Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Keith’s “Bomb” Defused & Debunked

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Even though keiths “bomb” has been defused and debunked in several ways, it has occurred to me that there is another major flaw in keiths argument. However, to reiterate the main debunking point: Barry Arrington asked for a “science bomb” that would demonstrate him wrong about what ID argues; keith’s “bomb” assumes the very thing that ID challenges – that natural forces are capable of producing the CSI found in living organisms. This makes keiths argument logical in nature (given he assumes everything that requires actual science), not scientific, and renders it irrelevant to the challenge – irrelevant even if it was logically valid, which it is not, as I will now show.

First, let’s assume that genetically, living organisms do fall into a nested hierarchy.

Keiths claims that a nested hierarchy leading back to a UCA is what we’d expect to find if natural forces were responsible for life and evolution – yet, he doesn’t explain this expectation – why natural forces could not be expected to produce something other than what we would find to be a nested hierarchy.

If the manufacture of living organisms occurred once in the very early history of earth, why not more than once? Why couldn’t there be multiple ancestral lines leading back to many origin of life points and multiple, entirely separate lines of descent? Why shouldn’t we find multiple, distinctly separate nested hierarchies? Why shouldn’t we find outlier species that, by chance circumstances, bore no distinguishable relationship whatsoever to the known hierarchy?

Given non-teleological natural forces that do not have a specific goal in mind, why should there be only one branching line of descent for living organisms that falls into a neat, nested hierarchy (here assumed arguendo)? Over billions of years, is it not possible for living organisms to diverge so completely so as to lose all genetic material that would connect to any other historical lineage, even if life, for some strange reason (given materialist thinking), only originated once?

Given natural forces as the originator of life, why wouldn’t we expect there to be several different forms of life on earth that are not even remotely related? Even if related, why should we expect natural forces to leave evidence of the relationship? Couldn’t natural forces -given enough time and chance – find ways to eliminate evidence of these relationships? Given billions of years, isn’t it rather odd to think that natural forces couldn’t generate any other form of life, or sever the relationship evidence between a few organisms even once?

Given billions of years and all that available chance, our arguendo single, nested heirarchy of life leading back to a single UCA seems to me extremely unlikely – it smacks more of a design choice that frontloaded a specific search plan, prohibited clutter, excised outliers and optimized the chances for arriving at the goal.

Ultimately, keiths asks the question of IDists (to paraphrase) – “why did the designer pick just one form of life and utilize just one lineage, when it could have utilized any number of alternate, non-nested systems?” – yet, keiths fails to ask the same question of the natural forces argument – why just one form of life, why one lineage, why one neat, nested hierarchy?

Keiths attempted logical argument claims to make the same assumptions about both natural and artificial causal agencies – that natural forces and design are both capable of originating life and generating the evolutionary processes and patterns we find. However, this is obviously not the only assumption keiths makes when it comes to the “natural forces” side of the argument; he assumes that natural forces could not have generated anything other than a nested hierarchy leading back to a UCA when it comes to biological life forms.

He simply asserts that this is what we should expect from natural forces and makes no case for it. If we provide the same assumptions on the ID side of the argument, then we must assume any designer could not have generated anything other than a nested hierarchy leading back to a UCA when it comes to biological life forms – which means that given the same assumptions on both sides of the ledger, keiths argument fails to produce a distinction between what we should expect to find if natural forces or if design agency generated life and evolution here on earth.

