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METHODOLOGICAL NATURALISM, REVISIONIST HISTORY, AND MORPHING DEFINITIONS

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Whenever I tune in to any discussion on the subject of “methodological naturalism,” I often marvel at the extent to which Darwinists will rewrite history and manipulate the language in their futile attempt to defend this so-called  “requirement” for science. In order to set the stage, we must first try to understand what methodological naturalism could possibly mean.

First, we have what one might call the “soft” definition, characterized as a preference for identifying for natural causes, a position which makes no final judgment about a universal  line of demarcation between science and non-science. Second, we have the “hard” definition as used by all the institutional Darwinists. In the second context, methodological naturalism is an institutional “rule” by which one group of researchers imposes on another group of researchers  an arbitrary, intrusive, and non-negotiable standard which states that scientists must study nature as if nature is all there is.

Ah, but that is where things start getting interesting. “How can you say that we are imposing arbitrary rules, Darwinists protest, when we are simply explaining the way that science has always been done?” Notice the deft change of cadence by which they shift from the concept of an unbending rule, which is the matter under discussion, to the notion of an often used practice, smuggling in the soft definition in the middle of a debate about the hard definition.  With respect to the latter, keep  in mind that no universally binding rule for scientific methods existed prior to the 1980’s, so there really isn’t much to argue about on that front. Rather than address the argument or  concede the fact, however, Darwinists simply evade the point, reframe the issue, and carry on a sleek as ever, hoping that no one will notice that the terms of the debate have been rewritten on the fly.

For that matter, not even the soft definition always applied to the earlier scientists, who simply used whatever methods that seemed right for the multi-varied research projects they were investigating. Some studied the law-like regularities of the universe, and it was in that context that they formulated their hypotheses. Others, more interested in outright design arguments, established their hypotheses on exactly that basis. Kepler’s laws of motion, for example, stemmed from his perception of design in the mathematical precision of planetary motion. Newton, in his classic work, Optics argued for the intelligent design of the eye and, at other places, presented something like the modern “anthropic principle” in his discussion on the positioning of the planets. No one, not even those who “preferred” to study solely natural causes,  would have dared to suggest that no other kind  of research question should ever be asked or that no other hypothesis should ever be considered.

What they were all trying to avoid was the commonplace and irrational  element of superstition and the notion that God acts capriciously, recklessly,  or vindictively,  without purpose or  thought. What they most decidedly were not doing was arguing that design cannot be a cause. On the contrary, they wanted to know more about the design that was already manifest—or to put it in the most shocking and offensive language possible—they wanted to know more about how God made the world so they could give him praise and glory, as is evident from the title page of many of their works.

If the universe wasn’t designed to be comprehensible and rational, they reasoned, there is no reason to believe that it is comprehensible and rational. Thus, there would be no reason to try to comprehend it or make rational statements about it. What would be the point? One cannot comprehend the incomprehensible or unravel the reasonableness of that which is not reasonable—nor can anything other than a reasonable being do the unraveling. They believed that the Creator set it up, as it were, so that there was a correspondence between that which was to be unraveled [the object of investigation] and the capacity of the one doing the unraveling [the investigator]. It would have gone without saying that the investigator and the investigation cannot be one and the same thing, meaning that both realms of existence are a given.  In order for [A] to correspond with [B], both [A] and [B] must exist. Thus, these scientists were 180 degrees removed from the idea that nature, one of those two realms, must be studied, as MN dictates,  as if it is the only realm. That would be tantamount to saying that nature must be investigated as if there is there is no such thing as an investigator–as of nature could investigate itself.

Returning to the present, methodological naturalists do not even have a coherent formulation with which to oppress their adversaries. Notice, for example, how selective they are about enforcing their petty rule, applying it only to ID scientists, and exempting all other researchers who violate the principle, such as searchers for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence and Big Bang Theorists.  Of course, what they are refusing to enforce in these cases are the hard definition, since ID qualifies under the soft definition.

