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Lizzie Joins the ID Camp Without Even Knowing It!

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Lizzie,

You continue to astonish.

In the first sentence of your reply to my prior post you wrote: “I know that it is possible for intelligent life-forms to send radio signals, because we do; my priors for the a radio signal to have an intelligent origin are therefore substantially above zero.”

As I demonstrated earlier, the issue is not whether nature or intelligent agents can cause radio signals. We know that both can. The issue is whether we have any warrant to distinguish this particular signal from a natural signal.

Then you write: “I know of no non-intelligent process that might generate prime numbers (presumably expressed as binary code), and so my priors on that are low.”

Upon a moment’s reflection I am certain you will agree that this is not, strictly speaking, correct. It is easy to imagine such a process. Imagine (as you suggested) a simple binary code that assigns two “dots” to the number “two” and three “dots” to the number “three” and five “dots” to the number “five” and so on, and also assigns a “dash” to delimit each number (a cumbersome code to be sure, but a conceivable one). In this code the series “dot dot dash dot dot dot dash” denotes the first two prime numbers between 1 and 100. Surely you will agree that it is well within the power of chance and mechanical necessity to produce a radio signal with such a simple sequence.

So what do we now know? We know that nature sends out radio signals. But that is not all we know. We know that it is entirely within the realm of reason to suppose that nature could send out a radio signal that denotes the first two prime numbers between 1 and 100 given a particular binary code.

From this information we must conclude that if the signal we received were only the first two prime numbers, we would have no warrant to assign a high probability to “intelligent cause.”

Nevertheless, we both know that your calculation (and it is a very good calculation for which I commend you) that the probability that this particular signal has an intelligent source is for all practical purposes “one” is correct.

Nature can send out a radio signal.

Nature can embed a pattern in that signal that appears to generate prime numbers under the binary protocol we have designated.

Why, then, are we warranted to infer intelligent agency and not the work of nature as the cause of this particular signal?

The answer has nothing to do with your or my “intuition” about the signal.

The answer is that we both know that nature can do two things. (1) It can generate highly improbable patterns. Imagine ANY 500 bit long series of dots and dashes, and you will have a pattern that could not reasonably be replicated by chance before the heat death of the universe. And (2) it can generate specified patterns (for example, the two prime numbers we saw above).

We also know something about what nature cannot do. You said, “I know of no non-intelligent process that might generate prime numbers.” You were almost right. As I have already demonstrated, you should have said “I know of no non-intelligent process that might generate A COMPLEX PATTERN OF prime numbers.”

In other words, you and I know that while nature can do “specified,” and nature can do “complex,” it cannot do “specified and complex at the same time”! This is not your intuition speaking Lizzie. Without seeming to know it, you have made an inference from the universal experience of the human race.

Here’s the most important “take away” for purposes of the discussion we have been having: As much as you have bucked against the idea, you were able to make this design inference based upon nothing more than the character of the embedded signal (i.e., that it contained complex and specified information at the same time, that is to say, complex specified information).

Welcome to the ID camp Lizzie!

