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Lutheran religious studies prof asks, Is methodological naturalism racist?

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Robert F. Shedinger came across an open access 2020 paper in Social Psychology of Education, “Why are there so few ethnic minorities in ecology and evolutionary biology? Challenges to inclusion and the role of sense of belonging” which brought up something you are not likely to hear from the
Darwin Lobby:

It is well established that people of color are poorly represented in STEM fields compared with their representation in the larger population. That is for a host of complex sociological and economic reasons. But even taking this into consideration, the authors note that African Americans are even more poorly represented in EEB [ecology and evolutionary biology] fields in comparison with non-EEB fields of biology. This extremely poor representation in EEB cannot be explained by the factors leading to underrepresentation in STEM fields, so there must be something else going on.

To find out what, the authors surveyed a sample of college undergraduates from different racial and ethnic groups about their attitudes towards STEM in general and EEB in particular. The findings point to a number of factors, especially among African Americans, leading to a sense of not belonging in the culture of the EEB community. Two of these factors were a greater tendency toward religiosity and moral objections to evolution.

Surprisingly, and contrary to the expectations of the authors, African American (as well as Latino) undergraduates expressed a greater desire than white students to seek advanced education in ecology and evolutionary biology. Yet despite their interest level, the perceived lack of belonging they would experience in the EEB community appears to prevent their actual pursuit of advanced education (in 2014 African Americans earned fewer than 2 percent of PhDs granted in EEB fields but 5.1 percent in non-EEB subfields of biology).

As the authors note, African Americans consistently score higher on surveys of religiosity than the general population. This will not be surprising to anyone familiar with the African American church tradition. But African American undergraduates seem to be aware of the absolute requirement that EEB research be done in accordance with methodological (and de facto metaphysical) naturalism. Their religious inclinations will therefore be in conflict with the culture within the EEB community and it will be difficult for them to feel a sense of belonging in that community. The same with their moral objections to evolution, moral objections that are well founded in the African American experience (see Human Zoos). The demands of methodological naturalism thus become an impediment to the greater participation of people of color in ecology and evolutionary biology. What insights might we be losing as a result?

Robert F. Shedinger, “Is Methodological Naturalism Racist?” at Evolution News and Science Today (August 27, 2021)

When Shedinger asks, “What insights might we be losing as a result?”, one wants to ask, “Who is the ‘we’”? The Darwinians don’t want insights; they want control. Yes, the rest of us are losing insights but that hardly counts. Breaking the stranglehold sounds like a team effort.

It’s an interesting discussion of the findings in the light of the recent op-ed in Scientific American claiming that creationism was based on white supremacy.

See also: At Evolution News and Science Today: The casual racism of Charles Darwin. Shedinger calls Allison Hopper’s piece in Scientific American, “startlingly vacuous,” which raises — once again — the question of why on earth the mag published it. It’s not as if there is no scholarship on the topic of Darwin and racism. Did the editors not want to address that scholarship? Well, we can’t read minds but we can make some reasonable guesses. How about: Create a big uproar and hope everyone will focus on that and not on the topic at hand? Shedinger also notes perceptively, “One does not become racist because of the view one holds on human origins. One becomes racist for other complex reasons and then reads that racism back into whatever view on human origins you hold.”

Comments
Bob O'H
SA @ 38 – I never wrote “that Newton’s mix of material and theological method was “necessary for science”, so please stop making stuff up. Also, you can’t prove assumptions. By, well, definition.
You stated that methodological naturalism is "necessary" for science. Now you're saying that Newton's contrary view never was necessary for science. Ok, that's even more interesting and weird. You determined somehow, that your view is today necessary. But Newton's view during his life was not necessary. You point out that I'm making things up, but I'm just trying to fill in the very large and seemingly contradictory gaps in your view. Referencing another thread where you offered to write a post explaining your views in detail - here's a good place for you to do such. Question: How did you determine that the methodological naturalist assumption is today necessary, but had you been living during Newton's time would have insisted that his methodology (which conflicts with MN) was not necessary? In discussions like this, it's best to spell out your views in as much detail as you can. Cryptic on-liners only create a lot more guesswork for your readers. It's best to just say exactly what you mean. If we miss the point, clarify. In this case, you said I made a mistake about your view - but offered zero additional information to correct it. In fact, I had to restate the whole dialogue just to get this far. Yes, you cannot prove assumptions. Therefore you need a reason to adopt any one of them. Why do you think methodological naturalism offers more insight than a view which is open to non-naturalistic causes?Silver Asiatic
August 31, 2021
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ba77 @ 37 -
Naturalism has no place in science.,,, PERIOD!
