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Methodological naturalism: If that’s the way forward, … let’s go sideways

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Having connected the dots of the vast conspiracy run by the Discovery Institute so as to include non-materialist neuroscience, Steven Novella goes on to cheerlead, for methodological naturalism – about which I will say only this:

Methodological naturalism is usually described as meaning that science can consider only natural causes. But by itself that doesn’t mean anything because we don’t know everything that is in nature. For example, if – as Rupert Sheldrake thinks – some animals can demonstrate telepathy, then telepathy is a natural cause. And so?

And so Richard Dawkins goes to a great deal of trouble to attempt to discredit Sheldrake because the hidden assumption is that nature mustn’t include telepathy.

In practice, methodological naturalism frequently becomes a method of defending bad – and often ridiculously bad.- ideas in order to save naturalism. Think of the persistent efforts to “prove” that humans don’t “really” behave altruistically. In fact, we sometimes do. Here’s a recent story, for example, about a Texas woman named Marilyn Mock who went to an auction of foreclosed homes, ran into Tracey Orr – an unemployed woman she had never met – who had come to endure the sale of her home, and …

Orr couldn’t hold it in. The tears flowed. She pointed to the auction brochure at a home that didn’t have a picture. “That’s my house,” she said.

Within moments, the four-bedroom, two-bath home in Pottsboro, Texas, went up for sale. People up front began casting their bids. The home that Orr purchased in September 2004 was slipping away.

She stood and moved toward the crowd. Behind her, Mock got into the action.

“She didn’t know I was doing it,” Mock says. “I just kept asking her if [her home] was worth it, and she just kept crying. She probably thought I was crazy, ‘Why does this woman keep asking me that?’ “

Mock says she bought the home for about $30,000. That’s when Mock did what most bidders at a foreclosure auction never do.

“She said, ‘I did this for you. I’m doing this for you,’ ” Orr says. “When it was all done, I was just in shock.”

But it was true. Mock bought the house for her and said she would accept as repayment only what Orr can afford. Why?

“If it was you, you’d want somebody to stop and help you.”

Now, a “methodological naturalist” would

(1) try to find a chimpanzee who does something similar and make up a story that explains how that behaviour was naturally selected for in primates

or (since that might take a while)

(2) assign a selfish motive for Mock that is consistent with survival of the fittest.

One might at first be tempted to conclude that methodological naturalism is methodological idiocy. But no, let’s look a bit more carefully. Notice what is not a permitted assumption: We can’t assume that some people just think they should help others – even at considerable cost. In other words, the plain evidence of human behavior cannot be accepted at face value.

Now, there is nothing especially scientific about that belief. “Scientific” means “dealing with the evidence from nature,” which includes a fair sprinkling of unselfish or not-very-selfish humans (as well as of the other type). Indeed, superior human intelligence probably explains the tendency to imagine another’s feelings (= “If it was you, you’d want somebody to stop and help you”). So we can account scientifically for why humans can behave as Mock did.

The problem is that such an account, while useful, fails to support a key false belief underlying methodological naturalism: That humans are really the 98% chimpanzee and cannot in principle have motives absent in chimpanzees. Apart from that false belief, no one would bother trying to find an exotic explanation for Mock’s behaviour.

The principle role that methodological naturalism plays right now is to enable false beliefs to pose as science and to prevent them being discredited by evidence.