Once this is pointed out, they morph the argument again, holding that MN, that is, the hard rule, is the preferred method for science because “it works.” But what exactly does “it” mean. Clearly, what works is not the rule because the rule, which presumes to dictate and make explicit what is “required” for science, is only about twenty-five years old. On the contrary, all real progress comes from the common sense approach of asking good questions and searching for relevant answers, using whatever methods that will provide the needed evidence and following that evidence wherever it leads.   For most, that means looking at law-like regularities, but for others it means probing the mysteries of information and the effects of intelligence. For some, it means conducting experiments and acquiring new data, but for others it means looking at what we already know in different ways. That is exactly what Einstein and Heisenberg did. We experience the benefits of science when we sit at the feet of nature and ask it to reveal its secrets, not when we presume to tell it which secrets we would prefer not to hear.

It gets worse. In fact, methodological naturalists do not even know what they mean by the two words they use to frame their rule. On the First Things blog, I recently asked several MN advocates to define the words, “natural” and “supernatural. After a series of responses, one of the more thoughtful commentators ended the discussion by writing, It seems that defining what is “natural” is one of the tasks before us.”

Indeed.  Now think about this for a moment. Entrenched bureaucrats, who do not know what they mean by the word “natural,” are telling ID scientists, who do know what they mean by the word, “natural,” that science can study only natural causes.  In effect, here is what they are saying: “You [ID scientists] are restricted to a study of the natural world, and, although I have no idea what I mean by that term, which means that I have no idea of what I mean by my rule, you are, nevertheless, condemned if you violate it.

There is more. This natural/supernatural dichotomy on which MN stands plunges Darwinists [and TEs, for that matter] in intellectual quicksand on yet another front, leaving them only one of two options:

[A] Methodological naturalism conflates all immaterial, non-natural causes, such as Divine intelligence, superhuman intelligence, and human intelligence, placing them all in the same category. Using that formulation, the paragraph I just wrote, assuming that I have a mind, was a supernatural event, which means I am a supernatural cause, —yet if I have no mind, that would mean that my brain was responsible, which would suddenly reduce me to a natural cause. This is where the Darwinists take the easy way out by simply declaring that there are no immaterial minds, while the TE’s split their brains in two pieces trying to make sense of it.

Or,

[B] Methodological naturalism defines all things that are not “supernatural” as natural, placing human cognition, human volition, earthquakes, and tornadoes in the same category. Indeed, everything is then classified as a natural cause—everything. So, whatever caused Hurricane Katrina is the same kind of cause that generated my written paragraph because, as the Darwinists instruct us, both things occurred “in nature,” whatever that means. So, if all causes are natural, then there is no way of distinguishing the cause of all the artifacts found in ancient Pompei from the cause of the volcano that buried them.  Indeed, by that standard, the archeologist cannot even declare that the built civilization of Pompei ever existed as a civilization, since the apparent evidence of human activity may well not have been caused by human activity at all.  The two kinds of causes are either substantially different or they are not. If they are different, as ID rightly insists, then those differences can be identified. If they are not different, as the Darwinists claim, then those differences cannot be identified, which means that whatever causes a volcano to erupt is comparable to whatever caused Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony to erupt.

By contrast, ID scientists point to three causes, all of which can be observed and identified: Law, chance, and agency. Once we acknowledge that point, everything falls into place. It would be so much easier to avoid all this nonsense, drop the intrusive rule of methodological naturalism, and simply concede the obvious point: Since only the scientist knows which research question he is trying to answer, only the scientist can decide which method or methods are appropriate for obtaining that answer.