Comments
Thornton Ok so can we get your thoughts on this paper recently describing design as not a mere illusion but a certainty? http://phys.org/news/2014-07-fiber-optic-pipes-retina-simple.html Can you propose any mechanism other than intelligence, that has the capability of solving an engineering problem?Andre
October 30, 2014
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Andre, If you've got the idea that Joe doesn't lash out except when provoked, guess again. Here's how he "introduced" himself to Jerry Coyne. Spend some time at Joey's website and you'll get a feel for his true character.keith s
October 30, 2014
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Already said I'm good with that. Let the science discussions begin! Just imagine, a science discussion at UD - there's a first time for everything. ;)Thorton
October 30, 2014
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Thornton So let us then be civil towards each other, perhaps that might inspire Joe to do the same.Andre
October 30, 2014
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The catalyst is that Joe's your basic garden variety asshole. To everyone who disagrees with him on anything. Insults and threat are all he knows. It's a matter of public record, go read it for yourself. Thanks but there's nothing that needs your help to fix. You told me something very personal about you, now I told you something very personal about me. We're even.Thorton
October 30, 2014
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I agree with you it is uncalled for but some light on how it led to this might be good in resolving the matter... Did Joe just bully you for no reason? What would lead a man to a point of threatening another and his family? What was the catalyst for such a devious act?Andre
October 30, 2014
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Andre
So are you saying you are the victim of an internet bully?
I'm saying I don't forgive people who make physical threats against my family even if the guy is a blustering impotent ass. Is that a hard concept to grasp? Maybe if it were your family you'd feel differently.Thorton
October 30, 2014
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"371 AndreOctober 30, 2014 at 10:40 pm Thronton Those are retaliations born from your belittling, like you Joe and Mapou are human and after a while of being belittled people will start hitting back at you…." Well, that was quite one sided. Four legs gooooood, two legs baaaaaaaad?Rich
October 30, 2014
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Ashby Camp on Walter ReMine:
It may be that the nested hierarchy of living things simply is a reflection of divine orderliness. It also may be, as Walter ReMine suggests, that nested hierarchy is an integral part of a message woven by the Creator into the patterns of biology.
ReMine's idea makes no sense. He actually presented it at UD a few years ago, but that didn't go very well. This was my response to his OP:
Walter ReMine writes:
The central claims of Message Theory – Life was reasonably designed to meet three simultaneous goals: 1. Survival 2. To look like the product of one designer (or unified design team acting together as one), and unlike the product of multiple designers acting independently. 3. To resist all other explanations of origin.</i
If these are the goals, then the designer isn’t doing very well:
1. Survival.
a. Mayflies die immediately after mating. Soldier ants sacrifice themselves in defense of the colony. The goal for an organism is not so much to survive as it is to get its genes into future generations. Survival can be a means toward that end, but the end itself is the transmission of genes, as the mayfly and ant examples show. b. 99.9 percent of all species have already gone extinct and today’s world is full of species that compete for resources and eat each other. How does this cohere with the idea that the designer wants all species to survive?
2. To look like the product of one designer (or unified design team acting together as one), and unlike the product of multiple designers acting independently.
The designer has done a bad job of this as well. For example, any minimally intelligent designer who wanted to give an impression of unified design would not fill niches in Australia with marsupials and equivalent niches in Europe and Asia with placentals. Nor would a designer with such a goal put cacti in American deserts, but create other succulents for equivalent deserts elsewhere in the world. There are many other examples like these.
3. To resist all other explanations of origin.
If this is a goal, the designer has failed miserably. The scientific community used to be overwhelmingly creationist. Now, based on the evidentiary “message” that the designer has purportedly sent, all but a few biologists have embraced modern evolutionary theory. That includes theistic scientists who would happily embrace a theory of design if the evidence supported it. Not a very effective “message”, is it? If none of its three claims survive scrutiny, Walter, then why should we accept Message Theory?
keith s
October 30, 2014
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Thornton So are you saying you are the victim of an internet bully?Andre
October 30, 2014
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Like I said it's not just me. Joe is an "internet tough guy" with a big mouth who's made threats to many people. I can laugh at insults all day long - I even appreciate a good verbal zinger - but with my family he crossed the line. There's a reason he has a 260+ page thread at AtBC recording his asshole behavior. Some think he's a borderline psychopath. Don't take it on my word, go over to AtBC and read some of the comments from hundreds of folks yourself.Thorton
October 30, 2014
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Well what led to this is what you have to ask? People don't go to that kind of extremes unless there is some reason. I don't agree with it in anyway and neither do I endorse it. The question however remains what happened that led something like this to happen? Are you entirely blameless? Is it only Joe's fault?Andre
October 30, 2014
