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L&FP, 66: String — yes, s-t-r-i-n-g — data structures as key information storage arrays (thus the significance of DNA and mRNA)

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One of the more peculiar objections to the design inference is the strident, often repeated claim that the genetic code is not a code, and that DNA and mRNA are not storing algorithmic, coded information used in protein synthesis. These are tied to the string (yes, s-t-r-i-n-g) data structure, a key foundational array for information storage, transfer and application. So, it seems useful to address the string as a key first principles issue, with the onward point being that strings of course can and do store coded information.

Let us begin with, what a string — yes, s-t-r-i-n-g — is (though that should already be obvious from even the headline):

Wikipedia illustrates a string data structure

Geeks for Geeks: A string is a sequence of characters, often used to represent text. In programming, strings are a common data type and are used for a variety of tasks, such as representing names, addresses, and other types of information.

Wikipedia confesses: In computer programming, a string is traditionally a sequence of characters, either as a literal constant or as some kind of variable. The latter may allow its elements to be mutated and the length changed, or it may be fixed (after creation). A string is generally considered as a data type and is often implemented as an array data structure of bytes (or words) that stores a sequence of elements, typically characters, using some character encoding. String may also denote more general arrays or other sequence (or list) data types and structures . . . . A primary purpose of strings is to store human-readable text, like words and sentences. Strings are used to communicate information from a computer program to the user of the program. A program may also accept string input from its user. Further, strings may store data expressed as characters yet not intended for human reading . . . . Example strings and their purposes . . . Alphabetical data, like “AGATGCCGT” representing nucleic acid sequences of DNA . . .

So, it should not be surprising to see that DNA and RNA can store strings of information-bearing elements:

Where, of course, the genetic code is expressed in such strings. The (standard) code, mRNA form is:

The Genetic code uses three-letter codons to specify the sequence of AA’s in proteins, specifying start/stop, and using six bits per AA

For very simple example, HT Khan Academy:

The basic algorithmic process for protein synthesis [HT Khan, fair use edu]

Of course, the above is the mRNA form, which would be transcribed and edited to cut out introns, and it leaves out onward complexities. For example, we can see how Insulin has two strands of AA’s interconnected through di-sulphide bonds, making up a 51 AA protein:

The 51 aa, double chain protein, human insulin (fair use edu)

The end-product insulin protein is put together from the preproinsulin produced stepwise in the ribosome, by way of a clever alignment that uses a third, “scaffolding,” chain C sequence:

Assembling Insulin (fair use)

Using the code one could in principle back-translate to mRNA, however, in the DNA there are intervening Introns between the Exons expressed in the ribosome, so the human genome sequence is:

The underlying DNA sequence in the human genome (fair use)

So, as usual, we see how sophisticated life is at molecular level. That said, we also see that as a key stage of protein synthesis, as ribosomes, mRNA and tRNA interact (with a complex cast of supporting molecules) AA chains are assembled with start, elongate, stop, executing a code driven algorithm. Where, AmHD defines:

[Algorithm:] A finite set of unambiguous instructions that, given some set of initial conditions, can be performed in a prescribed sequence to achieve a certain goal and that has a recognizable set of end conditions.

Illustrating:

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

That should be enough to show the unbiased mind that coded algorithms are in the cell, and that DNA and mRNA act as string data structures. However, there are those who have proved resistant to such commonplace summaries or to citations from the sort of panels of experts who write major textbooks in biochemistry. For record, notwithstanding, here are Lehninger and heirs:

A page capture from Lehninger and heirs, Principles of Biochemistry, (fair use)

Lehninger and heirs go on to say, pp. 194 – 5:

Augmented citation from Lehninger and heirs, on mRNA in protein synthesis (fair use)

We may also now observe a Nobel Prize Laureate, Sydney Brenner, in his article, Life’s code script . . . yes, it’s that obvious, published in 2012 in the leading Science Journal, Nature:

[Brenner:] ” . . . The most interesting connection with biology, in my view, is in Turing’s most important paper: ‘On computable numbers with an application to the Entscheidungsproblem’5, published in 1936, when Turing was just 24.

