Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Ken Miller’s Strawman No Threat to ID

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Earlier today the News desk posted a video of Brown University biochemist Ken Miller’s takedown of ID. This is a fascinating video and it is worthwhile to post a transcript for those readers who do not have time to stream it. The video is excerpted from a BBC documentary called, with scintillating journalistic objectivity, The War on Science.

BBC Commenter: In two days of testimony [at the Dover trial] Miller attempted to knock down the arguments for intelligent design one by one. Also on his [i.e., Miller’s] hit list, Dembski’s criticism of evolution, that it was simply too improbable.

Miller: One of the mathematical tricks employed by intelligent design involves taking the present day situation and calculating probabilities that the present would have appeared randomly from events in the past. And the best example I can give is to sit down with four friends, shuffle a deck of 52 cards, and deal them out and keep an exact record of the order in which the cards were dealt. We can then look back and say ‘my goodness, how improbable this is. We can play cards for the rest of our lives and we would never ever deal the cards out in this exact same fashion.’ You know what; that’s absolutely correct. Nonetheless, you dealt them out and nonetheless you got the hand that you did.

BBC Commentator: For Miller, Dembski’s math did not add up. The chances of life evolving just like the chance of getting a particular hand of cards could not be calculated backwards. By doing so the odds were unfairly stacked. Played that way, cards and life would always appear impossible.

Now, to be fair to Miller, in a letter to Panda’s Thumb, he denies that his card comment was a response to Dembski’s work. He says poor BBC editing only made it appear that he was responding to Dembski, when really, “all I was addressing was a general argument one hears from many ID supporters in which one takes something like a particular amino acid sequence, and then calculates the probability of the exact same sequence arising again through mere chance.”

The problem with Miller’s response is that even if one takes it at face value he still appears mendacious, because no ID supporter has ever, as far as I know, argued “X is improbable; therefore X was designed.” Consider the example advanced by Miller, a sequence of 52 cards dealt from a shuffled deck. Miller’s point is that extremely improbable non-designed events occur all the time and therefore it is wrong to say extremely improbable events must be designed. Miller blatently misrepresents ID theory, because, as I noted above, no ID proponent says that mere improbability denotes design.

 
Suppose, however, your friend appeared to shuffle the cards thoroughly and dealt out the following sequence: all hearts in order from 2 to Ace; all spades in order from 2 to Ace; all diamonds in order from 2 to Ace; and then all clubs in order from 2 to Ace.  As a matter of strict mathematical probability analysis, this particular sequence of 52 cards has the exact same probability as any other sequence of 52 cards. But of course you would never attribute that sequence to chance. You would naturally conclude that your friend has performed a card trick where the cards only appeared to be randomized when they were shuffled. In other words, you would make a perfectly reasonable design inference.

What is the difference between Miller’s example and my example? In Miller’s example the sequence of cards was only highly improbable. In my example the sequence of cards is not only highly improbable, but also it conforms to a specification. ID proponents do not argue that mere improbability denotes design. They argue that design is the best explanation where there is a highly improbable event AND that event conforms to an independently designated specification.

Here’s the interesting part. Ken Miller has been debating design proponents all over the country for many years. He knows ID theory very well. Yet instead of choosing to take ID’s arguments headon, he constructs a strawman of ID theory and knocks it down.

I am not a scientist or a mathematician. I am a lawyer, but perhaps my legal training has given me an invaluable tool in the Darwin-ID debate, the tool Phil Johnson calls a “baloney detector.” And my baloney detector tells me that Ken Miller is full of baloney. Miller knows that no reputable ID proponent equates mere “improbability” with “design.” Yet there he is declaring to all the world that it is a “general argument” of “many ID supporters.”

I have to wonder. If, as the Darwinsts say, ID theory is so weak, why don’t they take it on squarely? Why do they feel compelled to attack a strawman caricature instead of the real deal? Indeed, Darwinists’ apparent fear of taking on ID on its own terms is one of the things that gives me great confidence in the theory, and that confidence will be shaken only if Darwinists ever begin to knock down the real ID instead of their ridiculous caricatures of the theory.