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Comments
-----"Design detection and finding the designer are different specialties." Could we not say that they are different functions within the same discipline? Doesn't forensic science, for example, use FSCI-like information to determine whether or not an act of violence was premeditated or motive driven (design) rather than sponteneous (non-design)? On the other hand, does it not also use a wide variety of other techniques to identify the perpetrator.StephenB
November 23, 2008
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Similarly, with regard to forensic science, I wrote, “design detection, among other things, distinguishes intent or purpose from accidents” You know it's usually those associated with the fire marshal that determine whether the fire was an arson. It is then police detectives that connect the arson to its designer. Or, if you will, it's the medical examiner who determines if the dead body was the result of foul play. Quincy, aside, it's someone with a different expertise using different techniques who track down the actual killer. Design detection and finding the designer are different specialties.tribune7
November 23, 2008
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colin evans: You did not read my post carefully enough. I did not say that archeologists do not study the people behind the artifacts. You will note that I wrote the following: But design detection in archeology only tells us, for example, that a certain artifact was designed, it cannot identify the person who did it, unless, "OF COURSE IT DRAWS FROM OTHER KINDS OF INFORMATION THAT ARE NOT RELATED TO INTELLIGENT DESIGN.” So, the point is that, insofar as it does design detection, archeology does not identify the person because functionally specified complex information doesn’t probe that deeply. Archeology uses other kind of information to discover identities. Similarly, with regard to forensic science, I wrote, “design detection, among other things, distinguishes intent or purpose from accidents” So, I am well aware of the fact that forensic science uses other methods at the crime scene, but those techniques are not analogous to the science of intelligent design, meaning they do not search for FSCI. That is why didn’t include them. Again, I would ask you to please read for context. -----You wrote: “But you didn’t still answer the question as to if ID doesn’t consider the identify of the designer important, shouldn’t it at least be part of another discipline? Why is it not an important question. To me it should be a burning issue that everybody here should be discussing all the time? Especially why the designer seems to have deliberately left so few clues as to its identify and whereabouts.” There are several reasons: First, ID does consider the identity of the designer important, but it does not have the ability to find out who it is. The theory simply isn’t well-developed enough to probe that deeply into origin of life issues. Complex Specified Information or Irreducibly complex organisms tell us only that they were designed. Apparently another genius will have to come along and add to the ID inventory of tools. Second, when ID scientists start talking about the designer, critics assume they are talking about God, slander then, and brand them as religious fundamentalists. Have you not heard about the trial in Dover Pennsylvania where Judge John Jones ruled against reason and declared that intelligent design is nothing more than Biblical creationism?. As a result, any reference to the designer’s identity causes suspicion about the scientist’s motive for bringing up the subject. It's hard to do good science when your enemies mistakely, or even maliciously deny that you are doing science and expell you from the scientific community. Third, there is a question of honesty. ID makes modest claims, but it can back them up easily. Darwinists, on the other hand, make extravagant claims and cannot even come close to defending them. True science knows its limitations. Finally, many come here and ask the same question over and over again. “Well, if a designer fashioned the DNA molecule, then who designed the designer?” Sometimes, it is an attempt to prompt a religious discussion and confirm the fact that ID advocates are Christian proselytizers who care little about the science. Other times, it is just a display of gross ignorance. The Christian God has, after all, been described as the causeless cause and therefore is self existent and in no need of a designer.StephenB
November 23, 2008
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Mapou and colin_evans101: I think there is a common misunderstanding in your posts. ID does not "restrict its search" in any way, nor does it "restrict its sphere of study to the effects of the Intelligent Agency". And least of all it does it for political or opportunistic reasons. The reason is much simpler. ID is a scientific theory, and the theory, at present, can detect design, but has not enough facts, or enough inference power, to do more with sufficient reliability. In other words, ID is not a philosophy, is not a religion, and is not a global scientific theory (a theory of all reality). It is a partial scientific theory, on a specific aspect of reality (design in biological information). It is a very important aspect, one that can condition the scenario of research in many other aspects, but it still is an aspect. Does ID state that the identity and nature and modalities of action of the designer are not important? Absolutely not. Does ID state that those aspects are beyond the scope of science? No, but it cannot argue the contrary, at present. I have argued many times, on this blog, that all of these aspects, and especially the third, the modalities of implementation of design, should be scientifically investigated. The problem is that at present we don't have much to do that scientifically (we can obviously do that philosophically, and we do that daily on this blog). In other words, we need more facts and probably more reflection. But science will never try to investigate those aspects, if the ID scenario is not accepted at least as possible. That's why we are so aware of the importance of supporting ID. Does ID give us instrument to investigate the nature and modalities of the designer. It certainly does. For example, just analyzing the properties of a design, you can usually infer some probable aspects of the designer, or at least some specific purposes or modalities of implementation. That's possible, but nor always realizable. Personally, I believe that, as we are fortunate enough to have a lot of design available, we could investigate it for information about the designer. But that requires a lot of scientific work, and you know who owns scientific resources at present. So, again, we need more facts, we need more analyzing and researching power, and we need that the ID scenario be recognized as a legit scientific scenario for research. In the meantime, ID remains a very strong partial theory, absolutely effective with the facts we already have. Indeed, each day biological research adds facts in favor of ID to our knowledge. So, I don't understand why people are accusing ID for the simple fact that it does what it can do, and does not what it, at least at present, cannot do. That is only epistemological correctness: if darwinists did the same, we would not have all the problems we have.gpuccio