I think we can consider the shark jumped here. Your "naturalism isn't part of science because people made machines" is a non sequitur. Even if a telescope was poofed into existence by the telescope fairy, we would still know how it worked, because of the entirely naturalistic physical theories of optics. SA @ 38 - I never wrote "that Newton’s mix of material and theological method was “necessary for science”, so please stop making stuff up. Also, you can't prove assumptions. By, well, definition.
But I think you’re agreeing that science could start with that assumption instead of a materialist one – so that’s good progress.
No I'm not. Please stop making up stuff about me. I wanted to know how you think science could be done without methodological naturalism, because I can't see how it could work. That may be because of my limitations, so I would be happy to see a non-materialistic scientific epistemology that didn't suffer from the criticism that it use "goddidit" as an ad hoc explanation. ET - that isn't MN. HTH.Bob O'H
August 31, 2021
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This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.- Sir Isaac Newton in Principia
If THAT is MN then there isn't any difference between MN and no MN.ET
August 31, 2021
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Human thought continues to move on and progress beyond worn-out ideas. Like moving beyond 19th century materialism and uncovering frauds and absurdities that had been propped up in the name of anti-theism. ID is moving science to a better, more productive future.Silver Asiatic
August 31, 2021
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Bob O'H
Science makes a lot of wrong assumptions that are necessary (like, well, pretty much all of them). MN is necessary for science, and as an assumption it actually works. To deny that is to deny the advances that science has made. So, even if it is ultimately false, it’s locally true, or at least true enough for us to send rockets to the moon, have GPS, create effective vaccines against infectious diseases like smallpox and Covid-19.
I think it's important for you to recognize the point and not just dig your heels and start redefining terms. You present "locally true" and a pragmatic test as equivalent to "necessary for science". But necessary means "a required element without which science would be impossible". So you contradict with your previous statement about Newton's scientific principles. To say that Newton's mix of material and theological method was "necessary for science" but then it later was rejected means it was not necessary for science. The fact is, we can do science under many different assumptions and if all are wrong, then none are necessary for science. We abandoned Newton's method and science persists - so his method wasn't necessary. The same is true for methodological naturalism. It's an unproven assumption and it can be exchanged for another. The science of Aristotle in the 4th century BC was "good enough" for them also. But the thing is, like all human generations, eventually people wanted something better. The same is true now - people want something better than Darwinism and Multiverse fairy tales. So, we look to change the methodology, since materialism does not work on multiple levels.
How would you do science without MN? If you start with “God exists and is the first cause of the universe”, what’s to make you go any further than “Goddidit”?
It's a strange understanding of God. It seems your view is, "If God exists, why would I need to get out of bed in the morning?" But I think you're agreeing that science could start with that assumption instead of a materialist one - so that's good progress.Silver Asiatic
August 31, 2021
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per Bob at 35, Actually Bob it is atheists, such as yourself, (from David Hume onward), who are the ones who have purposely "blurred the lines" so as to falsely make it appear as if naturalism has anything whatsoever to do with the practice of modern science. Naturalism has no place in science.,,, PERIOD! No place as either a staring philosophical assumption in science, or in one's 'method/practice' of science, or as a conclusion to be drawn from the scientific evidence. i.e. Through and through, Naturalism has no place in science and is, in fact, worse than useless in science as a guiding heuristic for science. As to my first point, i.e. Naturalism is not the starting philosophical presupposition of science,,,,, to repeat, science was born out of essential Theistic, even Christian presuppositions. (See post 3). Naturalism had NOTHING whatsoever to do with the founding of modern science. PERIOD! And since you have now tried to sully Isaac Newton's name with your rotting and worm-infested philosophy of atheistic naturalism, here is a recent video by Dr. Stephen Meyer, who holds a PhD in the philosophy of science from Cambridge, (Newton's alma mater), discussing Newton's philosophical/Theological frame of mind when he first made his breakthrough discoveries that led to the founding of modern physics
Wrong Again: Neil deGrasse Tyson Misrepresents Legacy of Sir Isaac Newton - Stephen Meyer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgohHoK9mQo
As to my second point, i.e. Naturalism has no place in one's method/practice of science, The practice of science is certainly not to be considered a 'natural' endeavor of man. In fact, every experiment that has ever been conducted presupposes Intelligent Design and certainly does not presuppose Naturalism
From the essential Christian presuppositions that undergird the founding of modern science itself, (namely that the universe is contingent and rational in its foundational nature and that the minds of men, being made in the ‘image of God’, can, therefore, dare understand the rationality that God has imparted onto the universe), to the intelligent design of the scientific instruments and experiments themselves, to the logical and mathematical analysis of experimental results themselves, from top to bottom, science itself is certainly not to be considered a ‘natural’ endeavor of man. Not one scientific instrument would ever exist if men did not first intelligently design that scientific instrument. Not one test tube, microscope, telescope, spectroscope, or etc.. etc.., was ever found just laying around on a beach somewhere which was ‘naturally’ constructed by nature. Not one experimental result would ever be rationally analyzed since there would be no immaterial minds to rationally analyze the immaterial logic and immaterial mathematics that lay behind the intelligently designed experiments in the first place. Again, all of science, every nook and cranny of it, is based on the presupposition of intelligent design and is certainly not based on the presupposition of methodological naturalism.