Computable numbers are defined as those whose decimals are calculable by finite means. [–> that is, effectively, by algorithms] Turing introduced what became known as the Turing machine to formalize the computation. The abstract machine is provided with a tape [–> with marks on it], which it scans one square at a time, and it can write, erase or omit symbols. The scanner may alter its mechanical state, and it can ‘remember’ previously read symbols. Essentially, the system is a set of instructions written on the tape, which describes the machine. Turing also defined a universal Turing machine, which can carry out any computation for which an instruction set can be written — this is the origin of the digital computer. [–> there is also, a more powerful oracle machine, capable of one step decisions]

Turing’s ideas were carried further in the 1940s by mathematician and engineer John von Neumann, who conceived of a ‘constructor’ machine capable of assembling another according to a description. A universal constructor with its own description would build a machine like itself. To complete the task, the universal constructor needs to copy its description and insert the copy into the offspring machine. Von Neumann noted that if the copying machine made errors, these ‘mutations’ would provide inheritable changes in the progeny.

Arguably the best examples of Turing’s and von Neumann’s machines are to be found in biology. Nowhere else are there such complicated systems, in which every organism contains an internal description of itself. The concept of the gene as a symbolic representation of the organism — a code script — is a fundamental feature of the living world and must form the kernel of biological theory. [–> note, again, author, context and publisher]

Turing died in 1954, one year after the discovery of the double-helical structure of DNA by James Watson and Francis Crick, but before biology’s subsequent revolution. Neither he nor von Neumann had any direct effect on molecular biology, but their work allows us to discipline our thoughts about machines, both natural and artificial.

Turing invented the stored-program computer, and von Neumann showed that the description is separate from the universal constructor. [–> that ‘description’ of course is encoded] This is not trivial. Physicist Erwin Schrödinger confused the program and the constructor in his 1944 book What is Life?, in which he saw chromosomes as “architect’s plan and builder’s craft in one”. This is wrong. The code script contains only a description of the executive function, not the function itself.

That’s why Yockey adapted Shannon’s architectural diagram for communication systems:

Yockey’s analysis of protein synthesis as a code-based communication process

So, we may freely understand that DNA and associated molecules such as mRNA express string data structures, store coded biological information, that such information as used in protein synthesis expresses algorithms, and that therefore we are dealing with computation and associated computer language in the course of protein synthesis.

We may quote a Wiki confession:

[Wiki confesses:] Since 2001, 40 non-natural amino acids have been added into proteins by creating a unique codon (recoding) and a corresponding transfer-RNA:aminoacyl – tRNA-synthetase pair to encode it with diverse physicochemical and biological properties in order to be used as a tool to exploring protein structure and function or to create novel or enhanced proteins.[22][23]

H. Murakami and M. Sisido extended some codons to have four and five bases. Steven A. Benner [–>another guy] constructed a functional 65th (in vivo) codon.[24]

In 2015 N. Budisa, D. Söll and co-workers reported the full substitution of all 20,899 tryptophan residues (UGG codons) with unnatural thienopyrrole-alanine in the genetic code of the bacterium Escherichia coli.[25]

In 2016 the first stable semisynthetic organism was created. It was a (single cell) bacterium with two synthetic bases (called X and Y). The bases survived cell division.[26][27]

In 2017, researchers in South Korea reported that they had engineered a mouse with an extended genetic code that can produce proteins with unnatural amino acids.[28]

In May 2019, researchers reported the creation of a new “Syn61” strain of the bacterium Escherichia coli. This strain has a fully synthetic genome that is refactored (all overlaps expanded), recoded (removing the use of three out of 64 codons completely), and further modified to remove the now unnecessary tRNAs and release factors. It is fully viable and grows 1.6× slower than its wild-type counterpart “MDS42”

