Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

“Meaning” vs. “MEANING”

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Thank you to Aleta for taking up the opposing view of the nature of meaning in my Gotta Serve Somebody post.  I started to write a response to his comment 34 and quickly realized that any response would be OP-sized and decided to start a new OP.

Some Definitions

“disagreement is not an easy thing to reach.  Rather, we move into confusion.”  John Courtney Murray

Part of the problem in the debate between Aleta and myself is that we use the word “meaning” in at least three different senses, (1) linguistic intention, (2) ultimate purpose, and (3) culturally-adapted belief system.

In an effort to see if we can actually reach disagreement as opposed to confusion, I propose to dispense with the word “meaning” altogether and to use in its stead the following:

  1. Linguistic intention.  Instead of “this word has the following meaning” I will use “this word has the following definition.”
  1. Ultimate purpose.  Instead of “the theist believes there is an ultimate meaning in the universe and the atheist denies that there is,” I will say “the theist believes there is Ultimate Purpose/Significance in the universe and the atheist denies that there is.”
  1. Culturally adapted belief system.  Aleta says that human belief and meaning systems are human inventions that are inculcated into members of a culture.  Fair enough.  I will use the phrase “Culturally Adopted Belief System” to refer to this type of “meaning.”

Barry’s Argument

The materialist believes there is no Ultimate Purpose/Significance.  As Richard Dawkins says in the following famous quotation:

[In the universe there] is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

In my previous post I argued that the idea that our life is completely meaningless, that the universe is indifferent to our existence, that literally nothing we say, think or do has any ultimate significance, is unbearable.  No one is able to stare into the abyss without flinching.  I noted that even those that insist there is no Ultimate Purpose/Significance feel compelled to seek a kind of meaning as a substitute for Ultimate Purpose/Significance.  Dawkins again:

The truly adult view, by contrast, is that our life is as meaningful, as full and as wonderful as we choose to make it.

In the first quote Dawkins stares into the abyss, and in the second he flinches away. Why?  Because an intense longing for Ultimate Purpose/Significance is at the bottom of every human heart.  Everyone, from fundamentalist Bible thumpers to militant atheists, searches for a greater context in which to situate their lives.  For theists the explanation for this longing is easy:

You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.

Confessions, Augustine of Hippo

The honest materialist does not deny the longing.  At that same time he cannot admit that when we long for Ultimate Purpose/Significance we are longing for something that actually exists.  So how does the materialist explain a near universal longing for something that does not exist?  He explains it like he explains a lot of things (consciousness, the overwhelming appearance of design in nature, libertarian free will) — the near universal human impulse to place our lives within the context of some Ultimate Purpose/Significance is an illusion foisted on us by our genes, which in turn resulted from some evolutionary adaptation.

Aleta’s Argument

Aleta disagrees that the universe’s indifference is unbearable and that no one is able to stare into the abyss without flinching.  He does not agree that even those who insist there is no Ultimate Purpose/Significance feel compelled to seek Ultimate Purpose/Significance.  He writes:

I do believe that humans do engage, and have engaged in “make believe” about some things that we really don’t know much, if anything about: I think most metaphysical religious beliefs fall into this category.  But we have all sorts of other beliefs about how to treat our fellow man (or at least those that we include in our understanding of our community/society), about how to contribute to the well being of our society, how to spend our time in what various human activities are possible, and so on.  Many of these beliefs are cultural: the fact that many people are brought up in them as children and that most of society supports them gives those beliefs a sense of being bigger than the individual.  Human belief and meaning systems are human inventions.  They are based on a mixture of empirical knowledge (confirmed beliefs) and agreements within the culture to see the world a certain way (affirmed beliefs). Calling then “make believe” devalues both them and the human beings for whom they are important.

Barry’s Response

Just like Dawkins Aleta wants to have it both ways.  Consider again Dawkins’ first comment, which I will call the “Materialist Prime Directive.”

[In the universe there] is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Now consider again Dawkins’ second statement:

The truly adult view, by contrast, is that our life is as meaningful, as full and as wonderful as we choose to make it.