. If Bob disagrees with my claim that every experiment ever conducted presupposes Intelligent Design and does not presuppose naturalism, here's an easy way for him to disprove my claim, ,,, Bob, name one scientific instrument that was created by naturalistic processes and that was not intelligently designed.
Examples of scientific instruments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_instrument#Examples_of_scientific_instruments
As to my third point, i.e. Naturalism is not a conclusion to be drawn from the scientific evidence. Time and Time again, the scientific evidence itself has falsified naturalistic and/or Darwinian presuppositions, but Naturalists/Darwinists simply refuse to ever accept any scientific that falsifies their theory. Here are a few falsifications that they simply refuse to accept as falsifications of their theory
Darwin’s theory holds mutations to the genome to be random. The vast majority of mutations to the genome are not random but are found to be ‘directed’. Darwin’s theory holds that Natural Selection is the ‘designer substitute’ that produces the ‘appearance’ and/or illusion of design. Natural Selection, especially for multicellular organisms, is found to grossly inadequate as the ‘designer substitute. Darwin’s theory holds that mutations to DNA will eventually change the basic biological form of any given species into a new form of a brand new species. Yet, biological form is found to be irreducible to mutations to DNA, nor is biological form reducible to any other material particulars in biology one may wish to invoke. Darwin’s theory holds there to be an extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial, information building, mutations whatsoever. Charles Darwin himself held that the gradual unfolding of life would (someday) be self-evident in the fossil record. Yet, from the Cambrian Explosion onward, the fossil record is consistently characterized by sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record(disparity), then rapid diversity within that group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. Moreover, Fossils are found in the “wrong place” all the time (either too early, or too late). Darwin’s theory, due to the randomness postulate, holds that patterns will not repeat themselves in supposedly widely divergent species. Yet thousands of instances of what is ironically called ‘convergent evolution’, on both the morphological and genetic level, falsifies the Darwinian belief that patterns will not repeat themselves in widely divergent species. Charles Darwin himself stated that “If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” Yet as Doug Axe pointed out, “Basically every gene and every new protein fold, there is nothing of significance that we can show that can be had in that gradualistic way. It’s all a mirage. None of it happens that way.” Charles Darwin himself stated that “If it could be proved that any part of the structure of any one species had been formed for the exclusive good of another species, it would annihilate my theory, for such could not have been produced through natural selection.” Yet as Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig pointed out, “in thousands of plant species often entirely new organs have been formed for the exclusive good of more than 132,930 other species, these ‘ugly facts’ have annihilated Darwin’s theory as well as the modern versions of it.” Charles Darwin himself stated that, ““The impossibility of conceiving that this grand and wondrous universe, with our conscious selves, arose through chance, seems to me the chief argument for the existence of God.”. Yet ‘our conscious selves’ are certainly not explainable by ‘chance’ (nor is consciousness explainable by any possible reductive materialistic explanation in general), i.e. ‘the hard problem of consciousness’. Besides the mathematics of probability consistently showing that Darwinian evolution is impossible, the mathematics of population genetics itself has now shown Darwinian evolution to be impossible. Moreover, ‘immaterial’ mathematics itself, which undergirds all of science, engineering and technology, is held by most mathematicians to exist in some timeless, unchanging, immaterial, Platonic realm. Yet, the reductive materialism that Darwinian theory is based upon denies the existence of the immaterial realm that mathematics exists in. i.e. Darwinian