November 22, 2008
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Re: Stephen B (post #68). Your post doesn't surprise me - I already know that ID tries to restrict its sphere of study to the effects of the Intelligent Agency. I guess that is your prerogative. I'm just questioning as to why ID is so narrowly and very specifically delineated in this way, particularly when scientific discipline and "academic freedom" would suggest that any and all questions should be permitted. Again, ID supporters want academic freedom so all kinds of questioning can occur with evolution, but apparently not with ID! But I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning and out of curiosity did a tiny bit of research. I found this on the U.S. National Park's web site (http://www.nps.gov/archeology/AFORI/whdo_ident1.htm) "Gradually, archeologists have shifted objectives, realizing that understanding the people behind the artifacts is more compelling than the artifacts themselves. Today's archeology has turned from simply filling museum cabinets to discovering how people in the past actually lived." Similarly, within forensic science, there is a practice called criminal profiling which uses information from the crime scene to figure out the m.o. of the perpetrator. But you didn't still answer the question as to if ID doesn't consider the identify of the designer important, shouldn't it at least be part of another discipline? Why is it not an important question. To me it should be a burning issue that everybody here should be discussing all the time? Especially why the designer seems to have deliberately left so few clues as to its identify and whereabouts. And why do so many Christians draw the conclusion that the Designer is their own God and on what basis? (other than faith, or is that all they are basing this on?)colin_evans101
November 22, 2008
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Mapou, As I've argued in the previous page "How does the actor act?" (linked in #52) I believe this to be the role of ID-compatible hypotheses. Core ID theory is currently very limited in scope. Exactly how do tools like CSI and IC allow anyone to identify Designer(s)? Now I believe it could be argued that we need not maintain this distinction indefinitely, although personally I'd rather keep it so that communication on this subject is easier. But if any one hypothesis acquires enough evidence that it advances to a theory I think it might be fine to accord it the role of "part of core ID, yet not focused on design detection". Now that's my personal opinion on the matter. I don't know how the entire ID movement feels in this matter, nor do I think anyone has bothered finding out, but I believe Bill at least maintains these distinctions as well (perhaps not using the same terminology as myself). What does everyone else think? Hmm...I wonder if Wordpress has a polling function.Patrick
November 22, 2008
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@StephenB:
ID detects the EFFECTS of intelligent agency.
I think that ID needlessly and irresponsibly restricts itself to just design detection. As you pointed out, archaelogy does not restrict its search to finding artifacts but, very often, tries to identify the author(s) via other means, whether it be a known historical figure or a previously documented human culture. It makes sense that an advanced intelligent designer that has enough smarts to design intelligent lifeforms could have left some unmistakable clue or message for future generations. This should be a prediction of ID, in my opinion. Or, at the very least, one of its main goals. There is no scientific reason that ID cannot use the same methods as archaelogy other than political expediency. This is not a particularly brave stance, at least from my perspective. Courage and persistence are the main tools in the honest researcher's bag of tricks. The ID camp must not follow in the footsteps of the Darwinians who have chosen a priori to eliminate any possibility of design from their research. Cowardice is not an admirable trait.Mapou
November 22, 2008
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-----colin evans101: "I think that odd, because there are at least a couple of analogous disciplines where the the ‘who’ question is very pertinent. For example, in archeology, if an artifact is found on a dig, it is VERY important to ask questions about who made it, and how, and why (and of course when). These questions are an essential part of the exploration process and guide and shape any conclusions that might be made. And another related discipline is of course forensic science." It is good that you point to the analogy between archeology, forensic science, and intelligent design, since each of these discilplines does indeed detect the effects of an intelligent agency. But design detection in archeology only tells us, for example, that a certain artifact was designed, it cannot identify the person who did it, unless, of course it draws from other kinds of information that are not related to design detection. To discern functionally specified complex information is to detect the presence of an intelligent agent, not the identity of the agent. Through design detection, the archeologist can differentiate between an ancient hunter's spear and other kinds of formations that resulted from natural causes. That doesn't mean that the analyst, using design detection alone, can also detect the identity of the hunter who designed it, or even know for sure that was a hunter and not a sportsman. Similarly, in forensic science, design detection, among other things, distinguishes intent or purpose from accidents. If one observes that a house has been ransacked, for example, design detection shows that someone purposefully caused the destruction, and that the event cannot be shrugged of as a natural event (tornado) or an accident. It doesn't necessarily zero in on the person who caused the destruction. Of course, one could identify the fingerprints of the one responsible for the act, but then the dynamic has changed significantly. That kind of design detection points to the one, if anyone, who created the fingerprints, not the one who committed the act. ID detects the EFFECTS of intelligent agency.StephenB
November 22, 2008
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Tom, I am well satisfied with your final summary (#60), which very well sums up both your and my position. As you admit that you are not "competent to evaluate these claims, not being a scientist or familiar with the literature", I have no reason to push you more. It's perfectly understandable that, not having evaluated personally the question, you go with the majority. Only I would suggest that you are a little bit more cautious in making statements about what you don't know, especially here, among people who spend a lot of time and energy debating what they deeply believe. That's a form of respect, too. I really can't see the progress which "conventional explanations of organic design and function, based on mechanisms of natural selection and gene expression" are doing (are you competent to evaluate them?), while I am very enthusiastic of the progress which biological knowledge is doing at the molecular level. I invite you to take again this discussion in a few years, when the new facts (and, I hope, some more serious attitude in interpreting them) will have vastly changed the relative power of the two competing theories, in favor of ID I mean, obviously. We are all working for that, here.gpuccio