Indeed, the function of DNA as an information storage entity is so well established, that as Wiki also confesses, it has been adapted to general archival storage:

DNA digital data storage is the process of encoding and decoding binary data to and from synthesized strands of DNA.[1][2]

While DNA as a storage medium has enormous potential because of its high storage density, its practical use is currently severely limited because of its high cost and very slow read and write times.[3]

In June 2019, scientists reported that all 16 GB of text from Wikipedia’s English-language version had been encoded into synthetic DNA.[4] In 2021, scientists reported that a custom DNA data writer had been developed that was capable of writing data into DNA at 18 Mbps.[5]
Encoding methods

Countless methods for encoding data in DNA are possible. The optimal methods are those that make economical use of DNA and protect against errors.[6] If the message DNA is intended to be stored for a long period of time, for example, 1,000 years [–> a lot longer than most of our digital storage media will likely last], it is also helpful if the sequence is obviously artificial and the reading frame is easy to identify.[6]

CNet gives details:

the next storage technology might use an approach as old as life on earth: DNA. Startup Catalog announced Friday it’s crammed all of the text of Wikipedia’s English-language version onto the same genetic molecules our own bodies use.

It accomplished the feat with its first DNA writer, a machine that would fit easily in your house if you first got rid of your refrigerator, oven and some counter space. And although it’s not likely to push aside your phone’s flash memory chips anytime soon, the company believes it’s useful already to some customers who need to archive data.

DNA strands are tiny and tricky to manage, but the biological molecules can store other data than the genes that govern how a cell becomes a pea plant or chimpanzee. Catalog uses prefabricated synthetic DNA strands that are shorter than human DNA, but uses a lot more of them so it can store much more data.

Relying on DNA instead of the latest high-tech miniaturization might sound like a step backward. But DNA is compact, chemically stable — and given that it’s the foundation of the Earth’s biology, it’s arguably not as likely to become as obsolete as the spinning magnetized platters of hard drives or CDs that are disappearing today . . .

In short, they used a different encoding and have stored Wikipedia in DNA.

At this point, we need to ask, why is it that we have seen certain objectors from the penumbra of attack sites making strident, unyielding objections to understanding DNA and mRNA as string data structure information storage entities, part of a wider information processing, protein synthesis process in the cell?

The manifest answer is simple and sad: because such things point to design, which is being ideologically locked out at all costs.

So, it is time to recognise a key first fact about DNA and mRNA and let the chips lie where they fly. END

