nothing contradictory about any of this. As I mentioned, rights are not absolute. Of course, whether or not my opinions are adopted as to what the rights should be would depend on society.JSmith
January 7, 2018
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KF, I guess it just sounds strange to my ear to say that error would exist, even in a world populated only by an infallible God. Of course the propositions 1 + 2 = 3 and 1 + 2 ≠ 3 would both exist in such a world, and exactly one of them is false, but no one would have ever erred by asserting the false variant. This is tangential, however, as I think I agree with your larger point.daveS
January 7, 2018
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StephenB, In JS' world, "rights" are either seized by the individual or granted to them by more powerful individuals Thus, the fetus has as much "right" as it can physically muster to force its own survival, either competing against or working with the mother (and others). In JS's world, "rights" simply means "power". We all have whatever rights, and in whatever quantity, as we can grab in the context of others around us grabbing whatever power they can. IOW, might makes right. It is also the father's right, in JS's world, to beat the mother until she loses the baby, exerting his JS world "rights".William J Murray
January 7, 2018
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DS, I suggest that you are making a distinction without a material difference. Once E then immediately also ~E. That is, utterance by any particular individual is a secondary matter to the point. This is the same, for the framework of the naturals on distinct identity. As a theist, I would immediately see that the propositions in question, numbers etc are eternally contemplated by the ultimate mind. That that mind is, is in the context of a required necessary being world root sufficient to account for a world in which there are morally governed rational and responsible creatures. Where the IS-OUGHT gap can only be bridged at world-root level. And more. I am beginning to ponder the point of Solomon that in effect endless debate dragging out and dragging on and on is there and becomes futile beyond a certain point. KF PS: This seemed to post itself, I know not why, while incomplete.kairosfocus
January 7, 2018
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JSmith @255: All four of your paragraphs are totally irrelevant. Please address the irrational nature of your formulation. You have made two statements that cannot be reconciled: [a] A fetus has a right to life. [b] A fetus's right to life depends on the mother's desire to have the baby. Thus, you have contradiction yourself by saying that a fetus DOES s a right to live and also that it DOES NOT have the right to live. Please refrain from plodding through a long-winding evasion. Just address the issue.StephenB
January 6, 2018
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JS I am just applying the definition of Faith . . .Hebrews 11:1: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Hebrews 11 is not about "knowing" God or knowledge of God. It is about having assurance that God will not abandon you in difficult times, and right will prevail. Romans 1 is about knowing God: since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Exodus 6 (and 16 and 29) is about knowing God: I will free you from being slaves to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with mighty acts of judgment. 7 I will take you as my own people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God, who brought you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. Psalms are about knowing God: “Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.” (46:10) or The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” (14:1) You get the idea. Scripture is pretty clear about God being able to be known. You conveniently left out the If Y in your response at 253. You conveniently misread if Y, morality set by God is eternal and objective. Actually, you are even twisting the definition of "objective:" Not dependent on the mind for existence; actual“ The reference is to your mind i.e. opinions. By definition, God's mind creates existence (actuality) ex nihilo. But if you are saying that God does not change his mind with respect to morality then it must still be morally acceptable to kill the women and infants of an enemy. The Canadian Air Force thought so back in 1944.tribune7
January 6, 2018
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I would just like to thank the academy, my parents and, most importantly, my loyal fans, for making JSmith, Simpering Coward the second most popular thread at UD over the last 30 days. I couldn’t have done it without your support.JSmith
January 6, 2018
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SB
If the woman’s right supercedes the fetus’s life *on the basis of her desires,* (your formulation) then it is obvious that the woman has all the rights and fetus has no rights at all. Excuse me, but do you even know what a right is?
