Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Letter to thinking Christians (and other theists)

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Writing letters to a broad public is all the rage nowadays, so I thought I would try my hand at it too:

Dear thinking Christians/theists/non-materialists,

Some people have expressed deep concern over the sudden surge in anti-God/anti-spiritual activists, opposed to traditional spiritualities.

Yes, it is a good idea to keep an eye on these anti-spiritual movements, but – based on decades of watching social trends and covering controversies – I do not think that these people should be our main concern. They are acting out of desperation. The materialism they espouse is simply not confirmed by evidence and not working in society either. Worse, even the most generous and favorable media attention has not made them look or sound attractive. More publicity will only deepen the hole they are digging themselves into.

In my experience, a far more serious concern is the gutting of a spiritual tradition from within. Along those lines, be on the lookout for the following trends, whether in your church mosque, synagogue, or whatever:

– Evolutionary psychology In some liberal Christian settings, I have noticed a growing interest in “evolutionary psychology” (God, it turns out, is that buzz in our genes that cause us to leave viable offspring.

Yeah really. All theistic traditions of which I am aware teach that people believe in God because God exists and reveals himself to them. The only inheritance they need is a mind capable of taking in the idea of God at some level. By contrast, evolutionary psychology argues that your experience is no proof of a transcendent reality. You believe what you do because of your genes.

Now, how anyone could fail to see the implicit atheism in such a perspective is quite beyond me, but happily, it isn’t my business to figure that unhappy conundrum out. Only to warn that some fall for this stuff.

Evisceration of actual belief, accompanied by protests of sincerity. For example, famous mid-twentieth-century Darwinist Theodosius Dobzhansky is often fronted as a Christian. Here’s the reality. His convictions had nothing to do with Christianity. In the present day, a prolific contributor to the American Scientific Affiliation‘s discussion site on these issues, who is a Lutheran, writes,

I long ago made peace with the idea that God could use evolution to form our physical bodies. What was new to me, from the atheists’ perspective, was the idea that the intangible aspects of us, like feelings, emotions, consciousness, etc. (which I had equated with the God-given, eternal soul) could also arise (ala emergent properties) naturally. Thus, I’ve acquired a new-found interest in the fields of pyschology, neurology, and computer science as I try to reconceptualize the idea of a “soul”.

At least in the vast majority of cases God works “in, with & under” the activities of creatures so that we don’t see God at work directly. Luther called the created things through which God acts “the masks of our Lord God, behind which He wants to remain concealed and do all things.” This means, I think, that we shouldn’t be surprised if, among other things, human beings don’t contain any special “supernatural” component.

The question is not whether such beliefs – or persons – are good or bad, or sincere or otherwise. What you need to ask is a much simpler and entirely determinable question: Is this stuff compatible with your spiritual tradition? If not, recognize the situation for what it is: undermining from within.

(Note:  A reader has kindly advised that in the first paragraph above, the quoted author (George Murphy) is quoting someone else. I didn’t notice an attribution. My focus, however, is the readiness with which the fans of Christian Darwinism flirt with dispensing with a supernatural component in the human being. I am afraid that I have never heard of an orthodox theology of the cross (an interest of Murphy’s) that denies humans a supernatural component. That is, however, a pillar of orthodox Darwinism. I think that what Murphy, his quotee, and many on the ASA list from which this sample was taken clearly demonstrate is the slow rot of non-materialist understanding of life that any long and close embrace of Darwinism brings about. Mind you, I expect them to want to discuss just about anything else.)

Random embrace of materialism. The American Episcopal Church was so anxious to sell out to materialism that it insisted on a materialist origin (“emergence”) for life, even though no one knows how life originated. Most Anglican (Episcopal) bishops worldwide consider the failing American denomination heretical for unrelated reasons – but they might wish to consider this incident as a straw in the wind. – The American Episcopal Church was so to sell out to materialism that it insisted on a materialist (“emergence”) for life, even though knows how life originated. Most Anglican (Episcopal) bishops worldwide consider the American denomination for unrelated reasons – but they might wish to consider this incident as a straw in the wind.(Oh yes, did I forget to mention? Materialism will diminish and eventually close your worship centre. Do you love God? Your worship centre? Write that down, as a possible reason not to consider materialism, or its creation story, Darwinism.)