November 22, 2008
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ribczynski --You and CJYman claim that science does not falsify the existence of the YEC God; Science does not falsify the existence of the YEC God. While the methodology showing an old earth is quite good science it is not definitive. If we assume we know everything there is to know about how the continents came to where they are, we are being foolish. Plate tectonic theory is less than a century old. And if radioactive decay is ever not found to be a constant, that would raise some serious questons about radiometric dating, you agree?tribune7
November 22, 2008
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ribczynski, Aside from the trouble with defining "supernatural" I have no problem with what you just stated. Science has falsified a claim made about how a "supernatural" agent may have operated in the past.CJYman
November 22, 2008
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CJYman asks:
What is your point anyway … that science can disprove the existence of God if it shows that he hasn’t acted in a certain way relative to our universe and natural laws?
The point is the same one that Tom Clark and I have been trying to make throughout this thread: Science is capable of answering certain questions about the supernatural. P.S. Note that your response concedes my point. Even if you insist that science has not falsified the existence of the YEC God, you have conceded
...that science has most likely falsified a claim as to how God may have acted in the past (the YEC model of God’s intervention and creation of earth and man 6000 yrs ago).
In other words, science has falsified a claim about the supernatural.ribczynski
November 22, 2008
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Tom, you said "conventional explanations of organic design and function, based on mechanisms of natural selection and gene expression, continue to make progress" You do not understand the debate. ID has no quibble with basic biological processes. It is macro evolution that is under debate and modern evolutionary biology has no answer for how the real design in organism has appeared. Don't provide generalities. Your answer indicates you do not have a concrete answer or else you would have pointed to something. And the fact that you tried to say that ID does not accept micro biology means you are also misinformed. We are going to get to the essence of the debate and as always happens before those who oppose ID will fail to make their case and then the discussions get more enlightening. Good luck in any attempt to support the case against ID. No one before you has done it.jerry
November 22, 2008
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Hi nullasalus: Yes, I recall with happy memory many of our fruitful discussions, and I celebrate the opportunity to dialogue with many on this thread as well. Of course, you already know my take on science and philosophy, and, in that sense, I would disagree with Tom in different ways than I would disagree with you and probably more intensely. Naturally, I find some of Tom’s comments about methodological naturalism acceptable, in the sense that he condemns it, but I have serious misgivings about his proposition that ID must find a “mechanism” in order to qualify as a scientific enterprise. ID’s whole idea is to suggest that not everything can be explained by mechanisms for the simple reason that we do not live in a wholly mechanistic universe. To me, that point is essential, and I see no reason to invest ten paragraphs to say it. I am not at all hung up on “testability” or “falsification” or any other of the useful tools that are just that, tools---not rules. For my part, if an archeologist suspects that “nature” did not construct an ancient hunter’s spear, he is doing good science when he hypothesizes that a hunter must have constructed it. If he sees writing on a cave wall, he does well if he draws the evident conclusion that an intelligent agent did the writing. I actually had a materialist Darwinist tell me once that this was, nevertheless, a “natural event” because it occurred “in nature.” This is madness. Who knows what “in nature” means? When William Dembski speaks of “natural causes,” we know exactly what he is talking about, namely mechanistic-like laws. For my part, when a caveman starts writing, it is not acting “in nature” because it is primarily his “mind,” not his brain that is at work, and therefore, from my perspective, his brain is in the natural world, while is mind [soul, spirit, will] is not “in” the natural world at all. Indeed, his mind exerts influence on both his brain and the material world of which is brain is a part. Every time you say no to any of the brain’s impulses, as when you use self-control, you provide evidence for the presence of a non-material mind. For a materialist, everything is in nature because there is nothing else to consider other than matter, and anything that happens can be explained materialistically and mechanically. In fact, creative acts are different than mechanical laws. While there is a testable process that can describe what happens when a piano hammer strikes a string, there is, at present, no similar way to test the process through which Mozart conceived the patterns that inform which strings the hammers will strike. Still, through the science of intelligent design, we know beyond a reasonable doubt that, while there are natural explanations for mechanics, there is another explanation for the music Translation--- the mind of Mozart is also a serious causative factor. So far, no one has yet posited the notion that infinite multiple universes can explain the composition, but I don’t doubt that there are some that would like to. So, I take this same approach to intelligent design. I know very well that nature has a mechanistic component because I depend on its regularity every day of my life. But I also know that there is more to it than that. So, I think that the scientist, when he approaches nature, should say the same thing that Newton, Einstein, and all the other greats said: “Speak to me.” “Reveal your secrets.” I promise that my methods will be appropriate for the investigation”. When this approach is used, with systematic methods, of course, we detect the presence of a designer’s intelligence just as surely as we detected the presence of Mozart’s intelligence. There is nothing unscientific about it. In fact, it is very unscientific to run away from it. If the analyst can use systematic methods to detect FSCI-like patters, and, if he can show that these patterns are, most likely, the work of an intelligent agent, then the analyst is doing science. If the scientist