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Keith’s “Bomb” Defused & Debunked

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Even though keiths “bomb” has been defused and debunked in several ways, it has occurred to me that there is another major flaw in keiths argument. However, to reiterate the main debunking point: Barry Arrington asked for a “science bomb” that would demonstrate him wrong about what ID argues; keith’s “bomb” assumes the very thing that ID challenges – that natural forces are capable of producing the CSI found in living organisms. This makes keiths argument logical in nature (given he assumes everything that requires actual science), not scientific, and renders it irrelevant to the challenge – irrelevant even if it was logically valid, which it is not, as I will now show.

First, let’s assume that genetically, living organisms do fall into a nested hierarchy.

Keiths claims that a nested hierarchy leading back to a UCA is what we’d expect to find if natural forces were responsible for life and evolution – yet, he doesn’t explain this expectation – why natural forces could not be expected to produce something other than what we would find to be a nested hierarchy.

If the manufacture of living organisms occurred once in the very early history of earth, why not more than once? Why couldn’t there be multiple ancestral lines leading back to many origin of life points and multiple, entirely separate lines of descent? Why shouldn’t we find multiple, distinctly separate nested hierarchies? Why shouldn’t we find outlier species that, by chance circumstances, bore no distinguishable relationship whatsoever to the known hierarchy?

Given non-teleological natural forces that do not have a specific goal in mind, why should there be only one branching line of descent for living organisms that falls into a neat, nested hierarchy (here assumed arguendo)? Over billions of years, is it not possible for living organisms to diverge so completely so as to lose all genetic material that would connect to any other historical lineage, even if life, for some strange reason (given materialist thinking), only originated once?

Given natural forces as the originator of life, why wouldn’t we expect there to be several different forms of life on earth that are not even remotely related? Even if related, why should we expect natural forces to leave evidence of the relationship? Couldn’t natural forces -given enough time and chance – find ways to eliminate evidence of these relationships? Given billions of years, isn’t it rather odd to think that natural forces couldn’t generate any other form of life, or sever the relationship evidence between a few organisms even once?

Given billions of years and all that available chance, our arguendo single, nested heirarchy of life leading back to a single UCA seems to me extremely unlikely – it smacks more of a design choice that frontloaded a specific search plan, prohibited clutter, excised outliers and optimized the chances for arriving at the goal.

Ultimately, keiths asks the question of IDists (to paraphrase) – “why did the designer pick just one form of life and utilize just one lineage, when it could have utilized any number of alternate, non-nested systems?” – yet, keiths fails to ask the same question of the natural forces argument – why just one form of life, why one lineage, why one neat, nested hierarchy?

Keiths attempted logical argument claims to make the same assumptions about both natural and artificial causal agencies – that natural forces and design are both capable of originating life and generating the evolutionary processes and patterns we find. However, this is obviously not the only assumption keiths makes when it comes to the “natural forces” side of the argument; he assumes that natural forces could not have generated anything other than a nested hierarchy leading back to a UCA when it comes to biological life forms.

He simply asserts that this is what we should expect from natural forces and makes no case for it. If we provide the same assumptions on the ID side of the argument, then we must assume any designer could not have generated anything other than a nested hierarchy leading back to a UCA when it comes to biological life forms – which means that given the same assumptions on both sides of the ledger, keiths argument fails to produce a distinction between what we should expect to find if natural forces or if design agency generated life and evolution here on earth.