Comments
PM1 & JVL, in short, you do not have a viable, empirically well founded theory of origin of body plans from a unicellular ancestor, to join with absence of an empirically founded theory of origin of cell based life by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. Meanwhile, it is massively empirically well warranted that cells use coded, algorithmic information in protein synthesis, which directly lends strong support to inferring that the best explanation is the known cause of such, language using intelligence. The difference in institutional preference, meanwhile, is best explained on ideology. Specifically, the dominance of evolutionary materialistic scientism. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2023
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Asauber: I submit that if you can’t quote or link to the quote what it is you think is significant, then you are just playing games. I did link to a review which has a good summary of some of what is discussed in the book. Are you saying if I can't reproduce or link to a quote from the actual book which says everything in the book I'm lying? Really? That's your scientific criteria? You won't read something because someone can't provide an online resource which says everything in the book? Really? This is the level of scientific reasoning that you guys use? Really?JVL
March 17, 2023
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Relatd: My review: Clearly, clearly, clearly… The author ignores a number of posts made here, including this thread, which refute unguided evolution. He’s clearly afraid to read them. Okay, you're afraid to read the book. Noted. Playing games? Here? Who would… oh wait. Like I said: you're afraid to read the book.JVL
March 17, 2023
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Origenes: A book that says where the body plan is stored? Where is the body plan stored according to this book? The book says there is no body plan. Just like a lot of other books. Does that mean you aren't going to read it? Because it doesn't agree with you? What if you're wrong? Are you NOT going to read everything which you think (ahead of time) isn't correct?JVL
March 17, 2023
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Andrew at 58, Playing games? Here? Who would... oh wait.relatd
March 17, 2023
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"IF you really want to get a good explanation then you should read it." JVL, I submit that if you can't quote or link to the quote what it is you think is significant, then you are just playing games. Andrewasauber
March 17, 2023
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JVL at 55, My review: Clearly, clearly, clearly... The author ignores a number of posts made here, including this thread, which refute unguided evolution. He's clearly afraid to read them. :)relatd
March 17, 2023
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JVL @
In fact, there is a very good book written for non-specialists explaining it all pretty well.
A book that says where the body plan is stored? Where is the body plan stored according to this book?Origenes
March 17, 2023
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Relatd: Morphological? No, there isn’t. The Designer – the Christian God – reused design instructions. Evolution? No, not as presented here. Clearly you are not interested in the actual evidence that you are always saying doesn't exist. Clearly you are not even going to put yourself in a position of having to even make a small attempt to understand that which you claim is false. Clearly you are not actually operating in any kind of scientific mode. Clearly you should stop pretending that you care about the evidence, that you understand the unguided evolution theory, that you have any kind of open mind about the issues. I’ve got photos of my lemur-like ancestor if you want to see them… So, you invented a Time Machine as well? It is pretty astonishing to me that ID supporter after ID supporter says: read this article, watch this video, read this book and everyone thinks how lovely that is. When I say: here's a book that addresses some of your concerns I'm shouted down as being some kind of idiot or insincere agent. IF not one of you actually cares to consider the evidence you've asked for when you are told where you can find it then why do you ask in the first place? Is it all just some kind of game you're playing to make yourselves feel good? Are you afraid to actually look at the arguments and evidence? Are you being scientific at all?JVL
March 17, 2023
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JVL at 52, Morphological? No, there isn't. The Designer - the Christian God - reused design instructions. Evolution? No, not as presented here. I've got photos of my lemur-like ancestor if you want to see them... :) :)relatd
March 17, 2023
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Relatd: He left out: Only in my imagination. This doesn’t even qualify as science fiction. Vaguely science fantasy… You're quoting a reviewer! You really are afraid to read the actual book aren't you? You really don't want to hear the actual argument and learn about the actual evidence INCLUDING lab work do you? IF you're going to ignore actual evidence then please stop saying there isn't any. If you are going to put your fingers in your ears and chant LA LA LA LA when someone tells you where to find some of the answers you are looking for then please stop asking for it. “Hey Bob, what’s a shibboleth?” So, you haven't got a dictionary either?JVL