evolution actually denies the objective reality of the one thing, i.e. mathematics, that it most needs in order to be considered scientific in the first place! Donald Hoffman has, via population genetics, shown that if Darwin’s materialistic theory were true then all our observations of reality would be illusory. Yet the scientific method itself is based on reliable observation. Moreover, Quantum Mechanics itself has now shown that conscious observation must come before material reality, i.e. falsification of ‘realism’ proves that our conscious observations are reliable!. The reductive materialism that undergirds Darwinian thought holds that immaterial information is merely ’emergent’ from a material basis. Yet immaterial Information, via experimental realization of the “Maxwell’s Demon” thought experiment, is now found to be its own distinctive physical entity that, although it can interact in a ‘top down’ manner with matter and energy, is separate from matter and energy. Darwinists hold that Darwin’s theory is true. Yet ‘Truth’ itself is an abstract property of an immaterial mind that is irreducible to the reductive materialistic explanations of Darwinian evolution. i.e. Assuming reductive materialism and/or Naturalism as the starting philosophical position of science actually precludes ‘the truth’ from ever being reached by science! Darwinist’s, due to their underlying naturalistic philosophy, insist that teleology (i.e. goal directed purpose) does not exist. Yet it is impossible for Biologists to do biological research without constantly invoking words that directly imply teleology. i.e. The very words that Biologists themselves use when they are doing their research falsifies Darwinian evolution.
Verse:
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
Besides Darwinian Naturalists refusing to adhere to the criteria of falsification for their supposedly scientific theory, by any other reasonable measure that one may wish to judge whether Darwinian evolution even qualifies as a science or not, Darwinian evolution fails to meet those criteria as well:
“There are five standard tests for a scientific hypothesis. Has anyone observed the phenomenon — in this case, Evolution — as it occurred and recorded it? Could other scientists replicate it? Could any of them come up with a set of facts that, if true, would contradict the theory (Karl Popper’s “falsifiability” tests)? Could scientists make predictions based on it? Did it illuminate hitherto unknown or baffling areas of science? In the case of Evolution… well… no… no… no… no… and no.” – Tom Wolfe – The Kingdom of Speech – page 17
There is simply nothing that Darwinists can point to within their Naturalistic theory and say, ‘and this is what makes Darwinian evolution a hard, testable, science and not a pseudoscience’.
Top Ten Questions and Objections to 'Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics' - Robert J. Marks II - June 12, 2017 Excerpt: Hard sciences are built on foundations of mathematics or definitive simulations. Examples include electromagnetics, Newtonian mechanics, geophysics, relativity, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, optics, and many areas in biology. Those hoping to establish Darwinian evolution as a hard science with a model have either failed or inadvertently cheated. These models contain guidance mechanisms to land the airplane squarely on the target runway despite stochastic wind gusts. Not only can the guiding assistance be specifically identified in each proposed evolution model, its contribution to the success can be measured, in bits, as active information.,,, ,,, there exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. According to our current understanding, there never will be.,,, https://evolutionnews.org/2017/06/top-ten-questions-and-objections-to-introduction-to-evolutionary-informatics/
Simply put, Darwinian evolution is more properly classified as a pseudoscience, even as a Naturalistic religion for atheists, rather than ever being classified as a real and testable science.bornagain77
August 31, 2021
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Bob O'H:
You don’t know what methodological naturalism is:
I know what MN is, Bob. And you will never be able to show otherwise.
Newton clearly wasn’t a philosophical naturalist, but in his experiments used a methodological naturalist approach.