Comments
Barry:
I am really trying to understand how the first two statements can be reconciled with the third.
And I appreciate the effort :) But of course it wasn't a statement, it was a question:
But on August 8 you wrote: “What I am asking is how, in the absense of ANY information about the designer you would spot that the a string of nucleotides contained a name? In other words, take that string of nucleotides with Craig Venter’s name in it, and say how you would distinguish it from any other randomly generated string without benefit of any knowledge regarding the designer. And it’s actually completely on point wrt the OP, as it demonstrates just how a design inference made on the basis of non-functional code depends on at least a reasonably detailed hypothesis concerning attributes of the designer. To put the problem more generally: how would you distinguish between a randomly generated string and one with a coded message without knowing anything about the sender of the message?”
Right. Now here we have a very specific puzzle. We have a sequence of nucleotides that doesn't appear to do anything (presumably): we see whether it makes any difference to the organism if we remove it. It doesn't. It seems completely inert. So we have no specification in advance, we just have a string of nucleotides that we can express as a string of codons. And we want to know whether that string, now a string symbols for codons is just a bit of "junk" - a happenstance sequence of non-coding nucleotides, or contains information. We have no knowledge of human designers, we know nothing about their language, or even if they have one, their writing system, if they had one - no clue. Just a hunch, maybe, that there might be a coded something in the string. My question was: how would you set about finding out? I do not know of a method in this particular case. Do you?Elizabeth Liddle
August 15, 2011
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OOPS, cases herekairosfocus
August 15, 2011
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Onlookers, notice something int eh likelihood ratio expression: L[E|T2]/ L[E|T1] = LAMBDA = {p[E|T2]/ p[E|T1]} * {P(T2)/P(T1)} See that direct ratio of probabilities of the theories T1, T2, and that in an essentially subectivist context of perceiving degrees of probability? What happens if we assign P(T2) = 0, along the lines of Lewontin's a priorism and claimed "self-evidence"? Do you see how the LHS is forced to zero, on essentially a begged question? Do you see why a search of a config space of possibilities approach is better able to force out into the open the issues at stake? A space of possibilities, W -- observable and/or calculable An observed case from that space E, plainly observed. A definable zone T that is narrow relative to the space W -- reasonably identifiable and observable. Then, let us go for Chi_500 = I*S - 500, bits beyond the solar system PTQS threshold. I -- calculable on observation, or inferred by inspection as Shannon did in some cases. S -- essentially looks at whether E comes form a zone T in W. That's it. Cf cases here. In effect once you are from something of complexity that requires 500 bits worth, we are looking at the solar system resources being able to sample the ratio of 1 straw to a cubical bale 1 light month across [light goes 1/5 mile per microsecond]. Any reasonably blind search of that scope in that size of possibilities, is going to overwhelmingly be likely to be straw, not needle. In fact you could have our solar system out to Pluto in that bale and be utterly unlikely to hit on it by chance. That is the basis for inferring design on seeing CSI or better yet FSCI, especially digitally coded info. Intelligence routinely produces it, chance and necessity in a highly contingent situation will be utterly unlikely to. Which is exactly what is sitting in the nucleus of the living cell. (I forget, Dr Liddle has disputed the identification of this as digital code. It is, 4-state elements, 2 bits potential storage per symbol. Codon tables are all over the net.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 15, 2011
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Dr. Liddle, now I am really confused. Today you say: ““Meleager, if you have been following my posts, you will know that at no time have I said that design [either sense] detection is not “valid”, in principle or that intelligent design cannot be detected without knowledge of the particulars of the designing agency.” And then you reiterated for my benefit: “No, you don’t need ‘particulars of the designing agency.’” But on August 8 you wrote: “What I am asking is how, in the absense of ANY information about the designer you would spot that the a string of nucleotides contained a name? In other words, take that string of nucleotides with Craig Venter’s name in it, and say how you would distinguish it from any other randomly generated string without benefit of any knowledge regarding the designer. And it’s actually completely on point wrt the OP, as it demonstrates just how a design inference made on the basis of non-functional code depends on at least a reasonably detailed hypothesis concerning attributes of the designer. To put the problem more generally: how would you distinguish between a randomly generated string and one with a coded message without knowing anything about the sender of the message?” I am really trying to understand how the first two statements can be reconciled with the third.Barry Arrington
August 15, 2011
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Barry:
Dr. Liddle, I am mulling your 12.1. Before I answer that, please tell me how the following statements can both be true:
OK
On August 12, 2011 Dr. Liddle wrote: “If you want to figure out whether at [sic] thing is designed or not, or, even, what the signature of design is, you have to ask something about the design process.”
