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Larry Moran commits the genetic fallacy

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Professor Larry Moran’s latest post on Sandwalk criticizes Jonathan McLatchie for claiming that Intelligent Design is a legitimate scientific investigation. On the contrary, declares Moran, Intelligent Design is a movement whose members are motivated by a desire to discredit materialism and defend their belief in a Creator. 99% of ID activities, he claims, are attacks on evolution, rather than attempts to scientifically identify which objects were designed. Moran respects McLatchie for his solid grasp of evolutionary biology, but regards him as having “fallen in to the trap of deceiving himself about his true motives.”

But even if Professor Moran’s characterization of the motives of ID proponents were entirely correct, it would be utterly irrelevant. The reason is that science is a methodology – a point highlighted by McLatchie in a recent video on Uncommon Descent. As McClatchie aptly puts it:

“Well, I think Intelligent Design certainly is a science, because it’s based on the standard principles of scientific methodology, with respect to the past: it’s basically an historical abductive method, which is the methodology employed even by Charles Darwin, in his formulation of the theory of evolution by natural selection. Charles Darwin, of course, was influenced by the work of the famed nineteenth century geologist Charles Lyell, in his Principles of Geology, where Charles Lyell basically insisted that … if you want to explain events in the remote past, one should let one’s present experience of cause and effect guide one’s search for the best explanation. So I would argue Intelligent Design is a science by virtue of the fact that it’s … predicated upon historical standard scientific principles.”

Because science is defined by its methodology, any attempt to discredit a field such as Intelligent Design by casting aspersions on the motives of its leading practitioners completely misses the point. No matter what their motives might be, the only question which is germane in this context is: do Intelligent Design researchers follow a proper scientific methodology, and do ID proponents support their arguments by appealing to that methodology? The answer to this question should be obvious to anyone who has read works such as Darwin’s Black Box, The Edge of Evolution, Signature in the Cell and Darwin’s Doubt. Intelligent Design researchers and advocates commonly appeal to empirical probabilities (which can be measured in the laboratory), mathematical calculations (about what chance and/or necessity can accomplish), and abductive reasoning about historical events (such as the Cambrian explosion) which bear the hallmarks of design.

In his endeavor to smear the reputation of Intelligent Design as a discipline, Professor Moran commits the genetic fallacy, which can be defined as the attempt to “discredit or support a claim or an argument because of its origin (genesis) when such an appeal to origins is irrelevant” (Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, article Fallacies). Moran tries to discredit the claims of the ID movement by arguing that these claims have their origin in the religious motivations of their leading proponents. However, the appeal to origins is irrelevant because it is methodology, not motivation, which determines what counts as good or bad science.

When Moran writes that “it’s just a bald-faced lie to claim that Intelligent Design Creationists are motivated by a genuine scientific search for evidence of design,” he is engaging in propaganda, by portraying scientists as dispassionate researchers who are totally devoid of personal motives in their research. This is nonsense. The question of whether life on Earth was designed or not is one which we are all, to some degree, motivated to either accept or reject, on temperamental grounds. Nevertheless, most of us are capable of putting our feelings aside when we have to.

I suspect that many evolutionary biologists are not only skeptical of God’s existence, but actually don’t want there to be a God. In particular, they may feel nauseated by the idea of a Being who produced human beings by a bloody, messy process such as evolution, killing billions and billions of animals in the process. But even if a visceral opposition to the notion of a Deity were the driving force animating their research, it would in no way invalidate that research. The only thing that could undermine these scientists’ work would be poor methodology.

Creationism, on the other hand, makes no attempt to follow a scientific methodology in arriving at its conclusions. In creationism, the conclusions are dictated by the Bible, and what it says trumps any scientific findings which may point to a contrary conclusion. Hence it is highly misleading of Professor Moran to argue that Intelligent Design is no different from creationism, because its main goal is simply “to provide scientific justification for the belief in a creator god.” Intelligent Design, unlike creationism, has no “higher authority” which can dictate the scientific conclusions it reaches.

As for Professor Moran’s claim that Intelligent Design proponents’ focus is primarily aimed at discrediting unguided evolution rather than building a positive case for design, I can only reply that a design inference in ID can only be made after other explanations have been ruled out, so as a matter of necessity, much of what ID researchers do will be negative, and aimed at eliminating conventional explanations, before any positive conclusion can be reached that a given object was designed.

I shall stop here, and throw the discussion open to readers. What do you think?