Prove it. You don't just get to say it. Yes, human thought has moved on from those great scientists to the nonsense you and yours promote. Not a good thing. Those scientists would laugh at the nonsense you and yours push as science.ET
August 31, 2021
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ba77 - you might have missed it, but human thought has moved on a lot since Copernicus, Galileo, Vesalius, Harvey & Newton. That's why I wrote "He probably blurred the lines between the two, in part because it would be a few hundred years before the distinction was formally made (and also because methodological approaches in science became more refined and codified).".Bob O'H
August 31, 2021
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Bob is playing stupid word games, (again), trying to defend the absurd apriori imposition of methodological naturalism onto science by atheists. i.e. "Copernicus, Galileo, Vesalius, Harvey, Newton — would have considered the MN (Methodological Naturalism) dogma absurd and indeed rather peculiar. In fact, James Hannam has recently examined this issue in some detail and found that religion, far from being antagonistic or an impediment to science, was an integral part of its advance in the Western world "
Intelligent Design as a “Science Stopper”? Here’s the Real Story – Michael Flannery – August 20, 2011 Excerpt: If the “ID is a science stopper” argument rests on weak philosophical foundations, its historical underpinnings are even shakier. The leading natural philosophers (what we would call “scientists” today) of the 16th through 18th centuries, the men who established modern science as we know it — Copernicus, Galileo, Vesalius, Harvey, Newton — would have considered the MN (Methodological Naturalism) dogma absurd and indeed rather peculiar. In fact, James Hannam has recently examined this issue in some detail and found that religion, far from being antagonistic or an impediment to science, was an integral part of its advance in the Western world (see my earlier ENV article on the subject). https://evolutionnews.org/2011/08/id_a_science_stopper_heres_the/
bornagain77
August 31, 2021
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ET @ 29 -
Sir Isaac Newton was an accomplished scientist. Clearly he did NOT adhere to methodological naturalism as he saw science as a way of understanding God’s Creation.
Ah, I see. You don't know what methodological naturalism is: you've confused it with philosophical naturalism. Newton clearly wasn't a philosophical naturalist, but in his experiments used a methodological naturalist approach. He probably blurred the lines between the two, in part because it would be a few hundred years before the distinction was formally made (and also because methodological approaches in science became more refined and codified). SA @ 32 - Science makes a lot of wrong assumptions that are necessary (like, well, pretty much all of them). MN is necessary for science, and as an assumption it actually works. To deny that is to deny the advances that science has made. So, even if it is ultimately false, it's locally true, or at least true enough for us to send rockets to the moon, have GPS, create effective vaccines against infectious diseases like smallpox and Covid-19. How would you do science without MN? If you start with “God exists and is the first cause of the universe”, what's to make you go any further than "Goddidit"? What epistemic methods would you use?Bob O'H
August 31, 2021
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Bob
No, it’s not a conclusion, it’s an assumptíon. And it’s a necessary one to do science. It may, of course, be wrong, but it’s difficult to see how science can work without making that assumption.
You're saying that it is a necessary assumption that may be wrong. But if it could be wrong, then no - it can't be a necessary assumption to hold. Because if it was found to be wrong, you'd have to say that "science necessarily must be founded on a false premise". So, you're overstating your case - making the assumption "necessary". That's exactly the kind of dogmatism that we're talking about. Let's go back to the beginning: it's an assumption. Science does not require it, but certain people insist upon it. Science could just as easily start with the assumption: "God exists and is the first cause of the universe". Why not? There is more support for that assumption than for the idea that "all natural effects emerge blind, unintelligent material causes". What's the evidence to support that?Silver Asiatic
August 30, 2021
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Bob states that "Well yes. Things do happen for a reason." Well actually Bob, your naturalistic worldview holds, as a foundational assumption, that things happen for no reason whatsoever. Do you, as an atheist, think that the supposed random quantum fluctuation that created the universe in the atheist's inflation model happened for any particular reason whatsoever? To paraphrase Dawkins, there can be, in principle, 'no rhyme nor reason' for why any 'pitilessly indifferent' random quantum fluctuation may have happened. To drive the fact home that atheistic naturalists hold, as a foundational assumption, that things can happen for no reason whatsoever, I refer, via Dr. Bruce Gordon, to the Boltzmann brain problem for atheists,, to quote Dr Gordon "For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the “Boltzmann Brain” problem: In the most “reasonable” models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. "
BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: ,,,The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world,,,?Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.” Anything else invokes random miracles as an explanatory principle and spells the end of scientific rationality. Nowhere is this destructive consequence more evident than in the machinations of multiverse cosmology to “explain” cosmological fine-tuning. Cosmic inflation is invoked to “explain” why our universe is so flat and its background radiation so uniform. All possible solutions of string theory are invoked to “explain” the incredible fine-tuning of the cosmological constant. But the evidence for cosmic inflation is both thin and equivocal; the evidence for string theory and its extension, M-theory, is nonexistent; and the idea that conjoining them demonstrates that we live in a multiverse of bubble universes with different laws and constants is a mathematical fantasy. What is worse, multiplying without limit the opportunities for any event to happen in the context of a multiverse - where it is alleged that anything can spontaneously jump into existence without cause - produces a situation in which no absurdity is beyond the pale. For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the “Boltzmann Brain” problem: In the most “reasonable” models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. ?Universes do not “spontaneously create” on the basis of abstract mathematical descriptions, nor does the fantasy of a limitless multiverse trump the explanatory power of transcendent intelligent design. What Mr. Hawking’s contrary assertions show is that mathematical savants can sometimes be metaphysical simpletons. Caveat emptor. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/
To drive the point even further home that atheistic naturalists hold, as a foundational assumption, that things can happen for no reason whatsoever, I refer to their outright denial of teleology and mind, To quote Dr. Egnor, "It is purpose that must be denied in order to deny design in nature. So the mind, as well as teleology, must be denied. Eliminative materialism is just Darwinian metaphysics carried to its logical end and applied to man. If there is no teleology, there is no intentionality, and there is no purpose in nature nor in man’s thoughts."