March 17, 2023
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Relatd: I do wish you’d realize that unguided means unguided. And the human and ape common ancestor, when did it live (+/- 10,000 years)? I suspect you have no actual evidence. Of course I know what unguided means. Are you intentionally being insulting or just rude? Which 'ape' and human common ancestor are you talking about? There's fossil and genomic evidence of course. And morphologic. Which you probably know but are denying for some reason. (Oh and, by the way, when did it live is super easy to find out . . . IF you really want to know. Do you really want to know or are you just changing the subject because you've got nothing to say about what I said before?)JVL
March 17, 2023
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JVL at 49, Fear. That's it. Thank you Doctor JVL... your credibility is not good. "Hey Bob, what's a shibboleth?" What? :) :)relatd
March 17, 2023
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JVL at 46, "Shubin reveals there is a plethora of pathways to rapid evolution and sudden transformations." He left out: Only in my imagination. This doesn't even qualify as science fiction. Vaguely science fantasy...relatd
March 17, 2023
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Relatd: The usual “you don’t understand.” Oh, I understand alright. Long before coming here I dealt with similar non-arguments elsewhere. Based on some things you say you don't seem to understand what the real argument is. You seem to replace the real argument with your version of it thereby creating a straw-man version which no one actually supports. IF you really want to know what the real argument is then you should spend more time trying to learn what it is. I would recommend Dr Shubin's book: it's inexpensive (maybe free at your local library), it's easy to read and understand, AND it's more up-to-date than many of the quotes that get copy-and-pasted here. I'm quite sure you won't actually read the book which makes me wonder if you're afraid to read it in case some of your shibboleths are undercut.JVL
March 17, 2023
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Change your mind *click* Change your mind. I do wish you'd realize that unguided means unguided. And the human and ape common ancestor, when did it live (+/- 10,000 years)? I suspect you have no actual evidence.relatd
March 17, 2023
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Asauber: “Go read a book” sucks as argumentation. You can recommend a book. That’s all you can do. The idea here is to present your perspective. If the game changer is in a book, quote it or link it or something. I have presented my perspective, many times. When asked why I think that way or what evidence there is SOMETIMES I tell you about an easy to find and read book which lays it out nicely. IF you really want to get a good explanation then you should read it. Unless you're afraid. Are you afraid?JVL
March 17, 2023
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From https://inquisitivebiologist.com/2020/03/25/book-review-some-assembly-required-decoding-four-billion-years-of-life-from-ancient-fossils-to-dna/
When Charles Darwin formulated his ideas, he was candid about weaknesses and gaps in his thinking. Shubin opens the book with one vocal critic, St. George Jackson Mivart, who thought Darwin’s ideas were flawed. If evolution is a process of gradual changes via mutation and natural selection, then how are major transitions supposed to arise? It sounds like a sensible question and to this day creationists like to trot out this argument. Darwin had five words for Mivart (and I am not building up to an obscenity-laden punchline here): by a change of function. Shubin beautifully clarifies this on page 27: “innovations never come about during the great transitions they are associated with”. I am just going to step back while you read that sentence again. What Shubin gets at is that evolution takes shortcuts. Rather than inventing new traits from scratch, it repurposes existing ones. Examples Shubin gives are air-breathing in fish, which was repurposed to make lungs in land animals, and feathers on dinosaurs that originally evolved in a different context, but were repurposed for flight. Shubin has spent a research career working on our fishy ancestor, Tiktaalik rosaea, which was the subject of his previous book. This is but one of the many ways in which evolution can achieve rapid and major transitions. Subtle changes during embryonic development can have large impacts later in life. Shubin introduces German naturalists Karl Ernst von Baer, who observed that early-stage embryos of different species looked very similar, and Ernst Haeckel, who took that idea too far with his motto “ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny” and took some liberties with his famous embryo drawings.