Dawkin’s second statement is radically irreconcilable with the Materialist Prime Directive, because if the Materialist Prime Directive is true, the words “meaningful,” “full,” and “wonderful” in the second statement are empty. Similarly, Aleta affirms the Materialist Prime Directive.*  Then he says that “we have all sorts of other beliefs about how to treat our fellow man . . .”  But if the Materialist Prime Directive is true, those beliefs about how to treat our fellow man are empty, mere evolutionary adaptations foisted upon us by our genes.  Aleta chides me for calling them “make believe,” but they are indeed make believe in a very real sense of that phrase.  If the Materialist Prime Directive is true, those beliefs are empty and arbitrary impulses that evolution “makes” us “believe.”

I argue that the human longing for “meaning” (i.e., Ultimate Purpose/Significance) is a very real phenomenon, and that longing is directed at something real.  Aleta agrees there is a longing, but he dismisses that longing as a mere cultural adaptation.  Here’s the problem with that.  Once one realizes that “meaning” in Aleta’s sense of the word is empty and arbitrary, a mere evolutionary adaptation foisted upon us by our genes, the game is up.  Because it is a truism that a meaning (cultural adaptation) that is meaningless (arbitrary/random) can have no meaning (ultimate significance).

___________

*Though he quibbles with whether he is actually a materialist.  I think he prefers to consider himself an agnostic who accepts materialism provisionally.  He can explain what he believes if I a wrong.

 

 