Teleology and the Mind - Michael Egnor - August 16, 2016 Excerpt: In this sense, eliminative materialism is necessary if a materialist is to maintain a non-teleological Darwinian metaphysical perspective. It is purpose that must be denied in order to deny design in nature. So the mind, as well as teleology, must be denied. Eliminative materialism is just Darwinian metaphysics carried to its logical end and applied to man. If there is no teleology, there is no intentionality, and there is no purpose in nature nor in man’s thoughts. The link between intentionality and teleology, and the undeniability of teleology, is even more clear if we consider our inescapable belief that other people have minds. The inference that other people have minds based on their purposeful (intentional-teleological) behavior, which is obviously correct and is essential to living a sane life, can be applied to our understanding of nature as well. Just as we know that other people have purposes (intentionality), we know just as certainly that nature has purposes (teleology). In a sense, intelligent design is the recognition of the same purpose-teleology-intentionality in nature that we recognize in ourselves and others. Teleology and intentionality are certainly the inferences to be drawn from the obvious purposeful arrangement of parts in nature, but I (as a loyal Thomist!) believe that teleology and intentionality are manifest in an even more fundamental way in nature. Any goal-directed natural change is teleological, even if purpose and arrangement of parts is not clearly manifest. The behavior of a single electron orbiting a proton is teleological, because the motion of the electron hews to specific ends (according to quantum mechanics). A pencil falling to the floor behaves teleologically (it does not fall up, or burst into flame, etc.). Purposeful arrangement of parts is teleology on an even more sophisticated scale, but teleology exists in even the most basic processes in nature. Physics is no less teleological than biology. https://evolutionnews.org/2016/08/teleology_and_t/
I could go a lot further in showing how atheistic naturalism is inherently, and deeply, irrational in its foundational basis, but suffice it for now to say that if Bob truly believes that "Well yes. Things do happen for a reason" then Bob should immediately abandon his worldview of atheistic naturalism which holds, as a foundational and primary assumption, that things happen for no reason whatsoever.bornagain77
August 30, 2021
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And as Jerry said, it also question begging. You can only say that materialistic processes produced Stonehenge, for example, if you can show that materialistic processes produced life. So it's all just a mind game, anyway. And a mind game played by fools.ET
August 30, 2021
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Bob O'H:
No, it’s not a conclusion, it’s an assumptíon. And it’s a necessary one to do science. It may, of course, be wrong, but it’s difficult to see how science can work without making that assumption.
It is a conclusion, Bob. The assumption leads to the conclusion, Bob. Science works via observations and the ability to test our hypotheses on how things came to be the way they are. If you can't test it, it ain't science. And no one can test the claim that materialistic processes produced life or the genetic code. So methodological naturalism fails. It forces us to keep plugging away at the impossible just because we are not allowed to think beyond it's arbitrary box. Sir Isaac Newton was an accomplished scientist. Clearly he did NOT adhere to methodological naturalism as he saw science as a way of understanding God's Creation. We have to follow the evidence. And if that leads to something beyond nature, then so be it.ET
August 30, 2021
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Bornagain77, Thanks for the revised link to the video, Jesus Christ as the correct "Theory of Everything. There are some profound quotes in it. I appreciated the quote from Professor Andrew Truscott of ANU that their experimental results
. . . proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you're not looking at it.