Comments
----efren ts: "The knowledge derived from Newton and Boyle’s work was purely naturalistic." The knowledge derived is not the issue. What is at issue are the methods allowed in order to arrive at that knowledge. It is not MN that is responsible for our current storehouse of scientific knowledge, but rather the freedom to follow evidence wherever it leads. MN compromises that freedom in the name of ideology.StephenB
January 29, 2010
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---agentorange: "Good grief StephenB, you pretend as if theologians & scientists in the past hadn’t been investigating to find divine evidence involved?" I have said little else. Much of the early science was about precisely that---celebrating the designer's handiwork. Methodological naturalism will no permit any such approach, insisting that the scientist must study nature as if nature is all there is.StephenB
January 29, 2010
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StephenB, when Oresme said,
there is no reason to take recourse to the heavens, the last refuge of the weak, or demons, or to our glorious God as if He would produce these effects directly, more so than those effects whose causes we believe are well known to us
he stated a preference for natural explanations to supernatural ones, including his “glorious” God. That God was nothing like the irrational god that you have imagined and was not to be conflated with “demons”:
The superstition of an irrational, vindictive, angry God was out; the rationality of a purposeful, rational, designer God was in. It was not about natural causes trumping design; it was about rationality trumping superstition.
Rationality trumping superstition is precisely the point of methodological naturalism. When supernatural beings are introduced into the explanatory compass, malign beings, such as devils and demons, must also be entertained as part of the mix.Adel DiBagno
January 29, 2010
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To StephenB: You may delete my posts, but could you at least provide an example of where the supernatural has worked ? efren @29, expresses it best. Just one example, OK?Graham1
January 29, 2010
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StephenB:
I have already provided two examples with Newton and Boyle.
You will need to be more specific, since this isn't helping me. We have already agreed that a scientist can legitimately work within methodological naturalism to investigate what appears to be a non-natural event. We also agree that methodological naturalism does not allow the conclusion that a non-natural event or cause was observed. So, you will need to explain to me what non-natural event/cause that Newton and Boyle provided scientific proof of. I would certainly agree that their religious beliefs may have provided inspiration to their investigations, but I am pretty sure that the explanations that resulted were completely naturalistic. Which would keep them working within the outline of methodological naturalism, even though the term wasn't coined at the time. So, please humor me and go into a little more detail.
More to the point, it was the design paradigm that informed and gave rise to the knowledge.
I suppose that might be true in a very narrow fashion. But, I think you are conflating two different things. What may have inspired the work is not the same as the product of that work. So, what may have informed their investigation is not the same thing as what their investigation concluded. Kepler didn't find the need for angels to keep the planets in their orbit. So, while they may very well have been inspired by their religious beliefs to investigate how the world works, but their explanations did not necessarily rely on non-natural causes. The knowledge derived from Newton and Boyle's work was purely naturalistic.efren ts
January 29, 2010
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StephenB @ 22, “I have already provided two examples with Newton and Boyle. Both increased scientific knowledge by working within a design paradigm.” Respectfully, no you didn’t StephenB. No one here has. All you did is equivocation of supernatural with design thinking by humans. Humans using a method of analysis & reflection of ‘how would I design X ?’ isn’t evidence at all for the supernatural let alone evidence that the supernatural is able to explain nature more accurately that nature itself can. My question referred to the efficacy of using the untestable supernatural as an explanation for the natural world, in your case, you stated miracles. When has appealing to the supernatural to explain the natural ever occurred in history which has resulted in new knowledge about reality? I never said past scientists didn’t have an affinity of design for describing the world, some as Newton clearly did, but as Lenoxus mentioned, he doesn’t appeal to the supernatural to explain the natural in science. It’s an unnecessary addition that itself requires an explanation as to how, why, when, it did was it’s purported to have done. They used Natural explanations to explain the natural, not supernatural. “As long as the researcher refuses to consider the evidence for a non-natural event, he can investigate a non-natural event” Good grief StephenB, you pretend as if theologians & scientists in the past hadn’t been investigating to find divine evidence involved? Kepler’s chief motivation was in finding such an implication. Just b/c the act of trying to find a supernatural source hasn’t translated to actual knowledge is no reason to deplore the alternative natural method which gets results.agentorange