Comments
Tell you what Sean Samis, you find a natural process that can create a message with specified complexity like this message to you and ID will be abandoned. Good luck.Andre
October 22, 2015
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Sean Samis ignores everything Francis Crick said about specified complexity. Does Sean Samis have an agenda? I'll bet on it.Andre
October 22, 2015
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bFast: “The congressional report bluntly states: The staff investigation has uncovered compelling evidence that Dr. Sternberg’s civil and constitutional rights were violated by Smithsonian officials.” It was not a congressional report, and never read into the official record. It was a staff report prepared for an individual member of Congress, Mark Souder. As for peer review, Sternberg acted as his own editor, saying "As managing editor it was my prerogative to choose the editor who would work directly on the paper, and as I was best qualified among the editors I chose myself." The publisher disagreed, and says this was not proper.Zachriel
October 22, 2015
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Virgil Cain @34:
ID is based on three premises and the inference that follows (DeWolf et al., Darwinism, Design and Public Education, pg. 92): 1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design.
High: How high is significant? What is the metric? “Specified complexity”: How is that distinguished from other forms of complexity? This appears to be circular: calling something “specified” asserts that something “specified” the complexity, therefore something created the complexity. Irreducible complexity: How is it established that some complexity cannot be “reduced”? How is irreducibility distinguished from reducible complexity which has naturally shed redundant aspects that contributed to its origin?
2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity.
This one is entirely dependent on 1). It can be ignored until doubts about 1) are resolved. As above, the term “specified complexity” is self-serving.
3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity.
“...do not suffice to explain”: How exactly is that assertion distinguished from the VERY DIFFERENT statement: “we don’t yet know how natural processes could produce this complexity.” Your assertion cannot be known to be true unless the latter statement has been thoroughly researched, which it has not.
4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems.
This conclusion is dependent on resolving issues with both 1) and 3). Those remain open questions, making intelligent design AT MOST a provisional explanation, and an explanation of last resort which has significant implications (see below).
Those are the core concepts of ID and to falsify Intelligent Design all one has to do is demonstrate that natural selection can produce irreducibly complex biological systems.
To cast doubt on intelligent design, all one has to do is demonstrate the unanswered questions that it is based on; that I’ve just done. ID could be true, but it could also be false. Since it is not directly testable, scientists have no option but to treat it as it is: a last resort. Because ID is an explanation of last resort, that means that the only logical kind of ID is THEISTIC ID. “Non-theistic” ID will be excluded by the same evidence that excludes natural/materialistic origins. Since there is no other option, scientists must continue to test materialistic, natural explanations until there is no reasonable possibility of their verification. We are not at that point yet. Intelligent design creationists seem to want scientists “throw in the towel”, to forfeit the game; it is not strange that scientists refuse to do so. sean s.sean samis
October 22, 2015
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sean samis (32), "Can you cite research by ID researchers (about ID) which has been submitted for publication in peer-reviewed journals and denied publishing just because they didn’t like the results?" See: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/12/the_house_government_reform_su002968.html Catch the links to the congressional report in the article. In summary: "The congressional report bluntly states: The staff investigation has uncovered compelling evidence that Dr. Sternberg's civil and constitutional rights were violated by Smithsonian officials." This shows an example of what happens when a reviewer authorizes an ID supporting paper to get published. Hearing about those rejected is a little harder to come by.bFast
October 22, 2015
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sean samis (33), "I don’t know if that specific statement has been made, but those of us who comment on this site and reject intelligent design creationism (however you choose to name it) get that kind of comment frequently." Um, please check this statement out: "One way is Creationism that depends upon intervention by a divine Creator. That is clearly unscientific because it brings an arbitrary supernatural force into the evolution process." ( thethirdwayofevolution.com ) It is this "you are wrong because your position is dis-permitted" that we IDers rile against. Our position is not considered, but is dismissed on philosophical grounds alone. Are you saying that we IDers dismiss naturalistic evolution on philosophical grounds alone, if so, please provide me with a quotable example.bFast
October 22, 2015
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sean samis- There isn't any blind watchmaker evolutionary research. There aren't any papers that support blind watchmaker evolution. There aren't any models that support unguided evolution. That said there are plenty of papers that support ID- for example all papers on ATP synthase, and the genetic code provide support for ID. ID is based on three premises and the inference that follows (DeWolf et al., Darwinism, Design and Public Education, pg. 92):
1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design.
2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity.
3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity.
4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems.
Those are the core concepts of ID and to falsify Intelligent Design all one has to do is demonstrate that natural selection can produce irreducibly complex biological systems. Virgil Cain
October 22, 2015
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StuartHarris @7:
Do any ID proponents make a genetic fallacy like, “Richard Dawkins is an atheist activist, therefore his arguments in supporting a belief in Darwinism are wrong”?
I don’t know if that specific statement has been made, but those of us who comment on this site and reject intelligent design creationism (however you choose to name it) get that kind of comment frequently. Barry Arrington, kairosfocus, and recently William J Murray have said the like about me. sean s.sean samis
October 22, 2015
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bFast @5: I asked:
Can you cite research by ID researchers (about ID) which has been published in peer-reviewed journals and replicated and verified by others, including non-ID researchers?