Let me rephrase in an attempt at greater clarity: If you want to know whether an item is an artifact or not, then you need to ask something about the processes it underwent in order to come to be as it is. You also need to do this if you want to understand what the signature of the products of such processes might be. So you ask: is there evidence that it is iterative, for instance, and does it vary? Does it involve trial-by-error learning? Is there evidence of foresight? Of retrofitting? What is the medium of the design? How is it built? Does it show signs of tooling, or shaping or polishing? Could it be a signal that forms part of a feedback process? Could it be a signal from an intelligent source to another? Does it appear to mimic another object? If so, in what way? All these things will inform your conclusion, which, like all scientific conclusions, will be provisional, and subject to change should more data become available that adjusts your priors on any unknown. Now for my (somewhat irritable, for which I apologise) response to Meleager:
“Meleager, if you have been following my posts, you will know that at no time have I said that design [either sense] detection is not “valid”, in principle or that intelligent design cannot be detected without knowledge of the particulars of the designing agency.”
I meant exactly what I said. No, you don't need "particulars of the designing agency". You need to ask, as I said in my first quote, questions about the processes by which the thing came to be the way it is. And if, for example, you can see no evidence that the thing is a self-replicator, for instance, then that is a strong clue that the thing has an external designer, even if you have no information whatsoever about the nature of the designer. In other words there is no (I would argue) simple method for establishing whether something is an artifact or the outcome of a non-intentional process such as evolution, or geology. As with any investigation you collect as much data as you can, think up possible theories, derive hypotheses from them, test them against the data. You can't just do a probability calc and stop. F/N Ironically, perhaps, I spent a huge amount of time back in 2004 trying to persuade people that just because there was an "overwhelming" probability that the exit polls gave Kerry a majority, that did not mean that the votes were artifactual - "designed" - by Karl Rove to get Bush back into the White House. When you compute a probability you have to be very clear (and many who should be aren't) about what your probability is a probability of. You are a lawyer, Barry - did you read the case of Sir Roy Meadows whose expert evidence resulted in several convictions for infanticide, later quashed because he mistook the "overwhelming probability" that there was a familial factor when several cot deaths occurred in a single family for the "overwhelming probability" that the babies had been intentionally killed. To come to a confident conclusion, you need as much data as you can, and testing your models is an iterative process, not something you do on day one, and then leave set in stone for all time.Elizabeth Liddle
August 15, 2011
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Dr. Liddle, I am mulling your 12.1. Before I answer that, please tell me how the following statements can both be true: On August 12, 2011 Dr. Liddle wrote: “If you want to figure out whether at [sic] thing is designed or not, or, even, what the signature of design is, you have to ask something about the design process.” On August 15, 2011 Dr. Liddle wrote: “Meleager, if you have been following my posts, you will know that at no time have I said that design detection is not “valid”, in principle or that intelligent design cannot be detected without knowledge of the particulars of the designing agency.”Barry Arrington
August 15, 2011
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No, Barry, it is not. And you have just moved the goalposts. You accused me of suggesting that "Bill Dembski believes that intelligence can be non-intentional". I have not suggested that. I'm sure he does not believe that intelligence can be non-intentional. I have made that clear. You need to retract the allegation that I said, or suggested any such thing. I did not. Therefore I did not act dishonestly. So you need to retract that charge. Now you accuse me of "gross misuse of language". Which is a rather different And I deny it because you have misunderstood, despite my repeated efforts to make it clear what I am actually saying. Dembski gives an operational definition, as a good scientist should. Using that operational definition I show (or I claim to show) that Dembski is correct - that CSI is generated by systems that conform to that definition. However, those systems include evolutionary systems - they generate CSI, AND they conform to the definition. I am not saying, oh look Dembski forgot to mention intention, let's equivocate and claim that evolutionary systems can create CSI! I am saying: look here is how evolutionary systems create CSI, and, look, it's just the same way as the rat in the maze does it, and look again, this is because Dembski has found something interesting - his definition nicely includes our intentional rat, but also includes our non-intentional evolutionary systems. In other words, it is not the intentional aspect of intelligence that is sufficient and necessary for CSI but the aspect of it that facilitates "informed choice" - not random selection, but selection informed by success, which is exactly what natural selection is. Dembski, having shown how choosing systems generate CSI, fails to notice that the choosing system that generates CSI doesn't have to be intentional; that a similar choosing system that also fits his description despite being non-intentional also generates CSI. He's correct, but for the wrong reason, just as Montgolfier successfully launched his balloon, but thought that it was the smoke doing the lifting, not the hot air. Dembski has produced a definition of a CSI generator that works, but it turns out that it's not intention that does the lifting but informed choice which can result from any iterative feedback system. Feel free to disagree. But please engage with the argument, rather than impugn my intellectual (and, in this case, moral) integrity. Thanks.Elizabeth Liddle