January 29, 2010
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Innerbling @ 18, “The pattern that corresponds most closely = best explanation” Ok then Mr. Bling, I’ll rephrase my question for you. Where in history of science has ever it occurred that the use of the supernatural to explain the natural has resulted in a measureable, objective verifiable increase in knowledge? For bonus points, in the historical context what are its (supernatural explanations) fruits? “cannot be answered… difference between natural and supernatural is not defined” I agree my question can’t be answered by your stance, though not b/c you say it’s either term has even been defined, or have been attempted to be thoroughly defined. Pleading that such terms or one of the terms are forever beyond comprehension, undefined, or exist in such ambiguity are stated only as means to save face that others haven’t tried to define them. StephenB as his source of this statement uses but a single blog, but alas such a way is not a fully representation of the terms. Instead opting for a dictionary type definition is more applicable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernaturalism Theologians & philosophers at least since the pre-Socratic era & for millennia following have posited all the possible qualities which the supernatural (gods) consist of. If either of the terms is ill defined, it’s the one which is said to exist outside of this natural one for which there is zero testable evidence of in the first place. Thus, it’s not that nature isn’t or can’t be adequately defined, it is, it’s that none have given to the extent which, nor is it likely to be given, a satisfactory definition of what the supernatural consists of in order for it to be adequately measured, quantified & tested to begin with. Further, the issue isn’t that the terms haven’t been or can’t be qualified, it’s more in that as further investigation of the nature has occurred the domain of the supernatural has been in steady retreat of explaining reality.agentorange
January 29, 2010
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StephenB @ 14, “If a miracle could be replicated, it wouldn’t be a miracle.” I think you mean if miracles actually occurred via prayers or not & could be distinguished as a part of reality in the first place, that all the worlds hospitals would shut their doors. There would simply be little to no need for much of today’s medical practices if prayers & miracles translated into effective results.agentorange
January 29, 2010
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PPPS: And since lawyers are experts on exposing fraud, that may help explain why BarryA brings very relevant expertise to the table!kairosfocus
January 29, 2010
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PPS: BTW, it looks like another welter of frauds in the name of science are coming unglued as awe watch. So, maybe 2010 is the year for frauds to crash and burn!kairosfocus
January 29, 2010
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----efren ts: "If a scientist attempts to determine a naturalistic explanation for what would otherwise appear to be a miracle, he is most definitely working within methodological naturalism." Yes, I agree with that. Insofar as he assumes that the explanation must be natural, or insofar as he looks exclusively for natural causes, he is working within the MN paradigm. He has already drawn his conclusion prior to conducting the investigation, which sums up the MN approach. ---"MN doesn’t preclude investigating miraculous events." That's right. As long as the researcher refuses to consider the evidence for a non-natural event, he can investigate a non-natural event. ----quoting agentorange: “[w]here in history of science has ever it occurred that not using nature to explain nature (methodological naturalism) resulted in a measureable, objective verifiable increase in knowledge?" I have already provided two examples with Newton and Boyle. Both increased scientific knowledge by working within a design paradigm. More to the point, it was the design paradigm that informed and gave rise to the knowledge. I could provide many other examples, but the main point is that, in those days, there was no rule to forbid design thinking. Thus, MN was not in force.StephenB
January 29, 2010
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Hi Steve: Great job! GEM of TKI PS: My own take on all this has long been that the best answer if to create a framework in which we can credibly address all causes known to leave reliable empirical markers:
1 Lawlike regularity is a signature of mechanical forces; 2 high contingency under more or less similar initial conditions that is credibly undirected [i.e. follows probabilistic, statistical patterns] is by default seen as chance 3 high contingency under more or less similar initial conditions that is credibly functionally specific and complex beyond the available search resources of the system in view, points to intelligence. [And there is not one of the MN advocates out there who would be willing to bet that this and all other posts above are the result of random noise on the net!]