You replied:
This sounds like the “you aren’t legitimate because you haven’t been published — you haven’t been published because you are not legitimate” trap. The scientific world is determined to keep ID outside the fold.
In other words, No. Can you cite research by ID researchers (about ID) which has been submitted for publication in peer-reviewed journals and denied publishing just because they didn’t like the results? Here’s something an IDer could do: test the “improbability” argument by calculating how long it should take to spontaneously generate amino acids in the Miller-Urey experiment, then run the experiment under closely controlled and documented conditions an see if the prediction matches the product. Has any IDer done that? sean s.sean samis
October 22, 2015
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A few more comments on the OP: It references
abductive reasoning about historical events (such as the Cambrian explosion) which bear the hallmarks of design.
What, specifically are the “hallmarks of design”? I googled the phrase and discovered a bunch of books; but nowhere are the hallmarks listed or defined. I don’t want to have to buy a book to find this out, and if these are scientifically established hallmarks, why are they only available for a price? I can find the laws of physics on the web for free, I can find laws of chemistry there; heck, I can find the Laws of Robotics there and they are pure fiction. But not the “hallmarks of design”? What actually are the hallmarks of design?
... a design inference in ID can only be made after other explanations have been ruled out, so as a matter of necessity, much of what ID researchers do will be negative, and aimed at eliminating conventional explanations, before any positive conclusion can be reached that a given object was designed.
As necessary as it may be, the problem with this approach is that even after “conventional explanations” have been ruled out, that does not establish design, it merely rules out the “conventional explanations”. Add to that the fact that, to rule out an explanation (conventional or otherwise) requires one to make assumptions about how that explanation works. Ruling out that “explanation” only rules out the assumptions made. That is historically risky. The idea of space as a medium, as a “material” in some very broad sense was proposed to explain the wave nature of light. That explanation was “ruled out” by the famous Michelson–Morley experiments. But then it was revived by Relativity, and given even more importance by Cosmological Expansion. The explanation that complexity can arise naturally is something that is itself so complex that simplifying assumptions are common; “ruling” them out does not rule out the concept, only the assumptions. Establishing design requires ruling out any natural origin of complexity. This requires ruling out every reasonably possible natural route which, given the huge number of possible routes, is a daunting task. This is why scientists find it wiser to focus on finding the routes that do work instead of trying to make broad generalizations along the lines of “you can’t get here from there”. Unless there is POSITIVE research that IDers can do, ID will remain at most provisional, an explanation of last resort; Without positive research, it can NEVER be a “best” explanation sean s.sean samis
October 22, 2015
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SB @ 28: Larry is just spouting the same contradictory line they've taken for decades now: 1. ID is not science because it is not falsifiable. 2. And not only that; it has been falsified.Barry Arrington
October 21, 2015
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To echo what I already stated in post 17, it is the height of hypocrisy for Dr. Moran to claim that ID advocates operate primarily from Theistic biases when the fact of the matter is that, since Darwinism has no real time empirical evidence to back up its claims, Darwinism itself would collapse as a theory in science without the faulty Theistic biases that underpin the claims made by its proponents. To further highlight the 'peer reviewed' fact that Darwinism is heavily reliant on bad theological argumentation, (see post 17 starting 1/3 of the way down the post for references), here are a few more examples of Darwinian theology in action: In this following video Dr. William Lane Craig is surprised to find that evolutionary biologist Dr. Ayala uses the theological argument of ‘bad design’ to support Darwinian evolution and invites him to present empirical evidence, any positive evidence at all, that Darwinian evolution can do what he claims it can:
Refuting The Myth Of 'Bad Design' vs. Intelligent Design - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIzdieauxZg
At about the 55:00 minute mark in the following video, Phillip Johnson sums up his, in my opinion, excellent lecture by noting that the refutation of his book, 'Darwin On Trial', in the Journal Nature, the most prestigious science journal in the world, was a theological argument about what God would and would not do and therefore Darwinism must be true, and the critique from Nature was not a refutation based on any substantiating scientific evidence for Darwinism that one would expect to be brought forth in such a prestigious venue:
Darwinism On Trial (Phillip E. Johnson) – lecture video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwj9h9Zx6Mw
In fact, in the twisted world of Darwinian reasoning, Dr. John Avise used the fact that mutations are overwhelmingly detrimental, which is actually a VERY powerful scientific argument against Darwinian evolution, as a theological argument for Darwinism since, apparently according to Darwinian theology, God would never allow such things as detrimental mutations to happen:
It Is Unfathomable That a Loving Higher Intelligence Created the Species – Cornelius Hunter – June 2012 Excerpt: “Approximately 0.1% of humans who survive to birth carry a duplicon-related disability, meaning that several million people worldwide currently are afflicted by this particular subcategory of inborn metabolic errors. Many more afflicted individuals probably die in utero before their conditions are diagnosed. Clearly, humanity bears a substantial health burden from duplicon-mediated genomic malfunctions. This inescapable empirical truth is as understandable in the light of mechanistic genetic operations as it is unfathomable as the act of a loving higher intelligence. [112]” – Dr. John Avise – “Inside The Human Genome: A Case For Non-Intelligent Design” (Dr. Cornelius Hunter goes on to comment) "There you have it. Evil exists and a loving higher intelligence wouldn’t have done it that way." – http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/06/awesome-power-behind-evolution-it-is.html “Another compilation of gene lesions responsible for inherited diseases is the web-based Human Gene Mutation Database (HGMD). Recent versions of HGMD describe more than 75,000 different disease causing mutations identified to date in Homo-sapiens.” John C. Avise - Inside the Human Genome: A Case for Non-Intelligent Design – Pg. 57
