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Maybe Carl Zimmer is free to read Science and Human Origins now …

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We may have answered his question. A little background:

Recently, we noted that prominent science writer Carl Zimmer was in a tangle with Discovery Institute’s David Klinghoffer arising from a discussion on a Facebook page: His issue here was this paragraph:

But the idea of such an event having occurred at all is itself far from sure. The telomeric DNA parked in the middle of chromosome 2 is not a unique phenomenon. Other mammals have it too, across their own genomes. Even if it were unique, there’s much less of it than you would expect from the amalgamation of two telomeres. Finally, it appears in a “degenerate,” “highly diverged” form that should not be the case if the joining happened in the recent past, circa 6 million years ago, as the Darwinian interpretation holds.
I was baffled, so I asked on Facebook for the evidence that the form of the chromosome wasn’t what you’d expect if it fused six million years ago.

What followed was a ridiculous runaround, some of which I’ll reproduce here: More.

Well, a reader writes to say, here is where the idea might have originated:

This 1991 Pub Med paper:

Genomic divergences between humans and other hominoids and the effective population size of the common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees.

Chen FC, Li WH., Department of Life Science, National Tsing Hua University, Taiwan.

If the fusion occurred within the telomeric repeat arrays less than ~6 Mya, why are the arrays at the fusion site so degenerate? The arrays are 14% diverged from canonical telomere repeats (not shown), whereas noncoding sequence has diverged There are three possible explanations: (1) Given the many instances of degenerate telomeric arrays within the subtelomeric regions of human chromosomes (Riethman et al. 2001), the chromosomes joined at interstitial arrays near, but not actually at, their ends. In this case, material from the very ends of the fusion partners would have been discarded. (2) The arrays were originally true terminal arrays that degenerated rapidly after the fusion. This high rate of change is plausible, given the remarkably high allelic variation observed at the fusion site. The arrays in the BAC and the sequence obtained by Ijdo et al. (1991) differ by 12%, which is high even if some differences are ascribed to experimental error. (3) Some array degeneracy could be a consequence of sequencing errors. We have not been able to PCR successfully across the fusion site, which would be required to assess the contribution of sequencing errors to this measure of fusion-site sequence polymorphism. However, explanation 2 is supported by the high variability among allelic copies of other interstitial telomeric repeats and associated regions sequenced by Mondello et al. (2000) (AF236886 and AF236885). Considering the high mutability of interstitial telomere repeat arrays, the fusion partners could have joined either within terminal or subterminal arrays to form chromosome 2.

Was this where the idea originated?

Now Carl Zimmer is free to read the book anyway.

See also: Here, Cornelius Hunter addresses the Zimmer-Klinghoffer conflict.