finds these same patterns in a DNA molecule, then he is still doing science, even if they indicate the presence of a superhuman designer. (Here, I must ask Tom a straightforward question: Do you know what FSCI patterns are, and how do you explain them?) It is also important to know why the great scientists that I alluded to thought so much about God. They were already fortified with the knowledge that, as I have indicated on another thread, through philosophical reasoning, existence itself indicates the presence of a self-existent creator. Also, they believed in Scripture and God’s Biblical revelation. So, their minds were whole and integrated; their theology informed their philosophy and their philosophy informed their science. That prompted them to believe that God must have left “clues” about his existence in nature. They had that confidence because they knew that even without Scripture’s testimony about the Christian God, they still had philosophy’s testimony about the self-existent creator. That was more than enough of an impetus to send them looking for clues using scientific methods based on observation----and they found them. That is because they were open to any kind of evidence and docile enough to follow wherever it might lead. They began to unravel the mysteries because they felt that they were “thinking God’s thoughts after him.” Based on what they knew, they hypothesized that God fashioned certain laws, or certain law-like activity in nature and they followed up on that thought. On the other hand, I am sure that they didn’t presume that there was nothing else to consider. They didn’t say to nature, “Reveal your secrets on my terms.” or“If you can’t be falsified, forget it” They fashioned their methodology to accommodate their hypothesis. In fact, it was this same approach that allowed others to put them out of business, so to speak, when they asked nature to reveal yet more secrets, for example when Einstein came along. Imagine someone rejecting the general theory of relativity on the grounds that it emerged out of a non-Newtonian-type methodology. If it had occurred to any of these men that nature also contained information, I have no doubt that they would have followed up on that as well, and I have no doubt that they would have been as open to nature’s revelation about functionally complex specified information as they were about its mechanistic laws. Only mindless ideology can subvert such a reasonable approach to science. What it all adds up to is this: Just as science is free to detect nature's laws, it should also be free to detect the presence of the creative act that gave rise to those laws.StephenB
November 22, 2008
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Gpuccio: It’s an interesting question whether there are reliable means of cognition that don’t involve intersubjective evidence. I haven’t seen that there are, since subjective knowledge of one’s experiences (e.g., knowing for sure that one has a vivid experience of god’s presence) is mute on whether those experiences represent reality veridically. This gets discussed in “Reality and its rivals” at Naturalism.Org. But I don’t pretend this is the final word on what is obviously a complex and fascinating epistemological question. Re CSI and other ID claims: We at least agree that they are amenable to scientific examination, which was my main point in this discussion about methodological naturalism and its difficulties. I’m not competent to evaluate these claims, not being a scientist or familiar with the literature, but should they eventually win mainstream scientific support and be incorporated into viable scientific theories, that’s fine by me. Like you, I’m committed to a method, one that itself might change as new wrinkles in epistemology are ironed out; I’m not committed to a particular ontology. But at the moment it seems to me that ID remains on the fringe as failed science because it hasn’t generated the sort of concrete, testable and (eventually) viable hypotheses that give scientific paradigms legitimacy. If it should do so, more power to it. Of course many here believe that there’s a conspiracy among mainstream scientists to keep ID from competing in the open scientific marketplace. That’s an empirical question as well, one that will continue to be debated with each side accusing the other of ideological bias. Meanwhile, conventional explanations of organic design and function, based on mechanisms of natural selection and gene expression, continue to make progress. It seems to me that the success of these explanations tends to push ID to the periphery since ID has no mechanisms on offer, but you and others here will disagree, saying that ID explanations are being discriminated against unfairly. I don’t expect this disagreement to be resolved. But at least we’re fortunate enough to live in an open society in which these questions can actually be debated.twclark
November 22, 2008
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ribczynski: "You and CJYman claim that science does not falsify the existence of the YEC God; it just shows that he doesn’t have the characteristics that the YECers attribute to him. Using that logic you could claim that Zeus, Yahweh, Odin, Ahura Mazda and Hanuman are all really the same God. They just don’t have the attributes that their followers think they do." Incorrect. There is a different between attributes and a description of how someone may have acted in the past. There can be a connection, but they are most definitely not one and the same. I will speak for myself when I say that science has most likely falsified a claim as to how God may have acted in the past (the YEC model of God's intervention and creation of earth and man 6000 yrs ago). That is in reference to his actions in relation to our universe and natural laws, not his attributes (such as omnibenevolence, omni-presence, omnipotence, intelligence, etc). You seriously think that negating an assertion of how someone has acted somehow negates their existence as well? Did you not read my last comment? Furthermore, if there is one true God then Allah and Yahweh are two differing ideas of which attributes that God possesses. If one set of attributes could be negated, then the remaining attributes would be possibilities for what defines the one true God. However, if the Christian God exists then the YEC, OEC, TE, and possibly many other models exist which describe how He acts in relation to our universe. If one of these models is negated, the Christian God still remains (the same God that the YEC believes in as the TE believes in based on agreed attributes as covered earlier), however a certain model put foreward for how he has acted in our universe in the past may be negated. But that's all. You've only potentially falsified a specific action in the past. What is your point anyway ... that science can disprove the existence of God if it shows that he hasn't acted in a certain way relative to our universe and natural laws? That makes absolutely no sense. You've only shown that he probably didn't perform a specific act in the past. Again, did you not read my example using yourself as the object in my previous comment? Just because I make a false assertion about something you did in the past which is subsequently falsified, does that mean that even if I could correctly state some of your attributes, that I have falsified the existence of those attributes and thus shown that you most likely don't exist. And then there is the can of worms that you open when you try to use science outside of its realm ... to falsify the unfalsifiable, as has already been aptly covered by nullasalus.CJYman