August 15, 2011
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Not according to the Darwinistic Received Wisdom we are all "taught" in school.Ilion
August 15, 2011
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*yawn*Ilion
August 15, 2011
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Barry: "Now, to suggest that Bill Dembski believes that intelligence can be non-intentional, I do believe you are being dishonest in the normal sense of the word about that." Dr. Liddle: "Except that I didn’t suggest it. In fact, I made it clear that I think he almost certainly does not believes it. Repeatedly" Barry: No, you repeatedly suggest just the opposite when you say that a fair reading of Dembski's definition of intelligence excludes intentionality. No, it cannot. To suggest, as you repeatedly do, that a wire mesh filter process "chooses" and an intelligent agent "chooses" and therefore "chooses" means the same thing in both contexts is a gross misuse of language.Barry Arrington
August 15, 2011
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There is :) Let me link again to Denis Noble, he's really worth listening to: http://videolectures.net/eccs07_noble_psb/ Honestly, you should all watch it! It's the antidote to The Selfish Gene :)Elizabeth Liddle
August 15, 2011
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Dr. Liddle, With respect to the prime number example, by no means am I casting aspersions on your personal integrity. As I have said before, I do not believe you are lying. I believe your faith commitments force you away from glaringly obvious conclusions.
And I asked you to explain why you believe this.
The entire issue we have been exploring is why we would have any warrant to begin investigating this signal in the first place. Certainly we wouldn’t perform a Bayesian analysis on just any old radio signal. Why would we consider performing any sort of analysis on this one? Why not simply ignore it as a product of the background radiation? Why is it interesting to us to begin with? it is interesting to us to begin with because it specifies the primes between 1 and 100. Why are the primes between 1 and 100 interesting? There is one and only one reason they are interesting — they are a case of complex specified information. You refuse to admit the obvious — that the only reason we would think this signal to be interesting to begin with — the only reason you would start to perform Bayesian analysis — is that you have already made at least a preliminary design inference based on the fact that the signal contains CSI.
Barry, your claim, another thread (I have no idea why you have spread this over several threads, I'm going to have to hunt) was that I "made a design inference based on nothing more than the existence of CSI embedded in a radio signal. I based my inference on CSI alone". I did not, as I explained here, in excruciating detail. As you can see from the Bayesian equation there, the probability that the signal came from a non-intelligent source is a prior, but not the only prior And it was not a "CSI" probability, although I would agree that the fact that the signal is complex and readily compressible (has specified complexity) was a factor in my arriving at that prior. But the point about a prior probability is that it can be adjusted in the light of new data. CSI calculations generate a non-conditional probability value that is supposed to be the probability the pattern was generated by a non-intentional source. That is why my reasoning is fundamentally different. I am not dishonestly (whether knowingly or unknowingly) refusing to admit that I am using CSI to make an inference and then refusing to peek over the brink; I am applying a different inferential approach, one that I consider much sounder, which leads me to no brink at all. As I keep saying: I have no problem with inferring design. I do have a huge problem in inferring it solely from a CSI estimate, and the reason is that IMO the probability calc in a CSI estimate is not the probability that a pattern could have been generated from an non-intentional sources. In other words, I think it's wrong.
Again, I do not believe you are lying to me or anyone else. I believe your faith commitments are so strong they do not allow you to see the obvious.
No, it's because I have decent training in inferential statistics.
Now, to suggest that Bill Dembski believes that intelligence can be non-intentional, I do believe you are being dishonest in the normal sense of the word about that.
Except that I didn't suggest it. In fact, I made it clear that I think he almost certainly does not believes it. Repeatedly.Elizabeth Liddle
August 15, 2011
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Ms. Liddle...welcome to the big tent.Bantay
August 15, 2011
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Dr. Liddle, With respect to the prime number example, by no means am I casting aspersions on your personal integrity. As I have said before, I do not believe you are lying. I believe your faith commitments force you away from glaringly obvious conclusions. The entire issue we have been exploring is why we would have any warrant to begin investigating this signal in the first place. Certainly we wouldn't perform a Bayesian analysis on just any old radio signal. Why would we consider performing any sort of analysis on this one? Why not simply ignore it as a product of the background radiation? Why is it interesting to us to begin with? it is interesting to us to begin with because it specifies the primes between 1 and 100. Why are the primes between 1 and 100 interesting? There is one and only one reason they are interesting -- they are a case of complex specified information. You refuse to admit the obvious -- that the only reason we would think this signal to be interesting to begin with -- the only reason you would start to perform Bayesian analysis -- is that you have already made at least a preliminary design inference based on the fact that the signal contains CSI. Again, I do not believe you are lying to me or anyone else. I believe your faith commitments are so strong they do not allow you to see the obvious. Now, to suggest that Bill Dembski believes that intelligence can be non-intentional, I do believe you are being dishonest in the normal sense of the word about that.Barry Arrington