– The American Episcopal Church was so to sell out to materialism that it insisted on a materialist (“emergence”) for life, even though knows how life originated. Most Anglican (Episcopal) bishops worldwide consider the American denomination for unrelated reasons – but they might wish to consider this incident as a straw in the wind.(Oh yes, did I forget to mention? Materialism will diminish and eventually close your worship centre. Do you love God? Your worship centre? Write that down, as a possible reason not to consider materialism, or its creation story, Darwinism.)- “Fideism”, evacuated of content. That is, loud protests of traditional belief, held simply as an irrational conviction, unrelated to the person’s assumptions about how the universe really works. Beliefs are supposed to sound like foolishness; that’s what makes them faithful.

All of these trends are of far more significance than doctrinaire atheism in undermining a spiritual tradition. Here are some suggestions for spotting such trends at work:

Key changes in the information that is considered relevant when addressing controversial issues: Suppose, for example, your tradition is wrestling with questions around homosexuality. You suddenly find yourself in a discussion about whether homosexuality contributes to “evolutionary fitness” or whether it is “natural”, “innate,” or whatever.

Well, stop the discussion right there. Yes, right there . Ask, how did we get here? In the Christian tradition, for example, a tendency to sin is regarded as innate, without restriction as to type of sin. And sin – as defined in Scripture – is to be rejected, whether or not the behaviour is considered “natural” or the outcome is “evolutionarily fit.” If you cannot discuss controversial questions in that light, you are no longer in the Christian tradition. And Darwinism is one way of getting right outside the Christian tradition very quickly.

(Note: For your own peace of mind, try to avoid acting astonished at the number of grey eminences that have bobbled above a pew for some fifty or sixty years without developing a Christian mind. They are perfectly happy to make major decisions without any such mind. It’s mostly not even their fault. For decades, clergy of many denominations have functioned as therapists and social workers, not spiritual directors – and the results show.)

Subtle appeals to turn your faith into mere fideism: Watch out for platitudes like “all truth is God’s truth.” While that’s correct, as far as it goes, the mantras of materialism are not truths of any sort and should not be godfathered as “God’s truths,” kicking actual spiritual truths into an irrelevant attic. Materialism and Darwinism can be rejected outright with no loss.

Here’s another dangerous platitude: “Don’t get the Rock of Ages mixed up with the age of the rocks.” Oh? Why not? Either the Rock of Ages is responsible for the age of the rocks or he isn’t. Can you see the subtle appeal here to replace your Christian worldview with a materialist worldview when considering such questions as the origin of the universe, the earth, or life?

Oh and let’s not forget, “The Bible isn’t a science textbook.” Well, anyone who gets around to reading the Bible much will notice that it is a collection of 66 books (more if you are a Catholic and count the Apocrypha), written in a variety of genres on a variety of subjects, with the unifying theme of the relationship between God and people. So there is no question of a science textbook, or a textbook of any kind. But … where there is a conflict between the view of man portrayed in the Bible and similar scriptures and a view that originates in a materialist system like evolutionary psychology, which view should prevail at your worship centre?

Finally, recognize that many Western Christian academics are co-dependent with materialism – it’s how many of them have managed to stay where they are in systems dominated by materialists. They have seen what happened to, for example, Rick Sternberg, Carolyn Crocker, Nancy Bryson, Frank Beckwith, etc., so they know the rules: As long as they

1) avoid raising any serious problems with any materialist system, and

2) attack or disparage anyone who is more forthright against materialism than they are,

they are themselves left alone – for now. At any rate, to the extent that they have placed their bets of materialism and made all sorts of sacrifices for materialism for years, they need the materialist system to prevail.