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Comments
Isn't the fusion argument brought to us by the same people who championed the upwards to 90% junk DNA argument?bornagain77
July 23, 2012
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BTW, I don't think there was an actual conspiracy to not provide the reference. I just think as soon as you read what the refernce says you'd realise the paper was being misrepresented (as you can see above), so they put on the "do anything but answer Carl show".wd400
July 23, 2012
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Of course the DI was "itching" to have a debate - that's how it works when doubt is your product. Share a "stage" with prominent "darwinist" and it hardly even matters what you say, your on the same standing. Provide a citation for your claims? No, that's too hard.wd400
July 23, 2012
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wd400, How does your conspiracy theory gel with the fact that the Biological Institute were itching to debate Zimmer on the subject? Let me remind you that it was Zimmer (as well as Matzke) who ran scared. The B.I. were willing to lay their entire argument on the line. The Dishonest for Darwin duo were not. That speaks volumes.Jammer
July 23, 2012
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We think he should just read the book.News
July 23, 2012
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Heh, News, I'm not sure you got the memo. The thing about not giving Carl his answer was that it would give away how vacuous the argument Luskin and Klinghoffer were making was...wd400
July 23, 2012
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As to the chromosome 2 fusion controversy, Here is post about a study that just came out:
(Chromosome 2 fusion?) Ends In the Middle: Internal Telomere Sequences are Common in the Human Genome - Tomkins, J. and J. Bergman - July 12, 2012 Excerpt: This fusion paradigm or model involves several genetic issues. In two recent Journal of Creation publications by myself and colleague Jerry Bergman, it is shown that the published genetic data surrounding the fusion model, including additional recent bioinformatic analyses that I performed, effectively show that the hypothetical fusion event did not occur (2,3). During the course of my research, it became apparent that the presence of telomere repeats within the internal regions of human chromosomes was more prevalent than commonly realized. While a number of studies have characterized a few internal telomere-rich areas, the genome-wide distribution of internal telomere sequences is not well documented in the scientific literature. In my research, it became evident that telomere repeats were not unique to the ends of chromosomes. Therefore, I developed software that enables the scanning of whole chromosomes for internal telomere content. Fully assembled human chromosome sequence was then downloaded from the public DNA repository at the National Center for Biotechnology. Prior to scanning for telomeres and telomere repeats, the ends of each chromosome were manually trimmed to remove the telomeres at the termini, including telomere-dense areas in adjacent sub-telomeres. Surprisingly, I discovered that the entire human genome contains many completely intact internal telomere sequences. My preliminary data suggests that the internal regions of human chromosomes are composed of 0.19 to 0.25 percent 100% sequence identity intact telomere sequences. While this may seem to be a very small amount, consider that chromosome 2 (the supposed fusion product) contains over 91,000 (0.23 percent) intact internal telomere sequences. Fewer than 300 of these can be attributed to the so-called fusion site. Chromosome Y was the most internally dense telomere containing chromosome (0.25 percent). The scanning software also detected tandem repeats of telomeres. In the fusion site on chromosome 2, there are a small number of cases where the 6-base telomeres occur in perfect tandem, but never more than two in a row. However, other internal regions of chromosome 2 contain perfect tandems of 3 to 10 telomere repeats. In fact, all human chromosomes contain many internal regions of perfect tandem telomere repeats. Clearly, the presence of telomere sequence at the so-called fusion site is not a unique feature, but a genome-wide paradigm. I hope to have my human genome telomere scanning research published soon in a refereed science paper and will make a note of it on this blog when that time comes. http://designed-dna.org/blog/files/d565c8e0bd41f9de83af00d9711258f6-27.php
Of course a atheist immediately objected that is was 'YEC',
A YEC made up a bunch of crap to support his YEC views, published them in a crap YEC 'science' journal. Another YEC with crap for brains swallowed it uncritically and C&Ped the crap here.
but then I reminded him: "I do not hold a YEC position, but as I stated earlier, at least YEC's can justify a purpose for 'doing science':"
"Atheists may do science, but they cannot justify what they do. When they assume the world is rational, approachable, and understandable, they plagiarize Judeo-Christian presuppositions about the nature of reality and the moral need to seek the truth. As an exercise, try generating a philosophy of science from hydrogen coming out of the big bang. It cannot be done. It’s impossible even in principle, because philosophy and science presuppose concepts that are not composed of particles and forces. They refer to ideas that must be true, universal, necessary and certain." Creation-Evolution Headlines http://creationsafaris.com/crev201102.htm#20110227a Philosopher Sticks Up for God Excerpt: Theism, with its vision of an orderly universe superintended by a God who created rational-minded creatures in his own image, “is vastly more hospitable to science than naturalism,” with its random process of natural selection, he (Plantinga) writes. “Indeed, it is theism, not naturalism, that deserves to be called ‘the scientific worldview.’” http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/14/books/alvin-plantingas-new-book-on-god-and-science.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all Modern science was conceived, and born, and flourished in the matrix of Christian theism. Only liberal doses of self-deception and double-think, I believe, will permit it to flourish in the context of Darwinian naturalism. ~ Alvin Plantinga
Even Albert Einstein, although he was certainly not thought of as a particularly religious person, reflects how the Judeo-Christian worldview influenced his overall view of reality in this following quote;
“I want to know God’s thoughts; the rest are details.” Albert Einstein
bornagain77
July 23, 2012
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Total abject defeat of Luskin, Klinghoffer, Cornelius Hunter, etc., on this issue: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2012/07/23/and-finally-the-hounding-duck-can-rest/NickMatzke_UD
July 23, 2012
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1991 Pub Med paper:
You mean 2001 paper. The explanations in the paper are quite obvious and reasonable, so where in the heck did Luskin and Klinghoffer get the idea that they could mine the bit asking the question, and safely claim the evidence was oh-so-ambiguous????NickMatzke_UD
July 23, 2012
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