November 22, 2008
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Firstly, it's nice to see the moderation rules changed here and that there is more of a two-sided conversation occurring. I'd like to pick up on something TWclark said: "But the main problem with ID/creationism is that it doesn’t specify a mechanism for how the designer/creator did it, or any independent evidence for the existence of a designer/creator apart from the fact that things might seem designed/created..." The thing that always puzzles me about ID is why there is seemingly an arbitrary "rule" that the identification and characteristics of the designer are ruled "out of scope". I actually find this more than ironic - on the one hand ID supporters claim that conventional science has no place to ask the questions they would like to ask, and that there should be more "academic freedom" to freely inquire upon any subject or avenue of research. This I agree with, and I think it is essentially the argument Tom is making (in a much more sophisticated way - I'm certainly no philosopher of science!). But it has been made clear over and over again that the identify of the ID is somehow taboo from any scientific inquiry or part of the ID mindset. I think that odd, because there are at least a couple of analogous disciplines where the the 'who' question is very pertinent. For example, in archeology, if an artifact is found on a dig, it is VERY important to ask questions about who made it, and how, and why (and of course when). These questions are an essential part of the exploration process and guide and shape any conclusions that might be made. And another related discipline is of course forensic science. Why then, is it deemed so uninteresting and unimportant not to ask similar questions about the identify of the Designer? Let's face it - anybody who is new to ID is automatically going to ponder this question? Yet, apparently it seems it is a question only to be considered in the privacy of ones own thoughts. I find this at least more than a little disingenuous. It would be one thing if ID was occupied with the 'design detection' part and there was another related philosophical or scientific discipline that researched the identify of the Designer - but there is not. Apparently nobody is even interested in asking the question! On a similar train of thought I would like to know why Christian ID supporters make the link that the Designer is none other than the Christian God. Is this just a hunch, or wishful thinking or is it based on any kind of reasoning? I ask because I find it very hard to make any kind of conclusion about this from the Bible (which after is the primary vehicle of God's revelation). On the contrary it is much easier to make a case for a YEC God than an ID one. So, if that's the case what are the Biblical underpinnings that support ID? And if there aren't any, why is God making himself out to be a God of confusion? I've yet to see any ID proponent explain clearly why they think the Christian God is the Designer, yet it's obvious that many (if not the majority) do. Anybody here want to try?colin_evans101
November 22, 2008
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nullasalus, My point is entirely relevant. You and CJYman claim that science does not falsify the existence of the YEC God; it just shows that he doesn't have the characteristics that the YECers attribute to him. Using that logic you could claim that Zeus, Yahweh, Odin, Ahura Mazda and Hanuman are all really the same God. They just don't have the attributes that their followers think they do.ribczynski
November 22, 2008
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ribczynski, "Is Zeus the same God as Yahweh? Odin? Ahura Mazda? Hanuman? Explain your answer." Once again: Spare me. Your aims with your tortured language here are transparent. You ignore the points I've made about what follows if you insist on playing such verbal games, so your dive to try and drag this out into an argument about technicalities is of no interest. As I said, frame things that way if you please - realize what it opens you up to as a result.nullasalus
November 22, 2008
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Plate tectonics for one. Basically, we make assumptions based on contemporaneous observations about tectonic behavior and extrapolate them back to come up with a timeline as to how the continents came look as they do now. Nuclear physics for another. Basically, we note that isotopes become stable elements at consistent intervals allowing us to date the isotopes. Fair summation, or do we need to clarify?tribune7
November 22, 2008
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tribune7:
You are basically saying we should treat the billions-of-years-old earth as unquestionable dogma...
No. As with any other belief, we should continue to hold it only as long as it is supported by the evidence. The evidence is pretty solid at the moment.
...with the implication that discrimination may be warranted against those whose faith tells them different.
No, YECs should and do have the same rights as the rest of us. They are as free to disagree with us as we are to disagree with them.
What are some of the specific aspects of the various fields that you cited that show the earth to be billions of years old?
Plate tectonics for one. Nuclear physics for another.ribczynski
November 22, 2008
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ribczynski --Can you falsify the claim that the earth is billions of years old? . . . In principle, yes, which is why it qualifies as a scientific hypothesis. , , ,In practice, you’d have to falsify much of current physics, astronomy, chemistry, geology, and biology in order to demonstrate that the earth is not billions of years old. You are basically saying we should treat the billions-of-years-old earth as unquestionable dogma with the implication that discrimination may be warranted against those whose faith tells them different. What are some of the specific aspects of the various fields that you cited that show the earth to be billions of years old?tribune7
November 22, 2008
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CJYman and nullasalus, Is Zeus the same God as Yahweh? Odin? Ahura Mazda? Hanuman? Explain your answer.ribczynski
November 22, 2008
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Tom,
Re falsifying testable claims of ID, isn’t the issue that such claims on the part of ID are nearly non-existent?...But the main problem with ID is that it doesn’t specify a mechanism for how the designer/creator did it