Rights are not absolute. You have rights as an adult that you didn’t have as a 17 year old. And you had rights as a 17 year old that you didn’t have as a 15 year old. These rights increase with your developing ability to reason as well as physical considerations. The same applies as you get older. Your right to freedom may be suspended due to dementia (hopefully not). If you read my earlier comments you will have noted that I would propose that a fetus’ rights increase with the stage of pregnancy. A first trimester fetus would have rights but they would be minimal. For example, if a woman plans to have the baby, either to keep or to put up for adoption, the fetus’ right to a risk free development would be high. The woman should have to give up her right to smoke or drink. If she refuses to do so, she should be forced to do so. I would also propose that the fetus’ right to life becomes almost at the same level as yours or mine following the first trimester. Only superseded by the woman’s when her health is at serious risk. You might be interested to know that in Canada, abortions on demand are perfectly legal from conception to the birth. In spite of this, only a very small percentage are performed after the first trimester, and most of these due to health complications.JSmith
January 6, 2018
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T7
What you don’t understand is that a lot of people do know God exists. Don’t apply your state of ignorance to others.
It is not a state of ignorance. I am just applying the definition of Faith. Hebrews 11:1: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” oxford dict.: “Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.” Of course nobody “knows” that God exists. They may believe in him with a high degree of certainty but they will never “know” for certain until they die.
Did God set morals for us . . . Maybe. But he also may have given us free will to allow us to derive the morality that works best for us. But you’re not even certain that God exists.
This is priceless. When people quotemine it is usually taking someone else’s words out of context to give them a different meaning. This is the first time I have ever seen someone quotemine themselves. Your original question started with “If Y [God existing] Did God...”. You conveniently left out the If Y in your response at 253.
Why objective? Because it would have been set by an authority. That would make them objective.
But, sadly, that is not how “objective is defined; Oxfortd dict.: ”1. not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. 2. Not dependent on the mind for existence; actual“ If morals are dependent on God’s mind then, by definition, they are not objective.
Obviously he thought that action A was a moral truth one day and not a moral truth the next. Not really, if you read it right. The Old Testament is about a loving merciful God dealing with fallen, selfish, violent, superstitious humanity. The New Testament is about a merciful God telling us he loves us so much he would suffer and die for us but this is our last chance.
This may be as you and most Christians see this. But if you are saying that God does not change his mind with respect to morality then it must still be morally acceptable to kill the women and infants of an enemy. 1 Samuel 15:3 ”Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” There are numerous passages like this throughout the bible. Which is only a problem if you assume it to be the inerrant word of God. I don’t.JSmith
January 6, 2018
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Does God exist? I don’t know. And neither does anyone else. What you don't understand is that a lot of people do know God exists. Don't apply your state of ignorance to others. Did God set morals for us . . . Maybe. But he also may have given us free will to allow us to derive the morality that works best for us. But you're not even certain that God exists. morality set by God is eternal and objective. Why objective? Because it would have been set by an authority. That would make them objective. The morals set by him could simply be his subjective opinion. You are saying that we have a Creator who made us for a purpose but that purpose is just his opinion. From the beginning of the OT to the end of the NT he appears to have changed his mind several times. Actually, he hasn't. He changed his way with dealing with us namely by giving us a last chance. Obviously he thought that action A was a moral truth one day and not a moral truth the next. Not really, if you read it right. The Old Testament is about a loving merciful God dealing with fallen, selfish, violent, superstitious humanity. The New Testament is about a merciful God telling us he loves us so much he would suffer and die for us but this is our last chance.tribune7
January 6, 2018
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KF,
DS, the set that collects errors is necessarily non-empty. Also, were there not an actual world in the sense of domain of reality, there would have been utter non-being. That having no causal power, such would forever obtain. All of this is tied together. KF
Do you mean the set of errors that actually have been committed, or "potential errors", in the sense of false statements that could have been made by someone? I assume the latter, because if God had never created any fallible beings, no errors would have been committed.daveS
January 6, 2018
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JS, again, you are failing to look i/l/o this world existing, with us as morally governed creatures. Once that fact is on the ground, it properly constrains onward speculations. Specifically, the necessary being world-root [of whatever character] must be able to account for us, and our rationality must not collapse into grand delusion. Where, moral government would not be the arbitrary decree of God. KFkairosfocus
January 6, 2018
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DS, the set that collects errors is necessarily non-empty. Also, were there not an actual world in the sense of domain of reality, there would have been utter non-being. That having no causal power, such would forever obtain. All of this is tied together. KFkairosfocus
January 6, 2018
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JSmith
No. The rights of the fetus are strengthened by the will of the woman, not created by her. I admit that my choice of words above was not the best. But the woman’s right supercedes that of the fetus, at least in the early stages.