And look, we have seen the trichotomy of factors and aspects of phenomena: mechanical necessity, chance, intelligence or art. And if you think that especially applied scientists from forensic fire investigators to drug action investigators do not routinely study art vs nature, you are blowing blue smoke and mirrors. What is really going on here is that when the assertions and assumptions of the materialistic magisterium are under challenge, an arbitrary authoritarian rule is being trotted out to impose censorship under the false colours of science. Fraud in the name of science/ knowledge, in one word. Sorry if that hurts, but that is the plain and now all too well warranted truth. We must not allow ourselves or our kids to be taken in by it.kairosfocus
January 29, 2010
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StephenB, “Medical scientists sometimes provide evidence for and against miraculous healings. That violates the principles of methodological naturalism.” No, I don’t think so; such inconclusive studies aren’t evidence for the supernatural at all. If the effects are only *sometimes* then it would follow that it’s more likely that there is a natural explanations to them for which we can’t yet in all cases fully explain. Many of those in the past there were attributed to divine intervention have been naturally explained. Cancer going into remission happens; it’s not miraculous, nor evidence for the supernatural. But since you advocate they do happen & are measurable, why don’t we see such miraculous healings in which amputees get their arms back? Why don’t we see burn victims who’ve suffered whole body burns or significant comparisons have their whole body skin refreshed to new? Here comes the apologetics answers: ‘god doesn’t work that way (e.g. he can’t heal such things)!’ ‘They didn’t pray enough!’ ’they’re not of the correct faith!’ Though I can see why one in your persuasion who on the one hand is asking for methodical naturalism to lower its bar of scrutiny just for your pet idea, would find such inconclusive studies as marked evidence for the supernatural. As you indicated yourself the results are a ‘mixed bag’ & there appears to be no definitive way of determining if the supernatural was actually involved or not in a given instance, it mostly comes down to a matter of faith in presupposing that is the case. “What does the question about how minds work have to do with MN’s assumption that they may not, under any circumstances, be considered as a possible cause?” How would an immaterial mind work? Any measurable testable ways of narrowing down what this entails? My question is trying to see what supportive evidence or logic *you* have on your side to claim that a mind/brain is something else besides being foundational based on material & thus can exist despite its absence. “How do you know that those events [the building of Pompei and its destruction by a volcano] originated from different natural causes” B/c we understand the natural causes behind each to the degree to comprehend that they’re not mutually arrived from the same causality. I don’t really have to explain that volcanoes, so far we know through all of our collective knowledge, do not form villages w/ people petrified under ash, do I? Yes they arrived through different causality, but in both cases the cause was a natural one.agentorange
January 29, 2010
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----Adel: "That’s just a sample from the Middle Ages." Adel, Pandas Thumb has been clinging to that quote for years, and it comes up on this site regularly as a last ditch effort to rescue a failed proposition. It doesn't even come close to speaking to the issue, much less does it refute my point. Indeed, right there in the quote are the words, ..."Although characteristically leaving the door open for the possibility of direct divine intervention,"..... The door was either open to non-natural causes [design thinking] or it was not [methodological naturalism]. As that quote makes clear, the door was open. In fact, it simply confirms what has already been said. The earlier scientists were attempting to triumph over superstition and so many came to "prefer" natural causes to indicate that God does not act frivolously, but even those who took that approach did not assert that science must always proceed in that way, nor did they, as you suggest, argue against design. Translation: The superstition of an irrational, vindictive, angry God was out; the rationality of a purposeful, rational, designer God was in. It was not about natural causes trumping design; it was about rationality trumping superstition. Even if the quote meant what you think it means, which it doesn't, it would hardly qualify as counterweight to the hundreds of unrepentant design thinkers of that era and later. They all have biographies and the record is clear. If methodological naturalism had been in force, they would have all been disfranchised and discredited. They were not intruded upon in that fashion because there was no bureaucratic rule to do the intruding.StephenB
January 29, 2010