And it won’t be their fault if it doesn’t.

If that is what some call peace, no wonder increasing numbers are for war. That is a key reason why there is an intelligent design controversy. And there will soon be more than one controversy. New fronts are opening up as people in various disciplines question materialism.

Anyway, materialist undermining at your worship centre can be detected by careful listening and observation. Be ready to ask the right questions at the right times. If you wait too long, it may be far advanced and therefore harder to stop.

Cheers,

Denyse O’Leary

Comments
dopderbeck, I don't think that most of us here believe that God couldn't work through secondary causes. It is just the scientific evidence points elsewhere. Don't you understand that? It is not like we are clueless on this and haven't considered it. What you believe are secondary causes, are postulated by Darwinists as naturalistic causes with no direction and originating in chance. And they are winning the day. They only let you play in their arena as long as you kowtow to the Darwinist worldview. You have offered earth and water to the materialists so that you can say what you want in your own playgrounds but don't dare cross them on the bigger world. If you could support your secondary cause scenario we would be all ears. But it is based on faith, just as is the Darwinists and YEC positions. Some of us prefer to examine the evidence and assume there is no conflict with religion and science and let the implications of each lead where they must. There would be no one happier than myself to find that God operated through secondary causes. That is what I believed till I started to read about the issues.jerry
April 15, 2007
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Just to clarify something that I now realize is not clear from my responses above: in the portion of the ASA list post that Denyse quotes, the paragraph numbered "1" starting with: "I long ago made peace with the idea that God could use evolution to form our physical bodies" did not originate with George Murphy, the "prolific commentator" Denyse mentions. The response paragraph starting with "at least in the vast majority of cases" is George's. The paragraph to which George was responding was part of a much longer post by another person, who also happens to be a Lutheran, but who was brand-new to the ASA list and who stopped in to ask some questions about some faith issues with which she was struggling. George and several others, including myself as I noted above, responded. Denyse didn't. BTW, Denyse, given that you're a Catholic, I'm curious why you're so critical of George's brief discussion of secondary causes. It's vintage Aquinas, after all, and it appears that Pope Benedict is following that same line of thought with regard to evolution, as are many other Catholic intellectuals, including Richard John Neuhaus (did you see the most recent First Things?). Are Aquinas, Neuhaus, and the Pope also complicit in materialist chicanery because they also recognize that evolutionary change of some sort might happen through secondary causes?dopderbeck
April 15, 2007
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Darn it, I've been trying to put up a link to the ASA list with the actual thread, as well as the text of the response I supplied to the original ASA discussion, but I think the links are causing it to get caught up as spam. Here is the text of my original response, without links. There were other good responses as well:
Hi Christine. I think lots of people whom you'll meet here can relate to your journey -- a journey that will not stop this side of heaven! If you're like me at all, what helps most in these times of doubt is not so much "answers" but "perspectives" -- ways of thinking about hard questions rather than pat responses. Here are a few books I've found helpful. These are just my quirky selections: On doubt generally: Alister McGrath, "Doubting: Growing Through the Uncertainties of Faith" -- doubt is not necessarily the enemy of faith! On evolutionary psychology and the soul: Nancey Murphy, "Bodies and Souls, or Spirited Bodies". Murphy argues for a "nonreductive physicalist" position. Not everyone will accept Murphy's position (we've debated it a bit here on this list before), but for me at least, it helps to know that there is such a position -- that materialism doesn't explain everything even if physicalism is true. In addition, on the more philosophical side, see Angus Menuge, "Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science" One caveat with this book: Menuge devotes a section to intelligent design theory based on irreducibly complexity, which might not be as convincing as the rest