If the woman's right supercedes the fetus's life *on the basis of her desires,* (your formulation) then it is obvious that the woman has all the rights and fetus has no rights at all. Excuse me, but do you even know what a right is? If the woman says, "I desire that my fetus lives," then the fetus's rights are not needed and, therefore, irrelvant. If the woman says, "I desire that my fetus dies," then the fetus's rights are overriden, and therefore, useless, I am amazed that you cannot grasp this point.
If I had a friend who was seeking an abortion I would try to convince her to keep it by explaining the options available to her. Even to the point of helping her out financially if necessary.
Good. That is commendable. Still, your formulation above is completely irrational.StephenB
January 6, 2018
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JSmith said:
I don’t know. And neither does anyone else.
Can you support your assertion that nobody else knows whether or not God exists? JS argues that that the fact that interpretations of morality change over time and across societies is evidence that morality itself is subjective in nature. This would be like saying that because scientific models change (sometimes drastically) over time, what those models refer to must be subjective in nature. Your logic isn't good here, JS. Subjective perception and interpretion doesn't indicate that the thing in question is itself subjective in nature.William J Murray
January 6, 2018
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T7
You are really not looking at this right.
That is definitely a possibility. As a human, my judgement is as prone to error as anyone’s.
Does God exist? Y N
I don’t know. And neither does anyone else.
If Y, Did God set morals for us Y N
Maybe. But he also may have given us free will to allow us to derive the morality that works best for us.
If Y, morality set by God is eternal and objective.
Why objective? The morals set by him could simply be his subjective opinion. What makes his word objective? From the beginning of the OT to the end of the NT he appears to have changed his mind several times. Obviously he thought that action A was a moral truth one day and not a moral truth the next. Which, I guess answered your second claim about them being eternal.
Now if you put an N there, well, I guess that’s where you are coming from but you have no authority to which to appeal regarding aspects of culture and law with which you disagree.
Except the authority of rational, logical, evidence based examination. Society is full of examples of this authority being quite effective. Just look at the relatively recent shift in societal acceptance of homosexuality. That didn’t occur overnight. It took much debate and arguments on both sides. Sadly, for those opposed to the acceptance of homosexuality, their arguments were woefully lacking. Just as they were with regard to same sex marriage. In both cases, those opposed could not mount a rational, logical, evidence based argument.JSmith
January 6, 2018
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KF, A tangent: By "error exists", do you just mean that false statements exist? And not that "anyone" (any sentient being) has necessarily ever committed an error? For example, if God had never created the universe, presumably no one would ever have erred.daveS
January 6, 2018
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JS, recall, one of the first examples of self-evident truths is this: error exists. Do you have any good reason why such should not be the case regarding moral truths, given that such often cut across entrenched interests? The fact of moral (or in many cases underlying factual) disagreement or opinions or even legal frameworks no more means that objectively true or even self-evidently true moral principles cannot exist than the fact that counterfeit money exists means there cannot be true money. Indeed, when wrongs rule under false colour of law backed by power, it is the ability to point to violated but patently sound principle which is the basis for reform. And, that is massively documented in sound history books, too. KFkairosfocus
January 6, 2018
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JS You are really not looking at this right. Does God exist? Y N If Y, Did God set morals for us Y N If Y, morality set by God is eternal and objective. Now if you put an N there, well, I guess that's where you are coming from but you have no authority to which to appeal regarding aspects of culture and law with which you disagree.tribune7
January 6, 2018
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T7
Your problem is I don’t think you have. My problem is that I don’t have a clue as to what point you are trying to make. Are you saying that things have been done that I call immoral so that proves objective morality doesn’t exist?