Comments
Thorton: Limited genetic variations in small population subsets through sexual selection over relatively few generations only has no bearing on the amount of genetic variations in large populations over thousands of generations due to the new genetic variability added by imperfect replication. This is your view of things, and nothing more. Here's a review of Lonnig's recent book on dog geneology. A couple of quotes: As to phylogeny:
Lönnig continues with an in-depth discussion of the taxonomy of the Canidae (the family that includes the dogs), extant as well as extinct subfamilies. He focuses on the phylogeny of these creatures, considering especially the paleontological record, including the subfamilies Hesperocyoninae, Borophaginae, and Caninae. All three appear abruptly in the fossil record and almost simultaneously at that.
This completely dismantles your ramblings above. And how will you react: with disgusting mockery and complete denial of the facts. How sad. About "viability" as a "barrier":
Biologist Dr. Werner Gieffers, retired from the Max Planck Institute of Breeding Research, comments: "On the basis of research of many experts in the relevant fields, Lönnig proves that the enormous variability of our domestic dogs essentially originated by reductions and losses of functions of genes of the wolf."
This process of 'reduction' in function can only go on so long. It ends with loss of viability---the offspring all die. Again, confirmation of what I've stated. What do you have? Nothing but your opinions. And a heart that is ready for Hades.PaV
October 31, 2014
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LoL! @ william419- just look at what I was responding to. Only a coward posts one side of the equation and here you are. Thank youJoe
October 31, 2014
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Vishnu, I have also worked with GAs. We tried a few to program FPLAs. That was back in the 90s. Goal-oriented searches are the antithesis of natural selection. But just because they are called "evolutionary" or "genetic" algorithms evos think the simulate unguided evolution. That and someone actually wrote that they simulate natural selection. Whoever wrote that was obviously not schooled in evolution.Joe
October 31, 2014
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Here is a summary of Joey G.'s comments on this thread. http://uncommondescentmyass.blogspot.ca/2014/10/joey-allegedly-banned-for-posting-porn.html?m=1 I think a KF style correction is called for.william spearshake
October 31, 2014
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Joe, no problem. BTW, I am an engineer, and have used GAs many times in my career. They are useful because computers do one thing better than humans do: they compute algorithms rapidly (designed by humans, of course, to do so.) GAs never invent their own core algorithms. Algorithms may be modified by themselves or other algorithms, but they don't invent themselves. The initial conditions are setup by intelligent humans, the fitness functions are programmed by intelligent humans. Toward any particular goal (which is the purpose of GAs), to the degree where algorithms are less specified by the programmer than they could be, selection must be done manually by an intelligent human. GAs are examples intelligent design evolution not blind watchmaker evolution. Blind watchmaker evolution has no goals and no foresight.Vishnu
October 31, 2014
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Thank you Vishnu- another voice of reason is always welcomeJoe
October 31, 2014
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Genetic algorithms are not analogous to blind watchmaker evolution. GAs are front loaded by intelligent designers with a tremendous amount of information in the fitness functions. They use random searches in a very constrained search space. Not to mention, they do this on a computer that contains a fantastic amount of function complex specificity that was designed by intelligent humans. One might make a case that this happens in nature within organism that are already highly specified, but this cannot answer OOL nor the "emergence" of the protein families and various epigenetic factors that exist. No, GAs are examples intelligent design evolution not blind watchmaker evolution. Try againVishnu
October 31, 2014
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The antenna algorithm was guided towards a solution. The solution would never have been found if the algorithm wasn't written specifically to find it. Genetic and evolutionary algorithms are search heuristics. Natural selection and drift are not.Joe
October 31, 2014
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LoL! @ thorton- the NASA evolved antenna is an example of intelligent design evolution. It has nothing to do with unguided evolution. The algorithm was NOT based on observed evolutionary mechanisms. thorton is either deluded, stupid or lying.Joe
October 31, 2014
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Thronton I don't know if I should laugh or cry, really...... Cry because this is hopeless, you still think matter not only made itself but that it can magically arrange itself....... Laugh because what you said was pure assumption.... Are you for real? So if you just leave stuff, stuff will happen? Good science right there then! Over and out!Andre
October 31, 2014
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Andre
Thornton Ok so can we get your thoughts on this paper recently describing design as not a mere illusion but a certainty? http://phys.org/news/2014-07-f.....imple.html
Neither the overview nor the actual paper refer to any certainty of intelligent design.
Can you propose any mechanism other than intelligence, that has the capability of solving an engineering problem?
Yes. An iterative processes that involve many samples with random variations, a filtering process that keeps the best of the random samples and which uses those for the basis of the next iteration. Such a process produced this NASA evolved antenna design Evolution is such a process. The algorithm NASA used was based on the observed evolutionary mechanisms.Thorton
October 31, 2014
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@ Andre 393