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Agentorange asserts in 2 that: Despite saying that such realms of science use the softer version on MN, where has these domains in science asserted a supernatural agency is involved w/ either? Both refer to nature to explain itself. Where in history of science has ever it occurred that not using nature to explain nature (methodological naturalism) resulted in a measureable, objective verifiable increase in knowledge? What are its (supernatural explinations) fruits? As I explained in earlier thread science works by method of induction and by inferring best explanations. So Agentoranges assertions: "Both refer to nature to explain itself, ...using nature to explain nature" are invalid because stating set A = A is not an explanation of A. Theories are formulated by finding patterns in the induced data set and also by finding whether hypotheses pattern corresponds to induced data. The pattern that corresponds most closely = best explanation. Also Agentoranges question: "What are its (supernatural explinations) fruits?" cannot be answered because as StephenB said difference between natural and supernatural is not defined. Is string theory, ghosts, miracles, BigBang, multiverse etc. natural or supernatural and whats the difference?Innerbling
January 29, 2010
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Perhaps I may also be forgiven if I immodestly refer any interested readers to the pioneering work of my illustrious relative Adelard of Bath, (c.1080-c.1160)Adel DiBagno
January 29, 2010
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StephenB quoted Eugenie Scott, “To avoid these traps scientists assume that all causes are empirical and naturalistic — which means they can be measured, quantified and studied methodically.” And then remarked,
Nothing like that ever existed prior to the late 20th Century. If you think it did, then find it and cite it.
According to Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)
By the late Middle Ages the search for natural causes had come to typify the work of Christian natural philosophers. Although characteristically leaving the door open for the possibility of direct divine intervention, they frequently expressed contempt for soft-minded contemporaries who invoked miracles rather than searching for natural explanations. The University of Paris cleric Jean Buridan (a. 1295-ca. 1358), described as "perhaps the most brilliant arts master of the Middle Ages," contrasted the philosopher’s search for "appropriate natural causes" with the common folk’s habit of attributing unusual astronomical phenomena to the supernatural. In the fourteenth century the natural philosopher Nicole Oresme (ca. 1320-82), who went on to become a Roman Catholic bishop, admonished that, in discussing various marvels of nature, "there is no reason to take recourse to the heavens, the last refuge of the weak, or demons, or to our glorious God as if He would produce these effects directly, more so than those effects whose causes we believe are well known to us."
That’s just a sample from the Middle Ages.Adel DiBagno
January 29, 2010
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StephenB at 14:
That misses the point. Any scientist who dares to approach the subject of a miraculous healing in the name of science is violating the rule of methodological naturalism.
Well, no, not exactly. If a scientist attempts to determine a naturalistic explanation for what would otherwise appear to be a miracle, he is most definitely working within methodological naturalism. MN doesn't preclude investigating miraculous events. Nor does it prelude stating that no natural explanation can be found for what might be a miracle. It does, however, preclude miracles as a scientific explanation.
Also, what do medical therapies, which depend on law-like regularities, have to do with miraculous healings, which defy law-like regularities. If a miracle could be replicated, it wouldn’t be a miracle.
Exactly true and, therefore, puts paid to the idea you are advancing that methodological naturalism somehow is restricting the growth of scientific knowledge. And so, we return to agentorange's original question, which you still have not answered, regarding "[w]here in history of science has ever it occurred that not using nature to explain nature (methodological naturalism) resulted in a measureable, objective verifiable increase in knowledge? Alternately, I suppose you could provide an example of fruitful scientific research from the 1970s (or earlier) that would not be allowable today due to the restriction that MN presumably placed in the 1980s.efren ts
January 29, 2010
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----"Granting for a moment that medical science would state that a specific case of healing was miraculous, where is the increase in knowledge? What medical therapies were derived from the observation, and replication, of miraculous healing?" That misses the point. Any scientist who dares to approach the subject of a miraculous healing in the name of science is violating the rule of methodological naturalism. Also, what do medical therapies, which depend on law-like regularities, have to do with miraculous healings, which defy law-like regularities. If a miracle could be replicated, it wouldn't be a miracle.StephenB
January 29, 2010