First off, the claims of core ID are limited in scope. The others have covered the claims of core ID already in the last few comments. But in short, it is true core ID does not provide a mechanism. More on this topic and why that is not a problem: How does the actor act? But there are various ID-compatible hypotheses in the Big Tent that do provide mechanisms. For example, there is seeding, direct designing using features of quantum physics (Dembski's idea), etc. One favored mechanism is the multiple variants of "front loading". What is that? In engineered systems various possible contingencies are anticipated and processes are put in place to deal with them if and when any particular contingency actually arises in the future. These forward looking predetermined responses are “front loaded” - put in place before they are actually needed. Chance & necessity is a reactive process that cannot plan ahead. Intelligent design is a proactive process that can plan ahead. Various iterations of this hypothesis: 1. Design was implemented in the universe itself. Everything is deterministic, and a plan rolled out from the initial implementation. Behe discussed this possibility briefly in his book EoE. 2. Design is not only in the universe and its laws but in the Origin Of Life (OOL). Darwinian mechanisms are taken into account by the Designer(s) and the architecture of life itself is configured to be modular, so that multi-functionality, gene duplication, cooption, and preadaptation, etc. are able to unmask secondary information. Dembski’s recent work shows that in order to find the targets in search space active information is required. Besides “directed front-loading” there is the potential that ID only holds true in regards to the OOL. The front-loaded active information is the design of the system (modular components, plasticity in the language conventions, foresighted mechanisms, etc), which allows the “evolving holistic synthesis” to function without there being a directly embedded plan. I believe this is Mike Gene’s favored hypothesis? Of course, this presumes that Darwinian mechanisms are capable of this task, for which we have no positive evidence at this time. I personally believe that given a system intelligently constructed in a modular fashion (the system is designed for self-modification via the influence of external triggers) that Darwinian processes may be capable of more than this. But that’s foresighted non-Darwinian evolution in any case, and even if there are foresighted mechanisms for macroevolution they might be limited in scope. 3. Similar to variant 2 except there is a specific plan encoded into the original life (a single LUCA) and Darwinian mechanisms play less of a role, only being capable of producing minor variation. This plan may or may not be self-terminating. John Davison is heavily in favor of the self-terminating variant, and I think he believes there may be multiple LUCAs. 4. Similar to variant 2 or 3 except that there are multiple instances of Design (multiple Origins Of Life, multiple LUCAs) occurring at the level of kingdom or phylum. 5. Essentially 2 - 4 except with the addition of Designer Intervention for certain information that is/was not modular but specific to a particular organism. I believe this is UD Jerry’s favored position? Some might want ID to "officially" incorporate a particular ID-compatible hypothesis in order to be considered "science". Personally I think that research into all the hypotheses should be encouraged and it's way too early to be declaring one to BE ID. Core ID and ID-compatible hypotheses also have various predictions. For example, there’s the confirmed predictions related to junk DNA. Predictions of non-functionality of "junk DNA" were made by Susumu Ohno (1972), Richard Dawkins (1976), Crick and Orgel (1980, Pagel and Johnstone (1992), and Ken Miller (1994), based on Darwinian presuppositions. By contrast, predictions of functionality of "junk DNA" were made based on teleological bases by Michael Denton (1986, 1998), Michael Behe (1996), John West (1998), William Dembski (1998), Richard Hirsch (2000), and Jonathan Wells (2004). These Intelligent Design predictions of are being confirmed. e.g., ENCODE's June 2007 results show substantial functionality across the genome in such "junk" DNA regions, including pseudogenes. These predictions are further detailed in: Junk DNA at Research Intelligent Design. http://www.researchintelligentdesign.org http://www.researchintelligentdesign.org/wiki/Junk_DNA Identification and analysis of functional elements in 1% of the human genome by the ENCODE pilot project. The ENCODE Project Consortium, Nature 447, 799:816 (14 June 2007) doi:10.1038/nature05874 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v447/n7146/pdf/nature05874.pdf There are other predictions such as the genetic nature of the platypus (confirmed), the predictions about designer drugs, foresighted mechanisms for evolution (very recently confirmed), pseudogenes and insertion hotspots, long-term preservation mechanisms for conserving information that is not currently implemented, and retroviruses being capable of being used to implement designed changes. At this time the scientific research we have so far does not provide conclusive positive evidence for some of these predictions, although there are tantalizing glimpses that such predictions may become known to be true. There’s also some types of observed changes that happen so rapidly and repeatedly that they would seem to defy being within the domain of strictly Darwinian processes. But such research is just beginning.
I think it’s Behe that argues the flagellum couldn’t have been the result of natural selection, but there are eminently plausible accounts of how it could be.
Really? Then you must have access to better information than Bob Ohara, who ignored my direct challenge of "name the functional intermediates in the indirect pathway." (Of course, he did the same thing earlier when F2XL asked, "Give me what you think is a realistic pathway for an E. coli population to obtain a flagellum.") No details on mechanisms, relevant statistics, etc....just make up a general story we could have analyzed. Here is that recent conversation on UD where the hypothetical indirect pathway of the bacterial flagellum was discussed: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/chance-law-agency-or-other/#comment-289741 The end of this conversation puts the problem in perspective: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/chance-law-agency-or-other/#comment-290187 Other major points: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/behes-multiple-mutations-needed-for-e-coli/#comment-290408 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/chance-law-agency-or-other/#comment-289702 https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/id-and-catholic-theology/#comment-212175
Once entities gain existential support from science they are of course no longer considered supernatural (if indeed they were in the first place) - they are perforce naturalized.
Dembski organized some conferences in the late 90s (or was it the early 00s?) related to discussing the "nature of nature". See here for a discussion point. Bill wrote something else on UD more directly relevant but I can't remember the title...Patrick
November 22, 2008
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Excellently said nullasalus!CJYman
November 22, 2008