Comments
Thank God Aleta thinks the debate over ID is meaningful!Mung
November 10, 2014
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To roding at 51: very good point. The Christian emphasis on a ultimate meaning or purpose derived from and in respect to God is the cultural foundation for the longing that Barry believes is universal. But people raised in other cultures have different perspectives. In Buddhism, one of the goals is to free oneself from being attached to theories about the universe so that one can truly experience what is rather then what ones thinks about what is. Rational knowledge has its place and power, but when it comes to addressing one's spiritual needs, Eastern religions see excessive rationalizations as an impediment.Aleta
November 10, 2014
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Aleta: ". I certainly reject the notion that Barry has some superior access to knowledge about the state of all men’s hearts, and I doubt if there is any empirical evidence to support his claim." I absolutely agree. My experience in UD has been that if you disagree with what Barry (or Mr. Mullings, or Denyse) claim are ultimate truths you are not worth being listened to. And then you are banned.centrestream
November 10, 2014
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Most of the perspectives shared here from those advocating a meaning or purpose to life seem to have a Christian foundation. But what about other religious and/or spiritual perspectives. I'm not a Buddhist myself, but wouldn't some Buddhists say that the very idea of needing a special purpose is just a manifestation of ego and an "I" centered view of the world? Is then this idea of needing meaning/purpose (whatever you want to call it, I don't want to get into semantics!), a very Western perspective (and on a philosophy that looks to an external agent for purpose). Thoughts?roding
November 10, 2014
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There are a few points mentioned today that I'd like to comment on. I think I'll take them one point at a time. Barry had written the following:
An intense longing for Ultimate Purpose/Significance is at the bottom of every human heart. Everyone, from fundamentalist Bible thumpers to militant atheists, searches for a greater context in which to situate their lives. The honest materialist does not deny the longing.
Both I, MarkF, and others have pointed out that we have no such longing. As I have explained, I agree that human beings, as part of their nature, derive significant meaning from being part of some larger group, or identifying with some abstract ideal: people find a "greater context in which to situate their lives" in their family, in their local community, in their occupation and profession, in the national allegiance, in their favorite sports team, the organizations they join, and so on. We are social animals, and this need - this longing, is common to virtually all human beings. But that is different than longing for an ultimate meaning or purpose. My guess is that many people throughout the world have no such longing, and certainly not an intense longing at the bottom of their heart. MarkF in post 34 points out that
Barry is claiming we all have some sort of deep yearning for an ultimate purpose and says that anyone who denies this is dishonest. This is a statement about human psychology to be answered by observing a large sample of humans and seeing if they do in fact have this yearning.... I note that I myself have no such yearning and several others on this OP have said the same. On what basis is Barry going to prove us wrong?
and then MarkF points out some flaws in Barry's statement:
He cannot answer it by: * Appealing purely to logic – this is an empirical matter * Noting his own yearning and assuming everyone else is the same * Repeating the odd quote from famous writers [I assume referring to the Dawkins quotes] * Accusing anyone who disagrees of being dishonest
I strongly support MarkF's point here. Somehow Barry claims to know something about all men's intense longing for an ultimate purpose, and he claims that I am dishonest if I don't acknowledge that longing in myself. How can Barry know this? Furthermore, how can Barry feel so sure of his knowledge that he think's I'm being dishonest if I don't acknowledge the feelings he thinks I ought to have. I certainly reject the notion that Barry has some superior access to knowledge about the state of all men's hearts, and I doubt if there is any empirical evidence to support his claim. I have an adult lifetime of thinking and studying these issues, and am quite sure of my beliefs. It really is not conducive to constructive dialog to tell me that I am being dishonest when I disavow a intense longing for an ultimate purpose. It's not right to project one own's beliefs onto other people like that, rather then being willing to accept the differences between people and respect other people's integrity as one would want their integrity respected. I don't doubt that Barry has an intense longing for an ultimate purpose, and that it comes from positive beliefs rather than a fear of an abyss that he thinks might be there without that purpose, but not everyone is the same, and I would hope my beliefs would be taken at face value rather than accusing me of self-deception and dishonesty.Aleta
November 10, 2014
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lol. another great OP Barry. Got the cockroaches scurrying about looking for someplace dark to hide. A meaningful life is a purposeful life. In universe without purpose that's almost meaningful. But not quite.Mung
November 10, 2014
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At first glance I thought this thread was about football brothers!Mung
November 10, 2014
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MF
Uh? I am sorry but this is complete gobbleydook to me. Could you rephrase your case in plain English?
Ultimate from the Oxford Dictionary "Final or fundamental fact or principle" Ultimately life has no meaning. Fundamental fact (ultimately), life has no meaning. Factually life has no meaning. KS
But it’s not incoherent to say “life has no ultimate meaning or significance but it still has meaning and significance to me.”
What he is saying is "But it is not incoherent to say that life has no factual meaning or factual significance but in spite of the facts it still has meaning and significance to me" Lets replace meaning with Supreme Being. "But it is not incoherent to say that life has ultimately (factually) no Supreme Being but there still is a Supreme Being for me" So I ask is either one of the above coherent and rational.How would KS respond to someone espousing the latter? Vividvividbleau