The video also included a number of similar quotes that all point to the fundamental nature of existence below the Logos, consisting of • Consciousness • Information and entanglement (including the entanglement of the experimenter, equipment, and quantum phenomena) • Observation/measurement • Free-will choice (as per Anton Zeilinger) Derivative factors include such things as • Causality • Probabilities • Space-time and gravity • Mass-energy • Entropy • Chaos dynamics Max Planck also noted the hand of God in our experienced existence.
Both religion and science require a belief in God. For believers, God is in the beginning, and for physicists, He is at the end of all considerations . . . To the former, He is the foundation, to the latter, the crown of the edifice of every generalized world view. – Max Planck, 1931
It seems to me that the Logos created a mathematical probability field as a sandbox for our consciousness where our choices ripple through it and reveal our true selves. Jesus gave a hint of this when he told Pilate that "My kingdom is not of this world," and
If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous wealth, who will entrust to you the true riches? - Luke 16:11 (ESV)
Thanks again, -QQuerius
August 30, 2021
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Ultimate Reality is not accesible for science and by science. Science is child play. If somebody is looking for Reality should start browsing the 3-4 big religions of the world ,chose the most credible one(not the most easy one) and start practicing , learning and praying. PS: I know is more difficult and painful to change completely your life than bragging about "science" that is worthless to find The Ultimate Reality.Lieutenant Commander Data
August 30, 2021
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Bob- science can only assume there was a cause for observed effects.
Well yes. Things do happen for a reason.
Science only cares about ONE thing-> REALITY. That is, what really happened to produce the effect/ structure/ phenomena/ object being investigated. That is why we investigate. And the investigation CANNOT start out with a conclusion of “only materialistic processes can be considered”.
No, it's not a conclusion, it's an assumptíon. And it's a necessary one to do science. It may, of course, be wrong, but it's difficult to see how science can work without making that assumption.Bob O'H
August 30, 2021
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Silver Asiatic @22,
However, what the naturalist method is saying is “we will assume that all effects are caused by material causes”. Thus, everything that is observable in the universe (or even beyond it) is caused by a naturalist, materialist cause. By definition, it has removed all other causes from ever having an effect.
Good point! And then it remains a mystery what the naturalistic/materialistic cause is of gravity, space-time, quantum entanglement and wavefunction collapse, the Cambrian Explosion, etc. even when faced with overwhelming evidence of non-material causes. Instead, we're supposed to have faith in the God-like qualities of the assumed multiverse. -QQuerius
August 30, 2021
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Jerry @21, . . . which is exactly the case in quantum mechanics. In Thomas V. Marcella's recent book, Quantum Entanglement and The Loss of Reality, https://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Entanglement-Reality-Thomas-Marcella/dp/198180742X Marcella asserts that, for example, electrons aren't "real" in the same sense that we think of a baseball being real. Unfortunately, physics is still being taught at the level of 19th century steamships and biology at the level of the 19th century racist theory of evolution, vestigial organs, and junk DNA. What we think of as real and material is fundamentally the effect of quantum entanglement between mathematical probabilities known as wave functions. -QQuerius
August 30, 2021
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I stated, "Bob, to assume methodological naturalism as a starting assumption in science is to de facto assume that philosophical naturalism is true as a starting assumption for science." Bob retorts, "Not so. The alternative is to take the stance that science can only investigate certain aspects of the universe.,,," HUH??? So if you actually meant what your words actually say,, according to your logic, falsely restricting science so that only naturalistic causes are ever allowed to be invoked is to prevent science from investigating "only certain aspects of the universe.,,,"? YOU"VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! That is exactly what methodological naturalism does, it artificially restricts science to invoking only naturalistic causes "in spite of the patent absurdity,",, "no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying,,,"
"Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen. " - Lewontin
Methodological Naturalism is an absurd and artificial restriction on science that atheists invoke for the plain and simple reason that the science simply does not support atheistic naturalism. i.e. If they ever allowed a 'Divine Foot in the door', the game would be over for them. So they have to rig the game before the game even starts and the scientific evidence is honestly evaluated on its own merits in an unbiased manner. Moreover, to repeat, I can get along quite well in science without assuming naturalism, but there are certain theistic presuppositions that are essential for doing science, post 3bornagain77
August 30, 2021
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Bob O'H
It only assumes that it can study material causes. A lot of scientists think that there are other causes (e.g. the large number of theists). The point is that science is unable to study these. And that’s fine: if we see science as a tool for study the natural world, then methodological naturalism circumscribes what it can study.