of the book. The philosophical survey of "strong" and "weak" determinism, however, is very helpful, IMHO. Also, check out Stephen Barr's "Modern Physics and Ancient Faith," as well as several essays Barr has published in First Things (http://www.firstthings.com) ( Barr makes some interesting observations about quantum indeterminacy and the mind in relation to the traditional notion of the soul. And see Alister McGrath, "Dawkins' God: Genes, Memes and the Meaning of Life" While not strictly dealing with sociobiology, McGrath deals very effectively with a similar sort of materialist determinism represented by memetics. On historicity of the Bible, for me, the most important thing here is developing a carefully thought out theology of scripture along with an equally carefully thought out epistemology and a feel for hermeneutics. I've found Donald Bloesch's "Holy Scripture" extremely valuable in this regard In addition, concerning the New Testament, check out NT Wright's "Christian Origins" series, particularly "The Resurrection of the Son of God" and "The New Testament and the People of God". Concerning the Old Testament, check out Peter Enns, "Inspiration and Incarnation: Evangelicals and the Problem of the Old Testament". In addition to all this, I'd suggest some reading in historical theology and Christian history. For me, it helps to know that there were deep thinkers in all eras of history who wrestled with similar doubts and challenges, and who developed nuanced and varied ways of approaching them. Pelikan's "The Christian Tradition" is a good survey, and nothing beats reading directly from luminaries such as Augustine and Aquinas. Also, reading devotional / philosophical literature from great Christian minds, such as Blaise Pascal's Pensees, can be a beautifully enriching experience. I'd make a few other suggestion to you: (1) stay away from the Internet Infidels and other such sites for a while, at least until you have a chance to digest some more serious Christian approaches to these questions. (2) Spend quality time in prayer. God isn't afraid of these questions -- He's heard them all before. and (3) spend quality time in worship and in listening to great works of worship. Take in, for example, Rutter's Requiem and Arvo Part's Te Deum. It's amazing what someone like Arvo Part can do for the hurting soul. Blessings, David Opderbeck
Does anyone want to argue that the foregoing response from an ASA member who leans "TE" was "materialist" or anything less than rigorous?dopderbeck
April 15, 2007
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Here, BTW, for anyone who wants to see the true story, is the original ASA thread: http://www.calvin.edu/archive/asa/200704/0139.html And here, for what it's worth, is the response that I gave on the ASA list. There were other good responses as well:
Hi Christine. I think lots of people whom you'll meet here can relate to your journey -- a journey that will not stop this side of heaven! If you're like me at all, what helps most in these times of doubt is not so much "answers" but "perspectives" -- ways of thinking about hard questions rather than pat responses. Here are a few books I've found helpful. These are just my quirky selections: On doubt generally: Alister McGrath, "Doubting: Growing Through the Uncertainties of Faith" -- doubt is not necessarily the enemy of faith! ( http://www.amazon.com/Doubting-Growing-Through-Uncertainties-Faith/dp/0830833528/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176085946&sr=1-1) On evolutionary psychology and the soul: Nancey Murphy, "Bodies and Souls, or Spirited Bodies". ( http://www.amazon.com/Bodies-Spirited-Current-Issues-Theology/dp/0521676762/ref=sr_1_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176085743&sr=8-1) Murphy argues for a "nonreductive physicalist" position. Not everyone will accept Murphy's position (we've debated it a bit here on this list before), but for me at least, it helps to know that there is such a position -- that materialism doesn't explain everything even if physicalism is true. In addition, on the more philosophical side, see Angus Menuge, "Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science" ( http://www.amazon.com/Agents-Under-Materialism-Rationality-Science/dp/0742534049/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176086558&sr=1-1) One caveat with this book: Menuge devotes a section to intelligent design theory based on irreducibly complexity, which might not be as convincing as the rest of the book. The philosophical survey of "strong" and "weak" determinism, however, is very helpful, IMHO. Also, check out Stephen Barr's "Modern Physics and Ancient Faith," as well as several essays Barr has published in First Things (http://www.firstthings.com) ( http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Physics-Ancient-Faith-Stephen/dp/0268021988/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176086057&sr=1-1) Barr makes some interesting observations about quantum indeterminacy and the mind in relation to the traditional notion of the soul. And see Alister McGrath, "Dawkins' God: Genes, Memes and the Meaning of Life" ( http://www.amazon.com/Dawkins-God-Genes-Memes-Meaning/dp/1405125381/ref=sr_1_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176086448&sr=8-1). While not strictly dealing with sociobiology, McGrath deals very effectively with a similar sort of materialist determinism represented by memetics. On historicity of the Bible, for me, the most important thing here is developing a carefully thought out theology of scripture along with an equally carefully thought out epistemology and a feel for hermeneutics. I've found Donald Bloesch's "Holy Scripture" extremely valuable in this regard ( http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Scripture-Inspiration-Interpretation-Foundations/dp/0830827528/ref=sr_1_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176086803&sr=1-1 ) In addition, concerning the New Testament, check out NT Wright's "Christian Origins" series, particularly "The Resurrection of the Son of God" ( http://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-Son-Christian-Origins-Question/dp/0800626796/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176086180&sr=1-2) and "The New Testament and the People of God" ( http://www.amazon.com/Testament-People-Christian-Origins-Question/dp/0800626818/ref=sr_1_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176086274&sr=1-1 ). Concerning the Old Testament, check out Peter Enns, "Inspiration and Incarnation: Evangelicals and the Problem of the Old Testament" ( http://www.amazon.com/Inspiration-Incarnation-Evangelicals-Problem-Testament/dp/0801027306/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176086339&sr=1-1) In addition to all this, I'd suggest some reading in historical theology and Christian history. For me, it helps to know that there were deep thinkers in all eras of history who wrestled with similar doubts and challenges, and who developed nuanced and varied ways of approaching them. Pelikan's "The Christian Tradition" is a good survey ( http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Tradition-Development-Doctrine-Medieval/dp/0226653757/ref=sr_1_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176087227&sr=1-1 ), and nothing beats reading directly from luminaries such as Augustine and Aquinas. Also, reading devotional / philosophical literature from great Christian minds, such as Blaise Pascal's Pensees, can be a beautifully enriching experience ( http://www.amazon.com/Pensees-Penguin-Classics-Blaise-Pascal/dp/0140446451/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176087402&sr=1-2 ) I'd make a few other suggestion to you: (1) stay away from the Internet Infidels and other such sites for a while, at least until you have a chance to digest some more serious Christian approaches to these questions. (2) Spend quality time in prayer. God isn't afraid of these questions -- He's heard them all before. and (3) spend quality time in worship and in listening to great works of worship. Take in, for example, Rutter's Requiem ( http://www.amazon.com/Requiem-Magnificat-Rutter-Cambridge-Singers/dp/B00000DI06/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1176087601&sr=8-1 ) and Arvo Part's Te Deum (http://www.amazon.com/Arvo-Part-Kaljuste-Estonian-Philharmonic/dp/B000024ZDF/ref=sr_1_9/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1176087645&sr=1-9 ). It's amazing what someone like Arvo Part can do for the hurting soul. Blessings, David Opderbeck
dopderbeck
April 15, 2007
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Denyse, this, IMHO, is just about inexcusable. You've taken a post with someone's honest doubts, posted I'm sure without the expecation of publicity, and have now broadcast it to the world. You've included no context, you've not quoted any of the responses to this person's questions, and, probably worst of all, you never participated in the original ASA thread. You offered this struggling person no help -- zilch -- not one word of encouragement, not one book recommendation, nothing. Instead, you just felt free to do this. Pathetic.dopderbeck
April 15, 2007