Time and again, Shubin shows how evolution can reuse, repurpose, or rejiggle already existing structures and processes. I don’t know about you, but these kinds of spine-tingling revelations were what drew me to study biology.
Another powerhouse of innovation is DNA, and genetics can tell us much about evolution. These sections are a giddy ride where Shubin highlights one after another stupendous concept. Take the huge similarity between e.g. chimps and humans: genome sequencing revealed some 95%-98% similarity. Why are we so different then? Because DNA is not just a molecule containing gene after gene. Like a circuit board, it is a network, where some pieces of DNA function as switches that turn other genes on and off. This is the field of evolutionary development or evo-devo and offers another way for small changes to have big effects. (On a side-note, it would offer a possible mechanism for Noam Chomsky’s proposed single mutation that led to human language, see my review of Why Chimpanzees Can’t Learn Language and Only Humans Can.) Hox genes control the development of whole body segments and can be repurposed to make other structures, such as limbs. Most DNA does not even code for anything and Susumu Ohno surmised it results from copying processes gone wild, whether gene, chromosome or whole-DNA duplication (biologists call this last one polyploidy, it is common in plants). And then there is Barbara McClintock’s discovery of jumping genes: selfish genetic elements that multiply and willy-nilly insert themselves all over a DNA molecule. If rogue replication sounds an awful lot like cancer, well, that is because it is – evolution and cancer are closely linked. And how about this? If such a jumping gene mutates and becomes a genetic switch, they can insert switches all over a genome. Dramatic new traits that at first sight would require an unlikely number of separate mutations suddenly become a whole lot more plausible. One example Shubin provides is the evolution of pregnancy.
Shubin reveals there is a plethora of pathways to rapid evolution and sudden transformations. Some Assembly Required is a very pleasant mix of the latest science, the historical roots of ideas, and the people behind them. Not infrequently, these stories of discovery show multiple people converging on the same idea at the same time (as was the case for Darwin and Wallace). Or show people being far ahead of their time, resulting in them being ignored or even ostracized for heretical views. The latter, sadly, involves a fair share of brilliant women whose ideas were initially not taken seriously.
I do not understand why any of you who claim to want to understand how all this unguided evolution is supposed to work would not want to read an explanation about how some of it does work. Unless you're afraid of having to change your mind. Are you afraid of having to change your mind? Are you? Anyway, at the very least stop saying that no one has provided you with some evidence. It's there and easy to get, possibly even in your local library.JVL
March 17, 2023
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JVL at 35, The usual "you don't understand." Oh, I understand alright. Long before coming here I dealt with similar non-arguments elsewhere.relatd
March 17, 2023
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Pyrrho @29
So, my chief objection to ID at this point is that it is so enamored of engineering metaphors, esp computer engineering metaphors, that it ends up failing to grasp the very category of life as such. It is not a theory of biological organisms; it is a theory of very fancy machinery.
You see? This is how you Darwinists have been misinterpreting reality for 150+ years. The fact is, that biology is ALL ABOUT ENGINEERING. Why ? It is pretty simple. There is no other way around it :))))) ONCE AGAIN - THERE IS NO OTHER WAY AROUND IT ! Look at octopus and its real time adaptive camouflage. HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU GET SUCH FEATURES WITHOUT ENGINEERING ???????? Let me guess: YOU DON'T KNOW OF COURSE YOU DON'T :)))))) Because you CAN NOT :))))) (Only biologists can, when they dream and making up their fairy tales/just-so stories .... ) You people (Darwinists) invented this term "Biology". As if using this word solves all the engineering problems we see on biology :)))))) You people are so confused .... because species are not made of steel, plastic and copper wires, it is not engineering ? :)))))))) you people are so confused ... You people (Darwinists) have been misinterpreting reality for 150 years.martin_r
March 17, 2023
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Bornagain77: Bluff and Bluster, Thy name is JVL! You could read the book and find out . . . or are you afraid you'd have to change your mind about something if you did read it?JVL
March 17, 2023
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JVL, "Go read a book" sucks as argumentation. You can recommend a book. That's all you can do. The idea here is to present your perspective. If the game changer is in a book, quote it or link it or something. Andrewasauber
March 17, 2023