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----mikev6: "No it doesn’t. You have made the claim that something didn’t exist before the 1980’s and then apparently did exist after that period." That's right. Eugenie Scott, the state of Kansas, the NAS and other scientific associations began defining the "non-negotiable" standards of science at that time. Here is a typical example: "Methodological naturalism is the label for the required assumption of philosophical naturalism when working with the scientific method. Methodological naturalists limit their scientific research to the study of natural causes, because any attempts to define causal relationships with the supernatural are never fruitful, and result in the creation of scientific "dead ends" and God of the gaps-type hypotheses. To avoid these traps scientists assume that all causes are empirical and naturalistic — which means they can be measured, quantified and studied methodically." Nothing like that ever existed prior to the late 20th Century. If you think it did, then find it and cite it. Also, you are missing the point in the post. The whole idea was to pretend that there was nothing new about it---that it was historical. Why would the Darwinists advertise the fact that they were establishing an arbitrary rule for the first time? They just did it and, when called on it, rewrote history to make it appear legitimate.StephenB
January 29, 2010
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StephenB at 8:
Agentorange:“Where in history of science has ever it occurred that not using nature to explain nature (methodological naturalism) resulted in a measureable, objective verifiable increase in knowledge? What are its (supernatural explinations) fruits?” Medical scientists sometimes provide evidence for and against miraculous healings. That violates the principles of methodological naturalism.
That doesn't answer the question. Granting for a moment that medical science would state that a specific case of healing was miraculous, where is the increase in knowledge? What medical therapies were derived from the observation, and replication, of miraculous healing?efren ts
January 29, 2010
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To StephenB: Its true that scientists may be motivated by the divine etc, and they often wax eloquent about greater things, but in the end, the explanation that is written in text books sheets the entire explanation home to purely natural explanations. I dont recall ever seeing an explanation in a text book that said 'god did it'. We may not understand the cause but there are lots of things we dont understand. We dont understand what causes MS (I think?) but we observe that it exist and may understand it some day. In the merantime we dont attribute it to supernatural causes. Ditto the big bang etc. The evidence suggests a big bang took place, and we are trying to understand it. The reason the supernatural is not invoked is because it is unproductive. Declaring 'god did it' is not an explanation, it is a dead end. If you really think the supernatural could be helpful, could you cite an example of where it has been employed and has given us some useful knowedge of how the world works. Just one example.Graham1
January 29, 2010
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StephenB:
—-rorydaulton: “Could you give a citation establishing that? [No universally binding rule for scientific methods existed prior to the 1980's].” That would be like asking me to give a citation establishing the fact that there was no Miranda rule in the 1600’s or that there was no law against drunken driving in the 1200’s. The burden of proof falls on those who say the reverse.
No it doesn't. You have made the claim that something didn't exist before the 1980's and then apparently did exist after that period. rorydaulton is asking (reasonably) for evidence behind this assertion - do you have minutes from meetings, citations to papers, articles, book quotes, etc. to show that the entire range of scientific effort changed during that period? What drove this change? Who was involved? Something this large would be noticeable, and I don't recall it, so I too am naturally curious about it.mikev6
January 28, 2010
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----rorydaulton: "Could you give a citation establishing that? [No universally binding rule for scientific methods existed prior to the 1980's]." That would be like asking me to give a citation establishing the fact that there was no Miranda rule in the 1600's or that there was no law against drunken driving in the 1200's. The burden of proof falls on those who say the reverse.StephenB
January 28, 2010
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#6 StephenB:
The issue is whether or not they practiced methodological naturalism, which they didn’t.
Well… it is certainly true, in a quibbling sort of way, that Newton "didn't" practice MN — but also that he did. Speicifically, when he was doing numerology, or theology, he was not practicing MN, but when formulating his physics, he was. God is nowhere to be found in the Principia Mathemathica. There is simply nothing non-naturalistic about planetary or other motion, and naturalism is quite sufficient to discover and describe them. In the years after developing gravitation, Newton held fast to a notion that the ultimate source of the mysterious force, taking part in every interaction, and making sure the stars didn't all collapse into one another, was Jesus. Years after famously saying "hypothesis non fingo", he actually worked out detailed, scientific-sounding systems involving the Father and Son (he happened to dispute the Trinity, interestingly. His theological views are very hard to pin down, and in some lights, he looks more like an agnostic than a believer.) Despite such advances as relativity, the force remains (in many ways) as mysterious today as then. So why that isn't Jesus being held as a serious hypothesis in modern physics, which is instead looking for Higgs bosons and gravitons? Is it merely because the religious argument now sounds "silly" — or is it due to unrelenting curiosity and a refusal to stop at supernatural "explanations"?