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Denyse, this, IMHO, is just about inexcusable. I invite everyone here to read the actual thread on the ASA list that Denyse mentions here: http://www.calvin.edu/archive/asa/200704/0122.html You will see that the inquirer is asking some honest and difficult questions. You will also see some sincere efforts at encouragement. Denyse seems to think it's ok to slice and dice this person's honest questions, cut out all the good responses, and broadcast this to the world, all to make heaven knows what point. I note also that Denyse failed to say anything -- not one thing, not one word of encouragement, not one recommendation of a resource -- to the real, struggling person who posted to the ASA list. Instead, she decided to throw out a hook here. Pathetic. Here, BTW, was my contribution to the original thread.
Hi Christine. I think lots of people whom you'll meet here can relate to your journey -- a journey that will not stop this side of heaven! If you're like me at all, what helps most in these times of doubt is not so much "answers" but "perspectives" -- ways of thinking about hard questions rather than pat responses. Here are a few books I've found helpful. These are just my quirky selections: On doubt generally: Alister McGrath, "Doubting: Growing Through the Uncertainties of Faith" -- doubt is not necessarily the enemy of faith! ( http://www.amazon.com/Doubting-Growing-Through-Uncertainties-Faith/dp/0830833528/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176085946&sr=1-1) On evolutionary psychology and the soul: Nancey Murphy, "Bodies and Souls, or Spirited Bodies". ( http://www.amazon.com/Bodies-Spirited-Current-Issues-Theology/dp/0521676762/ref=sr_1_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176085743&sr=8-1) Murphy argues for a "nonreductive physicalist" position. Not everyone will accept Murphy's position (we've debated it a bit here on this list before), but for me at least, it helps to know that there is such a position -- that materialism doesn't explain everything even if physicalism is true. In addition, on the more philosophical side, see Angus Menuge, "Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science" ( http://www.amazon.com/Agents-Under-Materialism-Rationality-Science/dp/0742534049/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176086558&sr=1-1) One caveat with this book: Menuge devotes a section to intelligent design theory based on irreducibly complexity, which might not be as convincing as the rest of the book. The philosophical survey of "strong" and "weak" determinism, however, is very helpful, IMHO. Also, check out Stephen Barr's "Modern Physics and Ancient Faith," as well as several essays Barr has published in First Things (http://www.firstthings.com) ( http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Physics-Ancient-Faith-Stephen/dp/0268021988/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176086057&sr=1-1) Barr makes some interesting observations about quantum indeterminacy and the mind in relation to the traditional notion of the soul. And see Alister McGrath, "Dawkins' God: Genes, Memes and the Meaning of Life" ( http://www.amazon.com/Dawkins-God-Genes-Memes-Meaning/dp/1405125381/ref=sr_1_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176086448&sr=8-1). While not strictly dealing with sociobiology, McGrath deals very effectively with a similar sort of materialist determinism represented by memetics. On historicity of the Bible, for me, the most important thing here is developing a carefully thought out theology of scripture along with an equally carefully thought out epistemology and a feel for hermeneutics. I've found Donald Bloesch's "Holy Scripture" extremely valuable in this regard ( http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Scripture-Inspiration-Interpretation-Foundations/dp/0830827528/ref=sr_1_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176086803&sr=1-1 ) In addition, concerning the New Testament, check out NT Wright's "Christian Origins" series, particularly "The Resurrection of the Son of God" ( http://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-Son-Christian-Origins-Question/dp/0800626796/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176086180&sr=1-2) and "The New Testament and the People of God" ( http://www.amazon.com/Testament-People-Christian-Origins-Question/dp/0800626818/ref=sr_1_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176086274&sr=1-1 ). Concerning the Old Testament, check out Peter Enns, "Inspiration and Incarnation: Evangelicals and the Problem of the Old Testament" ( http://www.amazon.com/Inspiration-Incarnation-Evangelicals-Problem-Testament/dp/0801027306/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176086339&sr=1-1) In addition to all this, I'd suggest some reading in historical theology and Christian history. For me, it helps to know that there were deep thinkers in all eras of history who wrestled with similar doubts and challenges, and