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Sorry, no can do. Among the many people Joe has made threats to he once threatened to harm not just me but my family. It was years ago back on the old Internet Infidels board but I haven't forgotten. Heaven help him if I ever meet the prick in person. Sorry if my anger over that incident still colors my views.Thorton
October 30, 2014
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Well we can ask Joe but why don't you do something unexpected and be nice to him....Andre
October 30, 2014
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I'm good with a truce. I'd like nothing better that to just discuss the science. What are you going to do to keep potty-mouth Joe in check?Thorton
October 30, 2014
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Thornton I'm not denying that I too retaliate so here is an offer to you...... I'll be civil and I will make a conscious effort to be courteous to you do you accept my offer? Mudslinging contests are tiresome, good debate is awesome! What do you say Thornton? No more belittling or name calling? Can we call a truce on it?Andre
October 30, 2014
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phoodoo
Anything else brilliant you have on your mind?
Plenty of really neat science I can discuss but every time I bring it up you fling an insult and run screaming from the room. This place bills itself as "serving the intelligent design community" but no one can get a single answer to any questions about ID. "Serving" must mean giving you a convenient platform to fling poo at the evolutionary sciences you don't understand.Thorton
October 30, 2014
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tjguy quotes from Ashby Camp's response to Theobald:
It is not a corollary of the hypothesis of common descent that organisms will have features by which they can be classified as groups within groups.
Exactly, which is why my argument works against guided evolution via common descent. Guided evolution is not subject to the same restrictions as unguided evolution. The latter will produce an objective nested hierarchy (ONH), but the former need not.
There are mechanisms of descent from a common ancestor that would yield a different pattern. If common descent can yield either nested hierarchy or something else, then the presence of nested hierarchy does not count as evidence of common descent.
Yes, which is why it counts as evidence for unguided evolution, where change is gradual and inheritance is primarily vertical.
The pattern of descent depends on the extent that evolved characters are later lost. Suppose losses are significant, and characters are replaced at a high rate. Then there is no reason to expect a nested pattern.
Fortunately, this doesn't happen. Mutation rates are low enough and sequence conservation robust enough to avoid this problem. Otherwise there wouldn't be a consensus ONH for the 30 major taxa.
It may be that the nested hierarchy of living things simply is a reflection of divine orderliness. It also may be, as Walter ReMine suggests, that nested hierarchy is an integral part of a message woven by the Creator into the patterns of biology.
ReMine gets this completely wrong. I'll respond to it in a separate comment.
Dr. Theobald’s claim that “specially designed objects like buildings, furniture, cars, etc.” cannot be classified in a nested hierarchy requires elaboration. In terms of mere classification, it is incorrect. Buildings and vehicles have both been used as examples of nesting (Ridley 1993, 52-54; Fastovsky and Weishampel, 51-53; Brand, 165-166). According to Mark Ridley: Any set of objects, whether or not they originated in an evolutionary process, can be classified hierarchically. Chairs, for instance, are independently created; they are not generated by an evolutionary process: but any given list of chairs could be classified hierarchically, perhaps by dividing them first according to whether or not they were made of wood, then according to their colour, by date of manufacture, and so on. The fact that life can be classified hierarchically is not, in itself, an argument for evolution. (Ridley 1985, 8.)
Camp is confusing nested hierarchies with objective nested hierarchies. Here's Theobald:
Although it is trivial to classify anything subjectively in a hierarchical manner, only certain things can be classified objectively in a consistent, unique nested hierarchy. The difference drawn here between "subjective" and "objective" is crucial and requires some elaboration, and it is best illustrated by example. Different models of cars certainly could be classified hierarchically—perhaps one could classify cars first by color, then within each color by number of wheels, then within each wheel number by manufacturer, etc. However, another individual may classify the same cars first by manufacturer, then by size, then by year, then by color, etc. The particular classification scheme chosen for the cars is subjective. In contrast, human languages, which have common ancestors and are derived by descent with modification, generally can be classified in objective nested hierarchies (Pei 1949; Ringe 1999). Nobody would reasonably argue that Spanish should be categorized with German instead of with Portugese. The difference between classifying cars and classifying languages lies in the fact that, with cars, certain characters (for example, color or manufacturer) must be considered more important than other characters in order for the classification to work. Which types of car characters are more important depends upon the personal preference of the individual who is performing the classification. In other words, certain types of characters must be weighted subjectively in order to classify cars in nested hierarchies; cars do not fall into natural, unique, objective nested hierarchies. Because of these facts, a cladistic analysis of cars will not produce a unique, consistent, well-supported tree that displays nested hierarchies. A cladistic analysis of cars (or, alternatively, a cladistic analysis of imaginary organisms with randomly assigned characters) will of course result in a phylogeny, but there will be a very large number of other phylogenies, many of them with very different topologies, that are as well-supported by the same data. In contrast, a cladistic analysis of organisms or languages will generally result in a well-supported nested hierarchy, without arbitrarily weighting certain characters (Ringe 1999). Cladistic analysis of a true genealogical process produces one or relatively few phylogenetic trees that are much more well-supported by the data than the other possible trees.
