Artificial Intelligence Human exceptionalism Intelligent Design

Marks: Non-Computable You Won’t Achieve Immortality Through an AI Machine

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David Klinghoffer reports at Evolution News: What aspects of human beings can’t be duplicated by a computer algorithm? Oh, just a few, including qualia (what life feels like), sentience, understanding, emotion, creativity, consciousness, and spirituality.

Promoters of AI hype vaguely elide these, as Non-Computable You author Robert J. Marks made clear in a presentation at the recent Dallas Conference on Science and Faith. That’s up on YouTube now:

Marks, a distinguished computer engineer at Baylor University, is introduced by mathematician William Dembski, who had the privilege of introducing Dr. Marks himself to intelligent design. A “towering intellect,” as Dr. Dembski puts it, Marks has since becoming a leading thinker in the field.

What does the subject have to do with the intersection of science and faith? One upshot of the argument here is that dreams of achieving immortality by having your consciousness uploaded to an AI machine, merging man and computer in the predicted 2045 “Singularity,” are just that — dreams, never to be achieved. Computers, no matter how fast or futuristic, will only operate by algorithms. Professor Marks cites the Church-Turing Thesis, that “anything you can do on a computer today or a computer of the future could be done on Alan Turing’s original 1938 Turing machine.” What separates these machines is only speed. The computational method won’t change. The most exceptional things about us as humans are not algorithmic, that is, not computable. If immortality can be won, therefore, it will have to be by some other means. Marks believes that he knows what that other means must be. Watch and enjoy.

52 Replies to “Marks: Non-Computable You Won’t Achieve Immortality Through an AI Machine

  1. 1
    bornagain77 says:

    As to: “The most exceptional things about us as humans are not algorithmic, that is, not computable.”

    That reminds me of this recent quote by Amanda Witt, “You are non-computable, in no small part because you are made in the image of God.”

    The Difference Between Humans and Machines – Amanda Witt – July 13, 2022
    Excerpt: In addition to qualia, many other non-algorithmic traits distinguish humans from machines. Emotion, creativity, mercy, and understanding — true understanding, including common sense and a sense of humor — are some of the traits forever beyond the capacity of machines, no matter how “intelligent” those machines may be, no matter how fast their processing speeds, no matter how much data they can access.,,,
    In truth, you are so much more than a meat computer. You are so much more than wetware. You possess myriad remarkable traits that can never be reduced to algorithms. You possess, among other things, a mind (which is not the same thing as a brain), a heart, and a soul.
    In short, there are some hard boundaries that can’t be crossed. You will never be God, but at the same time, artificial intelligence will never be you. You are non-computable, in no small part because you are made in the image of God.
    https://evolutionnews.org/2022/07/the-difference-between-humans-and-machines/

    Supplemental note:

    Human exceptionalism falsifies Darwinian claims for human evolution
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evangelical-scientists-getting-it-wrong/#comment-740249

    Verses:

    Genesis 1:26-27
    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Mark 10:6
    “But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.”

  2. 2
    bornagain77 says:

    Recent upload:

    Mind Matters,,, Robert J. Marks Answers Questions About The “AI Apocalypse”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b3j8XMf9cE

  3. 3
    jerry says:

    Isaac Asimov wrote a book called Foundation And Earth.

    In it the original inhabitants of Earth split. Some remained and some colonized the galaxy. After millennia, a few colonizers (total colonizers represent trillions) try to find the original Earth.

    They succeed and find a hollowed version of humanity trying to live forever. The book raises some unsettling questions such that Asimov who was writing sequels at the time never wrote one to deal with what he described as the fate of humans that try to live forever.

    Now this is just fiction, but trying to live forever may be a dead end for humanity.

  4. 4
    relatd says:

    Jerry at 3,

    I’m familiar with Asimov. The Fountain of Youth has now become: man merges with machines and goes beyond Biology to live forever. What is disregarded is man’s mental ability to cope with a life longer than 120 or 130 years.

  5. 5
    chuckdarwin says:

    I sometimes wonder if we have really thought through the implications of immortality, religious, secular or otherwise. It seems perhaps we should be a bit more circumspect about our quest for eternal life….

  6. 6
    relatd says:

    We who? Honestly. Who the heck is “we”? Scientists? Some, yes. The Catholic Church? Yes.

    Oh they – meaning people with a lot of money, as in billions – will pay highly skilled people to try. They will. When the Bible is ignored, man has nowhere else to go but himself.

  7. 7
    Caspian says:

    To CD: What are some of your thoughts about “our quest for eternal life?”

  8. 8
    asauber says:

    Andrew’s Thoughts On The Quest For Eternal Life

    For humans on earth there is a time for us to die that we are all designed for. I think its error to try and live forever as a fallen/unredeemed creature. We weren’t meant to.

    Life with God is the only place we should be as our ultimate destiny.

    Andrew

  9. 9
    JHolo says:

    Jerry: Isaac Asimov wrote a book called Foundation And Earth.

    I have been working my way through the Foundation trilogy. I am currently on page 314 of Foundation and Earth, the fifth book in the trilogy.

    After millennia, a few colonizers (total colonizers represent trillions) try to find the original Earth.

    They succeed and find a hollowed version of humanity trying to live forever.

    You could have warned us about the spoiler alert. 🙂

    What I found interesting was the evolution of the technology he describes in this futuristic series. The Foundation series is supposed to take place thousands of years in the future but he started writing them in the 40s, long before the computer age. And the new technology he experienced throughout his life is reflected in the series.

  10. 10
    chuckdarwin says:

    Caspian/7
    Eternal life or existence would be utterly intolerable–no exit, no escape, no respite, no purpose, just endlessly existing. Fortunately, there’s not a shred of evidence that that is our lot…..

  11. 11
    JHolo says:

    I would go as far as to say that humans have advanced as far as they have because a small minority does not believe in life ever after.

  12. 12
    asauber says:

    “I would go as far as to say that humans have advanced as far as they have because a small minority does not believe in life ever after.”

    JH,

    Well, that makes you wrong then, because the majority opinion is always right.

