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Marks: Non-Computable You Won’t Achieve Immortality Through an AI Machine

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David Klinghoffer reports at Evolution News: What aspects of human beings can’t be duplicated by a computer algorithm? Oh, just a few, including qualia (what life feels like), sentience, understanding, emotion, creativity, consciousness, and spirituality.

Promoters of AI hype vaguely elide these, as Non-Computable You author Robert J. Marks made clear in a presentation at the recent Dallas Conference on Science and Faith. That’s up on YouTube now:

Marks, a distinguished computer engineer at Baylor University, is introduced by mathematician William Dembski, who had the privilege of introducing Dr. Marks himself to intelligent design. A “towering intellect,” as Dr. Dembski puts it, Marks has since becoming a leading thinker in the field.

What does the subject have to do with the intersection of science and faith? One upshot of the argument here is that dreams of achieving immortality by having your consciousness uploaded to an AI machine, merging man and computer in the predicted 2045 “Singularity,” are just that — dreams, never to be achieved. Computers, no matter how fast or futuristic, will only operate by algorithms. Professor Marks cites the Church-Turing Thesis, that “anything you can do on a computer today or a computer of the future could be done on Alan Turing’s original 1938 Turing machine.” What separates these machines is only speed. The computational method won’t change. The most exceptional things about us as humans are not algorithmic, that is, not computable. If immortality can be won, therefore, it will have to be by some other means. Marks believes that he knows what that other means must be. Watch and enjoy.