It's a great point for discussion and I appreciate your analysis. Yes, as you state it, that's the standard understanding and hypothetically that would be the correct way to proceed. Science should study nature (therefore naturalism) and be limited to those sorts of causes. But after that hypothesis, immediately we begin to drift. There are many reasons why this does not work in the real world and even though the proposal (only natural causes) seems reasonable, it ends up quite twisted and unworkable in the end (and also the means for manipulating people and science itself). For example, you state ...
science assumes material causes: things we can measure, or whose effects we can measure.
Here's where it doesn't work. What we find in nature are the effects of causes. Like gravity - we measure it by its effect. However, what the naturalist method is saying is "we will assume that all effects are caused by material causes". Thus, everything that is observable in the universe (or even beyond it) is caused by a naturalist, materialist cause. By definition, it has removed all other causes from ever having an effect. The proof of this error is that we do not see any scientific papers that remove a materialist cause as a possible source of anything that ever occurs. To say "we're limited to these causes" means you have evaluated other causes. Where does science evaluate the presence and action of other causes well-enough to say that "we have to ignore those"? Science itself cannot create the materialist assumption. That comes from some philosophers or theorists who create this supposed rule. "Science must be limited to natural causes - and we also define what "natural" means". Yes, a consensus agrees with that, but on what basis? There would have to be some reason to say that no other causes could be permitted in science.
Even the multiverse guys assume that multiple universes are material, and can (eventually!) be measured.
That's where it's illogical, since the proposal for a multiverse is to explain the origin of the universe - and the universe by definition is "all material reality". If we could observe another universe it would be part of our own. What the big bang proposal offers is that all matter, energy and space originated from a singularity. The question "what came before the big bang" is given the answer of multiverse, but that's just denying what big bang cosmology shows.Silver Asiatic
August 30, 2021
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science assumes material causes: things we can measure, or whose effects we can measure.
No! Yes, science does measures material things. But causes are another issue. The conclusions/causes don’t have to be material things.jerry
August 30, 2021
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Silver Asiatic Try catalog code 197126 and see if that makes a difference. It was in small print on my email.jerry
August 30, 2021
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Science only cares about ONE thing-> REALITY. That is, what really happened to produce the effect/ structure/ phenomena/ object being investigated. That is why we investigate. And the investigation CANNOT start out with a conclusion of "only materialistic processes can be considered".ET
August 30, 2021
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Bob- science can only assume there was a cause for observed effects. Neuroscientists don't have a materialistic explanation for the existence of a brain. They do not know what starts the firing. Evolutionary biologists don't even know what determines biological form. They can't even formulate a scientific theory of evolution. The genetic code and life are unexplainable via materialistic processes. Information is also unexplainable via materialistic processes. Information is neither matter nor energy.ET
August 30, 2021
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ET - science assumes material causes: things we can measure, or whose effects we can measure. e.g. neuroscientists look at how nerve cells fire, and are arranged in the brain. Evolutionary biologist look at births and deaths, and how genetic composition affects these (and how these affect genetic composition). Even the multiverse guys assume that multiple universes are material, and can (eventually!) be measured.Bob O'H
August 30, 2021
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Shedinger's opening paragraph should have contained the definition of "methodological naturalism". One thing is certain in science- you cannot start out with a conclusion already in hand. That means one cannot exclude the supernatural out-of-hand.ET
August 30, 2021
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Bob O'H:
All of science assumes methodological naturalism, ...
In what way? Please be specific.ET
August 30, 2021
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SA @ 8 -
The study of life offers a much more jarring conflict with materialism.
Irrelevant - we're discussing methodological naturalism, not materialism.
Beyond that, there is no good reason for science to assume materialism for every cause in the universe (and it is illogical to assume it for the cause of the material universe).
It doesn't. It only assumes that it can study material causes. A lot of scientists think that there are other causes (e.g. the large number of theists). The point is that science is unable to study these. And that's fine: if we see science as a tool for study the natural world, then methodological naturalism circumscribes what it can study. Horses for courses and all that. ba77 -
Bob, to assume methodological naturalism as a starting assumption in science is to de facto assume that philosophical naturalism is true as a starting assumption for science.
Not so. The alternative is to take the stance that science can only investigate certain aspects of the universe. See above.Bob O'H
August 30, 2021
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Thanks Querius, here is the corrected link, Jesus Christ as the correct "Theory of Everything" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpn2Vu8--eEbornagain77
August 30, 2021
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