Comments
gpuccio, In order to justify that a protein was designed for a specific function, you need some evidence that a conscious designer had an intended purpose for the protein. You haven't done that. All you've done is note an observed current function and fit a specification around it. It's no different than saying that a specification of gold is to provide people with a good investment.lastyearon
December 14, 2011
December
12
Dec
14
14
2011
09:03 AM
9
09
03
AM
PDT
Petrushka: Do you mean the rugged landscape paper with the viral model?gpuccio
December 14, 2011
December
12
Dec
14
14
2011
09:00 AM
9
09
00
AM
PDT
Just for fun, don't forget the experiment in which the viability of a bacterium was recovered by a synthetic protein having no known function. I know we had some fun with that, but my current question would be how does a designer anticipate this kind of result, assuming he is using directed evolution?Petrushka
December 14, 2011
December
12
Dec
14
14
2011
08:48 AM
8
08
48
AM
PDT
lastyearon: So, you conflate "function" with "interaction"? On what basis?gpuccio
December 14, 2011
December
12
Dec
14
14
2011
07:47 AM
7
07
47
AM
PDT
Heinrich: I quote from my answer to DrREC in this thread: "Functional specification, for a protein, is the specific definition of the biochemical function of that protein, and a threshold of minimal functionality for it. It is defined by a conscious designer, on the basis of what he observes. The target space is defined as the sum of all sequences that exhibit that function, at least at the threshold level." Just to start the discussion.gpuccio
December 14, 2011
December
12
Dec
14
14
2011
07:45 AM
7
07
45
AM
PDT
Hmm, there's a subtle problem about specification in here. To calculate the probabilities of a specified pattern, we have to have the specification before we see the data (otherwise we're drawing our target around the arrow). In Miller's example, the pattern is specified afterwards. In Barry's example, there's no explicit a priori specification of the pattern. However, we have some intuitive sense that the observed pattern is interesting. So, we can think that there is a vague a priori specification. The problem is, though, that to make any calculations relevant, we need to specify "interestingness". i.e. we need to be able to list all "interesting" patterns. I think we can get away with doing this after we see the data, as long as we can be very clear about the range of "interesting" patterns. But then that just raises the question of whether it's been done in ID. Anyone?Heinrich
December 14, 2011
December
12
Dec
14
14
2011
05:12 AM
5
05
12
AM
PDT
Your still assuming a conscious entity intended life in your starting premise.
No, I am not. And YOU don't get to tell me what I am assuming. My inference is based on KNOWLEDGE of cause and effect relationships whereas your position relies solely on the batlle-cry "anything but design at all costs!"Joe
December 14, 2011
December
12
Dec
14
14
2011
04:02 AM
4
04
02
AM
PDT
Useful to whom? Your still assuming a conscious entity intended life in your starting premise.lastyearon
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
06:33 PM
6
06
33
PM
PDT
Complex systems that produce a useful function always arise from a designer- at least that is what all of our experiences and observations say. But then again all you care about is obfuscationJoe
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
05:59 PM
5
05
59
PM
PDT
Everything has a function. In that everything interacts with the stuff around it to produce an effect. Sometimes the function is simple, sometimes complex. A function doesn't imply a designer.lastyearon
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
04:57 PM
4
04
57
PM
PDT
Look, just admit that you are clueless and move on. Functionality is the specification. And if any amino acid sequence could produce the same function then there isn't any specification.Joe
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
04:54 PM
4
04
54
PM
PDT
Yes Newton's First Rule and I see you are still choking on it. And no specification does not require a specifier- I take it you did not read my response or perhaps you are too dim to grasp it. Dude, specification doesn’t automatically = design. But it does have to be accounted for. And so far a specification of high probability has always led to a designer. So we start with X- the thing being investigated and then try to determine its cause. Specification could very well be due to law/ regularity. Specification PLUS improbability- and yes we determine specification via functionality. So to sum up DrREC doesn't understand how scientists determine design from not and he thinks his ignorance is a refutation. Cause and effect relationships "doc"- so all YOU have to do to refute any given design inference is actually step up and demonstrate the power of your position, which as of now seems to be a lot of bloviating.Joe
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
04:52 PM
4
04
52
PM
PDT
A specification is defined by a designer to produce something that performs a specific function resulting in a specific desired effect. You can't use that term in your argument that proteins were designed because that's circular reasoning.lastyearon
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
04:45 PM
4
04
45
PM
PDT
