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Keith’s “Bomb” Defused & Debunked

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Even though keiths “bomb” has been defused and debunked in several ways, it has occurred to me that there is another major flaw in keiths argument. However, to reiterate the main debunking point: Barry Arrington asked for a “science bomb” that would demonstrate him wrong about what ID argues; keith’s “bomb” assumes the very thing that ID challenges – that natural forces are capable of producing the CSI found in living organisms. This makes keiths argument logical in nature (given he assumes everything that requires actual science), not scientific, and renders it irrelevant to the challenge – irrelevant even if it was logically valid, which it is not, as I will now show.

First, let’s assume that genetically, living organisms do fall into a nested hierarchy.

Keiths claims that a nested hierarchy leading back to a UCA is what we’d expect to find if natural forces were responsible for life and evolution – yet, he doesn’t explain this expectation – why natural forces could not be expected to produce something other than what we would find to be a nested hierarchy.

If the manufacture of living organisms occurred once in the very early history of earth, why not more than once? Why couldn’t there be multiple ancestral lines leading back to many origin of life points and multiple, entirely separate lines of descent? Why shouldn’t we find multiple, distinctly separate nested hierarchies? Why shouldn’t we find outlier species that, by chance circumstances, bore no distinguishable relationship whatsoever to the known hierarchy?

Given non-teleological natural forces that do not have a specific goal in mind, why should there be only one branching line of descent for living organisms that falls into a neat, nested hierarchy (here assumed arguendo)? Over billions of years, is it not possible for living organisms to diverge so completely so as to lose all genetic material that would connect to any other historical lineage, even if life, for some strange reason (given materialist thinking), only originated once?

Given natural forces as the originator of life, why wouldn’t we expect there to be several different forms of life on earth that are not even remotely related? Even if related, why should we expect natural forces to leave evidence of the relationship? Couldn’t natural forces -given enough time and chance – find ways to eliminate evidence of these relationships? Given billions of years, isn’t it rather odd to think that natural forces couldn’t generate any other form of life, or sever the relationship evidence between a few organisms even once?

Given billions of years and all that available chance, our arguendo single, nested heirarchy of life leading back to a single UCA seems to me extremely unlikely – it smacks more of a design choice that frontloaded a specific search plan, prohibited clutter, excised outliers and optimized the chances for arriving at the goal.

Ultimately, keiths asks the question of IDists (to paraphrase) – “why did the designer pick just one form of life and utilize just one lineage, when it could have utilized any number of alternate, non-nested systems?” – yet, keiths fails to ask the same question of the natural forces argument – why just one form of life, why one lineage, why one neat, nested hierarchy?

Keiths attempted logical argument claims to make the same assumptions about both natural and artificial causal agencies – that natural forces and design are both capable of originating life and generating the evolutionary processes and patterns we find. However, this is obviously not the only assumption keiths makes when it comes to the “natural forces” side of the argument; he assumes that natural forces could not have generated anything other than a nested hierarchy leading back to a UCA when it comes to biological life forms.

He simply asserts that this is what we should expect from natural forces and makes no case for it. If we provide the same assumptions on the ID side of the argument, then we must assume any designer could not have generated anything other than a nested hierarchy leading back to a UCA when it comes to biological life forms – which means that given the same assumptions on both sides of the ledger, keiths argument fails to produce a distinction between what we should expect to find if natural forces or if design agency generated life and evolution here on earth.