tjguy:
It may not be conclusive, but it sure does show that there is another side to this that Keiths is ignoring.
No. As you can see from the above, Camp's points don't hurt my argument at all, and some of them even reinforce it.
Keiths’s argument mainly comes down to what he thinks the Creator would or would not do.
Not at all. My argument is a huge problem for ID, precisely because I do not assume what a designer would or would not do. Vjtorley understands this, which is why he is trying to add assumptions, not remove them. Unfortunately, that means that he has to find a way of justifying the added assumptions.keith s
October 30, 2014
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Andre
Those are retaliations born from your belittling
Bullshit Andre. Joe has been doing it all across the web for a decade. He even got fired from a job once for making physical threats from his company's computer system. You personally have been called out on multiple verbal attacks, not just differences of opinion. If you want civility then start acting civil yourself Mr. Pot calling the kettle black.Thorton
October 30, 2014
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Thorton, Please, please continue. Anything else brilliant you have on your mind?phoodoo
October 30, 2014
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Same question for you BA77 as for Andre - where was this moral outrage when Joe Gallien was posting his "soliciting sex in the men's room" vile insults that even got News upset? You and KF both are huge flaming hypocrites in my book and in the book of many lurkers at AtBC.Thorton
October 30, 2014
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Thronton Good example above, BA gives you some advice, you don't have to take it but do you have to call him BATSPIT?Andre
October 30, 2014
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Thronton Those are retaliations born from your belittling, like you Joe and Mapou are human and after a while of being belittled people will start hitting back at you.... It is clear that you don't really understand the term freedom of speech, it does not mean you may attack or assassinate people's characters, but you've been doing it anyway. Make your case have it refuted or not and move on there is no need to hurt people's feelings because you can't win an argument.Andre
October 30, 2014
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batspit77
not to get in your personal business
Corny Hunter doesn't ban people, he just keeps posts he doesn't like in moderation. Some he still lets through. I don't post there anymore because I got tired of him letting the filth-spewing Joe and Louis Savain have free run while censoring pro-science comments. Many places do ban users solely for a pro-science stance just like UD did, just like Fred Williams' EvolutionFairyTale does, just like CARM still does. Censorship and double standards are a way of life for Creationist websites. We in the scientific community accept it. Tell you what - I'll behave like an angel if you stop posting your two dozen 1000 word scroll-wheel-killing nonsensical screeds and holier-than-thou preaching in every thread. Your call.Thorton
October 30, 2014
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I have a little different take on Thorton. I think seeing what he writes is very useful for the evolution-ID debate. I mean what better advertisement could there be for the empty rhetoric of evolutionist thought than Thorton? He is the gift that just keeps giving. He is like Rob Ford. Just let him speak. The more he writes, the more people will say, Holy Cow, you mean this is what evolution supporters are? Omagain at TSZ is very similar. You want to see who has the better arguments-just let these guys write.phoodoo
October 30, 2014
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Thorton, not to get in your personal business, but I've seen you post for a few years now, and you even managed to get banned from Dr. Hunter's blog with your caustic behavior. Which was really hard for you to manage to do since he pretty much has/had the patience of Job with you for a long time. Just a suggestion, but perhaps if you would try to be a bit nicer to people, and not be so insulting of other people, perhaps, just perhaps, other people would not return the insults in kind? I'm not saying be a door mat to other people, but you might just be surprised that you get to stay around a while, instead of eventually being banned for being overly rude. Just a suggestion buddy :)bornagain77
October 30, 2014
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Andre
I’m not asking for censorship, I’m asking why should we tolerate your belittling tactics Thornton?
I'll believe you're not a flaming hypocrite when you speak out again Joe Gallien posting his "soliciting for sex in the men's room" insults, or Mapou with his. Until then you can STFU.Thorton
October 30, 2014
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I see Joke demonstrating his ignorance again. In the expression "survival of the fittest" the fittest aren't defined as "those who survive". The "fittest" are the portion of the population with a higher statistical probability of reproducing that the others. Not all of the fittest get to reproduce, not all of the less fit die with no offspring. "Fittest" does not equal "successfully reproduced" so there's no tautology. Creationists have been using this same dumb PRATT argument for decades now and they're still too slow to get it.Thorton
October 30, 2014
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I'm not asking for censorship, I'm asking why should we tolerate your belittling tactics Thornton? You started it.Andre
October 30, 2014
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Well that was right on schedule. It normally takes about a week of Creationists being exposed to actual scientific evidence and having to defend their nonsensical claims before they start crying for censorship again. Andre didn't disappoint.Thorton
October 30, 2014
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