I went to the mutation database website cited by John Avise and found this updated number:
Mutation total (as of June 27, 2015) - 166,768 disease causing mutations http://www.hgmd.cf.ac.uk/ac/
Contrary to what Dr. Avise and other Darwinists may believe, such an overwhelming rate of detrimental mutations is NOT a point of scientific evidence in favor of Darwinism! In fact, such an overwhelming rate of detrimental mutations is a very powerful scientific argument against Darwinian claims. That this fact would even have to be pointed out to Darwinists is a sad testimony to how warped Darwinian thinking, i.e. theology, truly is in regards to the actual science at hand. Of supplemental note, it is interesting to note the negative form of argumentation that Darwinism itself takes. Self evident 'Design' was overwhelmingly accepted as true during Darwin's day. In fact, the claim of Darwin, and of his modern day followers, is that unguided material processes can produce the 'appearance of design' in living organisms. Dr. Behe quotes Richard Dawkins in the following video, from page 1 of one of Dawkins's book "The Blind Watchmaker', as saying 'biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose':
Michael Behe - Life Reeks Of Design - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdh-YcNYThY "Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." Richard Dawkins - The Blind Watchmaker (1996) p.1
Contrary to what Dawkins, Moran, and other Darwinian atheists may believe, this was, and is, clearly a negative form of argument against design. Here are several more quotes from Darwinists along the same line of negative argumentation against the 'appearance of design'
"The real core of Darwinism,, is the theory of natural selection. This theory is so important for Darwinian because it permits the explanation of adaption, the 'design' of the natural theologian, by natural means." Ernst Mayr "design without a designer" Francisco Ayala "Organisms appear as if they had been designed to perform in an astonishingly efficient way, and the human mind therefore finds it hard to accept that there need be no Designer to achieve this" Francis Crick - What Mad Pursuit - p. 30 living organisms "appear to have been carefully and artfully designed" Lewontin "The appearance of purposefulness is pervasive in nature." George Gaylord Simpson
i.e. The main purpose of Darwinian evolution in the beginning, and always has been, to 'explain away' the overwhelming 'appearance of design' in life! Thus the next time someone tries to tell you that Intelligent Design is just a negative argument against evolution (as Moran is currently trying to do), remind them that it is, in fact, evolution which started out as, and still is, a negative argument against the overwhelming 'appearance of design' which is pervasive in nature. Indeed the 'appearance of design' in life, due to advances in our understanding of the cell, is orders of magnitude more apparent than it was in Darwin's day, or even than it was just a few short decades ago. For one small instance of the astonishing complexity, i.e. design, currently being discovered in life, the protein making machine, i.e. the Ribosome, of the cell is found to operate very similar to a CPU of an electronic computer:
Dichotomy in the definition of prescriptive information suggests both prescribed data and prescribed algorithms: biosemiotics applications in genomic systems - 2012 David J D’Onofrio1*, David L Abel2* and Donald E Johnson3 Excerpt: The DNA polynucleotide molecule consists of a linear sequence of nucleotides, each representing a biological placeholder of adenine (A), cytosine (C), thymine (T) and guanine (G). This quaternary system is analogous to the base two binary scheme native to computational systems. As such, the polynucleotide sequence represents the lowest level of coded information expressed as a form of machine code. Since machine code (and/or micro code) is the lowest form of compiled computer programs, it represents the most primitive level of programming language.,,, An operational analysis of the ribosome has revealed that this molecular machine with all of its parts follows an order of operations to produce a protein product. This order of operations has been detailed in a step-by-step process that has been observed to be self-executable. The ribosome operation has been proposed to be algorithmic (Ralgorithm) because it has been shown to contain a step-by-step process flow allowing for decision control, iterative branching and halting capability. The R-algorithm contains logical structures of linear sequencing, branch and conditional control. All of these features at a minimum meet the definition of an algorithm and when combined with the data from the mRNA, satisfy the rule that Algorithm = data + control. Remembering that mere constraints cannot serve as bona fide formal controls, we therefore conclude that the ribosome is a physical instantiation of an algorithm.,,, The correlation between linguistic properties examined and implemented using Automata theory give us a formalistic tool to study the language and grammar of biological systems in a similar manner to how we study computational cybernetic systems. These examples define a dichotomy in the definition of Prescriptive Information. We therefore suggest that the term Prescriptive Information (PI) be subdivided into two categories: 1) Prescriptive data and 2) Prescribed (executing) algorithm. It is interesting to note that the CPU of an electronic computer is an instance of a prescriptive algorithm instantiated into an electronic circuit, whereas the software under execution is read and processed by the CPU to prescribe the program’s desired output. Both hardware and software are prescriptive. http://www.tbiomed.com/content/pdf/1742-4682-9-8.pdf
As well, the arrangement of ribosomes within the cell is nothing less than stunning