It doesn’t prove anything. But arguing that there are objective moral truths and explaining the thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of historic commonly held historic “truths” that we disagree with today as just misinterpretations of the moral truths, or manipulations of them, is just tap dancing to avoid the more logical conclusion. The arguments that are being made by KF and others in support of objective moral truths do not include compelling evidence to support it. Rather, they tend to concentrate on the consequences that we would see if objective morality doesn’t exist. The fact that we have seen these very same consequences throughout history, often repeatedly, is compelling evidence against objective moral truths. As is often said around here: Nice own goal.JSmith
January 6, 2018
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But, at the end of the day, the choice is hers.
I agree that the choice is hers. We just disagree on the timing of it. I say that women are smart enough to choose before they get pregnant. You don't seem to think very highly of that ability.ET
January 6, 2018
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JS Read a history book Your problem is I don't think you have. My problem is that I don't have a clue as to what point you are trying to make. Are you saying that things have been done that I call immoral so that proves objective morality doesn't exist? Reason is not a means but an end. Starting from the wrong premise, logic can lead to horrific acts (self mutilation, drug addiction, child sacrifice). Even starting from the right premise your own weakness and nature can guide you to horrific acts (Cain and Able, David and Bathsheba, Peter and the crowing cock). The Bible does not duck from this. Human nature is a rather big part of it. Of course, if you reject the Bible -- or the recognition of the reality of objective morality and purpose -- you are going to go down some pretty weird and unfortunate roads.tribune7
January 6, 2018
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SB, I weigh in with a couple of graduate degrees, for whatever it is worth. I also spent my early uni years cutting intellectual eyeteeth on Marxism, which dominated my uni's environment (and wreaked havoc in my homeland at about the same time). For much of that time I lived on the Campus, sometimes hardly leaving it for weeks at a time. Unis can become ideological captive to the fashions of the day, and major media houses are too often not one whit better. The tactics I keep on seeing today running riot across our civilisation bear more than a slight, passing resemblance to the agit-prop I had to deal with in my youth. KFkairosfocus
January 6, 2018
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SB
If the fetus’ right to life is based on the mothers desire to have the baby, then it obviously has no rights of its own and all rights belong to the mother.
No. The rights of the fetus are strengthened by the will of the woman, not created by her. I admit that my choice of words above was not the best. But the woman’s right supercedes that of the fetus, at least in the early stages. If I had a friend who was seeking an abortion I would try to convince her to keep it by explaining the options available to her. Even to the point of helping her out financially if necessary. But, at the end of the day, the choice is hers. And I would think no less of her if she opted for the abortion.JSmith
January 6, 2018
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JSmith
I have a couple post secondary degrees but we all know that education does not always equate to intelligence. I will be more than happy to change my views when someone can provide some compelling evidence. So far, all I have heard with respect to objective morality boils down to the fear that subjective morality would mean that we would be prone to periods of societally sanctioned “badness”. I only have two responses to that. Read a history book and watch the news. Everything around us and everything we have seen throughout history conforms to the idea that our moral values are subjectively derived. Claiming that they are objective just provides false justification for the “badness” that happens.
I, too, have my graduate credentials, so I can speak with authority when I say that the academy promotes irrationality. The fact is that subjective morality always leads to intellectual contradictions, so it cannot be true. Example: JSmith
I am against abortion because I believe the fetus has a right to life. But I don’t believe it is at the same level as the right to life that you and I enjoy.
So, you do claim that abortion is wrong precisely because the early term fetus *has a right to life,* maybe not as much as you or I, in your judgment, but it has rights of its own nevertheless. But then you contradict that statement by saying that
...the fetus’ right to life in the early stages is *based on the women’s desire to have the baby.*.
If the fetus’ right to life is based on the mothers desire to have the baby, then it obviously has no rights of its own and all rights belong to the mother. Do you understand the contradiction? You are saying [a] A fetus has a right to life and [b] a fetus does not have a right to life.StephenB
January 6, 2018
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