Comments
Congregate @25 says in response to drc's questions in 24:
Those are excellent questions. If you want answers this may not be the place to ask them, though. The only thing ID can tell us is that they were all designed at some point.
It is true, Congregate, that the evolutionists claim to have "answers" or shall we say "explanations". We grant you that. Now if only they could show us that their ad hoc explanations were really true, wouldn't that be something?! In this debate, neither side really has conclusive answers. But many of us believe the ID answers make much more sense than the other side's "answers".tjguy
October 30, 2014
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Even James Shapiro thinks his "natural genetic engineering" arose by chance. I bet astro couldn't find one evolutionary biologist who disagrees with me. And I am OK with that ;)Joe
October 30, 2014
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Ernst Mayr in “What Evolution Is” page 281: On natural selection being a pressure or force
What is meant, of course, is simply that a consistent lack of success of certain phenotypes and their elimination from the population result in the observed changes in a population
On the role of chance:
The first step in selection, the production of genetic variation, is almost exclusively a chance phenomenon except that the nature of the changes at a given locus is strongly constrained. Chance plays an important role even at the second step, the process of elimination of the less fit individuals. Chance may be particularly important in the haphazard survival during periods of mass extinction.
"But chance phenomena isn't really chance." LoL!Joe
October 30, 2014
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09:27 AM
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Astroman- you have nothing. I could go on and on but what is the use. Ernst Mayr agrees with me.
What you didn’t show is that you understand the definition of those words in the context of their use,
Go ahead and show me that I was wrong, then. Why are you such a coward? Your innuendos mean nothing. "Accidents aren't really accidents wrt biology. Mistakes and errors aren't really mistakes and errors wrt biology. Chance and happenstance aren't really chance and happenstance wrt biology." Remain an ignorant coward the rest of your life, astro.Joe
October 30, 2014
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Joe, you're obviously incapable of having a serious, honest discussion and what you quoted changes nothing except that you showed that some evolutionary biologists use the words accidental and mistakes. What you didn't show is that you understand the definition of those words in the context of their use, and you are extremely far from showing that “evolution proceeds via accidents/ errors/mistakes” is “all” that evolutionary biologists say. It's not surprising that your claims are rarely if ever supported by other ID proponents. Don't be surprised if I also ignore you most or all of the time.Astroman
October 30, 2014
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So my observation that an increase in genetic information is the barrier to macro evolution. I was right I do understand evolution. Wolfgang vindicated my claim. What prediction have you made Thornton that can be tested and verified? Mine was :)Andre
October 30, 2014
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And yet we have told you all about it. I have posted it several times in the last few days. Just because you are a willfully ignorant ass doesn't mean anything, timmy.Joe
October 30, 2014
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Joke
At least ID has a scientific methodology.
It's just sooper-dooper secret and the IDiots can't tell anybody. They can't even demonstrate it. Got it. :)Thorton
October 30, 2014
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timmy, it's time to change your diaper and take a nap. :razz:Joe
October 30, 2014
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batspit77
So Thorton you see no problems with the fact that one of Dawkins’ supposed ‘greatest examples’ of macro-evolution in Dog breeding is found to be through ‘no increase in information but rather a decrease or loss of function on the genetic and anatomical levels’? And why does this no bother you Thorton?
The anti-science lies and horsecrap vomited up by the likes of Gerbil Luskin and the DI tend not to bother me batspit. Except maybe to make my side hurt from laughing.Thorton
October 30, 2014
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Nice projection timmy as evolutionism is void of details. There isn't any scientific reality to evolutionism. At least ID has a scientific methodology. Perhaps some day evolutionsim will come up with that much.Joe
October 30, 2014
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So Thorton you see no problems with the fact that one of Dawkins' supposed 'greatest examples' of macro-evolution in Dog breeding is found to be through 'no increase in information but rather a decrease or loss of function on the genetic and anatomical levels'? And why does this no bother you Thorton? If you were honest to the empirical evidence you would admit that this is a severe problem for your claims. But you hurl insults and pretend that is not the devastating blow that it is. This does not reflect well on your personal integrity Thortonbornagain77
October 30, 2014
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ID isn't about any details Joke. That's the problem. ID is only about religious fanatics looking for any way to deny the scientific reality of evolution. You prove that every time you post.Thorton
October 30, 2014
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How can evolutionism verify its timelines? They can't and that means it isn't about science.Joe
October 30, 2014
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ID isn't about timelines.Joe
October 30, 2014
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Hey Joke, where's that ID timeline? Maybe Poodoo can produce the data you can't.Thorton
October 30, 2014
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Unguided evolution cannot explain canidae....Joe
October 30, 2014
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phoodoo- thorton is proof that humans and apes are related- at least his family, anyway.Joe
October 30, 2014
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batspit77
as to dogs Thorton,
We're discussing canidae evolution Phil, not just domestic dogs. Go back to posting Christian music videos.Thorton
October 30, 2014
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It is very telling that the very people who love to try to prove that I am wrong are choking when asked to link to the theory of evolution.Joe
October 30, 2014
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I think Thorton is the perfect poster boy for the evolutionist side of the debate. Absolutely perfect.phoodoo
October 30, 2014
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Obviously we are right and you are just an ignorant coward, timmy. There isn't any theory of evolution. Grow up and deal with reality.Joe
October 30, 2014
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thorton is still too much of a coward to link to the alleged theory of evolution. Why is that, timmy?Joe
October 30, 2014
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Looks like Poodoo wants to join Joke in the "Nuh uh!" toddler playpen tooThorton
October 30, 2014
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Joke
I have looked. It doesn’t exist.
Chubby Joke is still in toddler-style "nuh uh!" mode. I wonder how long the phase will last? Keep making ID proud Joke. You're the best!Thorton
October 30, 2014
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thorton:
Science agrees on the basics like timeline and the mechanisms.
Reference please.Joe
October 30, 2014
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Astro, I don't need a link. Don't be shy (like old Thorton there) just tell us, what is this supposed theory of evolution?phoodoo
October 30, 2014
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as to dogs Thorton,, The Dog Delusion - October 30, 2014 Excerpt: In his latest book, geneticist Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig of the Max Planck Institutes in Germany takes on the widespread view that dog breeds prove macroevolution.,,, He shows in great detail that the incredible variety of dog breeds, going back in origin several thousand years ago but especially to the last few centuries, represents no increase in information but rather a decrease or loss of function on the genetic and anatomical levels. Michael Behe writes: "Dr. Lönnig shows forcefully that one of the chief examples Darwinists rely on to convince the public of macroevolution -- the enormous variation in dogs -- actually shows the opposite. Extremes in size and anatomy come at the cost of broken genes and poor health. Even several gene duplications were found to interfere strongly with normal growth and development as is also often the case in humans. So where is the evidence for Darwinian evolution now?" The science here is indeed solid. Intriguingly, Lönnig's prediction from 2013 on starch digestion in wolves has already been confirmed in a study published this year.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/10/the_dog_delusio090751.htmlbornagain77
October 30, 2014
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Joke
LoL! As if evos agree on everything evolution. Grow up, timmy.
Science agrees on the basics like timeline and the mechanisms. You guys can't even do that.
And AGAIN, those timelines were under the evolutionary framework.
Then give us the timelines under the ID framework.Thorton
October 30, 2014
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The vast majority of fossils are those of marine inverts. And we do not observe common descent with those. thorton doesn't know what a nested hierarchy is, so whatever he sez about them is bound to be false. BTW the data is assumed to be that from natural selection and drift. That also means it is bound to be false and neither can account for dogs.Joe
October 30, 2014
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