Endoplasmic Reticulum: Scientists Image 'Parking Garage' Helix Structure in Protein-Making Factory - July 2013 Excerpt: The endoplasmic reticulum (ER) is the protein-making factory within cells consisting of tightly stacked sheets of membrane studded with the molecules (ribosome machines) that make proteins. In a study published July 18th by Cell Press in the journal Cell, researchers have refined a new microscopy imaging method to visualize exactly how the ER sheets are stacked, revealing that the 3D structure of the sheets resembles a parking garage with helical ramps connecting the different levels. This structure allows for the dense packing of ER sheets, maximizing the amount of space available for protein synthesis within the small confines of a cell. "The geometry of the ER is so complex that its details have never been fully described, even now, 60 years after its discovery," says study author Mark Terasaki of the University of Connecticut Health Center. "Our findings are likely to lead to new insights into the functioning of this important organelle.",,, ,, this "parking garage" structure optimizes the dense packing of ER sheets and thus maximizes the number of protein-synthesizing molecules called ribosomes within the restricted space of a cell. When a cell needs to secrete more proteins, it can reduce the distances between sheets to pack even more membrane into the same space. Think of it as a parking garage that can add more levels as it gets full.,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130718130617.htm
Seeing as Darwinists have no clue, much less any empirical evidence showing, how such fantastic integrated complexity could have possibly come about by unguided material processes, then clearly it is time for biological science to rightly return to the default assumption of Design that it had originally started out with prior to the negative impact that Darwin's book had on biological science. i.e. the 'appearance of design' is a failed negative argument!bornagain
October 21, 2015
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Moran refutes himself:
ID proponents do try to use scientific methodology to to answer questions about biology. They just don't do it very well and their answers are wrong.
First, Moran says that ID doesn't do science. Then, when he is called on it, he says ID does do science--but not very well. Does Moran know anything about logic and the law of non-contradiction? It appears not.StephenB
October 21, 2015
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Hi everyone, I see that Larry Moran has responded to me in a new post at http://sandwalk.blogspot.jp/2015/10/vincent-torley-and-genetic-fallacy.html . Here's what I wrote in reply, in a comment to his post: Hi Professor Moran, You write: "ID proponents can't argue that evolutionary biologists are motivated by a belief in materialism and atheism then turn around and accuse me of committing the genetic fallacy." I agree. I would also agree that when members of the ID movement attack evolution because it's atheistic and materialistic, their arguments have no scientific merit, regardless of whatever other merits they might have. You also write: "Every member of your movement is a creationist and they were creationists BEFORE they ever heard of using intelligent design to try and make their beliefs look scientific.1 They reached the conclusion first—creator gods exist—and then they tried to construct a rationalization based on bad science." This is nonsense. Mike Behe attended a parochial (Catholic) school where he was taught that evolution was simply God's way of making living things. He has no theological axe to grind against Darwinism. Richard Sternberg (who prefers to describe himself as a Pythagorean rather than as an Intelligent Design advocate) is a Catholic who attends Mass, but he adds: "I would call myself a believer with a lot of questions, about everything. I'm in the postmodern predicament." Anthony Flew, the most famous atheist of the 20th century (whose work I studied while doing philosophy at university) was converted to belief in an Aristotelian God (but not a personal Deity, let alone the God of the Bible), by the arguments of "American [intelligent] design theorists" in 2004. And what about atheist Fred Hoyle, who was so impressed by the evidence of carbon's fine-tuning that he wrote: "A commonsense interpretation of the facts suggests a super-intellect has monkeyed with physics as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature"? Finally, even you acknowledge that ID advocate David Berlinski is an agnostic. You reproach me for failing to mention your acknowledgement that "some of the things done under the umbrella of ID are science (but bad science)," but you temper that compliment by adding that "99% of ID activities are attacks on evolution," rather than legitimate science. In my book, someone who says that Intelligent Design is 1% science is basically no different from someone who says it isn't science at all. In any case, if you're going to say that books such as "Darwin’s Black Box", "The Edge of Evolution", "Signature in the Cell" and "Darwin’s Doubt" aren't science, then here's a question for you: why were they all reviewed in numerous science journals? You make a big to-do about the Wedge Document for its declared aim of overthrowing scientific materialism, but I can name no less than 21 Nobel scientists who vocally opposed materialism, from Pierre Curie to John Eccles: See http://www.angelfire.com/linux/vjtorley/zackfour.html . Many of these scientists were also human exceptionalists. Finally, if you concede that "ID proponents do try to use scientific methodology to to answer questions about biology" then you cannot consistently maintain that Intelligent Design is a movement rather than a scientific discipline. END of commentvjtorley
October 21, 2015
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bFast and bornagain- They have an innate ability to be inane. They may well be insane. ;)Virgil Cain
October 21, 2015
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Sometimes, I wonder, whether Robert Brainless and Larry Moron went to the same LD school. After reading their posts, I have very little doubt. Please correct me if I'm wrong.....J-Mac
October 21, 2015
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Why don’t you start out by explaining how intelligence creates non-trivial information, then point out how biological Darwinism does not fit that explanation. Please be specific.