What would an unintelligent, naturalistic, yet responsive ET look like?
Well, SETI isn't really about how aliens "look", although some biologists have dealt with that question. (One of them was justly ripped on this very blog for his suggesting that aliens would "walk on two legs" and "look like us", which would of course contradict evolution). Wait a minute… "unintelligent"? What do you think the I in SETI stands — oh, I get it. This old straw… Hey, like it or not, naturalists really, really do believe that "intelligence" exists, even though they disbelieve in what you think must be its ultimate source. Before Pasteur, people didn't "believe" in germs — did they therefore not believe disease existed? Was it irrational for them to even talk about disease?
Yes, BB it is supposed to be supernatural because it connotes a First Cause argument. That what all the scandal and fuss was about when it first became known.
Suddenly, I wonder what Aquinas would have thought of the Big Bang, seeing how the evidence for it automatically requires a very old universe… but that's obviously neither here nor there.Lenoxus
January 28, 2010
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-----Agentorange:“Where in history of science has ever it occurred that not using nature to explain nature (methodological naturalism) resulted in a measureable, objective verifiable increase in knowledge? What are its (supernatural explinations) fruits?” Medical scientists sometimes provide evidence for and against miraculous healings. That violates the principles of methodological naturalism. -----“How would an immaterial mind work? Any measurable testable ways of narrowing down what this entails?” What does the question about how minds work have to do with MN’s assumption that they may not, under any circumstances, be considered as a possible cause? -----In the sense that both events have natural cause & effect relationships, yeah, they’re similar in that regard. But these events have originated from different natural causes. How do you know that those events [the building of Pompei and its destruction by a volcano] originated from different natural causes? How do you know that humans were involved at all? That is precisely the point. If you rule out agency, you can’t distinguish one natural cause from the other. Methodological naturalism allows for the possibility that humans had nothing to do with it--- that wind, rain, snow, erosion, and perhaps an earlier valcano eruption may have built Pompei, and that a later valcano buried it. Once scientists acknowledge the obvious fact that human agency is the only reasonable explanation for the existence of Pompei, they have transcended methodological naturalism and returned to the community of reasonable people.StephenB
January 28, 2010
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StephenB, Phenomenal post. Nothing frustrates me more (concerning methodological naturalism) than revisionist history portraying scientists (such as Newton, Faraday - the list is extensive) as practitioners of MN. As your essay demonstrates, this is clearly not the case. On a side note, I'm glad to see you have author/posting status.HouseStreetRoom
January 28, 2010
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----Lenoxus: “Ahhh, scientific originalism! If it’s good enough for Kepler and Newton, by Jove, it’s good enough for us! (Fun fact: Newton was also an alchemist and numerologist, which is why we talk about “seven” colors in the rainbow.) The issue is whether or not they practiced methodological naturalism, which they didn’t. ----“SETI has not claimed knowledge of ETs, just the possibility — a possibility which could indeed be verified naturalistically. As for the Big Bang… um, huh. I guess it’s supposed to be supernatural because it connotes the First Cause argument? Or because quantum mechanics is, like, really bizarre, and therefore supernatural?” What would an unintelligent, naturalistic, yet responsive ET look like? Yes, BB it is supposed to be supernatural because it connotes a First Cause argument. That what all the scandal and fuss was about when it first became known. -----“Why, oh why, hasn’t Dembski’s explanatory filter — the crux, if I’m not mistaken, of “law-chance-design” — been tested in double-blind trials, or used by any other mathematician? Is it testable or usable, or isn’t it? What does the question of the EF’s testability have to do with the fact that ID scientists have defined their definition of natural causes and MN advocates have not?StephenB
January 28, 2010
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Is it possible to use a prophecy to test for a supernatural agent?ellijacket
January 28, 2010
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StephenB, Congrats on the post. The willfull obfuscation and denial of history has already begun.Upright BiPed
January 28, 2010
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