    Andrew

  13. 13
    jerry says:

    I would go as far as to say that humans have advanced as far as they have because a small minority does not believe in life ever after.

    Nonsense.

    For millennia humans hardly advanced at all and then in a small area that believed that life ever after existed, the modern world arose. That was mainly in England and to a small part, Holland. Well documented.

    It has nothing to do with beliefs in religion but did happen with people who were devout Christians.

    Meanwhile science also arose with devout Christians.

  14. 14
    bornagain77 says:

    ChuckyD states, “Eternal life or existence would be utterly intolerable–no exit, no escape, no respite, no purpose, just endlessly existing. Fortunately, there’s not a shred of evidence that that is our lot…..”

    ChuckyD purposely ignores millions of NDEs testifying to the contrary. Which is, or course, far more evidence for life after death than he has for his dogmatic belief in Darwinian evolution.

    Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist’s Evidentiary Standards to the Test – Dr. Michael Egnor – October 15, 2012
    Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE’s are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception — such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE’s have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,,
    The most “parsimonious” explanation — the simplest scientific explanation — is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or of a molecular machine), which is never.,,,
    The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE’s show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it’s earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it’s all a big yawn.
    Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook.
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....65301.html

    Moreover, the fact that ‘immaterial’ information is ubiquitous in every biological molecule of life, which is the one thing that, (as every ID advocate intimately knows), unguided material processes cannot possibly explain the origin of, directly supports the immaterial nature, as well as the physical reality, of the eternal soul:
    https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/12-successful-predictions-of-mental-reality-theory/#comment-714587

    Moreover, I can appeal to none other than special relativity itself, (one of the most powerful, and precisely tested, theories ever in the history of science), to back up my claim that Judeo-Christian Near Death Testimonies are accurately describing a ‘physically real’ event that happened to them, of going to a higher, ‘eternal’, ‘heavenly’, dimension that exists above this temporal realm.

    Specifically, special relativity is based on a single four-dimensional continuum now known as Minkowski space. In fact, the higher dimensional nature of special relativity was a discovery that was made by one of Einstein math professors in 1908 prior to Einstein’s elucidation of General Relativity in 1915. (In fact, in 1916 Einstein fully acknowledged his indebtedness to Minkowski)

    Spacetime
    Excerpt: In 1908, Hermann Minkowski—once one of the math professors of a young Einstein in Zurich—presented a geometric interpretation of special relativity that fused time and the three spatial dimensions of space into a single four-dimensional continuum now known as Minkowski space. A key feature of this interpretation is the definition of a spacetime interval that combines distance and time. Although measurements of distance and time between events differ for measurements made in different reference frames, the spacetime interval is independent of the inertial frame of reference in which they are recorded.
    Minkowski’s geometric interpretation of relativity was to prove vital to Einstein’s development of his 1915 general theory of relativity, wherein he showed that spacetime becomes curved in the presence of mass or energy.,,,
    Einstein, for his part, was initially dismissive of Minkowski’s geometric interpretation of special relativity, regarding it as überflüssige Gelehrsamkeit (superfluous learnedness). However, in order to complete his search for general relativity that started in 1907, the geometric interpretation of relativity proved to be vital, and in 1916, Einstein fully acknowledged his indebtedness to Minkowski, whose interpretation greatly facilitated the transition to general relativity.[10]:151–152 Since there are other types of spacetime, such as the curved spacetime of general relativity, the spacetime of special relativity is today known as Minkowski spacetime.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

    Moreover, these four dimensional spacetimes that undergird both special relativity and general relativity are also comforting to overall Christian concerns in that they reveal two very different eternities to us. One eternity is found for a hypothetical observer who is going the speed of light, and another, (very different), eternity is found for a hypothetical observer falling to the event horizon of a black hole.

    Time dilation
    Excerpt: Time dilation: special vs. general theories of relativity:
    In Albert Einstein’s theories of relativity, time dilation in these two circumstances can be summarized:
    1. –In special relativity (or, hypothetically far from all gravitational mass), clocks that are moving with respect to an inertial system of observation are measured to be running slower. (i.e. For any observer accelerating, hypothetically, to the speed of light, time, as we understand it, will come to a complete stop.)
    2.–In general relativity, clocks at lower potentials in a gravitational field—such as in closer proximity to a planet—are found to be running slower. (i.e. For any observer falling to the event horizon of a black-hole, time, as we understand it, will come to a complete stop.)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation

    Specifically, in Einstein’s special relativity we find that time passes differently for different ‘observers’ depending on how fast the observers are moving through space, “with time slowing to a stop as one, (an observer), approaches the speed of light .”

    Time dilation caused by a relative velocity
    Excerpt: Special relativity indicates that, for an observer in an inertial frame of reference, a clock that is moving relative to them will be measured to tick slower than a clock that is at rest in their frame of reference. This case is sometimes called special relativistic time dilation. The faster the relative velocity, the greater the time dilation between one another, with time slowing to a stop as one approaches the speed of light (299,792,458 m/s).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Time_dilation_caused_by_a_relative_velocity

    To grasp the whole ‘time slowing to a stop as one, (an observer), approaches the speed of light’ concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2.

    “In the spring of 1905, Einstein was riding on a bus and he looked back at the famous clock tower that dominates Bern Switzerland. And then he imagined, “What happens if that bus were racing near the speed of light?”, (narrator: “In his imagination, Einstein looks back at the clock tower and what he sees is astonishing. As he reaches the speed of light, the hands of the clock appear frozen in time”), “Einstein would later write, “A storm broke in my mind. All of the sudden everything, everything, kept gushing forward.”, (narrator: “Einstein knows that, back at the clock tower, time is passing normally, but on Einstein’s light speed bus, as he reaches the speed of light, the light from the clock can no longer catch up to him. The faster he races through space, the slower he moves through time. This insight sparks the birth of Einstein’s Special Theory of relativity, which says that space and time are deeply connected. In fact, they are one and the same. A flexible fabric called spacetime.”)
    – Michio Kaku
    Einstein: Einstein’s Miracle Year (‘Insight into Eternity’ – Thought Experiment – 6:29 minute mark) – video
    https://youtu.be/QQ35opgrhNA?t=389

    Moreover, the finding that time, as we understand it, comes to a complete stop at the speed of light is very friendly to Theistic presuppositions about ‘eternity’ and/or ‘eternal life’.

    As Dr. Richard Swenson noted in his book “More Than Meets The Eye”, “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.”

    “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.”
    – Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 11

    Even Einstein himself, albeit indirectly, alluded to the Theological significance of special relativity when he, upon the death of his close friend Michele Besso, stated, “For those of us who believe in physics, the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.”

    Einstein and Michele Besso
    Upon Besso’s death in 1955, Einstein wrote a letter of condolence to the Besso family—less than a month before his own death—which contained the following quote “Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That signifies nothing. For those of us who believe in physics, the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.”
    http://quotingeinstein.blogspo.....besso.html

    That time, as we understand it, comes to a complete stop at the speed of light, and yet light moves from point A to point B in our universe, and thus light is obviously not ‘frozen within time’, has some fairly profound implications for us.

    The only way it is possible for time not to pass for light, and yet for light to move from point A to point B in our universe, is if light is of a ‘higher dimensional’ value of time than the temporal time we are currently living in. Otherwise light would simply be ‘frozen within time’ from our temporal frame of reference.

    One way for us to more easily understand this higher dimensional framework for time that light must necessarily exist in is to visualize what would happen if a hypothetical observer approached the speed of light.

    In the first part of the following video clip, entitled ‘Optical Effects of Special Relativity”, a video which was made by two Australian University Physics Professors, we find that the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape as a ‘hypothetical’ observer approaches the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light.

    Optical Effects of Special Relativity – video (full relativistic effects shown at 2:40 minute mark)
    https://youtu.be/JQnHTKZBTI4?t=160

  15. 15
    bornagain77 says:

    To give us a small glimpse as to what it might be like to exist in a higher dimension, this following video, Dr. Quantum in Flatland, gives us a (very) small insight as to what it might be like for us to exist in a ‘invisible’ higher dimension:

    Dr. Quantum in Flatland – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5yxZ5I-zsE

    Moreover, many people who have had NDEs, (in Judeo-Christian cultures), speak of a ‘timeless eternity’, and also speak of going through a tunnel to a higher, heavenly, dimension.

    In the following video clip, Mickey Robinson gives his Near Death testimony of what it felt like for him to experience a ‘timeless eternity’.

    ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’
    In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video (testimony starts at 27:45 minute mark)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voak1RM-pXo

    And here are a few more quotes from people who have experienced Near Death, that speak of how their perception of time was radically altered as they were outside of their material body.

    ‘Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything – past, present, future – exists simultaneously.’
    – Kimberly Clark Sharp – Near Death Experiencer

    ‘There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.’
    – John Star – NDE Experiencer

    As well, Near Death Experiencers in Judeo-Christian cultures also frequently mention going through a tunnel to a higher heavenly dimension:

    Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? –
    Excerpt: “Very often as they’re moving through the tunnel, there’s a very bright mystical light … not like a light we’re used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns…”
    – Jeffrey Long M.D. – has studied NDE’s extensively
    – abcnews nightline

    The Tunnel and the Near-Death Experience
    Excerpt: One of the nine elements that generally occur during NDEs is the tunnel experience. This involves being drawn into darkness through a tunnel, at an extremely high speed, until reaching a realm of radiant golden-white light.
    – near death research

    Barbara Springer gives her testimony as to what it felt like for her to go through the tunnel to ‘heaven’:

    “I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.”
    Barbara Springer – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel

    And in the following audio clip, (Vicki Noratuk, who has been blind from birth, and besides being able to ‘miraculously’ see for the very first time during in her life during her Near Death Experience), also gives testimony of going through a tunnel to a higher heaven dimension:

    “I was in a body, and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head, it had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And it was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.”,,, “And then this vehicle formed itself around me. Vehicle is the only thing, or tube, or something, but it was a mode of transportation that’s for sure! And it formed around me. And there was no one in it with me. I was in it alone. But I knew there were other people ahead of me and behind me. What they were doing I don’t know, but there were people ahead of me and people behind me, but I was alone in my particular conveyance. And I could see out of it. And it went at a tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed. But it wasn’t unpleasant. It was beautiful in fact.,, I was reclining in this thing, I wasn’t sitting straight up, but I wasn’t lying down either. I was sitting back. And it was just so fast. I can’t even begin to tell you where it went or whatever it was just fast!” –
    Vicki’s NDE – Blind since birth –
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KhcCS5-Y

    And the following people who had a NDE both testified that they firmly believed that they were in a higher dimension that exists above this temporal realm and that the primary reason that they have a very difficult time explaining exactly what their Near Death Experiences felt like is because we simply don’t currently have the words to properly describe that higher dimension:

    “Regardless, it is impossible for me to adequately describe what I saw and felt. When I try to recount my experiences now, the description feels very pale. I feel as though I’m trying to describe a three-dimensional experience while living in a two-dimensional world. The appropriate words, descriptions and concepts don’t even exist in our current language. I have subsequently read the accounts of other people’s near-death experiences and their portrayals of heaven and I able to see the same limitations in their descriptions and vocabulary that I see in my own.”
    Mary C. Neal, MD – To Heaven And Back pg. 71

    “Well, when I was taking geometry, they always told me there were only three dimensions, and I always just accepted that. But they were wrong. There are more… And that is why so hard for me to tell you this. I have to describe with words that are three-dimensional. That’s as close as I can get to it, but it’s really not adequate.”
    John Burke – Imagine Heaven pg. 51 – quoting a Near Death Experiencer

    That what we now know to be true from special relativity, (namely that it outlines a ‘timeless’, i.e. eternal, dimension that exists above this temporal dimension), would fit hand and glove with the personal testimonies of people who have had a deep heavenly NDEs is, needless to say, powerful evidence that their testimonies are, in fact, true and that they are accurately describing the ‘physical reality’ of a higher heavenly dimension, that they experienced first hand, and that they adamantly insist exists above this temporal dimension.

    I would even go so far as to say that such corroboration from ‘non-physicists’, who, in all likelihood, know nothing about these intricacies of special relativity, is a complete ‘scientific’ verification of the overall validity, and ‘physical reality’, of their personal NDE testimonies.

    Thus in conclusion, far from there not being ‘one shred of evidence’ as ChuckyD tried to claim, we find that Special Relativity itself, one of our most powerful theories in science, contradicts ChuckyD and offers stunning confirmation that Judeo Christian Near Death Testimonies are accurate ‘physical’ descriptions of what happens after death, i.e. going to a ‘higher timeless/eternal dimension’, i.e. a ‘heavenly’ dimension, that exists above this temporal realm.

    Quote and Verses:

    “I feel as if there are no words in our limited vocabulary to describe what I experienced.,,,
    The only human emotion I could feel was pure, unrelenting, unconditional love. Take the unconditional love a mother has for a child and amplify it a thousand fold, then multiply exponentially. The result of your equation would be as a grain of sand is to all the beaches in the world. So, too, is the comparison between the love we experience on earth to what I felt during my experience. This love is so strong, that words like “love” make the description seem obscene. It was the most powerful and compelling feeling. But, it was so much more. I felt the presence of angels. I felt the presence of joyous souls, and they described to me a hundred lifetimes worth of knowledge about our divinity. Simultaneous to the deliverance of this knowledge, I knew I was in the presence of God. I never wanted to leave, never.”?
    – Judeo-Christian Near Death Experience Testimony?

    2 Corinthians 12- 2-4
    I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to Paradise. The things he heard were too sacred for words, things that man is not permitted to tell.

    Revelation 21:4
    he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”

  16. 16
    Seversky says:

    As I believe I mentioned before, I once had a vivid dream about going to work one morning. I worked in a smart office building where I had been employed for many years. I walked up the steps at the front of the building and entered the spacious foyer. I nodded to the security guard on the reception desk and walked up the stairs to the next floor. I turned left at the top and walked along an aisle between rows of cubicles. I greeted co-workers whom I’d known for many years as I passed them until reached my cubicle. It was at this point I woke.

    Initially, this all seemed quite normal. Until I came fully awake and realized I had never worked in such a building nor had I ever known anyone I saw in the dream. Yet, in the dream I recognized it all. There was absolutely no question in my mind that it was all true.

    Now, is it surprising that even more vivid NDEs are taken as being somehow true by those who experienced them? I knew my dream was not true because there was nothing in my waking memory that corresponded to any of the dream experiences. But what people report experiencing in NDEs are nothing like they would ever have experienced in waking reality. There is nothing they can cross-reference with to check if they are true so to make sense of them they interpret them as genuine experiences of some higher dimension. I don’t doubt these people are giving honest accounts of what they actually experienced but there is no way to verify them. For all we can prove, they may just as well have been something like a dream.

  17. 17
    bornagain77 says:

    Seversky, predictably, ignores the stunning fact that NDE testimonies fit hand and glove with what we now know to be true from special relativity, (namely that Special Relativity outlines a ‘timeless’, i.e. eternal, dimension that exists above this temporal dimension), and states, “For all we can prove, they may just as well have been something like a dream.”

    Well actually, far from anyone ever proving NDEs are ‘something like a dream’, researchers, (who had a bias against NDEs being real), have proven the exact opposite and have proven that NDEs are definitely NOT ‘something like a dream’.

    Specifically, In the following study, materialistic researchers who had an inherent bias against Near Death Experiences being real, set out to prove that they were merely ‘false memories’ by setting up a clever questionnaire that could differentiate which memories a person had were real and which memories a person had were merely imaginary.

    Simply put, they did not expect the results they got: To quote the headline ‘Afterlife’ feels ‘even more real than real”

    ‘Afterlife’ feels ‘even more real than real,’ researcher says – Wed April 10, 2013
    Excerpt: “If you use this questionnaire … if the memory is real, it’s richer, and if the memory is recent, it’s richer,” he said.
    The coma scientists weren’t expecting what the tests revealed.
    “To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors,” Laureys reported.
    The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. “The difference was so vast,” he said with a sense of astonishment.
    Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich “as though it was yesterday,” Laureys said.
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/.....periences/

    Memories of Near Death Experiences (NDEs): More Real Than Reality? – Mar. 27, 2013
    Excerpt: University of Liège
    ,,,researchers,, have looked into the memories of NDE with the hypothesis that if the memories of NDE were pure products of the imagination, their phenomenological characteristics (e.g., sensorial, self referential, emotional, etc. details) should be closer to those of imagined memories. Conversely, if the NDE are experienced in a way similar to that of reality, their characteristics would be closer to the memories of real events.
    The researchers compared the responses provided by three groups of patients, each of which had survived (in a different manner) a coma, and a group of healthy volunteers. They studied the memories of NDE and the memories of real events and imagined events with the help of a questionnaire which evaluated the phenomenological characteristics of the memories. The results were surprising. From the perspective being studied, not only were the NDEs not similar to the memories of imagined events, but the phenomenological characteristics inherent to the memories of real events (e.g. memories of sensorial details) are even more numerous in the memories of NDE than in the memories of real events.
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....190359.htm

    In fact, and in typical Darwinian fashion, the lead researcher in the preceding study did not believe the results of his own questionnaire and still holds NDEs to merely be ‘false memories’.

    But regardless of the lead researcher dogmatically clinging to his atheistic bias in the face of contradictory evidence, the results of his study remain clear cut. Namely, ‘Afterlife’ feels ‘even more real than real’.

    Here are a few quotes on this ‘more real than real’ aspect of Near Death Experiences:

    A Doctor’s Near Death Experience Inspires a New Life – video
    Quote: “It’s not like a dream. It’s like the world we are living in is a dream and it’s kind of like waking up from that.”
    Dr. Magrisso
    https://www.nbcchicago.com/local/a-doctor/2053401/

    “More real than anything I’ve experienced since. When I came back of course I had 34 operations, and was in the hospital for 13 months. That was real but heaven is more real than that. The emotions and the feelings. The reality of being with people who had preceded me in death.”
    – Don Piper – “90 Minutes in Heaven,” 10 Years Later – video (2:54 minute mark)
    https://youtu.be/3LyZoNlKnMM?t=173

    “I was in the spiritual dimension. And this spiritual dimension, this spiritual world, that’s the real world. And this spiritual man that I was seeing and perceiving, that was the real me. And I instantly knew it. The colors are brighter. The thoughts are more intense. The feelings have greater depth. They’re more real. In the spirit world instantly I knew that this is the real world.,,,”
    – The Near Death Experience of Mickey Robinson – video (testimony starts at 27:45 minute mark)
    https://youtu.be/voak1RM-pXo?t=1655

    Medical Miracles – Dr. Mary Neal’s Near Death Experience – video (More real than real quote at 37:49 minute mark)
    https://youtu.be/WCNjmWP2JjU?t=2269

    Dr. Eben Alexander Says It’s Time for Brain Science to Graduate From Kindergarten – 10/24/2013
    Excerpt: To take the approach of, “Oh it had to be a hallucination of the brain” is just crazy. The simplistic idea that NDEs (Near Death Experiences) are a trick of a dying brain is similar to taking a piece of cardboard out of a pizza delivery box, rolling it down a hill and then claiming that it’s an identical event as rolling a beautiful Ferrari down a hill. They are not the same at all. The problem is the pure materialist scientists can be so closed-minded about it.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....51093.html

    It is also very interesting to note that Darwinists, because of their atheistic materialism, are forced to also claim that they themselves do not exist as real persons but that they themselves are merely ‘neuronal illusions’,

    Another startling conclusion from the science of consciousness is that the intuitive feeling we have that there’s an executive “I” that sits in a control room of our brain, scanning the screens of the senses and pushing the buttons of the muscles, is an illusion.
    – Steven Pinker – Professor in the Department of Psychology at Harvard University

    Atheistic Materialism – Does Richard Dawkins Exist? Dr. Dennis Bonnette – video 37:51 minute mark
    Quote: “It turns out that if every part of you, down to sub-atomic parts, are still what they were when they weren’t in you, in other words every ion,,, every single atom that was in the universe, that has now become part of your living body, is still what is was originally. It hasn’t undergone what metaphysicians call a ‘substantial change’. So you aren’t Richard Dawkins. You are just carbon and neon and sulfur and oxygen and all these individual atoms still.
    You can spout a philosophy that says scientific materialism, but there aren’t any scientific materialists to pronounce it.,,, That’s why I think they find it kind of embarrassing to talk that way. Nobody wants to stand up there and say, “You know, I’m not really here”.

    etc.. etc..

    In fact, reductive materialism, besides denying the ‘existence of self’, also forces atheists into denying the reality of many other things that the vast majority of people regard as being undeniably real

    Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris), who has unreliable, (i.e. illusory), beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the reality of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God (Craig, Kreeft). Who, since beauty cannot be grounded within his materialistic worldview, must hold also beauty itself to be illusory (C. Darwin).
    Bottom line, nothing is truly real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, beauty, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,,
    – Darwinian Materialism and/or Methodological Naturalism vs. Reality – video
    – per YouTube

    Thus, my burning question to atheistic materialists becomes this. “How is it remotely possible for something to even be real for neuronal illusions in the first place?”, much less, “How is it remotely possible for something to become even ‘more real than real’ for ‘neuronal illusions’?

    The Illusionist – Daniel Dennett’s latest book marks five decades of majestic failure to explain consciousness. – 2017
    Excerpt: “Simply enough, you cannot suffer the illusion that you are conscious because illusions are possible only for conscious minds. This is so incandescently obvious that it is almost embarrassing to have to state it.”
    – David Bentley Hart
    – per the newatlantis

    The denial that his sense of self is real puts Seversky, and other atheists, in a severe bind. Seversky, as a ‘neuronal illusion’, simply has no yardstick, and/or foundation, to measure whether his own reality is real or not, much less does he have any way of ascertaining whether of not what somebody else experiences is real or not.

    In short, if God does not exist as a real person, then Seversky himself does not exist as a real person and has lost any ability to comment on whether something else may be real or not.

    What Does It Mean to Say That Science & Religion Conflict? – M. Anthony Mills – April 16, 2018
    Excerpt: Barr rightly observes that scientific atheists often unwittingly assume not just metaphysical naturalism but an even more controversial philosophical position: reductive materialism, which says all that exists is or is reducible to the material constituents postulated by our most fundamental physical theories.
    As Barr points out, this implies not only that God does not exist — because God is not material — but that you do not exist. For you are not a material constituent postulated by any of our most fundamental physical theories; at best, you are an aggregate of those constituents, arranged in a particular way.,,,
    https://www.realclearreligion.org/articles/2018/04/16/what_does_it_mean_to_say_that_science_and_religion_conflict.html

    Verse

    2 Corinthians 10:5
    Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

  18. 18
    chuckdarwin says:

    BA77/15
    Existing “in a higher dimension” is not the same thing as eternal or everlasting life. As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for…..

  19. 19
    bornagain77 says:

    ChuckyD states, “Existing “in a higher dimension” is not the same thing as eternal or everlasting life.”

    Apparently ChuckyD did not read this part about special relativity,,, in Einstein’s special relativity we, via time dilation, find that time passes differently for different ‘observers’ depending on how fast the observers are moving through space, “with time slowing to a stop as one, (an observer), approaches the speed of light .”

    Time dilation caused by a relative velocity
    Excerpt: Special relativity indicates that, for an observer in an inertial frame of reference, a clock that is moving relative to them will be measured to tick slower than a clock that is at rest in their frame of reference. This case is sometimes called special relativistic time dilation. The faster the relative velocity, the greater the time dilation between one another, with time slowing to a stop as one approaches the speed of light (299,792,458 m/s).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Time_dilation_caused_by_a_relative_velocity

    To grasp the whole ‘time slowing to a stop as one, (an observer), approaches the speed of light’ concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2.

    “In the spring of 1905, Einstein was riding on a bus and he looked back at the famous clock tower that dominates Bern Switzerland. And then he imagined, “What happens if that bus were racing near the speed of light?”, (narrator: “In his imagination, Einstein looks back at the clock tower and what he sees is astonishing. As he reaches the speed of light, the hands of the clock appear frozen in time”), “Einstein would later write, “A storm broke in my mind. All of the sudden everything, everything, kept gushing forward.”, (narrator: “Einstein knows that, back at the clock tower, time is passing normally, but on Einstein’s light speed bus, as he reaches the speed of light, the light from the clock can no longer catch up to him. The faster he races through space, the slower he moves through time. This insight sparks the birth of Einstein’s Special Theory of relativity, which says that space and time are deeply connected. In fact, they are one and the same. A flexible fabric called spacetime.”)
    – Michio Kaku
    Einstein: Einstein’s Miracle Year (‘Insight into Eternity’ – Thought Experiment – 6:29 minute mark) – video
    https://youtu.be/QQ35opgrhNA?t=389

    Moreover, the finding that time, as we understand it, comes to a complete stop at the speed of light is very friendly to Theistic presuppositions about ‘eternity’ and/or ‘eternal life’.

    As Dr. Richard Swenson noted in his book “More Than Meets The Eye”, “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.”

    “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.”
    – Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 11

    Moreover, this ‘timeless existence’, i.e. eternity, that is revealed by Special Relativity is exactly what many people who have had deep Judeo-Christian NDEs describe.

    In the following video clip, Mickey Robinson gives his Near Death testimony of what it felt like for him to experience a ‘timeless eternity’.

    ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’
    In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video (testimony starts at 27:45 minute mark)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voak1RM-pXo

    And here are a few more quotes from people who have experienced Near Death, that speak of how their perception of time was radically altered as they were outside of their material body.

    ‘Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything – past, present, future – exists simultaneously.’
    – Kimberly Clark Sharp – Near Death Experiencer

    ‘There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.’
    – John Star – NDE Experiencer

    ChuckyD goes on to state, “As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for…..” . ChuckyD says this as if eternity with God would be an unbearable burden to bare.

    Quite the contrary. It is an eternity separated from God that is defined as being hell, i.e. that is an unbearable burden to bare. Whereas eternity with God is held to be far more wonderful that we can possibly imagine right now. As scripture notes, “no mind has imagined the things which God has prepared for those who love him.”

    1 Corinthians 2:9
    But as it is written, No eye has seen, and no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things which God has prepared for those who love him.

    and also, “in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.”

    Psalm 16:11
    You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

    And here is a NDE quote that testifies, “I knew I was in the presence of God. I never wanted to leave, never.”

    “I feel as if there are no words in our limited vocabulary to describe what I experienced.,,,
    The only human emotion I could feel was pure, unrelenting, unconditional love. Take the unconditional love a mother has for a child and amplify it a thousand fold, then multiply exponentially. The result of your equation would be as a grain of sand is to all the beaches in the world. So, too, is the comparison between the love we experience on earth to what I felt during my experience. This love is so strong, that words like “love” make the description seem obscene. It was the most powerful and compelling feeling. But, it was so much more. I felt the presence of angels. I felt the presence of joyous souls, and they described to me a hundred lifetimes worth of knowledge about our divinity. Simultaneous to the deliverance of this knowledge, I knew I was in the presence of God. I never wanted to leave, never.”
    – Judeo-Christian Near Death Experience Testimony

    Thus contrary to what ChuckyD is trying to claim, eternity with God is certainly never going to be boring, much less an unbearable burden to bare. But instead eternity with God is a gift that is much more than we could ever possibly wish for and/or imagine to be true.

    Romans 6:23
    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  20. 20
    EDTA says:

    CD,

    Eternal life or existence would be utterly intolerable–no exit, no escape, no respite, no purpose, just endlessly existing. Fortunately, there’s not a shred of evidence that that is our lot…

    Sadly, from a non-theistic perspective, all lives have no purpose already. Internal, selfish ones, maybe, but those aren’t enough to sustain a person very long. Very depressing viewpoint; glad I don’t share it. I figure there will be more and better things to do in the beyond than here now, too. Looking forward to what the future holds! I wish everyone shared a similar view…

  21. 21
    chuckdarwin says:

    BA77 says that “eternity with God is certainly never going to be boring…”
    EDTA says that “I figure there will be more and better things to do in the beyond than here now…”

    More and better things in the beyond? Life presents us with an almost infinite number of things to do today. There’s a great lyric from an old Steve Stills song: “Every tomorrow looking to borrow a piece of today.” We know for sure what the present offers, yet we toss it all away, we malign it, we condemn it, wishfully hoping there are “more and better things” in the “everlasting” afterlife. That is a truly sad perspective….

  22. 22
    JHolo says:

    Worship me or forgo an everlasting life. That sounds a little too North Korean for me.

  23. 23
    chuckdarwin says:

    JHolo

    “For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:”
    Exodus 34:14, KJV

  24. 24
    JHolo says:

    Jerry: Isaac Asimov wrote a book called Foundation And Earth

    On page 381 of Foundation and Earth; there is this line.

    You can’t say technology is ‘always’ anything, if you only have one case to study.

    This applies to most of the ID argument. Specifically the argument that the only known source of 500-1000 bits of information is intelligence.

  25. 25
    Seversky says:

    Just to be clear, I am not urging anyone to commit suicide but the question remains, if the afterlife is so much better why are you waiting around here?

  26. 26
    JHolo says:

    CD, yes, that is the impression I have always had. A truly loving god would never punish someone simply because they refuse to bow at your feet. A loving god would reward good behaviour regardless of the person’s belief or non-belief.

  27. 27
    ET says:

    sebversky:

    Just to be clear, I am not urging anyone to commit suicide but the question remains, if the afterlife is so much better why are you waiting around here?

    The benefits of the afterlife have to be earned.

  28. 28
    JHolo says:

    ET: The benefits of the afterlife have to be earned.

    Does that include worshipping a being regardless of what it does?

  29. 29
    jerry says:

    Specifically the argument that the only known source of 500-1000 bits of information is intelligence.

    There are a trillion examples/cases pointing to intelligence vs zero for other processes.

    ID keeps asking for just one.

    Actually, there are some trivial cases. Those monkeys keep typing away and will eventually type a few coherent words. But that’s it.

  30. 30
    chuckdarwin says:

    Seversky/25
    There’s an apocryphal story about the noted psychiatrist who is treating a particularly intractable patient who is ADHD to the point where he cannot complete any task; he can’t even finish his sentences and is constantly threatening to kill himself because of his malady. One morning the doctor is visited by the police who inform him that his client hung himself the night before. The doctor thinks about this news for a minute or two and then exclaims, “Aha! His treatment was a success–he finally completed a task he had set out to do….”

  31. 31
    jerry says:

    ChuckDarwin, always a class act.

  32. 32
    JHolo says:

    Jerry: There are a trillion examples/cases pointing to intelligence vs zero for other processes

    The fact that humans can produce 500-1000 bits of functional information is not a trillion cases from a statistically powerful perspective.

  33. 33
    relatd says:

    JH at 28,

    The same old nonsense. Who or what influences you? What do you hold in highest esteem? Men? The words of fallible men?

    There is no such thing as an Atheist Utopia or perfect men.

  34. 34
    relatd says:

    Seversky at 25,

    A foolish comment. Those who believe in God know what this life is for. Jesus lived His life on Earth.

  35. 35
    relatd says:

    JH at 26,

    Since you have your own concept of God as opposed to a Biblical knowledge of who God is, a few pointers.
    Doing good is good, regardless of what you believe. However, God commands all to acknowledge Him as God. This is not some vague concept but a truth that can be known.

    The common atheist refrain is ‘God did bad things.’ Not so. He is God, not a man. But those who do not know who God is can only assign human qualities to Him. He is not recognized as God and the fact that this is His Creation is also ignored.

  36. 36
    EDTA says:

    CD,
    > Life presents us with an almost infinite number of things to do today.
    Yes, and we can only get to a tiny fraction of them here. But I personally have not experienced real boredom in 40+ years, and don’t expect to at any time in the future. The sad perspective is where once you die, all the fun, pleasure, curiosity you expressed turns back to dust and is forever gone. It all came to nothing in the end.

    Sev,
    Not a problem to ask that question; I’ve thought about it plenty. I have responsibilities here, which I take seriously and won’t abandon until my mortality forces me to. Then it’s on to better things. We have many expectations placed on us by our creator, and they have to be balanced. I won’t get that balance perfect, but I try. Life is not a single goal/priority to grasp for, to the exclusion of all the rest. That’s more complicated than some people would prefer, but appears to be the way it is.

    JHolo,
    >A truly loving god would never punish someone simply because they refuse to bow at your feet. A loving god would reward good behaviour regardless of the person’s belief or non-belief.

    That’s our postmodern definition of love/goodness–which is always changing. Fits our era perfectly. But we aren’t the ones who get to define it.

  37. 37
    relatd says:

    EDTA at 36,

    “That’s our postmodern definition of love/goodness–which is always changing. Fits our era perfectly. But we aren’t the ones who get to define it.”

    Fits our era perfectly? No it doesn’t. It is the opposite of truth. It was socially engineered to be this way by those who reject the truth. And what has been the result? Deformed relationships? Deviant practices regarding human sexuality? Calling good – actual good – a bad idea since it doesn’t fit the lifestyle choices of some? Those people DO believe they get to define everything. And they promote this to others,.

    Isaiah 5:20

    “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!”

  38. 38
    JHolo says:

    Relatd: It was socially engineered to be this way by those who reject the truth.

    Given that people can’t agree on what the truth is, I guess we do the best we can. My approach, and that of the majority of people, is to provide the greatest amount of freedom with the least amount of harm. In short, live and let live as long as it causes no harm.

  39. 39
    relatd says:

    JH at 38,

    Is that what “the majority of people” are actually doing? Or is this just your personal perception? No harm, as defined by you, translates as “I do whatever I want.” That’s all. Harm is being done. Harm to standards of public and private conduct. Harm to reason and self-discipline and self-control. Harm to the education of children which must be under the strict control of Total Strangers.

    That is the harm being done. The results are visible to all.

  40. 40
    JHolo says:

    Relatd: That is the harm being done. The results are visible to all.

    Yes, people are no longer afraid to love the person they love. Rates of gay suicide are declining. Women have fewer and fewer employment restrictions. Abortion rates are lower now than they were before Roe. Sexual harassment in the workplace now has consequences. The sexual abuse of minors by priests, and people in other positions of authority are no longer being covered up. Spousal assault is no longer legal. Inter-racial marriages are now legal and inter-faith marriages are now common. Same sex couples now have the same protections and responsibilities as opposite sex couples.

  41. 41
    relatd says:

    JH t 40,

    So the world is ordered to your liking and the liking of small groups.

    Have spouses stopped hitting their spouses today? Yes or no.

    Inter-racial marriages never happened before ‘the legal’? Yes or no.

    Inter-faith marriages? Do you know the strict – non-secular rules – regarding this? Yes or no.

    Same-sex couples? What do they want? First, domestic partnerships. Rejected. Putting it on the ballot. Rejected. Then the Supreme Court pulls a ruling out of thin air? If it was just about inheritance, hospital visitation and transfer of property, plenty of legal remedies existed but these were rejected.

    Sexual abuse is no longer being covered up? Really? Just because it has received more visibility does not mean it will stop in some places, such as public schools.

    Sexual harassment in the workplace? What about it?

    Abortion rates are lower because a pill was introduced so that women can abort and it’s not reported.

    Women have what? I’ve worked with outside firms and I care only about a good job being done, nothing more.

    https://theweek.com/articles/467944/most-common-job-women-same-1950

    Please post scientific information that shows gay suicide rates are declining.

    When did people start being afraid to love the person they love? If you’re just referring to homosexuals, I could have dozens of gay couples living in my neighborhood and not know it. Based on my research, gay couples faced problems from their parents. Like being thrown out of the house or their desire to be with someone of the same sex meant a loss of communication between themselves and their parents, and perhaps, other family members.