Let me give you an example: Intelligence creating non-trivial information is to biological Darwinism what making a Hollywood movie is to watching the movie with some image noise from a bad TV reception. SebestyenSebestyen
October 21, 2015
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BA77, thanks for the vocabulary lesson. I looked at this word inane, and thought it might be a typo -- you know, mutation. 'Seemed to be a simple deletion error from insane. I checked it out however, turns out it is a truly appropriate term for the circumstances. 'Seems that even apparent simple mutations can be intelligently designed events.bFast
October 21, 2015
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Popperian, exhibit A, your own post! and no I will not answer your idiocy any further edit: Thanks bFast, did not see your post before I posted, or else I would not have bothered to answer Pop's usual inanity.bornagain
October 21, 2015
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Popperian, "Why don’t you start out by explaining how intelligence creates non-trivial information" Um, the sentence, "Why don’t you start out by explaining how intelligence creates non-trivial information" contains non-trivial information. Please explain what force of nature produced it.bFast
October 21, 2015
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Larry Moran couldn't stand to be corrected so he had to lie and then ban me. Life is good...Virgil Cain
October 21, 2015
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BA77
Moreover, as far as inductive reasoning is concerned, ID is, without question, far more ‘complete’ in its reasoning from the evidence, and in its conclusion that only intelligence can produce non-trivial information, since intelligence has, in fact, been the ONLY cause ever observed to produce non-trivial information:
Why don't you start out by explaining how intelligence creates non-trivial information, then point out how biological Darwinism does not fit that explanation. Please be specific.Popperian
October 21, 2015
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Virgil Cain, "Earth to Larry Moran- ID would fade away if you could actually step up and provide evidence for the claims made by evolutionism, namely that the diversity of life and life itself can be accounted for by purely materialistic processes. IOW find some support for your position and stop whining." YES! YES! But Larry's like, "But I solved it, neutral theory explains it all. If you only understood neutral theory, you'ld know that materialistic processes are tooootally adequate."bFast
October 21, 2015
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Since ID uses the same method of science that Charles Darwin himself used, then if ID is not a proper method of science then neither is Darwinism.
Stephen Meyer – What is the Scientific Basis Of Intelligent Design? (the same scientific basis as Charles Darwin himself used, i.e. 'presently acting cause known to produce the effect in question', i.e. abductive reasoning) – video (1:45 minute mark) https://youtu.be/u8CE70cCDc8?t=104 While cogent inductive reasoning requires that the evidence that might shed light on the subject be fairly complete, whether positive or negative, abductive reasoning is characterized by lack of completeness, either in the evidence, or in the explanation, or both.