November 10, 2014
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Centrestream @2
I have no problem with the fact that there is no ultimate purpose and meaning to life. I much prefer being responsible for bringing purpose and meaning to my own life.
Keith s
Meaning is inherently subjective. An experience can be meaningful to one person while another sees it as utterly banal. There is no contradiction there.
Centrestream, your statement echoes aspects of Sartre. That a human, on atheism, could being responsible for "bringing" purpose would have to be part of his/her essence, something that they a priori "bring" to their existence. I don't have the time or inclination to argue existentialism with you (or Sartre) suffice to say that on atheism I find it bankrupt. Also, there is a touch of will to power which WJM has just dispensed with. . . which leads me to Keith s. Even if we allow your definition of meaningful to be included in the mix, it is does not help your argument. One of your synonyms was "important", but I think it was StephenB who pointed out that it would be better for you to have included "importance" to make your statement non-contradictory. Meaning, in that sense, is subjective, that is, you assign "importance" to varying degrees to life/events. (Come to think of it, this is hardly any different from saying that subjectively held meanings are subjectively held. Should the charge be switched from "being contradictory," to "being tautological"? but I digress . . .) And so what? BA was not suggesting that nobody can attach more or less "importance" to events in their lives, as if the events in one's life makes up the totality of it. And this is where we must depart paths: In some important sense (foreign to me, so help me out) you do not believe (define, think of, etc . . .) your life as anything beyond the events that happen within it and your subjective feelings about them. That is why you so passionately stick with statements such as the one above. It may also be why, when queried a la the shorter catechism (Westminster): What is the chief end of man? Your answer can only be "to do whatever each considers meaningful." (please, correct me if I am wrong) which is a far cry from, "to enjoy and glorify God forever." I will not (overly) moralize on which is better practical philosophy, but I do recommend three essays by C.S Lewis whose topic at first seems to be education, but is in fact a brilliant if brief introduction and discourse on what Lewis termed the Tao, and what we know as natural law, "The Abolition of Man." I do not suggest these essays as some sort of "winning" argument. I suggest them so that you may read them.Tim
November 10, 2014
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VB
The word ultimate in the context of this OP is to say that factually meaning has no existence.
Uh? I am sorry but this is complete gobbleydook to me. Could you rephrase your case in plain English?markf
November 10, 2014
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No one can act as if the meaning to/in life is subjective in nature outside of sociopaths. If one truly considered the meaning to/in life subjective, they would not have any problem with how others found meaning in/to life as long behavior stemming from such views didn't involve them. IOW, as long as Nazi views on the meaning to/in life didn't directly affect them, what do they care if a few million Jews are exterminated? This is just competing subjective views playing themselves out on the evolutionary battlefield. Does the subjectivist also care if one species of finch wins the evolutionary battle over another? Whomever wins, it's just the survival of the fittest, correct?William J Murray
November 10, 2014
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RE 42 To be consistent "life has no factual Supreme Being but a Supreme Being is factual" Vividvividbleau
November 10, 2014
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MF VB
Let me ask you is it coherent and rational to say ” it is factual that God does not exist but God still exists”?
MF
It is not coherent. But I don’t see what this has got to do with anything KeithS wrote.
The word ultimate in the context of this OP is to say that factually meaning has no existence. One then is saying that even though factually there is no meaning there is meaning. I was trying to show that by replacing the word life with God to see how that would fly with Keith. Perhaps this would be a better way of asking the question. Is it coherent and rational to say "life has no factual Supreme Being but God is factual "? I have not added "to me" because I think that those two words are irrelevant and just confuses things but you can add it if you want. Vividvividbleau
November 10, 2014
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PS: One of the subtleties of the substitution tactic is that it reflects the implicit premise, might and manipulation make 'right'/ 'truth'/ 'meaning'/ 'purpose' . . . etc. A very dangerous road to go down. PPS: I should note Provine in that telling U of T Darwin Day address 1998, just so we don't lose sight of the fact that significant evo mat advocates have publicly admitted the point BA has made and some troubling linked points:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .
The no freedom of responsible action directly undermines choice, ability to reason (which requires power to freely think and choose . . . cf my point that computation is not rational contemplation), thus to warrant knowledge, thus knowledge, understanding, and of course meaning evaporates. PPPS: The tendency of materialists to undermine or even denigrate and dismiss philosophical matters including logic, epistemology, ethics and worldviews analysis aka metaphysics, should not be overlooked.kairosfocus
November 10, 2014
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CY, busy playing fireman, but here on may give relevant backdrop, read on down to the infographic on Schaeffer's line of despair and context. I would highlight that evolutionary materialism is ancient and from Plato on has been corrosive of reason, knowledge, meaning and ethics. Cf The Laws, Bk X. KFkairosfocus
November 10, 2014
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#38 VB
Let me ask you is it coherent and rational to say ” it is factual that God does not exist but God still exists”?
It is not coherent. But I don't see what this has got to do with anything KeithS wrote.markf
November 10, 2014
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Keiths did not say life does not exist. He said it has no ultimate meaning – quite different things. I did not say that Keith said life does not exist. I am talking about profound facts and using something else as an example. Let me ask you is it coherent and rational to say " it is factual that God does not exist but God still exists"? Vivid