Thornton Ok so can we get your thoughts on this paper recently describing design as not a mere illusion but a certainty? http://phys.org/news/2014-07-f.....imple.html Can you propose any mechanism other than intelligence, that has the capability of solving an engineering problem?
You don't have to wait for his reply - I already know it : Iterative process can create complex processes and structure. P.S: Okay who ever is moderating, please stop moderating my posts.Me_Think
October 31, 2014
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Astroman- was your point that when good people are attacked and provoked by lowlifes that they hit back? I agree that is OK.Joe
October 31, 2014
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Astroman...Joe
October 31, 2014
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Astromaqn, you have a point? Can you share it?Joe
October 31, 2014
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Joe, you're proving my point.Astroman
October 31, 2014
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Astroman- I treat people as they treat me and other IDists. That is a factJoe
October 31, 2014
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So keith s is still saying that unguided evolution would not produce transitional forms because transitional forms would ruin an objective nested hierarchy. So either keith s is lying or he is just willfully ignorant.Joe
October 31, 2014
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Darwin refuted the notion that unguided and gradual evolution predicts an objective nested hierarchy. keith s just hand-waves that refutation away.Joe
October 31, 2014
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timmy:
In the expression “survival of the fittest” the fittest aren’t defined as “those who survive”.
I didn't say it was.
The “fittest” are the portion of the population with a higher statistical probability of reproducing that the others.
So you have observe the population over many generations. And even then it is as I said.
Among the many people Joe has made threats to he once threatened to harm not just me but my family.
Liar. It's as if timmy just can't help itself.Joe
October 31, 2014
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timmy the liar strikes again:
Like I said it’s not just me. Joe is an “internet tough guy” with a big mouth who’s made threats to many people.
Liar- calling out cowards is not the same as making threats. However, I am sure the cowards felt threatened.Joe
October 31, 2014
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keith s, still clueless:
If you’ve got the idea that Joe doesn’t lash out except when provoked, guess again. Here’s how he “introduced” himself to Jerry Coyne.
LoL! Coyne has been attacking ID and IDists for years. He has proven that he is a wind-bag- just like you. Coyne has provoked IDists for years. keith s is an imbecile.Joe
October 31, 2014
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Astroman you are clueless. I hit back. I do not start these fights. Grow upJoe
October 31, 2014
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keiths:
If you pit ID against unguided evolution on a level playing field, unguided evolution wins, hands down.
Seeing that unguided evolution can't explain anything that statement is pure BS. But that is all keith hasJoe
October 31, 2014
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Andre: "Those are retaliations born from your belittling, like you Joe and Mapou are human and after a while of being belittled people will start hitting back at you…. It is clear that you don’t really understand the term freedom of speech, it does not mean you may attack or assassinate people’s characters, but you’ve been doing it anyway. Make your case have it refuted or not and move on there is no need to hurt people’s feelings because you can’t win an argument." "Joe is his own man, I already said I don’t approve of it, and you will know that Joe and I have also disagreed, but there is a trick that you seem to be incapable of doing….. Know when to back off and know when to say sorry and know when to stand firm. It is totally ok to be wrong sometimes and to admit it makes you better than your opponent." Andre, your double standards and lack of self-awareness are not doing you any favors. ID opponents are not perfect in their behavior, and are sometimes far from perfect, but if any ID proponent actually thinks that ID proponents are setting a better example of good behavior, they are deluded.Astroman
October 31, 2014
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Keith S it was never my choice nor agreed upon that I could only get the info from the other thread, that was your decision. I had no part in that. I am registered at TSZ but have been called all kinds of names there, so in principle I decided not to comment there anymore. Spend some time on the question and give it to me straight its not so hard...... and it is relevant even to this OP.Andre
October 31, 2014
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Andre, You have your very own thread at TSZ for this topic. I'm happy to discuss it with you there, but I'm not going to derail this thread. If you're not willing to comment at TSZ, you're out of luck.keith s
October 30, 2014
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Keith S Please please please! Show us how an unguided processes manufactured a guided process to prevent unguided processes from happing.... Ignoring me does no make the problem go away! Please respond with your evidence please!Andre
October 30, 2014
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Box,
There is little progress in our discussion. In post #7 I have listed objections against your argument. I stick by each and every one of them.
And yet your objections fail, as I've demonstrated over and over. If you pit ID against unguided evolution on a level playing field, unguided evolution wins, hands down. Fighting the truth is nothing to be proud of, Box.keith s
October 30, 2014
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Joe is his own man, I already said I don't approve of it, and you will know that Joe and I have also disagreed, but there is a trick that you seem to be incapable of doing..... Know when to back off and know when to say sorry and know when to stand firm. It is totally ok to be wrong sometimes and to admit it makes you better than your opponent.Andre
October 30, 2014
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