Moreover, as far as inductive reasoning is concerned, ID is, without question, far more 'complete' in its reasoning from the evidence, and in its conclusion that only intelligence can produce non-trivial information, since intelligence has, in fact, been the ONLY cause ever observed to produce non-trivial information:
Information Enigma - (Where did the information come from) - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA-FcnLsF1g
Moreover, it is the height of hypocrisy for Dr. Moran to claim that ID advocates operate primarily from Theistic biases when the fact of the matter is that, since Darwinism has no real time empirical evidence to back up its claims, Darwinism itself would collapse as a theory in science without its faulty Theistic biases that underpin the claims made by its proponents. Darwinism, much contrary to what Dr. Moran and other Darwinists may want to believe, is one of the most theologically entangled sciences going:
Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species - May 2011 Excerpt: The Origin supplies abundant evidence of theology in action; as Dilley observes: I have argued that, in the first edition of the Origin, Darwin drew upon at least the following positiva theological claims in his case for descent with modification (and against special creation): 1. Human beings are not justified in believing that God creates in ways analogous to the intellectual powers of the human mind. 2. A God who is free to create as He wishes would create new biological limbs de novo rather than from a common pattern. 3. A respectable deity would create biological structures in accord with a human conception of the 'simplest mode' to accomplish the functions of these structures. 4. God would only create the minimum structure required for a given part's function. 5. God does not provide false empirical information about the origins of organisms. 6. God impressed the laws of nature on matter. 7. God directly created the first 'primordial' life. 8. God did not perform miracles within organic history subsequent to the creation of the first life. 9. A 'distant' God is not morally culpable for natural pain and suffering. 10. The God of special creation, who allegedly performed miracles in organic history, is not plausible given the presence of natural pain and suffering. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html Charles Darwin's use of theology in the Origin of Species - STEPHEN DILLEY Abstract This essay examines Darwin's positiva (or positive) use of theology in the first edition of the Origin of Species in three steps. First, the essay analyses the Origin's theological language about God's accessibility, honesty, methods of creating, relationship to natural laws and lack of responsibility for natural suffering; the essay contends that Darwin utilized positiva theology in order to help justify (and inform) descent with modification and to attack special creation. Second, the essay offers critical analysis of this theology, drawing in part on Darwin's mature ruminations to suggest that, from an epistemic point of view, the Origin's positiva theology manifests several internal tensions. Finally, the essay reflects on the relative epistemic importance of positiva theology in the Origin's overall case for evolution. The essay concludes that this theology served as a handmaiden and accomplice to Darwin's science. http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=376799F09F9D3CC8C2E7500BACBFC75F.journals?aid=8499239&fileId=S000708741100032X Methodological Naturalism: A Rule That No One Needs or Obeys - Paul Nelson - September 22, 2014 Excerpt: It is a little-remarked but nonetheless deeply significant irony that evolutionary biology is the most theologically entangled science going. Open a book like Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution is True (2009) or John Avise's Inside the Human Genome (2010), and the theology leaps off the page. A wise creator, say Coyne, Avise, and many other evolutionary biologists, would not have made this or that structure; therefore, the structure evolved by undirected processes. Coyne and Avise, like many other evolutionary theorists going back to Darwin himself, make numerous "God-wouldn't-have-done-it-that-way" arguments, thus predicating their arguments for the creative power of natural selection and random mutation on implicit theological assumptions about the character of God and what such an agent (if He existed) would or would not be likely to do.,,, ,,,with respect to one of the most famous texts in 20th-century biology, Theodosius Dobzhansky's essay "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution" (1973). Although its title is widely cited as an aphorism, the text of Dobzhansky's essay is rarely read. It is, in fact, a theological treatise. As Dilley (2013, p. 774) observes: "Strikingly, all seven of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. In fact, without God-talk, the geneticist's arguments for evolution are logically invalid. In short, theology is essential to Dobzhansky's arguments.",, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/methodological_1089971.html Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of theology? - Dilley S. - 2013 Abstract This essay analyzes Theodosius Dobzhansky's famous article, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution," in which he presents some of his best arguments for evolution. I contend that all of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon sectarian claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. Moreover, Dobzhansky's theology manifests several tensions, both in the epistemic justification of his theological claims and in their collective coherence. I note that other prominent biologists--such as Mayr, Dawkins, Eldredge, Ayala, de Beer, Futuyma, and Gould--also use theology-laden arguments. I recommend increased analysis of the justification, complexity, and coherence of this theology. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23890740
Of supplemental note: The reason why Darwinism 'gets away' with being considered a science, all the while being very dependent on its faulty theological presumptions, is that in order to 'do science' in the first place, Theology must be assumed on some level. In other words, it is simply impossible to do science without assuming, on some level, that the universe is rational in its basis, i.e. intelligible, and that we have rational minds that are able to grasp that underlying rationality, intelligibility, of the universe. In other words, even atheists themselves cannot possibly rid themselves of 'design thinking' if they want to practice science properly:
Design Thinking Is Hardwired in the Human Brain. How Come? - October 17, 2012 Excerpt: "Even Professional Scientists Are Compelled to See Purpose in Nature, Psychologists Find." The article describes a test by Boston University's psychology department, in which researchers found that "despite years of scientific training, even professional chemists, geologists, and physicists from major universities such as Harvard, MIT, and Yale cannot escape a deep-seated belief that natural phenomena exist for a purpose" ,,, Most interesting, though, are the questions begged by this research. One is whether it is even possible to purge teleology from explanation. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/design_thinking065381.html
Simply put, theological presuppositions permeate scientific thought. For a brief overview of how deep Theological thinking goes in science, here is a neat quote from William Murray (a man who has a gift for reducing very complex subjects into easy to understand sentences):
"virtually all of science proceeds as if ID is true – it seeks elegant and efficient models; it reverse engineers biological systems; it describes evolution in teleological terms; it refers to natural forces and laws as if there is some kind of prescriptive agency guiding matter and energy; it assumes that the nature of the universe and human comprehensive capacity have some sort of truthful, factual correspondence." William J Murray
bornagain
October 21, 2015
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Too funny- Moran seems to be as scientifically illiterate as the average evo. He doesn't understand that science mandates that all design inferences pass the tests laid down by Newton, Occam and parsimony. Heck the explanatory filter even lays it out for him, step-by-step! Earth to Larry Moran- ID would fade away if you could actually step up and provide evidence for the claims made by evolutionism, namely that the diversity of life and life itself can be accounted for by purely materialistic processes. IOW find some support for your position and stop whining.Virgil Cain
October 21, 2015
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Likewise REW, we can safely ignore the work of many scientists since their atheistic worldview prevents them from doing research that might impact their assumptions. This is likely why there is such a dearth of revolutionary ideas and discoveries in biology. We've got the likes of Coyne, Moran, PZMyers, et al holding the keys. And they are not anytime soon gonna do any research that would potentially upset the no-intelligence-allowed meme they hold so dear. Heck, they have probably melted down the keys and boobytrapped their cyber labs (i assume their real labs were packed up ages ago) just in case. Ah, but you know what they say about revolutions. Just need to wait for father time to make the requisite personnel changes.