who developed nuanced and varied ways of approaching them. Pelikan's "The Christian Tradition" is a good survey ( http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Tradition-Development-Doctrine-Medieval/dp/0226653757/ref=sr_1_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176087227&sr=1-1 ), and nothing beats reading directly from luminaries such as Augustine and Aquinas. Also, reading devotional / philosophical literature from great Christian minds, such as Blaise Pascal's Pensees, can be a beautifully enriching experience ( http://www.amazon.com/Pensees-Penguin-Classics-Blaise-Pascal/dp/0140446451/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176087402&sr=1-2 ) I'd make a few other suggestion to you: (1) stay away from the Internet Infidels and other such sites for a while, at least until you have a chance to digest some more serious Christian approaches to these questions. (2) Spend quality time in prayer. God isn't afraid of these questions -- He's heard them all before. and (3) spend quality time in worship and in listening to great works of worship. Take in, for example, Rutter's Requiem ( http://www.amazon.com/Requiem-Magnificat-Rutter-Cambridge-Singers/dp/B00000DI06/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1176087601&sr=8-1 ) and Arvo Part's Te Deum (http://www.amazon.com/Arvo-Part-Kaljuste-Estonian-Philharmonic/dp/B000024ZDF/ref=sr_1_9/002-0130225-1466461?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1176087645&sr=1-9 ). It's amazing what someone like Arvo Part can do for the hurting soul. Blessings, David Opderbeck
dopderbeck
April 15, 2007
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As far as the Lutheran quote goes, I don't think questioning whether a human being has a supernatural component is in and of itself threatening - the problem I have is that 'supernatural' doesn't mean all that much to begin with. Anything that actually exists is defined as natural and/or material. If it were proven that what we call the supernatural exists, it would be called natural/material. Evolutionary psychology, I have no use for. On the other hand, I think it's important to engage the arguments people bring up in such contexts - if we have a 'God part of the brain', the EvoPsych may say "Aha, these things came into being via nature, nothing more". But someone can (and should) say, "The reason they came into nature is because God does exist, so it's a natural result." I don't think I'd qualify as a materialist, personally. I believe in God, and I'd consider myself a traditionalist (if faulty) Catholic. At the same time, I think God triumphs even in materialist worldviews - considering that, between the big bang and the various apparent tuning of cosmological constants, most atheist materialists have had to retreat and reach for explanations they'd have objected to as supernatural once upon a time. ("See, there's actually an infinite variety of alternate universes.." / "Well, maybe making a universe is pretty easy.." / etc.)nullasalus
April 15, 2007
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Since this is Denyse's blog, let's be content to leave matters of relevance to her discretion. Just to note, the materialist world view will be in competition with the ID view over "Christendom;" so in my estimation, it is completely relevant. Without pontificating on the ins and outs of the spiritual struggle over the predominating Christian world view, I can say that the battle ground has moved past agnosticism and well into the Church. Ironically, agnostics almost seem more open to the notion of Intelligent Design than many evolutionists of the "theistic" variety. On another note: platitudes are increasingly replacing scripture as the source of a Christian's knowledge about spiritual issues. I find a disturbing trend among us to forgo a life's long education on the content of the Bible and its surrounding history, and submit to a superficial knowledge of Scripture buttressed by a host of clever phrases and sayings. It's almost as if a marketing mentality has permeated the Christian tradition of assuring that Scripture is authoritative, based on the belief (and evidence) that the Bible is the word of God.Apollos
April 15, 2007
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Oh you don’t know what this has to do with ID? If this is really the case, I would advise you to first go and read some basic stuff about ID theory. Maybe you also want to check out the overwhelming evidence webside where more elementary concepts are discussed than here (overwhelming evidence= mostly ID interested students; this side= mostly ID scientists). Hope I could help.ErnstMayer
April 15, 2007
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