vividbleau
November 9, 2014
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Keith s: "The Designer, if he/she/it exists, is just one more beholder, and yes, meaning is in the eye of the beholder." See, that's what you get wrong every time. Assuming the designer is God, the Creator of the universe, He is not "just one more beholder." He is the first cause, and He caused before there was anything to behold. As such, the meaning He ascribes is above all others. In an earlier post I clarified the Christian view of meaning as an ethic based in the character of God. God did not design Himself. If He exists at all, He is eternal, unchanging. His character has always been. When we find meaning through His character, we are not beholding something that God once beheld; rather, He dispenses His eternal character through us, if that makes any sense (read #23). God does not behold his own character. There are no mirrors reflecting God to Himself. He already knows himself. Otherwise He would not be God. It would be very different, I suppose if God purposed us to be idolators, ascribing ultimate meaning upon inanimate temporal objects, rather than deriving meaning through Him alone. Then we could, I suppose, ascribe our own meaning to those objects and perhaps find some fulfillment through them. But that is apparently not the case. We are not free to create God in our own or anybody else's image. Logic does not permit this, let alone doctrine. He did not ascribe those parameters. And indeed history has shown the consequences of doing so. In purveying meaning to us through his character, the creator dispenses with idolatry altogether, rightfully condemning it, and as such gives true ultimate meaning that is not based in temporal things, but in His eternal perfect unchanging, loving character. He ascribes intent because He created with intent. The consequence or parameter of not accepting His intent, is to be relegated to the "whims" of His creation as all that exists; to assume no ultimate purpose, while still yearning for it. To as Barry describes, "stare into the abyss." The designer of the can opener is similar, though not exactly like the Creator, since he was also designed. But he is able to ascribe intent on the object of his creation. He purposes it as a can opener and not an ink pen. Assuming the can opener is conscious and assumes itself in the role of ink pen. The intent of the designer is not thus usurped by such a choice. Rather, the designer can ascribe upon his creation consequences for assuming a purpose other than his intent. As part of the design, the can opener cannot by choice, escape the consequences (parameters) ascribed upon him by design. This is ultimately what the Isaiah passage means to convey in its full context. While a designed entity may ascribe upon itself meaning outside the purveyance of its designer, a designer can ascribe consequences (parameters) that would make an assumption of his original purpose (meaning) more beneficial than otherwise. This is why the original meaning and intent transcends any intent subsequently ascribed by a conscious subject. Of course you don't believe that such a designer exists. You are therefore forced by your chosen belief to reject ultimate purpose, but your position begs the question, since you still adhere to a need for meaning and purpise in your life, no matter how trivially you insist that it doesn't have to be "ultimate" purpose. If you were to be consistent with the view that there is ultimately no purpose in life, you would cast off all pretensions that your life is meaningful. But to do that, you would by action be proving the opposite. Your conscious act of casting off all meaning and purpose, would in fact be a purposeful reaction to your stated belief in non-purpose, ultimately proving the self-defeating nature of your stated belief.CannuckianYankee
November 9, 2014
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KeithS
Suppose God exists and created us. I can still regard my life as meaningful, even if the meaning I find in it is different from the meaning God attributes to it.
Bad logic. God doesn't "attribute" meaning to his creatures, he confers it. Their reason for being is, by definition, His decision, not theirs.
There is no contradiction here, because meaning is subjective.
The contradiction is nothing short of violent. If meaning is subjective to the creature, then the meaning conferred on the creature by the Creator has been obliterated.
God, if he exists, is one more subject.
Bad logic. God is objective to us. He is subjective to Himself just as we are subjective to ourselves.StephenB
November 9, 2014
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#33 VB
How could something not exist but exist for me?
Keiths did not say life does not exist. He said it has no ultimate meaning - quite different things.markf
November 9, 2014
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Barry wishes to restrict meaning to:   1. Linguistic intention.2. Ultimate purpose.3. Culturally adapted belief system.   Rather than get into a debate about the meaning of meaning let’s work with those.  Barry is claiming we all have some sort of deep yearning for an ultimate purpose and says that anyone who denies this is dishonest. This is a statement about human psychology to be answered by observing a large sample of humans and seeing if they do in fact have this yearning. He cannot answer it by: * Appealing purely to logic – this is an empirical matter * Noting his own yearning and assuming everyone else is the same * Repeating the odd quote from famous writers * Accusing anyone who disagrees of being dishonest Unfortunately Barry does not provide a reference to any such sample. I note that I myself have no such yearning and several others on this OP have said the same. On what basis is Barry going to prove us wrong?markf
November 9, 2014
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But it’s not incoherent to say “life has no ultimate meaning or significance but it still has meaning and significance to me.”
So Keith is it incoherent or irrational to say "God has no ultimate existence or significance but God still has existence and significance to me" How could something not exist but exist for me? I would ask what you would say to such a person but we already know. Vividvividbleau
November 9, 2014
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KeithS, let me fine tune my question a little bit more. To Barry, you wrote,
In your OP, you are attempting to stack the deck in your favor by limiting “meaning” to the following three definitions:
So, the subject on the table was the definition of the word "meaning," but then you wrote,
"Meaningful things aren’t limited to those three categories. Here’s the second definition that Google returns for “meaningful”:
But "meaningful" is not a synonym for "meaning." Those words cannot be used interchangeably. This, by the way, is a Darwinist Debate Tactic--changing the subject. If you really believed that "meaning" was subjective, you would not feel the need to smuggle in the word "meaningful" as a substitute in an attempt to mislead the poor reader. Did you think no one would notice?StephenB
November 9, 2014
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StephenB, You crack me up. Read what I wrote:
Meaningful things aren’t limited to those three categories. Here’s the second definition that Google returns for “meaningful”: having a serious, important, or useful quality or purpose. “making our lives rich and meaningful” synonyms: sincere, deep, serious, in earnest, significant, important “a meaningful relationship” [Emphasis added]
LMGTFYkeith s
November 9, 2014
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KeithS, at this point you are just filling up cyberspace with empty words. Nothing you have said will save your argument. Also, I want to know where you found a definition of "meaning" that included synonyms like, "rich," "sincere," "in earnest" and a "meaningful relationship." Please provide the website.StephenB
November 9, 2014
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CannuckianYankee:
You’re still claiming that meaning and purpose are in the eyes of the beholder only, which is to be expected from a person who has so obviously cast off all rational thought.
:-)
But for the sake of the onlookers, It is rather the purveyor of truth, the designer, if you will that dispenses meaning, not the receiver. Intent is greater than perception. Do you doubt this?
The Designer, if he/she/it exists, is just one more beholder, and yes, meaning is in the eye of the beholder.
“You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, “You did not make me”? Can the pot say to the potter, “You know nothing”?” Isaiah 29:16 NIV
Suppose God exists and created us. I can still regard my life as meaningful, even if the meaning I find in it is different from the meaning God attributes to it. There is no contradiction here, because meaning is subjective. God, if he exists, is one more subject.keith s
November 9, 2014
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keith s If you wouldn't say that your "life, were meant for nothing.” Would you say that your life IS meant for something? If "Life is not meant" is false Then "Life is meant" must be truec hand
November 9, 2014
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StephenB:
Once again, KeithS is trying to pull a fast one. The definition of “meaningful,” which is subjective, cannot be substituted for the word “meaning,” which has an objective component. You will not find synonyms like sincere, rich, or in earnest attached to the word “meaning.” KeithS must have understood this, so he searched for a subjectivized form of meaning (meaningful) and tried to pass it off as part of the definition of “meaning.”
Come on, StephenB. To say thatlife has meaning and significance to me is to say that it's meaningful to me. You are a native English speaker, correct?keith s
November 9, 2014
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Keith s: "It’s still subjective. The designer of the can opener sees it as being meant to open cans, but Clarence the Conscious Can Opener sees the meaning of can opener life as something else entirely. Two subjects, two meanings." You're still claiming that meaning and purpose are in the eyes of the beholder only, which is to be expected from a person who has so obviously cast off all rational thought. But for the sake of the onlookers, It is rather the purveyor of truth, the designer, if you will that dispenses meaning, not the receiver. Intent is greater than perception. Do you doubt this? "You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, "You did not make me"? Can the pot say to the potter, "You know nothing"?" Isaiah 29:16 NIV Scripture is often insightful on questions of meaning. The author of this ancient text understood the difference between a purveyor, a designer and the one designed. Purpose derives from the purpose-giver, not the other way around. You turn things upside down as if the can were to be like the can maker.CannuckianYankee
November 9, 2014
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keiths:
But it’s not incoherent to say “life has no ultimate meaning or significance but it still has meaning and significance to me.”
StephenB:
Yes it is. If your were meant for nothing then it is a contradiction to say that you are going to be meant for something.
I didn't say that I, or my life, "were meant for nothing". Why are you making things up? My words are right in front of you.
To say life is meant for nothing conflicts with the statement, life means something to me.
Again, you're making things up. Knock it off. keiths:
Meaning is inherently subjective.
StephenB:
You perception of meaning is subjective but the fact of meaningfulness and purposefulness is objective.
No. Meaning itself is subjective, but the fact that meaning exists is objective. This should be obvious. That the word "hell" has meaning is an objective fact, but the meaning is different for an American versus a German. It's subjective. The same thing holds true when talking about the meaning or significance of life. keiths:
An experience can be meaningful to one person while another sees it as utterly banal. There is no contradiction there.
StephenB:
It can seem meaningful to one person and seem banal to another person, but it cannot be both meaningful and meaningless. To be is not to seem.
"Meaningful" and "banal" are relative to the person making the judgment. Again, this should be obvious.
Indeed, the meaning you try to create can easily be in conflict with what you were meant to be if, in fact, you were created for a purpose. So it is with any created thing.
Exactly! Meaning is subjective.
A can opener was meant to open cans. If it were conscious and had free will, it might decide that it would be more subjectively meaningful to be a ball point pen, In keeping with that point, it might insist that it had created its own meaning, but the objective fact that it was meant to be a can opener and nothing else is inescapable.
It's still subjective. The designer of the can opener sees it as being meant to open cans, but Clarence the Conscious Can Opener sees the meaning of can opener life as something else entirely. Two subjects, two meanings.keith s
November 9, 2014
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