Comments
My apology, that was JHolo who posted the link to the decline in youth suicide due to legalization of SSM, not Sev.EDTA
July 17, 2022
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From Sev's full linked article on the presumed reduction in suicides in youths due to legalization of same-sex marriage: https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00066-5/pdf "The...analysis indicated that same-sex marriage legalization was associated with a decline in the youth suicide rate of 1.191 deaths per 100,000 individuals (95% CI =-1.66, -0.64; p < .001)." If we apply this rate change to the US (couldn't find any per-nation data attached to Sev's article...using the average over all OECD nations...), would equate to a one-time young lives saved number of ~754 lives. (Same-sex marriage legalization was a one-time effect.) But over roughly the same timespan involved here (~17 - 20 years), the cumulative number of US suicides grew over its (year 2000) baseline by an additional ~92,600 (even after deducting the presumed/extrapolated decreased youth suicides that would have been ostensibly prevented by SSM legalization had that happened sooner in the US). ~92,600 is much larger than ~754, even after factoring in my extrapolations and roundings. This puts a very rough number to a case I have been making here for quite some time: We are lavishing attention on minority groups to the exclusion of the overall health of US society. If we slip into any form of totalitarianism, there will be enough democide/genocide deaths to make 754 youth lives (and 92,600 total lives) saved look like a drop in the bucket in comparison. We clearly do not have enough societal attention/focus/wisdom to solve the big problems, so we're focusing on ones we can solve (in a very fragile manner)--but that make liberals feel oh-so-good about themselves, while letting the US as a whole rot from the core. Nice work!EDTA
July 17, 2022
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To make it simple about the afterlife: the theory - materialism - that would account for why consciousness would end at death has been scientifically disproved via 100 years of quantum physics experimentation.William J Murray
July 17, 2022
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Seversky asks @25:
Just to be clear, I am not urging anyone to commit suicide but the question remains, if the afterlife is so much better why are you waiting around here?
What's the hurry? I'll be dead naturally soon enough. I came here for good reasons, and I want to make sure I get the most out of the experience I can.William J Murray
July 17, 2022
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Seversky @16, More difficult to explain as the "dream-like" personal experience of an NDE is that of SDEs, or shared death experiences. There are several cases when the people in the room with a patient who is in the process of dying have the experience of accompanying they dying person as they make the transition to what is apparently an afterlife. Their reports on the experience entirely correspond to each other, such as seeing the same environment and "dead" people greeting they dying person. This often includes hospice workers who are not even related to the person dying. Further evidence that these are not "dream-like" experiences is the fact that some have occurred while the person's brain activity was being monitored, and there was no recorded activity. They were brain-dead at the time (this is done deliberately in some cases, like with Pam Reynolds.) A materialist explanation requires that the brain would "light up" when one is having these kind of ultra-realistic, high-sensory experiences, but the exact opposite correlation has been shown.William J Murray
July 17, 2022
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JH, the problem is not statistics but your erecting and knocking over a strawman rooted in misinterpretation. Every case of independent intelligent action stands on its own as just that, a separate case; the attempt to conflate them down to one is a crude, tendentious fallacy. (BTW, there are observed non human cases such as beaver dams etc but that is an aside.) Further, the 500 - 1,000 bit threshold is set by looking at blind search resources of the sol system or observed cosmos: it is separately maximally implausible that FSCO/I beyond the threshold would arise by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, on search challenge. We have a phenomenon, FSCO/I, common to the point of trillions of observed cases. In each of these, the cause is intelligently directed configuration. From search challenge, there are no other plausible cases. But, because of, frankly, crooked yardstick thinking, you have strawmannised what we have trillions of observations of to create the impression that what has never been seen to be causally competent and is massively implausible, is the best candidate explanation. That is a backhanded way to acknowledge the explanatory weakness to the point of incompetence of the favoured chance and necessity. Fail. KFkairosfocus
July 16, 2022
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Relatd @ 37, I just meant that our de facto definition of love, etc., is tailor made to fit the rest of our postmodern era's philosophies. It is of course wrong, as are most of our other de facto current-day philosophies. Not disagreeing with you. To others: Yes, some statistics are getting better by some people's measures. But social capital is in decline, and that is a fundamental we depend heavily on without most people even knowing what it is. We are more deeply morally divided than at any time since the Civil War, and that too is getting worse. With great effort, we can solve some moral issues, but the biggest ones continue to fester. Losing the big battles means hard-won battles on the smaller fronts will be immediately lost also. Our priorities are wrong.EDTA
July 16, 2022
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Seversky at 44, Who's stopping you? Conservatives? Are "the majority of the people" actually doing that or is that just a personal perception?relatd
July 16, 2022
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JHolo/38
Given that people can’t agree on what the truth is, I guess we do the best we can. My approach, and that of the majority of people, is to provide the greatest amount of freedom with the least amount of harm. In short, live and let live as long as it causes no harm.
In essence, that is what J S Mill was advocating in On Liberty, that in a free society people should be able to do pretty much what they chose up to the point where it caused harm to the legitimate rights, interests and well-being of other members of that society.Seversky
July 16, 2022
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JHolo/32
The fact that humans can produce 500-1000 bits of functional information is not a trillion cases from a statistically powerful perspective.
As an aside, what do you understand the significance of this 500-1000 bit limit to functional information?Seversky
July 16, 2022
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Please post scientific information that shows gay suicide rates are declining. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33812751/JHolo
July 16, 2022
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JH t 40, So the world is ordered to your liking and the liking of small groups. Have spouses stopped hitting their spouses today? Yes or no. Inter-racial marriages never happened before 'the legal'? Yes or no. Inter-faith marriages? Do you know the strict - non-secular rules - regarding this? Yes or no. Same-sex couples? What do they want? First, domestic partnerships. Rejected. Putting it on the ballot. Rejected. Then the Supreme Court pulls a ruling out of thin air? If it was just about inheritance, hospital visitation and transfer of property, plenty of legal remedies existed but these were rejected. Sexual abuse is no longer being covered up? Really? Just because it has received more visibility does not mean it will stop in some places, such as public schools. Sexual harassment in the workplace? What about it? Abortion rates are lower because a pill was introduced so that women can abort and it's not reported. Women have what? I've worked with outside firms and I care only about a good job being done, nothing more. https://theweek.com/articles/467944/most-common-job-women-same-1950 Please post scientific information that shows gay suicide rates are declining. When did people start being afraid to love the person they love? If you're just referring to homosexuals, I could have dozens of gay couples living in my neighborhood and not know it. Based on my research, gay couples faced problems from their parents. Like being thrown out of the house or their desire to be with someone of the same sex meant a loss of communication between themselves and their parents, and perhaps, other family members. Of the gay people I met, their personal lives were of no concern to me. An acquaintance who went through the procedure that caused him to present as a woman was not someone I was going to lecture. He mentioned the negative attitudes toward others who did what he did. He went on to say he was going to marry his boyfriend. Again, not a situation that called for a lecture or rebuke. As I've written before, no one needs my personal permission to live how they want. But you engage in the usual Leftist tactic of being confrontational. That I might "impose" something on you.relatd