August 15, 2011
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What any design detection method does is locate a likely design candidate, and then changes the heuristic one uses in further examination of said phenomena from one of finding natural causes to one of finding intelligent purpose, origin, fabrication methods, etc Seems like a reasonable approach. It is not the one ID uses which makes it a matter of principle to detect design without locating a likely design candidate.markf
August 15, 2011
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kf, thanks for your responses. I hugely appreciate your engagement with the actual content of my remarks. I will try to return the courtesy, but it may take me a while.Elizabeth Liddle
August 15, 2011
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Well, in computer programs, obviously, but using "heritable" metaphorically, in the sense that characteristics from one iteration are preserved, with modification, in the next. Other examples might be beach formation, some crystal processes, weather systems. But biological systems are the most obvious, and at many scales, from within brains to within populations to within ecosystems. Prions are an interesting example.Elizabeth Liddle
August 15, 2011
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Meleager, if you have been following my posts, you will know that at no time have I said that design detection is not "valid", in principle or that intelligent design cannot be detected without knowledge of the particulars of the designing agency. I think a number of invalid methods have been advanced by ID proponents for inferring design, and ironically, on several occasions I've said that I think that CSI is far too conservative. It produces way too many false negatives. It also, IMO, produces false positives, but that, is, I think, because it is not a signature or intentional design but of a particular system of contingencies-with-feedback.
What any design detection method does is locate a likely design candidate, and then changes the heuristic one uses in further examination of said phenomena from one of finding natural causes to one of finding intelligent purpose, origin, fabrication methods, etc.
Well, except that I think that you need to iterate between the two things, constantly adjusting your priors on both (likelihood of design; likelihood of fabrication method) to allow a well-fitting model to emerge. But, basically, yes.Elizabeth Liddle
August 15, 2011
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MarkF said:
As I understand it, you think that Lizzie is using ID principles to detect design without admitting it.
What difference does it make if she's using some other design inference method? The fact is, she just admitted that design detection valid, and that intelligent design can be detected without knowledge of the particulars of the designing agency or process. What any design detection method does is locate a likely design candidate, and then changes the heuristic one uses in further examination of said phenomena from one of finding natural causes to one of finding intelligent purpose, origin, fabrication methods, etc.Meleagar
August 15, 2011
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Elizabeth said:
"And so, faced with a pattern that has CSI (and not all designed things do), the first thing I’d ask is: does it replicate with heritable variance in the ability to replicate? If so, I have a candidate for CSI generation right there."
Outside of the phenomena under debate (life), where do you find systems of heritable variance with feedback mechanisms?Meleagar
August 15, 2011
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Fortunately visitors can read the discussion that led to the accusation and determine that you are not being dishonest, but mud sticks, as they say, which is probably the point.DrBot
August 15, 2011
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Dr Liddle (& MF etal): Kindly see 1.1 ff above, re Bayesianism etc. This is an old issue at UD, and the balance on merits is not as you imagine or suggest. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 15, 2011
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Darwin, as the edns of Origin went through, was. It can be seen in the commonly available 6th edn. I know there is some report of strange issues that lead to a sort of low level neo-Lamarckianism today.kairosfocus
August 15, 2011
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Thanks Mark. Yes, that's well put. The difference between a Bayesian and a Frequentist inference is important here, and CSI is a frequentist concept. I used the former, not the latter. That was my point.Elizabeth Liddle
August 15, 2011
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Barry, you have accused me of dishonesty. It does not "require honest dialogue" for you to honour my request, which was to explain to me why you asserted that I was being dishonest. It simply requires you to do what anyone making such a charge is obligated to do - to explain the charge. As for the honest dialogue - you are assuming your consequent here, in a way that would make Kafka proud. You accuse me of dishonesty then refuse to tell me why thou think I have been dishonest on the grounds that for you to do this would require "honest dialogue", the very thing you imply I am not capable of. huh? Barry, as I said in Vincent's thread, I post under my own name here. I did so because I did not wish to hide my identity - I am honest enough, in other words (not that I think there is anything wrong with web anonymity, though it is usually easy enough to breach) to want to be completely open about who I am and what I think. I assume you also use your own name, as do Denyse, Vincent, Gil and, of course William Dembski. But you have made a serious allegation about my personal integrity, in an easily googled-comment on a site with a high google ranking. The least you can do is to support it in a manner in which I can respond. All I can do, in the absence of such support, is to insist on my innocence. Please honour my request.Elizabeth Liddle