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Sandy: I’m reading Neil Shubin quotes . ? 99% atheist darwinist nonsense. So, you're not reading all the pages of explanation and checking out the references? And you're being scientific?JVL
March 17, 2023
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Bluff and Bluster, Thy name is JVL!
The Evolution of the Darwin Fish - February 17, 2018 - David F. Coppedge Excerpt: Darwinians believe that fish crawled out onto land—their fins becoming pentadactyl limbs—then returned back to the sea multiple times in the form of ichthyosaurs, pinnipeds and whales.,,, After Darwin, various ‘transitional’ fish with bony fins were subsequently proposed and deposed (see sign, above), but Darwinians didn’t become excited until Neil Shubin’s Tiktaalik fossil (6 April 2006), though some disagreed (4 December 2008).,,, Subsequently, though, tetrapod tracks were found a full 10 million Darwin Years earlier (6 January 2010), undermining Shubin’s claim to have found a transitional form. Darwinians are still hunting. Some of their claims seem outlandish (if you’ll pardon the pun). Who would think that rays and skates would be candidates? Sharks and rays—cartilaginous fish—don’t look ready to crawl onto the land. Science Daily, though, jumps on a new idea coming out of the New York University School of Medicine: “Walking fish suggests locomotion control evolved much earlier than thought.” [Thought by whom? See tontology.] Cartoons that illustrate evolution depict early vertebrates generating primordial limbs as they move onto land for the first time. But new findings indicate that some of these first ambulatory creatures may have stayed under water, spawning descendants that today exhibit walking behavior on the ocean floor. The results appear February 8 in the journal Cell. “It has generally been thought that the ability to walk is something that evolved as vertebrates transitioned from sea to land,” says senior author Jeremy Dasen, a developmental neurobiologist in the Department of Neuroscience and Physiology at the New York University School of Medicine. “We were surprised to learn that certain species of fish also can walk. In addition, they use a neural and genetic developmental program that is almost identical to the one used by higher vertebrates, including humans.“ https://crev.info/2018/02/evolution-darwin-fish/ Attenborough, read your mail: Evolution is messier than TV - February 2014 - with video Excerpt: The Polish trackways establish that Tiktaalik wasn’t anywhere near the first tetrapod, so the most important information about the transition to land doesn’t even include Tiktaalik at present.,,, Some fish today routinely spend time out of the water, using a variety of mechanisms. But there is no particular reason to believe that they are on their way to becoming full time tetrapods or land dwellers. So we would need to be cautious about assuming that specific mechanisms that might be useful on land are definitive evidence of a definite, permanent move to full-time land dwelling. A friend writes to point out a modern-day examples that illustrates this, the walking shark: http://www.uncommondescent.com/evolution/attenborough-read-your-mail-evolution-is-messier-than-tv/ Debunking “Professor Dave’s” Hit Piece Against Stephen Meyer Günter Bechly - November 28, 2022 Excerpt: Fish-tetrapod transition: This transition is far from being resolved in a gradual way, which is why a recent study concluded that “the fish-to-tetrapod transition is one of the fundamental problems in evolutionary biology” (Wood & Nakamura 2018). Is there a series of transitional fossils morphologically connecting lobe-finned fish and tetrapods? Yes, they are often called fishapods, and include famous taxa like Tiktaalik and Ichthyostega. Do tetrapods appear gradually from these fishapods? No, not by any stretch of the imagination! Actually, the oldest evidence for tetrapods (the Zachelmie tracks from Poland) predates the oldest fishapods by 10 million years (Ahlberg 2019). It even predates fish-like forms such as Eusthenopteron that rather resembled a salmon. Of course, this inconvenient truth can be explained away with ad hoc hypotheses like ghost lineages and an incomplete fossil record. What cannot be explained away is the simple fact of an extremely sudden appearance of tetrapods. But there is not just this temporal paradox of assumed descendants being older than their assumed ancestors. There are also large gaps in the morphological transition. This holds true especially for the transition from typical pectoral and pelvic lobe-fins to the typical tetrapod hand and foot skeleton with phalanges, for which the first evidence was just recently discovered in a well-preserved specimen of Elpistostege (Cloutier et al. 2020). https://evolutionnews.org/2022/11/debunking-professor-daves-hit-piece-against-stephen-meyer/
Casey Luskin quoted Shubin himself in his rebuttal of Falk's claim about fish fins being proof for Darwinian evolution:
Revealing Darrel Falk’s Overstatements about Limb Bones in Fish Fins Casey Luskin - June 3, 2021 Excerpt: Deep Homology or Deep Trouble for Neo-Darwinism? As noted above, the authors of the Cell paper (as well as Yano and Tamura, 2013) cite Shubin et al. (2009) to claim that the common developmental pathways that produce these mutant bones in fish fins and normal bones in tetrapod limbs show “deep homology.” But Shubin et al. reveal that the very concept of “deep homology” was born out of data that was unexpected under a neo-Darwinian evolutionary paradigm: "One of the most important, and entirely unanticipated, insights of the past 15 years was the recognition of an ancient similarity of patterning mechanisms in diverse organisms, often among structures not thought to be homologous on morphological or phylogenetic grounds. In 1997, prompted by the remarkable extent of similarities in genetic regulation between organs as different as fly wings and tetrapod limbs, we suggested the term ‘deep homology’ to describe the sharing of the genetic regulatory apparatus that is used to build morphologically and phylogenetically disparate animal features." In other words, there are some structures — they give examples of bird wings vs. fly wings, insect legs vs. vertebrate legs, or insect eyes vs. jellyfish eyes vs. vertebrate eyes — that have no obvious homology but use similar genes for their construction. Neo-Darwinism did not predict this data, which is why Shubin et al. called this discovery “entirely unanticipated.” From a design standpoint, we might have expected this data under the idea of common design, where there is re-usage of common genetic programs in widely diverse organisms. Could the same thing be going on here, where similar genetic programs were intelligently designed in fish and tetrapods to control fin or limb growth, even though there is not necessarily an evolutionary link between these structures? https://evolutionnews.org/2021/06/revealing-darrel-falks-overstatements-about-limb-bones-in-fish-fins/
etc.. etc.. etc..bornagain77
March 17, 2023
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Neil Shubin’s book
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/767633.Neil_Shubin I'm reading Neil Shubin quotes . :) 99% atheist darwinist nonsense.Sandy
March 17, 2023
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Kairosfocus: show us some body plan origin based on “What you need is to have the control genes change . . . ” As I have already said quite a few times I recommend starting with Neil Shubin's book Some Assembly Required. It's a good introduction to the basic idea. IF you choose not to read it that's your call but you can't keep saying no one has tried to provide at least some of what you ask for. It's up to you to actually spend the time to so some work and some reading. Predictably, you will not be able to do so. Read the book. You might even be able to get it from your local library at no additional cost to yourself.JVL
March 17, 2023
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Origenes: In their magical world, the body builds itself without explanation, just like grandma’s fridge fills itself up. I didn't say it happened without explanation (unlike the design inference which did just happen at some undisclosed time and place). In fact, there is a very good book written for non-specialists explaining it all pretty well. And I have suggested it to many people on this forum. Clearly no one actually cares to find out. It is actual science even if you choose to not learn about it.JVL
March 17, 2023
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PM1 & JVL, show us some body plan origin based on “What you need is to have the control genes change . . . ” starting from unicellular organisms, and embracing the main kingdoms and phyla etc of life. Predictably, you will not be able to do so.
It's easy to "predict" that someone won't be able to do something when no one is able to do it.
Meanwhile, can you agree that we find algorithmic, protein AA chain building code and associated execution molecular scale machinery in the cell?
No; as per my 29, this whole way of thinking about molecular biology is fundamentally confused because it relies on a category mistake: that of failing to apprehend the categorial distinction between organisms and machines.
That is the actual pivotal point for it points to the need for an empirically adequate cause at the root of biological life. The only empirically observed cause of algorithms, code and associated execution machinery is language using designers.
The fact that symbol-manipulating intelligent minded animals can collaboratively learn how to construct algorithms and codes and can also, individually and cooperatively, improve and refine algorithms and codes, and do so in order to solve tasks they face in coping with their physical and social environments tells us nothing at all about whether any of those features of empirically observable algorithm generation were necessary for the origin of biological information during abiogenesis.PyrrhoManiac1
March 17, 2023
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Relatd: VL has lost his credibility as a commentator. Well, clearly you don't understand how the system works. Which means you haven't read any decent book explaining it. Which is kind of sad since you think you understand it so well.JVL
March 17, 2023
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JVL has lost his credibility as a commentator.relatd
March 17, 2023
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