July 16, 2022
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Relatd: That is the harm being done. The results are visible to all.
Yes, people are no longer afraid to love the person they love. Rates of gay suicide are declining. Women have fewer and fewer employment restrictions. Abortion rates are lower now than they were before Roe. Sexual harassment in the workplace now has consequences. The sexual abuse of minors by priests, and people in other positions of authority are no longer being covered up. Spousal assault is no longer legal. Inter-racial marriages are now legal and inter-faith marriages are now common. Same sex couples now have the same protections and responsibilities as opposite sex couples.JHolo
July 16, 2022
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JH at 38, Is that what "the majority of people" are actually doing? Or is this just your personal perception? No harm, as defined by you, translates as "I do whatever I want." That's all. Harm is being done. Harm to standards of public and private conduct. Harm to reason and self-discipline and self-control. Harm to the education of children which must be under the strict control of Total Strangers. That is the harm being done. The results are visible to all.relatd
July 16, 2022
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Relatd: It was socially engineered to be this way by those who reject the truth.
Given that people can’t agree on what the truth is, I guess we do the best we can. My approach, and that of the majority of people, is to provide the greatest amount of freedom with the least amount of harm. In short, live and let live as long as it causes no harm.JHolo
July 16, 2022
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EDTA at 36, "That’s our postmodern definition of love/goodness–which is always changing. Fits our era perfectly. But we aren’t the ones who get to define it." Fits our era perfectly? No it doesn't. It is the opposite of truth. It was socially engineered to be this way by those who reject the truth. And what has been the result? Deformed relationships? Deviant practices regarding human sexuality? Calling good - actual good - a bad idea since it doesn't fit the lifestyle choices of some? Those people DO believe they get to define everything. And they promote this to others,. Isaiah 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!"relatd
July 16, 2022
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CD, > Life presents us with an almost infinite number of things to do today. Yes, and we can only get to a tiny fraction of them here. But I personally have not experienced real boredom in 40+ years, and don't expect to at any time in the future. The sad perspective is where once you die, all the fun, pleasure, curiosity you expressed turns back to dust and is forever gone. It all came to nothing in the end. Sev, Not a problem to ask that question; I've thought about it plenty. I have responsibilities here, which I take seriously and won't abandon until my mortality forces me to. Then it's on to better things. We have many expectations placed on us by our creator, and they have to be balanced. I won't get that balance perfect, but I try. Life is not a single goal/priority to grasp for, to the exclusion of all the rest. That's more complicated than some people would prefer, but appears to be the way it is. JHolo, >A truly loving god would never punish someone simply because they refuse to bow at your feet. A loving god would reward good behaviour regardless of the person’s belief or non-belief. That's our postmodern definition of love/goodness--which is always changing. Fits our era perfectly. But we aren't the ones who get to define it.EDTA
July 16, 2022
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JH at 26, Since you have your own concept of God as opposed to a Biblical knowledge of who God is, a few pointers. Doing good is good, regardless of what you believe. However, God commands all to acknowledge Him as God. This is not some vague concept but a truth that can be known. The common atheist refrain is 'God did bad things.' Not so. He is God, not a man. But those who do not know who God is can only assign human qualities to Him. He is not recognized as God and the fact that this is His Creation is also ignored.relatd
July 16, 2022
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Seversky at 25, A foolish comment. Those who believe in God know what this life is for. Jesus lived His life on Earth.relatd
July 16, 2022
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JH at 28, The same old nonsense. Who or what influences you? What do you hold in highest esteem? Men? The words of fallible men? There is no such thing as an Atheist Utopia or perfect men.relatd
July 16, 2022
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Jerry: There are a trillion examples/cases pointing to intelligence vs zero for other processes
The fact that humans can produce 500-1000 bits of functional information is not a trillion cases from a statistically powerful perspective.JHolo
July 16, 2022
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ChuckDarwin, always a class act.jerry
July 16, 2022
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Seversky/25 There's an apocryphal story about the noted psychiatrist who is treating a particularly intractable patient who is ADHD to the point where he cannot complete any task; he can't even finish his sentences and is constantly threatening to kill himself because of his malady. One morning the doctor is visited by the police who inform him that his client hung himself the night before. The doctor thinks about this news for a minute or two and then exclaims, "Aha! His treatment was a success--he finally completed a task he had set out to do...."chuckdarwin
July 16, 2022
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Specifically the argument that the only known source of 500-1000 bits of information is intelligence.
There are a trillion examples/cases pointing to intelligence vs zero for other processes. ID keeps asking for just one. Actually, there are some trivial cases. Those monkeys keep typing away and will eventually type a few coherent words. But that’s it.jerry
July 16, 2022
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ET: The benefits of the afterlife have to be earned.
Does that include worshipping a being regardless of what it does?JHolo
July 16, 2022
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sebversky:
Just to be clear, I am not urging anyone to commit suicide but the question remains, if the afterlife is so much better why are you waiting around here?
The benefits of the afterlife have to be earned.ET
July 16, 2022
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CD, yes, that is the impression I have always had. A truly loving god would never punish someone simply because they refuse to bow at your feet. A loving god would reward good behaviour regardless of the person’s belief or non-belief.JHolo
July 16, 2022
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Just to be clear, I am not urging anyone to commit suicide but the question remains, if the afterlife is so much better why are you waiting around here?Seversky
July 16, 2022
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Jerry: Isaac Asimov wrote a book called Foundation And Earth
On page 381 of Foundation and Earth; there is this line.
You can’t say technology is ‘always’ anything, if you only have one case to study.
This applies to most of the ID argument. Specifically the argument that the only known source of 500-1000 bits of information is intelligence.JHolo
July 16, 2022
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JHolo "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:" Exodus 34:14, KJVchuckdarwin
July 16, 2022
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