DrRec: Funcctional specification, for a protein, is the specific definition of the biochemical function of that protein, and a threshold of minimal functionality for it. It is defined by a conscious designer, on the basis of what he observes. The target space is defined as the sum of all sequences that exhibit that function, at least at the threshold level. Once defined that fubction, we can compute the functional complexity for it. You are right that it is the probability to get that particular function, and not any possible function. But that does not help much. In an already organized biological environment, the already existing complexity limijts drastically the possible new selectable functions. Remember that the function must be selectable, that is it must, as it is, give a reproductive advantage. That restricts the functional target a lot. Moreover, even if there are n possible selectable functions of reasonable complexity (lets' say not more than 500 bits) that could be found in a specific biological environment, please remember that their probabilities can only be summed to get to the final probability of "any possible selectable function". That will not help much, with search spaces of that dimension. So, your statement "Maybe something not so improbable at all." looks incredibly optimistic. Darwinists continue to hide behind the fairy tale of "any possible function", only because they believe that it cannot be quantitatively computed. Those "possible functions" must be selectable, and integrated in already existing complexity. In many cases, maybe in most, a selectable function will be irreducibly complex, because it needs the coexistence of many new proteins. The thresholds we consider in ID, be it Dembski's 500 bits or my 150 bits, are extreme, and they easily take into account the possibility that more than one new function may be selectable. The empirical threshold for success in the wild ot in the lab is still in the order of 2-6 AAs. So, be reassured: it is and remains extremely improbable, all considered. And the initial statement remains perfectly true: "no ID supporter has ever, as far as I know, argued “X is improbable; therefore X was designed." Complexity and specification are lawys connected in ID, whatever you may think.gpuccio
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
03:45 PM
3
03
45
PM
PDT
Newton's first rule again Joe? What an odd choice to add to your repertoire of one-line answers. No clue how you've decided it answers this question. Let's put this in easy terms. Specification requires a specifier (you)! You choose the function. Is a bacterial flagella specified? Why? Is it required for life? Does it need to look the way it does? Are there other things in life that perform the same function? Are there other things that could have evolved to perform the same function? "And so far a specification of high probability has always led to a designer." I think you mean a specified (design?) of low probability. But see what your saying: "X is improbable; therefore X was designed." And since you specified the specification, it is circular.DrREC
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
03:15 PM
3
03
15
PM
PDT
Does a blind watchmaker use symbols?Joe
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
12:54 PM
12
12
54
PM
PDT
Because in determining if something is designed, you start from the assumption that it is designed.
Wrong again. We have been over this- Newton's First Rule. And specification = function wrt biology. Also not all amino acid chains (polypeptides) will form a functioning protein. If they could then there wouldn't be any specification.
So choosing the specification is making assumptions abou what you think the “design” must be.
Dude, specification doesn't automatically = design. But it does have to be accounted for. And so far a specification of high probability has always led to a designer. So we start with X- the thing being investigated and then try to determine its cause. Specification could very well be due to law/ regularity.Joe
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
12:53 PM
12
12
53
PM
PDT
Because in determining if something is designed, you start from the assumption that it is designed. A straight flush is an interesting example-out of 2.6 million poker hands, there are 40 straight flushes. Which is the specification-getting one of them, or any of them? Or any hand better than your opponent's? Choosing the specification inserts a design assumption-that 1 of the flushes, or all of them are what was "specified." In nature, this is even clearer. A single protein of 20 amino acids is one member of 20^100. But what is the specification? Having that exact sequence=20^100. Having the same function? Some untestably more probable number. Having any function useful to the organism? Maybe something not so improbable at all. So choosing the specification is making assumptions abou what you think the "design" must be.DrREC
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
12:42 PM
12
12
42
PM
PDT
Specification is a tautology, why? And if it is a definition, are all definitions unhelpful in science? Can't we make definitions? Can you see the specification of a straight flush?Collin
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
12:26 PM
12
12
26
PM
PDT
Except specification, which is a tautology, because you define it to be so, and there is almost no attempt to deal with it in probability calculations.DrREC
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
11:53 AM
11
11
53
AM
PDT
"because no ID supporter has ever, as far as I know, argued “X is improbable; therefore X was designed.” "The question remaining is how improbable does a specified thing have to be before we know it was designed? ... That means we set the bar very high, meaning the thing in question will have to be extremely improbable to pass our design test." Intelligent Design Uncensored: An Easy-To-Understand Guide to the Controversy By William A. Dembski, Jonathan Witt p. 67 Am I missing something?DrREC
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
11:50 AM
11
11
50
AM
PDT