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ribcyznski, "I must have missed the demonstration. Look — here’s the reasoning, spelled out explicitly:" Spare me. I'm not questioning the scientific details that lead to the rejection of YEC claims. I reject YEC. Further, you know all of this. Your lame linguistic gymnastics comes down to the idea that if you falsify a claim made about an agent, you've falsified the existence of said agent. As I said, if you want to walk down that road, that's fine - then atheist models of the universe, nature, mind, and even materialism itself have been falsified repeatedly and recently. Like Tom, you think that if you awkwardly redefine words or concepts to state your position in a way that sounds more impressive, somehow it magically has more authority or power. In which case, once more - science has disproven atheism. Because I've redefined science to include apologetics, philosophical arguments, and personal testimony - and I've ruled out atheism axiomatically. Don't worry, science can't show atheism to be false - only that the likelihood of it being correct is highly improbable. If you want to open the door to claims and arguments like that, feel free. Some of us like to keep science free of extraneous philosophical and political baggage. Based on some crazy idea about respecting the process for what it is and does, not for what social uses it can serve if we just twist it the right way.nullasalus
November 22, 2008
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ribczynski: "the God he has in mind does not exist. A different God — one who created the universe billions of years ago, and is fond of beetles and tsunamis, for example — might exist. That is a separate question. But the God envisioned by the YEC does not exist." Or they may be envisioning a God based on other qualities (omnipotence, omnibenevolence, intelligence, omnipresence, etc.) yet be incorrect about certain actions of said God. So, the God envisioned by the YEC may exist, yet not act according to how they think he acts or acted in a specific situation. For example, let's say I knew who you were and I knew a bit about you so that I could envision who you were and explain to someone else a bit about you. Now, let's also suppose that I incorrectly told someone a story about something you actually had never done. If that story about what you had done is shown to be incorrect, does that mean that the ribczynski that I know and could envision does not exist? Absolutely not. It only means that I am incorrect in my assertion of how you acted in a specific situation. That is the point that nullasalus clearly drove home earlier in reference to the difference between God's existence (as defined by attributes) and God's actions as defined by how people believe that he acts/acted in specific situations relative to our universe. It is only the YEC contention over a specific God's actions in relation to our universe that may or may not have been falsified. However, the other attributes of that God may well not be falsifiable (likewise with many other metaphysical or philosophical claims such as philosophical naturalism or "materialism"). Thus the YECer's God may exist (as defined by attributes/qualities), but he may not have acted in a specific historical fashion upon which the YEC hypothesis is based and thus the YECer may be incorrect about how his God (as defined by attributes/qualities) has previously acted.CJYman
November 22, 2008
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Janice: Your edits of my orignal post are okay. I guess I'm trying to state things a bit more "diplomatically".DonaldM
November 22, 2008
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Seems like whenever the subject of MN and PN come up, discussions get long. But that's a good thing. Tom wrote:
No one can rule out that evidence might eventually surface that we are indeed the creations of a super-intelligence. At the moment, however, there’s no evidence, independent of what seems (to some) like the appearance of intentional design in organic forms, that establishes the existence of a designer, or anything about its characteristics or modes of operation. This is what I would take to be adequate evidence of ID. Until such evidence surfaces, the ID hypothesis is empty of content and thus a scientific non-starter.
Thanks for responding. With respect to the point I tried to make regarding evidence (i.e. some observed data set, let's call it ds) and how that ds connects to a particular hypothesis or theory, I can not agree with you that the current state of affairs is such that there is no known ds that can legitimately be connected to some hypothesis or theory of ID. I also don't agree that the current state of affairs is such that those who do connect a certain ds with ID are only doing so based on "appearance" of ID as opposed to "actual" ID. Let's take the ds known as irreducible complexity (IC). The current state of affairs in science with respect to IC biological systems is that there is no known Darwinian pathway via RM/NS that can build an IC system. There are a number of speculative but as yet untested or unconfirmed hypothesis for various IC systems, but nothing close to the detailed, testable models that science would require of anything else. On the other hand, we know from experience that any IC system we encounter where its history and origin are known involves intelligence to produce. The only reason to claim that a biolocial IC system as a ds can not be viewed as evidence for ID is because of MN. Assigning evidentiary status to an IC system as connected to ID follows the same process and procedure that scientists use every day. This is what I meant by a ds being viewed as evidence for a particular hypothesis or theory also requires other bits of background knowledge and information. Saying that "At the moment, however, there’s no evidence, independent of what seems (to some) like the appearance of intentional design in organic forms..." really is saying that none of the background knowledge or relevant information that some claim to justify the connection between a ds and ID actually is relevant or justified. But that isn't based on science, but a philosophical presupposition: PN disguised as MN. Further, many in science go a step further to say that no one will know of such background knowledge or relevant information ever. That, at least, is the upshot of the more hardcore defenders of PN. To legitmately exclude a connection between a ds and ID would require showing that we know scientifically that the properties of the cosmos are such that no ds that gives the appearance of ID has been or could be actually the result of ID, even in principle. Showing that scientifically would be highly problematic! It leaves us dueling over which philosophical considerations are the right and necessary ones for science.DonaldM
November 22, 2008
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In principle, yes, which is why it qualifies as a scientific hypothesis. In practice, you'd have to falsify much of current physics, astronomy, chemistry, geology, and biology in order to demonstrate that the earth is not billions of years old.ribczynski
November 22, 2008
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