The Genetic fallacy may be useful as a logical principle but its useless in any real world discussion. The genetic fallacy would be relevant in a situation where we had an almost infinite amount of time to research and assess a truth claim ourselves. Then the origin of that claim wouldn’t matter. But our time is always limited so we need to assess the truth claim in terms of the reliability of the sources of that claim and we need to weigh it all against our present understanding of the world. When Moran says ‘don’t believe McLatchie or the IDers because they have a religious bias’ he’s essentially saying you can ignore their potential bias and spend the next 10 years researching evolution and ID and come to your own conclusion or you can take a shortcut and realize that IDers have a strong religious bias which effects how they interpret scientific info. We know that religious bias will do this- people with PhDs in geology from Harvard will claim the earth is 10,000 years old. Of course, we cant stop there. We need to asses whether Moran himself has a bias in how he interprets scientific info and how he assesses bias in others.
Steve
October 21, 2015
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Exceelent case that methodolgy trumps any previous motivations. In the movie MY COUSIN VINNEY it doesn't matter that the lawyer was related and knew the boys were innocent. he proved it by methodology of evidence gathering. The fact that mankind believes in God/genesis is not a reason to be suspicious or insistent that the methodology was compromised. Its irrelevant. Truly/ besides I say evolutionists and others have a previous conviction the bible is not true, evolution is true, maybe God is not true. Yet I don't know it compromises research. Yet we are all influenced by bias. Larry Moran doesn't say no ID folks do science, just bad or wrong science, but still its mostly motivated by conclusions made already. Not accurate. PLUS ID, this video guys, say YEC is motivated by conclusions. NO> YEC does science also in its criticisms of the other side. JUst in our assertions do we have a witness. Everybody watch it.Robert Byers
October 21, 2015
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Popperian @9:
Namely, Dembiski’s method of detection has been severely criticized in the very field he appeals to: Information theory and computer science.
Severely criticized in what sense? In the same sense that ID is vilified by people who cannot countenance any possibility of real design in the universe? Name-calling, vague complaints, failure to understand Dembski's argument or to address the real issues . . . in that sense? Or do you mean to say that someone has actually demonstrated that the concept of design detection by complex specified information is unsound? I am certainly not aware of any such demonstration. Apparently the folks at SETI, archaeologists, forensic scientists and other investigators are also unaware of such a demonstration. We would all very much like to know. Or maybe you are simply referring to some quibble about terminology, or minor skirmishes around the edges, or a general claim (on wholly unwarranted bases) that design detection, while perfectly fine in other realms, is unacceptable in biology? "Severely criticized" by people who don't, or won't, understand the issues? Sure. We deal with that every day.Eric Anderson
October 20, 2015
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I had to look up "genetic fallacy". At first I thought it meant "liars gene". But it turns out it is "gene" as in Genesis. Learn something new every day. Or week, whatever. Let's all say a prayer for University Students who are learning TONS every day. Extra prayers for Dr. Larry's students.ppolish
October 20, 2015
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The Genetic fallacy may be useful as a logical principle but its useless in any real world discussion. The genetic fallacy would be relevant in a situation where we had an almost infinite amount of time to research and assess a truth claim ourselves. Then the origin of that claim wouldn't matter. But our time is always limited so we need to assess the truth claim in terms of the reliability of the sources of that claim and we need to weigh it all against our present understanding of the world. When Moran says 'don't believe McLatchie or the IDers because they have a religious bias' he's essentially saying you can ignore their potential bias and spend the next 10 years researching evolution and ID and come to your own conclusion or you can take a shortcut and realize that IDers have a strong religious bias which effects how they interpret scientific info. We know that religious bias will do this- people with PhDs in geology from Harvard will claim the earth is 10,000 years old. Of course, we cant stop there. We need to asses whether Moran himself has a bias in how he interprets scientific info and how he assesses bias in others.REW
October 20, 2015
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