1) "The genetic code is .... optimized (as shown by many studies)." a) Which genetic code is optimized? Here are 24 alternative genetic codes that have evolved. Could you tell me which one is optimal? b) This is debatable. "Simulated evolution clearly reveals that the canonical genetic code is far from optimal regarding its optimization." http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2105/12/56 2) "the spacial arrangement of cytosine-thymine-adenine in DNA has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with leucine." Except that it physically imprints the leucine codon on the mRNA, which is recognized by physical base pairing with the tRNA, which in turn is charged by the leucyl-tRNA synthetase, which directly interacts with the anticodon on the tRNA in recognizing it for charging. 3) "And the aminoacyl synthetase that makes the relationship possible has nothing to do with either, either." Except for direct physical contact with the anticodon (or in a few cases another unique part of the tRNA) that is required for amino acid charging- http://www.nature.com/emboj/journal/v19/n10/full/7593059a.html 4) "But in principle, any codon could describe any aminoacid." This contradicts your claim of optimality. Since the last base of many codons is less important (wobble), trying to use, say CCC for Asn would be quite difficult, since Pro is coded for by CCx. There is a lot of contingency built in the system due to the biochemical mechanisms, which limit the "arbitrariness" of the code.DrREC
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
10:22 AM
10
10
22
AM
PDT
Upright, If protein coding were shown to be a result of purely biomechanical processes, would it no longer be symbolic to you?lastyearon
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
10:06 AM
10
10
06
AM
PDT
Yes Collin, the spacial arrangement of cytosine-thymine-adenine in DNA has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with leucine. And the aminoacyl synthetase that makes the relationship possible has nothing to do with either, either. :)Upright BiPed
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
09:27 AM
9
09
27
AM
PDT
Thanks guys. This is definitely what I've wanted to know for a long time: "So, the connection between the codon and the aminoacid is purely symbolic."Collin
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
09:07 AM
9
09
07
AM
PDT
Ken Miller gets debunked in this video... Irreducible Complexity - Why It's Real www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4tpYozY2CMmelvinvines
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
08:59 AM
8
08
59
AM
PDT
Collin: I see that UB has beaten me to the task :) Pelase, read his contribution: it is very good and complete. I may just point out some simple thoughts, to give a first answer to some of your questions: 1) the information in a protein coding gene corresponds to the sequence of aminoacids in the protein. It is, by all means, what Abel calls "prescriptive information". The word "tree" is what Abel calls "descriptive information". Both are subsets of semiotic information. DI outputs a meaning. PI outputs a function. 2) In a sense, the PI in a protein coding gene must be what it is: the sequence of aminoacids must be correctly defined, otherwise the protein will not be the right one. That is not symbolic: it is the real message that has to be transferred, and it has to be that way. But in another sense, the information is wholly symbolic: each aminoacid is described by a codon of 3 nucleotides, and the association between codons and aminoacid (that is the genetic code) is completely arbitrary, and is not due to biochemical reasons. The genetic code is symbolic and redundant, and optimized (as shown by many studies). But in principle, any codon could describe any aminoacid. The important thing is that the same code is used in the writing of the information (the gene), and in the translation apparatus (the 20 aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases, the tRNAs, the rybosome). So, the connection between the codon and the aminoacid is purely symbolic. A difference between computer language and human language is also that computer language is usually context independent, while human language is vastly context dependent. That means that human language is more ambiguous and flexible. In computer language, any instructions means only one thing (unless the language is programmed to be partially context dependent, but the final instructions at machine level are however non ambiguous). In that sense, at least for the protein coding part, DNA behaves like a computer.gpuccio
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
08:43 AM
8
08
43
AM
PDT
Collin, you ask the question of a thinking person. Have you read this. It might be interesting to you.Upright BiPed
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
08:18 AM
8
08
18
AM
PDT
thanks gpuccio, that helps me understand it a little better. I understand how language is information because it is an arbitrary symbolic system. What I mean by that is that the word "tree" has nothing to do with an actual tree. We could use the word "barf." A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. But does DNA "mean" proteins in the same arbitrary way? There is just something more machine-like to DNA that makes it seems less like information than language is. Perhaps it would be better if I know more about computer science because the same problem seems to arise (in my mind) with computer languages. After all, the lowest level of computer languages are called "machine" code or "assembly" code. It seems a lot more like the instructions "fit" the computer like a machine and are less like the abstract symbols of higher level languages. So it seems like the languages are merely special gears that fit the machine in a specific way and cause a specific effect. So no other "code" could replace the "word." In other words, for DNA or machine code, (if I understand correctly) there can be only one word for tree (I'm speaking by analogy). There cannot be another symbol for a certain protein because that symbol would create a different protein. Maybe someone who knows more about DNA and/or computers can help me understand.Collin
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
07:16 AM
7
07
16
AM
PDT
RalphDavidWestfall: Very good indeed! And I still believed that Miller just used mousetraps as tie clips! The guy is really creative, I must say...gpuccio
December 13, 2011
December
12
Dec
13
13
2011
05:56 AM
5
05
56
AM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply