29 Replies to “Materialsts Now Have Their Creation Story

  1. 1
    tgpeeler says:

    Yes. And may I add that it’s about as coherent as the current version. 🙂

  2. 2
    QuiteID says:

    Wow, that is great! Reading it I was reminded of something I hadn’t read for decades: a great pamphlet put out by Inter-Varsity Press called The Western Book of the Dead.. The text is available here (in pdf form).

  3. 3
    LarTanner says:

    I like how the writer personifies Nothing, Time, Chance, and Everything.

  4. 4
    Joseph says:

    Hi Barry, I told him he was missing a character-

    “Poof the Magic Mutant” (not to be confused with Puff The Magic Dragon)

    Everybody join in-

    Poof the Magic Mutant, a-t-g-c
    And changed them just by ramdomness just to see what he could be
    Little Richard Dawkins, loved that rascal Poof
    And wrote him books, to appease the kooks, what a silly goof

    Oh, Poof the Magic Mutant, a-t-g-c
    And changed them just by ramdomness just to see what he could be

    Yeah baby… 🙂

  5. 5
    Upright BiPed says:

    …still laughin

  6. 6
    Berceuse says:

    It’s funny, but I can hear the atheist camp calling it a strawman

  7. 7
    Berceuse says:

    Which might make sense because the materialist creation theory is a strawmen in itself.

  8. 8
    Berceuse says:


  9. 9
    Joseph says:

    Funny, I can hear the atheists singing it by the camp-fire. Maybe that’s just me- pass the smores…

    But hey, if you liked that, you may also like this.



  10. 10
    bb says:

    “Hidden away in a small alcove called Somewhere, Everything found what Time and Chance had needed all along: Information.” – ROFL

  11. 11
    above says:

    This is brilliant. Really enjoyed reading it.

    I don’t think this is a strawman at all to be honest. That exactly what the atheist narrative basically is.

  12. 12
    bornagain77 says:

    Michael Egnor ‘coincidentally’ just wrote a article that is strangely relevant to the atheist’s creation myth:

    Why Doesn’t the NCSE Have an Atheism Project? Michael Egnor

  13. 13
    tgpeeler says:

    Joseph, very nice. Thanks!

  14. 14
    above says:

    Thanks for the link. I especially enjoyed the story of Egnor where he proves novella wrong using that experiment of the lady in a vegetative state.

  15. 15
    Upright BiPed says:

    The more Egnor I read…

    I would hate to have to debate him.

  16. 16
    Blue_Savannah says:

    Cheers to Barry and Joseph for the laughs!

  17. 17
    toc says:

    To date, I have not read or seen anything quite like Peter Atkins’s lecture, calling upon future physicists to define the properties of “absolutly nothing, whatever that is…” And to think he actually considers this a coherent line of reasoning. ( Apologies to those who might have already seen this. )


  18. 18
    bornagain77 says:

    What Would The World Look Like If Atheism Were Actually True? – video


    Michael Behe has a profound answer to the infinite multiverse argument in “Edge of Evolution”. If there are infinite universes, then we couldn’t trust our senses, because it would be just as likely that our universe might only consist of a human brain that pops into existence which has the neurons configured just right to only give the appearance of past memories. It would also be just as likely that we are floating brains in a lab, with some scientist feeding us fake experiences. Those scenarios would be just as likely as the one we appear to be in now (one universe with all of our experiences being “real”). Bottom line is, if there really are an infinite number of universes out there, then we can’t trust anything we perceive to be true, which means there is no point in seeking any truth whatsoever.

    BRUCE GORDON: Hawking irrational arguments – October 2010
    Excerpt: The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world. Neither is it the case that “nothing” is unstable, as Mr. Hawking and others maintain. Absolute nothing cannot have mathematical relationships predicated on it, not even quantum gravitational ones. Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.,,, the evidence for string theory and its extension, M-theory, is nonexistent; and the idea that conjoining them demonstrates that we live in a multiverse of bubble universes with different laws and constants is a mathematical fantasy. What is worse, multiplying without limit the opportunities for any event to happen in the context of a multiverse – where it is alleged that anything can spontaneously jump into existence without cause – produces a situation in which no absurdity is beyond the pale.
    For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the “Boltzmann Brain” problem: In the most “reasonable” models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science.

    Dr. Bruce Gordon – The Absurdity Of The Multiverse & Materialism in General – video

  19. 19
    bornagain77 says:

    Steve Martin: Atheists Don’t Have No Songs – video

  20. 20
    bornagain77 says:

    just up at science daily:

    Generating Matter and Antimatter from Nothing

    at least there is a little honesty in how they admit they are defining ‘nothing’

    Excerpt: At the heart of this work is the idea that a vacuum is not exactly nothing.

  21. 21
    kairosfocus says:


    Let us do a little highlighting . . .


    >>Under just the right conditions — which involve an ultra-high-intensity laser beam and a two-mile-long particle accelerator — it could be possible to create something out of nothing, according to University of Michigan researchers.

    The scientists and engineers have developed new equations that show how a high-energy electron beam combined with an intense laser pulse could rip apart a vacuum into its fundamental matter and antimatter components, and set off a cascade of events that generates additional pairs of particles and antiparticles.

    “We can now calculate how, from a single electron, several hundred particles can be produced. We believe this happens in nature near pulsars and neutron stars,” said Igor Sokolov, an engineering research scientist who conducted this research along with associate research scientist John Nees, emeritus electrical engineering professor Gerard Mourou and their colleagues in France.

    At the heart of this work is the idea that a vacuum is not exactly nothing.

    “It is better to say, following theoretical physicist Paul Dirac, that a vacuum, or nothing, is the combination of matter and antimatter — particles and antiparticles.Their density is tremendous, but we cannot perceive any of them because their observable effects entirely cancel each other out,” Sokolov said. >>

    So, now it depends on what the meaning of “nothing” is.

    “Nothing” in the sense above, is something!

    GEM of TKI

  22. 22
    bornagain77 says:

    kf, yes it is fairly contorted reasoning to get to ‘nothing’. and Though I truly don’t know how much success they will have verifying the splitting of an electron into ‘several hundred’ particles, I do know that if they do succeed, it will be by further dividing the ‘infinite information’ upon which the electron is ultimately based into discrete chunks of ‘specified infinite information’:


    Zeilinger’s principle
    The principle that any elementary system carries just one bit of information. This principle was put forward by the Austrian physicist Anton Zeilinger in 1999 and subsequently developed by him to derive several aspects of quantum mechanics.

    In the beginning was the bit – New Scientist
    Excerpt: Zeilinger’s principle leads to the intrinsic randomness found in the quantum world. Consider the spin of an electron. Say it is measured along a vertical axis (call it the z axis) and found to be pointing up. Because one bit of information has been used to make that statement, no more information can be carried by the electron’s spin. Consequently, no information is available to predict the amounts of spin in the two horizontal directions (x and y axes), so they are of necessity entirely random. If you then measure the spin in one of these directions, there is an equal chance of its pointing right or left, forward or back. This fundamental randomness is what we call Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle.

    Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe?
    Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: “In the beginning was the Word.” Anton Zeilinger – a leading expert in quantum teleportation:

    It is also very interesting to note in this following paper that the quantum state of a photon is actually defined as ‘infinite information’:

    Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh
    Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) — Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a (photon) qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport.

    It should be noted in the preceding paper that Duwell, though he never challenges the mathematical definition of a photon qubit as infinite information, tries to refute Bennett’s interpretation of infinite information transfer in teleportation because of what he believes are ‘time constraints’ which would prohibit teleporting ‘backwards in time’. Yet Duwell fails to realize that information is its own completely unique transcendent entity, completely separate from any energy-matter, space-time, constraints in the first place. A few more details on Duwell’s flawed ‘materialistic’ reasoning in trying to refute Bennett’s interpretation of the teleportation of infinite information are here:

    etc.. etc..

    You know kf it is somewhat funny, here these guys are, supposedly very , very bright men, and yet they never seem to pause to ask, ‘from whence did space/time itself come from in the big bang?’ This is especially ironic sense answering that question first would give a much firmer foothold for them to possibly understand the particular problem they are working on:


    Further reflection on the quantum teleportation experiment:

    That a photon would actually be destroyed upon the teleportation (separation) of its ‘infinite’ information to another photon is a direct controlled violation of the first law of thermodynamics. (i.e. a photon ‘disappeared’ from the ‘material’ universe when the entire information content of a photon was ‘transcendently displaced’ from the material universe by the experiment, when photon “c” transcendently became transmitted photon “a”). Thus, Quantum teleportation is direct empirical validation for the primary tenet of the Law of Conservation of Information (i.e. ‘transcendent’ information cannot be created or destroyed). This conclusion is warranted because information exercises direct dominion of energy, telling energy exactly what to be and do in the experiment. Thus, this experiment provides a direct line of logic that transcendent information cannot be created or destroyed and, in information demonstrating transcendence, and dominion, of space-time and matter-energy, becomes the only known entity that can satisfactorily explain where all energy came from as far as the origination of the universe is concerned. That is transcendent information is the only known entity which can explain where all the energy came from in the Big Bang without leaving the bounds of empirical science as the postulated multiverse does. Clearly anything that exercises dominion of the fundamental entity of this physical universe, a photon of energy, as transcendent information does in teleportation, must of necessity possess the same, as well as greater, qualities as energy does possess in the first law of thermodynamics (i.e. Energy cannot be created or destroyed by any known material means according to the first law). To reiterate, since information exercises dominion of energy in quantum teleportation then all information that can exist, for all past, present and future events of energy, already must exist.
    As well, the fact that quantum teleportation shows an exact ‘location dominion’, of a photon of energy by ‘specified infinite information’, satisfies a major requirement for the entity needed to explain the missing Dark Matter. The needed transcendent explanation would have to dominate energy in a very similar ‘specified location’ fashion, as is demonstrated by the infinite information of quantum teleportation, to satisfy what is needed to explain the missing dark matter.

    Colossians 1:17
    He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

    Moreover, the fact that simple quantum entanglement shows ‘coordinated universal control’ of entangled photons of energy, by transcendent information, regardless of distance, satisfies a major requirement for the entity which must explain the missing Dark Energy. i.e. The transcendent entity, needed to explain Dark Energy, must explain why the entire space of the universe is expanding in such a finely-tuned, coordinated, degree, and would have to employ a mechanism of control very similar to what we witness in the quantum entanglement experiment.

    Job 9:8
    He stretches out the heavens by Himself and walks on the waves of the sea.

    Thus ‘infinite transcendent information’ provides a coherent picture of overarching universal control, and specificity, that could possibly unify gravity with the other forces. It very well may be possible to elucidate, mathematically, the overall pattern God has chosen to implement infinite information in this universe. The following article backs up this assertion:

    Is Unknown Force In Universe Acting On Dark Matter?
    Excerpt: It is possible that a non-gravitational fifth force is ruling the dark matter with an invisible hand, leaving the same fingerprints on all galaxies, irrespective of their ages, shapes and sizes.” ,,Such a force might solve an even bigger mystery, known as ‘dark energy’, which is ruling the accelerated expansion of the Universe. A more radical solution is a revision of the laws of gravity first developed by Isaac Newton in 1687 and refined by Albert Einstein’s theory of General Relativity in 1916. Einstein never fully decided whether his equation should add an omnipresent constant source, now called dark energy. ,,Dr Famaey added, “If we account for our observations with a modified law of gravity, it makes perfect sense to replace the effective action of hypothetical dark matter with a force closely related to the distribution of visible matter.”

    “I discovered that nature was constructed in a wonderful way, and our task is to find out its mathematical structure”
    Albert Einstein

  23. 23
    Frost122585 says:


    I agree with you. This is a Harvard Lawyer trick by learned philosophers posing as physicists with the intent of confusing the masses.

    You cannot get something out of nothing- this is a total contradiction and if this is true then ANYTHING can be true- and no contradictions exist- which means information has no truth value. That amounts to liberal relativism at its finest-and it is both ignorant and false.

    What is really at stake here is the issue of fundamental physics of whether everything is comprised of matter or so called anti-matter. This is the age old materialist mantra.

    It is true due to the Heisenberg uncertainty principal that events- such as the emergence of small quantum phenomena, can “seemingly” come out of nowhere- particularly when large samples and chaotic circumstances are observed. But no one truly know how these emerging phenomena are brought into existence- and no one knows exactly “where” they come from. Teleportation is not an explanation- as teleportation only has to do with moving one object from one place to another via some not well understood quantum tunneling pathway. But as with any physical experiment you have the issue of primary causation and physical uncertainty always at play- thus, whether ANYTHING actually exists at all is always in question.

    But in the case of theoretical thought experiments involving 2 mile long particle accelerators and the like- one should remain very skeptical of what they may claim to explain until it has been thoroughly investigated and demonstrated.

    As far as the new equations that physicists claim can show how hundreds of particles can be produced by a single electron- it would be wise to understand that these new speculative theories may not demonstrate what they advertise- as these kinds of highly complex phenomena are barely understood. Anti-matter itself is not well understood- even though physicists talk a good game to get more grants- and just like dark matter which isn’t only not well understood but may not exist at all.

    While these ideas can tentatively be used to explain some things there are certainly plenty o good questions surrounding their very nature.

    And so it does not matter what one means by “nothing”- because nothing has an exact, simple and easily understood meaning- unlike these other theoretical phenomena. Nothing means- the absence of anything.

    You cannot get something out of no thing- you must have some other foolish things to rely on as an explanatory starter- such as anti-matter or a 2 mile long particle accelerator, to fall back on.

    Dembski said it all with the No Free Lunch theory of informational origins. You cannot get specified complexity out of chaos -without some intelligent starter to fall back on. There is no chance of it.

    As per theology it must be admitted that God could – if he so wanted- to produce matter out of nothing- and so something could in principal come out of “nothing physical”- but it will not come out of nothing at all- for there must be a starter- a non material mind- or matter and information giver- “creating” these things into existence. So if a God was creating these things into existence it would still be comig from somewhere- and somehow- though this may very wellnot be understood- which is my point.

    And in the physical sense there must be source where a law for this kind of phenomena would come from in the beginning- a physical origin of matter comming from nothing… Since a physical law for allowing creation of matter out of nothing is inherently mysterious- i do say suprnatural- if this was a basic law of the universe it would mean we live in a universe that is manifestly not understandable- which is fine but a defeating conclusion for science.

    So, in the physical sense something cannot come from nothing- at least not in an understandable way- nor can it in the full theological sense happen either.

    Thus, the statement, “something can come out of nothing” is both false, and when used in the vernacular it is misleading.

  24. 24
    Ilion says:

    BA77 @ 18:What Would The World Look Like If Atheism Were Actually True?

    It would be a world in which there are no minds, nor could ever be minds. It would be a world in which thought is logically impossible; it would be a world in which knowledge is logically impossible; it would be a world in which communication is logically impossible; it would be a world in which information is logically impossible; and so on.

  25. 25

    The only thing that comes from literally no-thing repeatedly is information coming from immaterial mind (symphonies, novels, space shuttle blueprints and so on…). If the information itself coming from mind was subject to physical law there would be no creativity. Free agents exert energy when they will information to materialize into a physical medium (voice, keystroke sequences, bits) and are essentially able to transform energy into matter (E=mc²). There is an information source at the origin of the universe which is simple and effortless, which makes the statement “And God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and there was light” plausible.

  26. 26
    QuiteID says:

    Nobody can say that ID doesn’t have a sense of humor!

    bornagain77, thank you for that Steve Martin song: funny, though he doesn’t really get that the joke’s on him.

    Joseph, now I’ve got “Poof the Magic Mutant” running through my head. I don’t know whether I should thank you or curse you. 🙂 Pretty funny tho.

  27. 27
    zeroseven says:

    Illion I can’t even imagine what kind of philosophical world you inhabit to come to that view.

    Actually, the view does seem to be emerging that the universe is quite possibly “nothing” or at least comes from nothing. It is now considered by many theoretical physicists that the total energy of the universe is zero.

    BA you will no doubt be aware of the theories of null-physics. This takes all the results and theories of quantum physics and relativity and then asks “why” things are that way. Why there is a universe – a question which is out of bounds to mainstream science.

    The answer they have come up with is that it is impossible for their not to be a universe, as it simply represents the internal structure of zero or nothing. Easy to scoff at theories like this and smirk about how crazy this is but that is so human-centric. The universe I am sure will emerge to be a far more astounding, crazy, illogical thing than we can ever conceive of.

  28. 28
    Joseph says:

    OK OK I know everyone has been waiting for the finished version- although it is missing a few lines in the last verse:

    Poof the Magic Mutant, a-t-g-c
    And changed them just by randomness to see what he could be.
    Little Richard Dawkins, loved that rascal Poof.
    And wrote him books to appease the kooks, oh what a silly goof!

    Oh Poof the Magic Mutant, a-t-g-c
    And changed them just by randomness just to see what he could be
    Poof the Magic Mutant, a-t-g-c
    And changed them just by randomness just to see what he could be

    Together they would babble and gloat like a hallowed grail
    Richard kept a lookout perched on Poof’s mutating tail.
    Nobel things and atheists bowed whene’er they came
    Scientists would lower their flasks when Poof roared out his name.

    Oh Poof the Magic Mutant, a-t-g-c
    And changed them just by randomness just to see what he could be
    Poof the Magic Mutant, a-t-g-c
    And changed them just by randomness just to see what he could be

    Mutations can’t go on forever, just like little boys
    Antennaed wings and giant things doom nature’s mutant ploys
    One gray night it happened, natural selection said no more
    And Poof that Magic Mutant, he ceased his fearless roar

    Oh Poof the Magic Mutant, a-t-g-c
    And changed them just by randomness just to see what he could be
    Poof the Magic Mutant, a-t-g-c
    And changed them just by randomness just to see what he could be

    repeat chorus and fade…

    Thank you, I’ll be here all week…

  29. 29
    Joseph says:

    I have been bee given a clue as to where Poof was born and lived- inside of Mt. Improbable

    HT to Eugen

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