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Materialists Descend Further into Incoherence

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This is the cover from New Scientists magazine for March 31, 2018:

The materialist editor who wrote the text for the cover is deeply confused about at last two things:

  1. He implies that we “know” that inequality is morally wrong in the same way we “know” the earth orbits the sun.  But that is true only if morality is objective and part of that objective morality is that inequality is wrong.  But by definition materialists cannot believe in objective morality, because they reject any transcendent moral code by which to judge moral claims.
  2. Under Darwinist principles inequality is the natural state in the struggle of all against all.  After all, in a world of “survival of the fittest,” the “fittest” are anything but equal.  Why should the editors suggest that inequality, which is inevitable in their worldview, is wrong?

As I have written before, the Christian idea of equality of all men before God is the foundation of the political idea of the equality of all men under the law.  Don’t take my word for it.  Atheist professor Yuval Noah Harari agrees.  In his international bestseller Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, Harari wrote:  “The idea of equality is inextricably intertwined with the idea of creation.  The Americans got the idea of equality from Christianity, which argues that every person has a divinely created soul, and that all souls are equal before God.”

This passage comes from a longer passage in which Harari argues that the ideas expressed in the Declaration are so much imaginary drivel.  He writes:

Both the Code of Hammurabi and the American Declaration of Independence claim to outline universal and eternal principles of justice, but according to the Americans all people are equal, whereas according to the Babylonians people are decidedly unequal. The Americans would, of course, say that they are right, and that Hammurabi is wrong. Hammurabi, naturally, would retort that he is right, and that the Americans are wrong.  In fact, they are both wrong.  Hammurabi and the American Founding Fathers alike imagined a reality governed by universal and immutable principles of justice, such as equality or hierarchy.  Yet the only place where such universal principles exist is in the fertile imagination of Sapiens, and in the myths they invent and tell one another. These principles have no objective validity.

It is easy for us to accept that the division of people into ‘superiors’ and ‘commoners’ is a figment of the imagination. Yet the idea that all humans are equal is also a myth.  In what sense do all humans equal one another?  Is there any objective reality, outside the human imagination, in which we are truly equal? . . . According to the science of biology, people were not ‘created’. They have evolved. And they certainly did not evolve to be ‘equal’.  The idea of equality is inextricably intertwined with the idea of creation.  The Americans got the idea of equality from Christianity, which argues that every person has a divinely created soul, and that all souls are equal before God.  However, if we do not believe in the Christian myths about God, creation and souls, what does it mean that all people are ‘equal’?  Evolution is based on difference, not on equality. Every person carries a somewhat different genetic code, and is exposed from birth to different environmental influences.  This leads to the development of different qualities that carry with them different chances of survival.  ‘Created equal’ should therefore be translated into ‘evolved differently’.

Just as people were never created, neither, according to the science of biology, is there a ‘Creator’ who ‘endows’ them with anything. There is only a blind evolutionary process, devoid of any purpose, leading to the birth of individuals. ‘Endowed by their creator’ should be translated simply into ‘born’.

Equally, there are no such things as rights in biology. There are only organs, abilities and characteristics.  Birds do not fly because they have a right to fly, but because they have wings. And it’s not true that these organs, abilities and characteristics are ‘unalienable’.  Many of them undergo constant mutations, and may well be completely lost over time.  The ostrich is a bird that lost its ability to fly. So ‘unalienable rights’ should be translated into ‘mutable characteristics’.

And what are the characteristics that evolved in humans? ‘Life’, certainly. But ‘liberty’? There is no such thing in biology. Just like equality, rights and limited liability companies, liberty is something that people invented and that exists only in their imagination. From a biological viewpoint, it is meaningless to say that humans in democratic societies are free, whereas humans in dictatorships are unfree.

Harari’s analysis is remarkably clear-eyed for a materialist atheist.  He admits that under materialism, human dignity does not exist; universal principles of justice and equality do not exist; human rights do not exist; liberty does not exist.  All of these things are social constructs resulting from entirely contingent physical processes.

Kudos to Harari for acknowledging what he sees when he peers into the abyss.  As for the editors at New Scientists, well, we have their measure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments
Hi Seversky, Re. your comments about the Near Death Experience: I agree with you wholeheartedly that such experiences occur NEAR death, not postmortem; I feel this must always be borne in mind when using NDEs as evidence for the postmortem survival of consciousness. (Yes, the experiencer may be 'clinically dead' by certain definitions, but that surely means they're 'dead-ish' rather than stone-cold-dead - otherwise their resuscitation would have been impossible.) Nevertheless, NDEs are important because, although they do not prove life after death, they DO strongly suggest that the link between the brain and consciousness is much more tenuous than is currently believed. One writer on NDEs - I forget who - commented along the following lines: "If, during an episode when brain function has been reduced to the firing of a handful of neurons, a person can have a rich, detailed, and coherent multi-sensory experience which seems 'realer than real' - what the heck do we need the rest of the brain for?" If we can allow the possibility that consciousness may not be entirely the product of the meat inside our skulls, then we can allow at least the possibility that consciousness is primary and that matter is in some way dependent upon it - which is the conclusion Max Planck arrived at via another direction (physics rather than NDE research). I realise that this is about as counterintuitive as it gets. I mean, it's obvious that the brain is the seat of consciousness, isn't it? Everyone knows that! Yet, with equal conviction about its obviousness, the ancient Egyptians believed consciousness was produced by the heart, which is why they preserved the heart of a mummified Pharaoh in a canopic jar, but threw his brain away. If seriously smart guys like the pyramid builders could get it so wrong, surely that might give us pause to reconsider the received wisdom of our own times? CharlesCharles Birch
April 4, 2018
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Seversky@49, I also wonder at the idea that some think that quantum mechanics is non-material. It is just material science at the sub-atomic level. The fact that it is not fully understood (and 'spooky') does not make it non-material.Allan Keith
April 4, 2018
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bornagain77 @ 41
As to:
“I also don’t see any reason to believe that materialism is false,”
Hmmm, perhaps the entire field of quantum mechanics can provide you a reason?
Quantum mechanics describes how physical reality behaves at a sub-atomic level. To that extent it is a materialistic theory. As for information, perhaps you can find quotes where Vedral and Zeilinger define what they mean by "information"
As to:
“there are certainly some large gaps in our knowledge (and the brain, and thus consciousness is one).”
That is putting it mildly, materialists can’t even explain where a single neuron came from, much less consciousness.
There's a lot of things we still can't explain. But materialism has been a lot more successful than any other approach at whittling down the list of things we can't explain. As for the mind-boggling complexity of the human brain and the staggering numbers of synapses and potential circuits in it, perhaps that might be sufficient to account for the emergence of consciousness. There has to be a reason for maintaining such a very expensive organ.
As to:
Even if nobody understands consciousness, it’s clear that people are conscious, and that this is a function of the brain.
And this is where you go off the rails. Atheists, nor anybody else, (as already referenced) has the slightest clue how consciousness might arise from the brain. Moreover, Near Death Experiences, which have far more evidential support going for them than Darwinian evolution does, supports the claim that consciousness does not need the material brain in order to exist.
No brain, no consciousness. That could be a clue that one is required for the other. As for Near Death Experiences, they appear to be common experiences in the minds of people approaching death, not after. You find verified instances of post-mortem consciousness and you might have a case. Otherwise, NDEs show nothing about the possibility of life after death.
As to:
“(if you want to believe in a soul, then I would hope it’s clear that the soul has to interact with the material world in some way, and that, I presume, would have to be through the brain).”
And so what??? Evidence for the soul, which is what we have with advances in quantum biology, falsifies your Atheistic Materialism.
I've yet to see a clear, agreed definition of what is meant by "soul" so claiming that quantum effects in biology are evidence for it are just wishful thinking at this point.Seversky
April 4, 2018
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Bob O’H: I’m an atheist, but not militant, and also not certain. I’m agnostic in the sense that I don’t view the evidence for any gods as compelling, and thus I conclude that atheism is most likely to be correct.
Your conclusion lacks ground, as W J Murray wrote:
Even if one doesn’t find that evidence compelling for for a final conclusion that god exists, when one weighs the balance of the evidence for and against god, one should be willing to at least consider whether it is more probable that god (as described above) exists than that god does not exist. Problematically (for the atheist), the view that it is more likely that god exists than not is not any sort of an atheistic position. … As far as I am aware of there is no anecdotal or testimonial evidence that god does not exist (because lack of experience of a thing isn’t evidence the thing doesn’t exist), very little in the way of logical argument towards that conclusion, and there is a vast array of logical, anecdotal, testimonial and empirical evidence that god (at least as generally described above) does exist.
Bob O’H: I also don’t see any reason to believe that materialism is false, but there are certainly some large gaps in our knowledge (and the brain, and thus consciousness is one).
It is intellectually honest to consider the possibility that those gaps are permanent. And if they are, then they are reasons to believe that materialism is false. Here is the argument which shows that materialism cannot ground freedom, responsibility, rationality and/or personhood — IOWs it shows that the gaps you are talking about are indeed permanent: If materialism is true, then either determinism is true or there are (sporadic) undetermined events. 1. If determinism is true, then all our actions and thoughts are consequences of events and laws of nature in the remote past before we were born. 3. We have no control over circumstances that existed in the remote past before we were born, nor do we have any control over the laws of nature. 4. If A causes B, and we have no control over A, and A is sufficient for B, then we have no control over B. Therefore 5. If determinism is true, then we have no control over our own actions and thoughts. Therefore, assuming that rationality requires control, 6. If determinism is true, we are not rational. Regarding undetermined events, here is Van Inwagen, who argues that undetermined events (also) fail to ground freedom, control and rationality:
“Let us look carefully at the consequences of supposing that human behavior is undetermined … Let us suppose that there is a certain current-pulse that is proceeding along one of the neural pathways in Jane’s brain and that it is about to come to a fork. And let us suppose that if it goes to the left, she will make her confession;, and that if it goes to the right, she will remain silent. And let us suppose that it is undetermined which way the pulse goes when it comes to the fork: even an omniscient being with a complete knowledge of the state of Jane’s brain and a complete knowledge of the laws of physics and unlimited powers of calculation could say no more than: ‘The laws and present state of her brain would allow the pulse to go either way; consequently, no prediction of what the pulse will do when it comes to the fork is possible; it might go to the left, and it might go to the right, and that’s all there is to be said.’ Now let us ask: does Jane have any choice about whether the pulse goes to the left or to the right? If we think about this question for a moment, we shall see that it is very hard to see how she could have any choice about that. …There is no way for her to make it go one way rather than the other. Or, at least, there is no way for her to make it go one way rather than the other and leave the ‘choice’ it makes an undetermined event.” [Van Inwagen]
Origenes
April 4, 2018
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gpuccio as to,
“if you want to believe in a soul, then I would hope it’s clear that the soul has to interact with the material world in some way, and that, I presume, would have to be through the brain”
Actually the 'interface' of the soul with the body is far more pervasive than just the brain. The 'quantum interface' is found in every biological molecule of the human body.
Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology – video https://youtu.be/LHdD2Am1g5Y Jim Al-Khalili, at the 2:30 minute mark of the following video, states, ",,and Physicists and Chemists have had a long time to try and get use to it (Quantum Mechanics). Biologists, on the other hand have got off lightly in my view. They are very happy with their balls and sticks models of molecules. The balls are the atoms. The sticks are the bonds between the atoms. And when they can't build them physically in the lab nowadays they have very powerful computers that will simulate a huge molecule.,, It doesn't really require much in the way of quantum mechanics in the way to explain it." At the 6:52 minute mark of the video, Jim Al-Khalili goes on to state: “To paraphrase, (Erwin Schrödinger in his book “What Is Life”), he says at the molecular level living organisms have a certain order. A structure to them that’s very different from the random thermodynamic jostling of atoms and molecules in inanimate matter of the same complexity. In fact, living matter seems to behave in its order and its structure just like inanimate cooled down to near absolute zero. Where quantum effects play a very important role. There is something special about the structure, about the order, inside a living cell. So Schrodinger speculated that maybe quantum mechanics plays a role in life”. Jim Al-Khalili – Quantum biology – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOzCkeTPR3Q
Whereas the mind, which is basically a property of the soul, has some 'extra' interface in the brain. The evidence that quantum mechanisms are at play on the macro level of the human brain is revealed by the following. In the following article it is noted that Multielectrode recordings have revealed zero time lag synchronization among remote cerebral cortical areas.
,,, zero time lag neuronal synchrony despite long conduction delays - 2008 Excerpt: Multielectrode recordings have revealed zero time lag synchronization among remote cerebral cortical areas. However, the axonal conduction delays among such distant regions can amount to several tens of milliseconds. It is still unclear which mechanism is giving rise to isochronous discharge of widely distributed neurons, despite such latencies,,, Remarkably, synchrony of neuronal activity is not limited to short-range interactions within a cortical patch. Interareal synchronization across cortical regions including interhemispheric areas has been observed in several tasks (7, 9, 11–14).,,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2575223/ The Puzzling Role Of Biophotons In The Brain - Dec. 17, 2010 Excerpt: It’s certainly true that electrical activity in the brain is synchronised over distances that cannot be easily explained. Electrical signals travel too slowly to do this job, so something else must be at work.,,, ,,, It’s a big jump to assume that photons do this job. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/422069/the-puzzling-role-of-biophotons-in-the-brain/ Quantum Entangled Consciousness - Life After Death - Stuart Hameroff - video (1:55 minute mark) https://youtu.be/jjpEc98o_Oo?t=118
As well, evidence suggesting that quantum mechanisms are at play on the macro level of the human body itself is also revealed in the following article where it is revealed that a subject perceives a sensory stimulus on the skin at the moment the skin is touched, before the stimulus reaches the brain and before full deliberative consciousness occurs.
Do Perceptions Happen in Your Brain? - Michael Egnor - December 1, 2015 Excerpt: The sensory experiments of Benjamin Libet, a neuroscientist at U.C. San Francisco in the mid 20th century, demonstrated that a subject perceives a sensory stimulus on the skin at the moment the skin is touched, before the stimulus reaches the brain and before full deliberative consciousness occurs. Libet was flabbergasted by this result,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/12/do_perceptions101261.html
Moreover, although not referenced in the preceding video, such a 'quantum interface' of the soul to the body provides a coherent answer to the question of what is it exactly that is keeping our material bodies so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium for 'precisely a lifetime and not a moment longer':
The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings - Stephen L. Talbott - 2010 Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. ,,, the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer? Despite the countless processes going on in the cell, and despite the fact that each process might be expected to “go its own way” according to the myriad factors impinging on it from all directions, the actual result is quite different. Rather than becoming progressively disordered in their mutual relations (as indeed happens after death, when the whole dissolves into separate fragments), the processes hold together in a larger unity. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings
Then there is now also evidence that substantiates the fact that immaterial information is physically real and is therefore not a 'metaphor' or a 'emergent property' of a material basis, as Atheistic materialists hold that it is:
Information is physical (but not how Rolf Landauer meant) - video https://youtu.be/H35I83y5Uro - In discussions about information on UD, 99% of the talk on UD about information comes down to, basically, the sheer impossibility of blind searches to find functional sequences in sequence space. This is all fine and well as far it goes, (since it shows Darwinian mechanisms to be grossly inadequate for the task at hand), but I hold that these usual discussions about information on UD completely miss the bigger picture about information. Namely, that immaterial information is now shown experimentally to be its own distinct physical entity that is separate, and independent, from matter and energy. And more specifically, since this distinct physical entity of immaterial information exists separately, and independently, from matter and energy, then any reductive materialistic (i.e. Darwinian) explanations which claim information is merely a “metaphor”, or which claim that information is merely ’emergent’ from a material basis, are falsified empirically with direct physical evidence. That is to say, the fact that immaterial information is now shown experimentally to be a physically real entity that is separate, and independent, from matter and energy changes the entire debate from an argument about whether unguided material processes can ever possibly generate functional information or not, to an empirical observation that immaterial information will never be reducible to any possible reductive materialistic (i.e. Darwinian) explanation, period. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/how-some-materialists-are-blinded-by-their-faith-commitments/#comment-654931
All in all, as far as these advances in science are concerned, the Christian Theist is sitting in a much, much, better position than he was just a few short years ago. And the atheistic materialist has been, basically, completely falsified in some of his most foundation presuppositions concerning molecular biology as it relates to information. Verse:
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
bornagain77
April 4, 2018
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In defense of Bob I'm not really sure if he's a hardcore a/mat but besides that his responses are interesting, thoughtful and with a scientifical basis. If you check the Discovery Institute Facebook page you will find in the coments some of the most bitter, hateful and arrogant materialists you have ever seem.kurx78
April 4, 2018
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Bob O'H at #40: I think your position is very respectable. Of course I would not say that consciousness is a function of the brain, but rather that it is expressed through the brain, at least in the human state. The brain-consciousness interface works in both directions: physical events in neurons become in some way subjective expereinces, and subjective experiences can initiate changes in brain events. The idea of an interface allows space for free will, that IMO is really unrenouncable. So, I am perfectly fine with the way you put it: "if you want to believe in a soul, then I would hope it’s clear that the soul has to interact with the material world in some way, and that, I presume, would have to be through the brain" That's exactly my idea of an interface. Regarding believing in the existence of God, I believe that it's a choice that must come from the deepest part of each person. It cannot be forced. I hope the best for you.gpuccio
April 4, 2018
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Bob O'H: I have no problems with saying I (as a conscious being) exist.
Do you also have no problems with saying that you make free decisions? Or do you hold, instead, that your thoughts and actions are consequences of physical events?Origenes
April 4, 2018
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Hi Bob, Re. your comment at 40, about lack of evidence for God. I've never really understood what sort of evidence atheists are looking for, and what sort of evidence they would consider a convincing basis for theism. Do you have any views on this? CharlesCharles Birch
April 4, 2018
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Bob:
No I don’t believe that the Golden Rule is an illusion.
Then you can't be a materialist.ET
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As to:
"I also don’t see any reason to believe that materialism is false,"
Hmmm, perhaps the entire field of quantum mechanics can provide you a reason?
"The most fundamental definition of reality is not matter or energy, but information–and it is the processing of information that lies at the root of all physical, biological, economic, and social phenomena." Vlatko Vedral - Professor of Physics at the University of Oxford, and CQT (Centre for Quantum Technologies) at the National University of Singapore, and a Fellow of Wolfson College - a recognized leader in the field of quantum mechanics. “It is operationally impossible to separate Reality and Information” (48:35 minute mark) “In the beginning was the Word” John 1:1 (49:54 minute mark) Prof Anton Zeilinger speaks on quantum physics. at UCT https://youtu.be/s3ZPWW5NOrw?t=2984 Albert Einstein vs. Quantum Mechanics and His Own Mind – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxFFtZ301j4
As to:
"there are certainly some large gaps in our knowledge (and the brain, and thus consciousness is one)."
That is putting it mildly, materialists can't even explain where a single neuron came from, much less consciousness.
"Complexity Brake" Defies Evolution - August 8, 2012 Excerpt: Consider a neuronal synapse -- the presynaptic terminal has an estimated 1000 distinct proteins. Fully analyzing their possible interactions would take about 2000 years. Or consider the task of fully characterizing the visual cortex of the mouse -- about 2 million neurons. Under the extreme assumption that the neurons in these systems can all interact with each other, analyzing the various combinations will take about 10 million years..., even though it is assumed that the underlying technology speeds up by an order of magnitude each year. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/complexity_brak062961.html The Half-Truths of Materialist Evolution - DONALD DeMARCO - 02/06/2015 Excerpt: but I would like to direct attention to the unsupportable notion that the human brain, to focus on a single phenomenon, could possibly have evolved by sheer chance. One of the great stumbling blocks for Darwin and other chance evolutionists is explaining how a multitude of factors simultaneously coalesce to form a unified, functioning system. The human brain could not have evolved as a result of the addition of one factor at a time. Its unity and phantasmagorical complexity defies any explanation that relies on pure chance. It would be an underestimation of the first magnitude to say that today’s neurophysiologists know more about the structure and workings of the brain than did Darwin and his associates. Scientists in the field of brain research now inform us that a single human brain contains more molecular-scale switches than all the computers, routers and Internet connections on the entire planet! According to Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology at the Stanford University School of Medicine, the brain’s complexity is staggering, beyond anything his team of researchers had ever imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief. In the cerebral cortex alone, each neuron has between 1,000 to 10,000 synapses that result, roughly, in a total of 125 trillion synapses, which is about how many stars fill 1,500 Milky Way galaxies! A single synapse may contain 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A synapse, simply stated, is the place where a nerve impulse passes from one nerve cell to another. Phantasmagorical as this level of unified complexity is, it places us merely at the doorway of the brain’s even deeper mind-boggling organization. Glial cells in the brain assist in neuron speed. These cells outnumber neurons 10 times over, with 860 billion cells. All of this activity is monitored by microglia cells that not only clean up damaged cells but also prune dendrites, forming part of the learning process. The cortex alone contains 100,000 miles of myelin-covered, insulated nerve fibers. The process of mapping the brain would indeed be time-consuming. It would entail identifying every synaptic neuron. If it took a mere second to identify each neuron, it would require four billion years to complete the project. http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/the-half-truths-of-materialist-evolution/ “Every day we recall the past, perceive the present and imagine the future. How do our brains accomplish these feats? It’s safe to say that nobody really knows.” Sebastian Seung - Massachusetts Institute of Technology neuroscientist - “Connectome”: "Those centermost processes of the brain with which consciousness is presumably associated are simply not understood. They are so far beyond our comprehension at present that no one I know of has been able even to imagine their nature." Roger Wolcott Sperry - Nobel neurophysiologist As quoted in Genius Talk : Conversations with Nobel Scientists and Other Luminaries (1995) by Denis Brian "We have at present not even the vaguest idea how to connect the physio-chemical processes with the state of mind." - Eugene Wigner - Nobel prize-winner – Quantum Symmetries "Science's biggest mystery is the nature of consciousness. It is not that we possess bad or imperfect theories of human awareness; we simply have no such theories at all. About all we know about consciousness is that it has something to do with the head, rather than the foot." Nick Herbert - Contemporary physicist "No experiment has ever demonstrated the genesis of consciousness from matter. One might as well believe that rabbits emerge from magicians' hats. Yet this vaporous possibility, this neuro-mythology, has enchanted generations of gullible scientists, in spite of the fact that there is not a shred of direct evidence to support it." - Larry Dossey - Physician and author "We regard promissory materialism as superstition without a rational foundation. The more we discover about the brain, the more clearly do we distinguish between the brain events and the mental phenomena, and the more wonderful do both the brain events and mental phenomena become. Promissory materialism is simply a religious belief held by dogmatic materialists who often confuse their religion with their science." - John C. Eccles, The Wonder of Being Human: Our Brain and Our Mind - 1984
As to:
"I have no problems with saying I (as a conscious being) exist."
Since that is the most certain thing you can know about reality (Descartes), I am glad you at least have enough common sense to acknowledge that the person of Bob O'Hara really exists. It is interesting to note that, regardless of materialism undermining biology and much of the physical sciences, there is still a very strong tradition in philosophy that holds that the most concrete thing that a person can know about reality is the fact that they are indeed conscious:
"Descartes remarks that he can continue to doubt whether he has a body; after all, he only believes he has a body as a result of his perceptual experiences, and so the demon could be deceiving him about this. But he cannot doubt that he has a mind, i.e. that he thinks. So he knows he exists even though he doesn’t know whether or not he has a body." http://cw.routledge.com/textbooks/philosophy/downloads/a2/unit4/descartes/DescartesDualism.pdf "Descartes said 'I think, therefore I am.' My bet is that God replied, 'I am, therefore think.'" Art Battson - Access Research Group
As to:
Even if nobody understands consciousness, it’s clear that people are conscious, and that this is a function of the brain.
And this is where you go off the rails. Atheists, nor anybody else, (as already referenced) has the slightest clue how consciousness might arise from the brain. Moreover, Near Death Experiences, which have far more evidential support going for them than Darwinian evolution does, supports the claim that consciousness does not need the material brain in order to exist.
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or of a molecular machine), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html
As to:
"(if you want to believe in a soul, then I would hope it’s clear that the soul has to interact with the material world in some way, and that, I presume, would have to be through the brain)."
And so what??? Evidence for the soul, which is what we have with advances in quantum biology, falsifies your Atheistic Materialism.
Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology - video https://youtu.be/LHdD2Am1g5Y
Moreover, a 'soul' provides a coherent basis for 'personhood', for the belief that Bob O'Hara really exists, and which is exactly what the atheistic materialism you defend denies in the first place.
“You don’t have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.” George MacDonald - Annals of a Quiet Neighborhood - 1892
bornagain77
April 4, 2018
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TWSYF @ 39 - FWIW I'm an atheist, but not militant, and also not certain. I'm agnostic in the sense that I don't view the evidence for any gods as compelling, and thus I conclude that atheism is most likely to be correct. I also don't see any reason to believe that materialism is false, but there are certainly some large gaps in our knowledge (and the brain, and thus consciousness is one). I have no problems with saying I (as a conscious being) exist. Even if nobody understands consciousness, it's clear that people are conscious, and that this is a function of the brain (if you want to believe in a soul, then I would hope it's clear that the soul has to interact with the material world in some way, and that, I presume, would have to be through the brain).Bob O'H
April 4, 2018
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Bob @ 36: What exactly are your beliefs? Maybe that would help all of us understand your positions. Do you embrace a particular worldview? Are you atheist, materialist, agnostic, or some sort of combination of the three?Truth Will Set You Free
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Bob (and weave) claims that,,,
I don’t believe that the Golden Rule is an illusion.
and also claims that he is does not believe he is a neuronal illusion,,,
Sorry, can’t help you. You would have to ask someone who thinks that people are “neuronal illusions”.
Yet Bob (and weave) defends atheistic materialism tooth and nail on these very pages of UD. Furthermore, when pressed to defend his views and show how they differentiate in any substantial way from the direct implications of atheistic materialism, he refuses to explain his views clearly, nor does he cite any authority that might explain how it is remotely possible to get 'real' morals and 'real' persons from a worldview that holds the concepts of morality and personhood to be merely illusions of neurons. Bob (and weave), by his refusal to address the issue honestly, once again highlights that his moniker is well deserved. It is not on me to make sense out of his incoherent worldview, it is squarely on him to clearly explain, and defend, for all to see, why his worldview does not collapse into sheer insanity. Simply claiming that he does not believe what his worldview clearly entails will not suffice in the least. Moreover, for Bob (and weave) to take umbrage to the fact that his worldview entails that he is merely a neuronal illusion and that his morals are illusory is, in fact, for him to tactically admit that the atheistic materialism he defends day in and day out is, in fact, false. If atheistic materialism were true, and we are truly just neuronal illusion that have illusions of objective morality, then why should Bob (and weave) be so offended by the suggestion, from leading atheistic philosophers, that those claims within his worldview are actually true? Bob (and weave) reveals his cards in his protestation against the implications of atheistic materialism. I hold that he knows that he can't rationally defend such a insane position and thus resorts to the usual denialism that atheists typically employ to avoid dealing with issues forthrightly. But alas, as mentioned previously, denialism is part and parcel for the atheistic materialist. As Galen Starwson notes "Perhaps it’s not surprising that most Deniers deny that they’re Deniers. “Of course, we agree that consciousness or experience exists,” they say—but when they say this they mean something that specifically excludes qualia.
The Consciousness Deniers – Galen Strawson – March 13, 2018 Excerpt: What is the silliest claim ever made? The competition is fierce, but I think the answer is easy. Some people have denied the existence of consciousness: conscious experience, the subjective character of experience,,,, Perhaps it’s not surprising that most Deniers deny that they’re Deniers. “Of course, we agree that consciousness or experience exists,” they say—but when they say this they mean something that specifically excludes qualia. Who are the Deniers? I have in mind—at least—those who fully subscribe to something called “philosophical behaviorism” as well as those who fully subscribe to something called “functionalism” in the philosophy of mind. Few have been fully explicit in their denial, but among those who have been, we find Brian Farrell, Paul Feyerabend, Richard Rorty, and the generally admirable Daniel Dennett. Ned Block once remarked that Dennett’s attempt to fit consciousness or “qualia” into his theory of reality “has the relation to qualia that the US Air Force had to so many Vietnamese villages: he destroys qualia in order to save them.”,,, This is how philosophers in the twentieth century came to endorse the Denial, the silliest view ever held in the history of human thought. “When I squint just right,” Dennett writes in 2013, “it does sort of seem that consciousness must be something in addition to all the things it does for us and to us, some special private glow or here-I-am-ness that would be absent in any robot… But I’ve learned not to credit the hunch. I think it is a flat-out mistake, a failure of imagination.” His position was summarized in an interview in The New York Times: “The elusive subjective conscious experience—the redness of red, the painfulness of pain—that philosophers call qualia? Sheer illusion.” If he’s right, no one has ever really suffered, in spite of agonizing diseases, mental illness, murder, rape, famine, slavery, bereavement, torture, and genocide. And no one has ever caused anyone else pain. This is the Great Silliness. We must hope that it doesn’t spread outside the academy, or convince some future information technologist or roboticist who has great power over our lives. http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/13/the-consciousness-deniers/
Thus once again Bob (and weave), I ask you to quit playing games and to honestly answer the questions put forth to you in a clear manner.
Since you defend Darwinian evolution, and the materialistic premises therein, then how do you try to ‘bob and weave’ your way out of the direct “neuronal illusion” implications of your worldview? And for a bonus question Bob (and weave), can you prove to me that you really are having a subjective conscious experience and that you are not just a zombie going through the motions of having a subjective conscious experience?:
Moreover, once you clear up those 'illusions' then you can proceed to clear up the many other illusions that permeate your worldview:
Basically the atheist claims he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett), who has the illusion of free will (Harris), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the reality of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is too much for him to bear, and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God. Bottom line, nothing is real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, morality, meaning and purposes for life.
bornagain77
April 4, 2018
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No, Bob, there isn't any misinterpretation by Barry. Even Will Provine agrees with Barry's assessment.ET
April 4, 2018
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bs77 -
Moreover, as an atheist who does not believe the golden rule to be objectively true, but holds it to be illusory,
No I don't believe that the Golden Rule is an illusion. Please don't claim things that aren't true. It makes it look like you're being dishonest. Please, get it into your head that YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY VIEWS, AND YOUR STATEMENTS ABOUT THEM ARE FALSE. Is it really that difficult for you to appreciate that I might have a better idea bout what I believe than you do? Or are you deliberately mis-representing my views?Bob O'H
April 4, 2018
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Bob (and weave) thou dost protest too much seeing that you have in fact once again 'bobbed and weaved' so as avoid answering the questions honestly. Moreover, I hold there can be no essential difference to the 'neuronal illusion' problem for atheistic materialists in any worldview that denies the primacy of consciousness in general and the Mind of God in particular. And that to pretend otherwise is to deceive oneself. Moreover, as an atheist who does not believe the golden rule to be objectively true, but holds it to be illusory, I would certainly appreciate it if you would refrain from the sheer hypocrisy of you trying to lecture me on how to live by it. But alas, since you are just making up morality as you go along, you have no right to be morally offended by my moniker in the first place. Embrace your moral illusions man!bornagain77
April 4, 2018
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ET @ 32 - yes, you're right. Barry wrote that. Not Hariri. Barry is mis-interpreting what Hariri i saying - I think he hasn't appreciated the importance of the "in biology" that Hariri uses a few times. bs77 - within atheism there are many different beliefs. You are asking me about beliefs that I do not share. Is this really so hard for you to understand? You claim to be a Christian. In what way is it loving to be rude and insulting, and to continually misrepresent someone else's views, when they have repeatedly told you that they are mis-representing them? Is the Golden Rule not a part of (objective) Christian morality?Bob O'H
April 4, 2018
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Bob (and weave) O'Hara you state:
"That’s not my worldview, so again, ask someone who holds that worldview. I also think your determination to use your own moniker for me is childish and slightly annoying. It suggests that you’re not interested in having a mature discussion."
But alas Bob (and weave) you defend Darwinian evolution, and the materialistic premises therein, (i.e. atheistic materialism), tooth and nail. Therefore I have no option but to treat you as if you are in fact a Atheistic materialist who rejects Theism. Moreover, your failure to directly answer my questions in 26,,,
Since you defend Darwinian evolution, and the materialistic premises therein, then how do you try to ‘bob and weave’ your way out of the direct “neuronal illusion” implications of your worldview? And for a bonus question Bob (and weave), can you prove to me that you really are having a subjective conscious experience and that you are not just a zombie going through the motions of having a subjective conscious experience?:
,, and to state exactly how your supposedly non-atheistic materialism worldview is to be differentiated from atheistic materialism, it to in fact demonstrate the truthfulness of the Bob (and weave) moniker. Until you engage the issues honestly instead of playing these stupid 'bob and weave' games, your moniker is well deserved. Moreover, under atheistic materialism, your 'slightly annoyed' reaction to being called out for your disingenuous debating style is merely a illusion of morality. Why should I care that your illusory morality is offended. It doesn't exist! I certainly don't care if I offend your notion of pink unicorns. So it is with your illusory sense of morality. To rightfully be offended you would have to reach over and steal from my Christian worldview which holds morality to be objectively real, and which says we should love others as we love ourselves. Yet you deny Christianity in particular. Moreover, the way I see it, I am treating you exactly as I would want to be treated. If my argumentation style was as disingenuous as yours is, I certainly hope someone would have the wherewithal to call me out on it. It is certainly more loving to correct someone who is clearly being disingenuous to the issues at hand than it is to falsely pretend that his lack of candor is to be respected as a valid viewpoint.bornagain77
April 4, 2018
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No, Bob, this is what Barry wrote:
Harari’s analysis is remarkably clear-eyed for a materialist atheist. He admits that under materialism, human dignity does not exist; universal principles of justice and equality do not exist; human rights do not exist; liberty does not exist. All of these things are social constructs resulting from entirely contingent physical processes.
Harari’s analysis- not Barry'sET
April 4, 2018
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ET @ 23 - no, according to Barry, I'm afraid. He was the one suggesting that anything that is socially constructed doesn't exist. ba77 @ 26 - That's not my worldview, so again, ask someone who holds that worldview. I also think your determination to use your own moniker for me is childish and slightly annoying. It suggests that you're not interested in having a mature discussion.Bob O'H
April 4, 2018
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BA77 @ 26: Bob is a man of great faith in unguided natural processes being able to do the impossible... over and over and over again. A/mats now have their own religion, and Bob is clearly on the mission field as he frequents this site... spreading the a/mat anti-gospel.Truth Will Set You Free
April 3, 2018
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@ Dennett
“When I squint just right,” Dennett writes in 2013, “it does sort of seem that consciousness must be something in addition to all the things it does for us and to us …
“… all the things that consciousness does for us and to us …” suggests that consciousness is something distinct from ‘us’. But isn’t it obvious that consciousness is ‘us’, or rather ‘me’? It doesn’t make much sense to speak of ‘my consciousness’ or ‘my I’, but it certainly does not make any sense to speak of consciousness distinct from “I” or “us”.
… some special private glow or here-I-am-ness that would be absent in any robot… But I’ve learned not to credit the hunch.
Who is the “I” in this last sentence? Who has learned not to credit the hunch that he exists?
I think it is a flat-out mistake, a failure of imagination.”
Who thinks Dennett? You say “I think”, but who is this “I”? Is this “I” the thing you call “a failure of imagination”? And lastly, whose imagination are you talking about?Origenes
April 3, 2018
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From Bornagain77's post
“When I squint just right,” Dennett writes in 2013, “it does sort of seem that consciousness must be something in addition to all the things it does for us and to us, some special private glow or here-I-am-ness that would be absent in any robot… But I’ve learned not to credit the hunch. I think it is a flat-out mistake, a failure of imagination.”
I get a kick out of hyperrealists talking nonsense. Dennett has "learned". Right in the middle of doubting himself, he asserts himself--and that he has done something like learning--but not just that, that learning is something as this illusory self represents it to be, such that it makes a difference whether or not he regards a hunch He has learned not to unquestioningly accept himself as a valid term. And that's what he has through the constancy of awareness, learned. In addition, he doubts himself--and not his trained judgment in rejecting hunches. He doesn't regard the well-known shoals of self-reference--instead he almost uses it as a conditioned reflex to the sensation of having a hunch, to confidently sail in. Talk about somebody totally removed from their natural existence.jjcassidy
April 3, 2018
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Well, I don't know 'bout ya'll, but I know I exist. Therefore, the social constructs emergent from the threads of the illusory traces of your existences that I've constructed within my mind are real in some form, should I choose to recognize them. Be at ease.LocalMinimum
April 3, 2018
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Bob (and weave) O'Hara, Since you defend Darwinian evolution, and the materialistic premises therein, then how do you try to 'bob and weave' your way out of the direct "neuronal illusion" implications of your worldview?
“We have so much confidence in our materialist assumptions (which are assumptions, not facts) that something like free will is denied in principle. Maybe it doesn’t exist, but I don’t really know that. Either way, it doesn’t matter because if free will and consciousness are just an illusion, they are the most seamless illusions ever created. Film maker James Cameron wishes he had special effects that good.” Matthew D. Lieberman – neuroscientist – materialist – UCLA professor "Most people don’t feel identical to their bodies. They feel like they have bodies. They feel like they’re inside the body. And most people feel like they’re inside their heads. Now that sense of being a subject, a locus of consciousness inside the head is an illusion. It makes no neuro-anatomical sense.” Sam Harris: The Self is an Illusion "What you’re doing is simply instantiating a self: the program run by your neurons which you feel is “you.”" Jerry Coyne https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2015/04/04/eagleton-on-baggini-on-free-will/ The Confidence of Jerry Coyne - Ross Douthat - January 6, 2014 Excerpt: then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant:,,) Read more here: http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?_r=0 "The Astonishing Hypothesis is that "You," your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing." Francis Crick - Astonishing Hypothesis: The Scientific Search for the Soul (p. 3) "The neural circuits in our brain manage the beautifully coordinated and smoothly appropriate behavior of our body. They also produce the entrancing introspective illusion that thoughts really are about stuff in the world. This powerful illusion has been with humanity since language kicked in, as we’ll see. It is the source of at least two other profound myths: that we have purposes that give our actions and lives meaning and that there is a person “in there” steering the body, so to speak." [A.Rosenberg, The Atheist's Guide To Reality, Ch.9] “There is only one sort of stuff, namely, matter-the physical stuff of physics, chemistry, and physiology-and the mind is somehow nothing but a physical phenomenon. In short, the mind is the brain.” - Daniel Dennett The Consciousness Deniers - Galen Strawson - March 13, 2018 Excerpt: What is the silliest claim ever made? The competition is fierce, but I think the answer is easy. Some people have denied the existence of consciousness: conscious experience, the subjective character of experience,,,, Perhaps it’s not surprising that most Deniers deny that they’re Deniers. “Of course, we agree that consciousness or experience exists,” they say—but when they say this they mean something that specifically excludes qualia. Who are the Deniers? I have in mind—at least—those who fully subscribe to something called “philosophical behaviorism” as well as those who fully subscribe to something called “functionalism” in the philosophy of mind. Few have been fully explicit in their denial, but among those who have been, we find Brian Farrell, Paul Feyerabend, Richard Rorty, and the generally admirable Daniel Dennett. Ned Block once remarked that Dennett’s attempt to fit consciousness or “qualia” into his theory of reality “has the relation to qualia that the US Air Force had to so many Vietnamese villages: he destroys qualia in order to save them.”,,, This is how philosophers in the twentieth century came to endorse the Denial, the silliest view ever held in the history of human thought. “When I squint just right,” Dennett writes in 2013, “it does sort of seem that consciousness must be something in addition to all the things it does for us and to us, some special private glow or here-I-am-ness that would be absent in any robot… But I’ve learned not to credit the hunch. I think it is a flat-out mistake, a failure of imagination.” His position was summarized in an interview in The New York Times: “The elusive subjective conscious experience—the redness of red, the painfulness of pain—that philosophers call qualia? Sheer illusion.” If he’s right, no one has ever really suffered, in spite of agonizing diseases, mental illness, murder, rape, famine, slavery, bereavement, torture, and genocide. And no one has ever caused anyone else pain. This is the Great Silliness. We must hope that it doesn’t spread outside the academy, or convince some future information technologist or roboticist who has great power over our lives. http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/13/the-consciousness-deniers/ Could Consciousness be an Illusion? June 30, 2014 - Excerpt: "I recently participated in a conference which was unusual for a couple of reasons. Firstly it was held in a sailing boat in the Arctic. Secondly the consensus view of the conference was that consciousness is an illusion. This view, ‘illusionism’, is about as far removed from my own perspective in philosophy of mind as it is possible to get. Me the panpsychist, Martine Nida-Rümelin the substance dualist, and David Chalmers who splits his opinion between these two views, formed the official on board opposition to the hard-core reductionist majority. Somehow we managed to avoid being made to walk the plank.",, Illusionism is even less plausible than solipsism: the view that my conscious mind is the only thing that exists.,,, http://conscienceandconsciousness.com/2014/06/30/could-consciousness-be-an-illusion/ At the 23:33 minute mark of the following video, Richard Dawkins agrees with materialistic philosophers who say that: "consciousness is an illusion" A few minutes later Rowan Williams asks Dawkins ”If consciousness is an illusion…what isn’t?”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWN4cfh1Fac&t=22m57s
And for a bonus question Bob (and weave), can you prove to me that you really are having a subjective conscious experience and that you are not just a zombie going through the motions of having a subjective conscious experience?:
“(Daniel) Dennett concludes, ‘nobody is conscious … we are all zombies’.” J.W. SCHOOLER & C.A. SCHREIBER - Experience, Meta-consciousness, and the Paradox of Introspection - 2004 David Chalmers on Consciousness (Descartes, Philosophical Zombies and the Hard Problem) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1Yo6VbRoo Philosophical Zombies - cartoon http://existentialcomics.com/comic/11
Of supplemental note, science, particularly quantum mechanics, is definitely on the side of Theists who hold Mind to be primary and matter to be derivative from consciousness:
“No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” Max Planck (1858–1947), the main founder of quantum theory, The Observer, London, January 25, 1931 “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334. Albert Einstein vs. Quantum Mechanics and His Own Mind – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxFFtZ301j4
bornagain77
April 3, 2018
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Let me see ... we have social constructs hallucinated by neuronal illusions and the question is whether those exist or not ... hmmm ...Origenes
April 3, 2018
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And I apologize to Bob. Clearly he had a clue and obviously I didn't- when it comes to social constructs.ET
April 3, 2018
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OK so under materialism the USA does not exist- according to HarariET
April 3, 2018
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ba77 @ 20 - Sorry, can't help you. You would have to ask someone who thinks that people are "neuronal illusions". ET @ 21 - By that definition, the USA certainly is a social construction. As they write:
Obvious social constructs include such things as games, language, money, school grades, titles, governments, universities, corporations and other institutions. (emphasis added)
Bob O'H
April 3, 2018
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