    Of the gay people I met, their personal lives were of no concern to me. An acquaintance who went through the procedure that caused him to present as a woman was not someone I was going to lecture. He mentioned the negative attitudes toward others who did what he did. He went on to say he was going to marry his boyfriend. Again, not a situation that called for a lecture or rebuke. As I’ve written before, no one needs my personal permission to live how they want. But you engage in the usual Leftist tactic of being confrontational. That I might “impose” something on you.

  42. 42
    JHolo says:

    Please post scientific information that shows gay suicide rates are declining.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33812751/

  43. 43
    Seversky says:

    JHolo/32

    The fact that humans can produce 500-1000 bits of functional information is not a trillion cases from a statistically powerful perspective.

    As an aside, what do you understand the significance of this 500-1000 bit limit to functional information?

  44. 44
    Seversky says:

    JHolo/38

    Given that people can’t agree on what the truth is, I guess we do the best we can. My approach, and that of the majority of people, is to provide the greatest amount of freedom with the least amount of harm. In short, live and let live as long as it causes no harm.

    In essence, that is what J S Mill was advocating in On Liberty, that in a free society people should be able to do pretty much what they chose up to the point where it caused harm to the legitimate rights, interests and well-being of other members of that society.

  45. 45
    relatd says:

    Seversky at 44,

    Who’s stopping you? Conservatives? Are “the majority of the people” actually doing that or is that just a personal perception?

  46. 46
    EDTA says:

    Relatd @ 37,
    I just meant that our de facto definition of love, etc., is tailor made to fit the rest of our postmodern era’s philosophies. It is of course wrong, as are most of our other de facto current-day philosophies. Not disagreeing with you.

    To others: Yes, some statistics are getting better by some people’s measures. But social capital is in decline, and that is a fundamental we depend heavily on without most people even knowing what it is. We are more deeply morally divided than at any time since the Civil War, and that too is getting worse. With great effort, we can solve some moral issues, but the biggest ones continue to fester. Losing the big battles means hard-won battles on the smaller fronts will be immediately lost also. Our priorities are wrong.

  47. 47
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, the problem is not statistics but your erecting and knocking over a strawman rooted in misinterpretation. Every case of independent intelligent action stands on its own as just that, a separate case; the attempt to conflate them down to one is a crude, tendentious fallacy. (BTW, there are observed non human cases such as beaver dams etc but that is an aside.) Further, the 500 – 1,000 bit threshold is set by looking at blind search resources of the sol system or observed cosmos: it is separately maximally implausible that FSCO/I beyond the threshold would arise by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, on search challenge. We have a phenomenon, FSCO/I, common to the point of trillions of observed cases. In each of these, the cause is intelligently directed configuration. From search challenge, there are no other plausible cases. But, because of, frankly, crooked yardstick thinking, you have strawmannised what we have trillions of observations of to create the impression that what has never been seen to be causally competent and is massively implausible, is the best candidate explanation. That is a backhanded way to acknowledge the explanatory weakness to the point of incompetence of the favoured chance and necessity. Fail. KF

  48. 48
    William J Murray says:

    Seversky @16,
    More difficult to explain as the “dream-like” personal experience of an NDE is that of SDEs, or shared death experiences. There are several cases when the people in the room with a patient who is in the process of dying have the experience of accompanying they dying person as they make the transition to what is apparently an afterlife. Their reports on the experience entirely correspond to each other, such as seeing the same environment and “dead” people greeting they dying person. This often includes hospice workers who are not even related to the person dying.

    Further evidence that these are not “dream-like” experiences is the fact that some have occurred while the person’s brain activity was being monitored, and there was no recorded activity. They were brain-dead at the time (this is done deliberately in some cases, like with Pam Reynolds.) A materialist explanation requires that the brain would “light up” when one is having these kind of ultra-realistic, high-sensory experiences, but the exact opposite correlation has been shown.

  49. 49
    William J Murray says:

    Seversky asks @25:

    Just to be clear, I am not urging anyone to commit suicide but the question remains, if the afterlife is so much better why are you waiting around here?

    What’s the hurry? I’ll be dead naturally soon enough. I came here for good reasons, and I want to make sure I get the most out of the experience I can.

  50. 50
    William J Murray says:

    To make it simple about the afterlife: the theory – materialism – that would account for why consciousness would end at death has been scientifically disproved via 100 years of quantum physics experimentation.

  51. 51
    EDTA says:

    From Sev’s full linked article on the presumed reduction in suicides in youths due to legalization of same-sex marriage: https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00066-5/pdf

    “The…analysis indicated that same-sex marriage legalization was associated with a decline in the youth suicide rate of 1.191 deaths per 100,000 individuals (95% CI =-1.66, -0.64; p < .001)."

    If we apply this rate change to the US (couldn't find any per-nation data attached to Sev's article…using the average over all OECD nations…), would equate to a one-time young lives saved number of ~754 lives. (Same-sex marriage legalization was a one-time effect.)

    But over roughly the same timespan involved here (~17 – 20 years), the cumulative number of US suicides grew over its (year 2000) baseline by an additional ~92,600 (even after deducting the presumed/extrapolated decreased youth suicides that would have been ostensibly prevented by SSM legalization had that happened sooner in the US).

    ~92,600 is much larger than ~754, even after factoring in my extrapolations and roundings.

    This puts a very rough number to a case I have been making here for quite some time: We are lavishing attention on minority groups to the exclusion of the overall health of US society. If we slip into any form of totalitarianism, there will be enough democide/genocide deaths to make 754 youth lives (and 92,600 total lives) saved look like a drop in the bucket in comparison. We clearly do not have enough societal attention/focus/wisdom to solve the big problems, so we're focusing on ones we can solve (in a very fragile manner)–but that make liberals feel oh-so-good about themselves, while letting the US as a whole rot from the core. Nice work!

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    EDTA says:

    My apology, that was JHolo who posted the link to the decline in youth suicide due to legalization of SSM, not Sev.

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