August 15, 2011
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Barry I think that you have not understood Lizzie's point and that is why you think she is being dishonest.  I have similar (but not identical) views to her  - so I hope she  won't mind if I try to explain. As I understand it, you think that Lizzie is using ID principles to detect design without admitting it.  However, there are key differences in the way she and I conclude design from the way that e.g. William Dembski concludes design.  We might in specific cases, such as the prime number sequences, come to the same conclusion but we get there a different way. We both use Bayesian inference while Dembski (and presumably you) use a rather odd variation on old-fashioned Fisherian hypothesis testing.  You deduce design by calculating the probability of an outcome conforming to some specification given what you believe to be the only reasonable chance hypothesis.  In this case the probability of a string of prime numbers assuming all number strings are equally likely. Bayesians deduce design by considering a range of hypotheses and considering not only the relative likelihood of the outcome given each hypothesis but also the prior probability of each hypothesis.  In this case hypotheses under consideration might include: 1. Alien civilisation sending radio message intentionally or accidentally 2. Natural radio source generating numbers with no pattern which just happen to correspond to the first 100 prime numbers 3. Natural radio source which is heavily biased to emit prime numbers (perhaps only emits prime numbers) 4. Reflection of prime number sequence generated by our own planet so it appears to come from space There may well be others which have just not occurred to us. Each of these has its own prior probability which is then modified by the likelihood of receiving that specific sequence given that hypothesis. I think we all agree the likelihood of the outcome given hypothesis 2 is so low compared to the others we can dismiss it – even though the prior is very high. The prior probability of 1 is hard to estimate. It can only be based on things like the number of stars, how many are known to have planets, and personal estimates of the chances of alien civilisation developing on another planet.  But it is not zero.  (I personally think the likelihood of the outcome given 1 is lower than most take for granted – but that is my interpretation.) My personal favourite is 4 – which seems to have a highish prior and likelihood compared to the others.  But I don’t think the prior for 3 is so very low.  I think of the hypothesised processes which lead to the periodic cicadas having periods which are prime numbers. But the point is that this is a very different process from the idiosyncratic methodology which is ID.  It considers specific hypotheses – an alien civilisation, not design in general – and assesses each one using acknowledged processes for rational inference. I fear the result of this overlong comment will be something about intellectual dishonesty or faith or irrationality – but with luck others readers may disagree.markf
August 15, 2011
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"most Darwinists, while publicly anti-Lamarckian, and really ultra-Lamarckians under the hood." Citation needed.paragwinn
August 15, 2011
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series = serious. It's early here.Prof. FX Gumby
August 15, 2011
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Barry, an accusation of dishonesty is a series one to level at a scientist. It completely undermines credibility and if it sticks, it ruins careers. As such, it's now your strong moral obligation to explain why you think Elizabeth is being dishonest. For a blog that values civility highly, the levels of civility shown to Elizabeth by some commenters (and posters) here are disappointing.Prof. FX Gumby
August 14, 2011
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F/N 2: The Chi metrics are DESIGNED to give negative values for events in the observable cosmos [or at least our solar system] that are reachable by chance and/or mechanical necessity. For instance take Chi_500 = I*S - 500 a: If I by something like I = - log p or a weighted sum as Shannon's H estimates or by direct count is under 500, this will be negative, not complex enough. b: If I is over 500, then there is a possibility of a positive result, i.e a verdict not plausible on chance, on the 1 light month needle in the haystack search standard. c: If the matter is driven by necessity, e.g crystal face as opposed to optically flat polycrystalline surface, I would be low or zero, so we would be negative. d: If any old combination would do, or something that is typical of the bulk of the set of possibilities W, S would be zero, putting Chi negative again. e: Only where the observed case E comes from a complex [beyond 500 bits] specific, describable and narrow zone T in W, such that needle in haystack issues apply,can we go positive. f: this is routinely achieved for intelligent products such as posts in this thread beyond 72 ASCII characters, which are in English and responsive to a context, while being complex beyond 500 bits. _______ So, the asterisked objection in 1 fails.kairosfocus
August 14, 2011
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