Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

METHODOLOGICAL NATURALISM, REVISIONIST HISTORY, AND MORPHING DEFINITIONS

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Whenever I tune in to any discussion on the subject of “methodological naturalism,” I often marvel at the extent to which Darwinists will rewrite history and manipulate the language in their futile attempt to defend this so-called  “requirement” for science. In order to set the stage, we must first try to understand what methodological naturalism could possibly mean.

First, we have what one might call the “soft” definition, characterized as a preference for identifying for natural causes, a position which makes no final judgment about a universal  line of demarcation between science and non-science. Second, we have the “hard” definition as used by all the institutional Darwinists. In the second context, methodological naturalism is an institutional “rule” by which one group of researchers imposes on another group of researchers  an arbitrary, intrusive, and non-negotiable standard which states that scientists must study nature as if nature is all there is.

Ah, but that is where things start getting interesting. “How can you say that we are imposing arbitrary rules, Darwinists protest, when we are simply explaining the way that science has always been done?” Notice the deft change of cadence by which they shift from the concept of an unbending rule, which is the matter under discussion, to the notion of an often used practice, smuggling in the soft definition in the middle of a debate about the hard definition.  With respect to the latter, keep  in mind that no universally binding rule for scientific methods existed prior to the 1980’s, so there really isn’t much to argue about on that front. Rather than address the argument or  concede the fact, however, Darwinists simply evade the point, reframe the issue, and carry on a sleek as ever, hoping that no one will notice that the terms of the debate have been rewritten on the fly.

For that matter, not even the soft definition always applied to the earlier scientists, who simply used whatever methods that seemed right for the multi-varied research projects they were investigating. Some studied the law-like regularities of the universe, and it was in that context that they formulated their hypotheses. Others, more interested in outright design arguments, established their hypotheses on exactly that basis. Kepler’s laws of motion, for example, stemmed from his perception of design in the mathematical precision of planetary motion. Newton, in his classic work, Optics argued for the intelligent design of the eye and, at other places, presented something like the modern “anthropic principle” in his discussion on the positioning of the planets. No one, not even those who “preferred” to study solely natural causes,  would have dared to suggest that no other kind  of research question should ever be asked or that no other hypothesis should ever be considered.

What they were all trying to avoid was the commonplace and irrational  element of superstition and the notion that God acts capriciously, recklessly,  or vindictively,  without purpose or  thought. What they most decidedly were not doing was arguing that design cannot be a cause. On the contrary, they wanted to know more about the design that was already manifest—or to put it in the most shocking and offensive language possible—they wanted to know more about how God made the world so they could give him praise and glory, as is evident from the title page of many of their works.

If the universe wasn’t designed to be comprehensible and rational, they reasoned, there is no reason to believe that it is comprehensible and rational. Thus, there would be no reason to try to comprehend it or make rational statements about it. What would be the point? One cannot comprehend the incomprehensible or unravel the reasonableness of that which is not reasonable—nor can anything other than a reasonable being do the unraveling. They believed that the Creator set it up, as it were, so that there was a correspondence between that which was to be unraveled [the object of investigation] and the capacity of the one doing the unraveling [the investigator]. It would have gone without saying that the investigator and the investigation cannot be one and the same thing, meaning that both realms of existence are a given.  In order for [A] to correspond with [B], both [A] and [B] must exist. Thus, these scientists were 180 degrees removed from the idea that nature, one of those two realms, must be studied, as MN dictates,  as if it is the only realm. That would be tantamount to saying that nature must be investigated as if there is there is no such thing as an investigator–as of nature could investigate itself.

Returning to the present, methodological naturalists do not even have a coherent formulation with which to oppress their adversaries. Notice, for example, how selective they are about enforcing their petty rule, applying it only to ID scientists, and exempting all other researchers who violate the principle, such as searchers for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence and Big Bang Theorists.  Of course, what they are refusing to enforce in these cases are the hard definition, since ID qualifies under the soft definition.

Once this is pointed out, they morph the argument again, holding that MN, that is, the hard rule, is the preferred method for science because “it works.” But what exactly does “it” mean. Clearly, what works is not the rule because the rule, which presumes to dictate and make explicit what is “required” for science, is only about twenty-five years old. On the contrary, all real progress comes from the common sense approach of asking good questions and searching for relevant answers, using whatever methods that will provide the needed evidence and following that evidence wherever it leads.   For most, that means looking at law-like regularities, but for others it means probing the mysteries of information and the effects of intelligence. For some, it means conducting experiments and acquiring new data, but for others it means looking at what we already know in different ways. That is exactly what Einstein and Heisenberg did. We experience the benefits of science when we sit at the feet of nature and ask it to reveal its secrets, not when we presume to tell it which secrets we would prefer not to hear.

It gets worse. In fact, methodological naturalists do not even know what they mean by the two words they use to frame their rule. On the First Things blog, I recently asked several MN advocates to define the words, “natural” and “supernatural. After a series of responses, one of the more thoughtful commentators ended the discussion by writing, It seems that defining what is “natural” is one of the tasks before us.”

Indeed.  Now think about this for a moment. Entrenched bureaucrats, who do not know what they mean by the word “natural,” are telling ID scientists, who do know what they mean by the word, “natural,” that science can study only natural causes.  In effect, here is what they are saying: “You [ID scientists] are restricted to a study of the natural world, and, although I have no idea what I mean by that term, which means that I have no idea of what I mean by my rule, you are, nevertheless, condemned if you violate it.

There is more. This natural/supernatural dichotomy on which MN stands plunges Darwinists [and TEs, for that matter] in intellectual quicksand on yet another front, leaving them only one of two options:

[A] Methodological naturalism conflates all immaterial, non-natural causes, such as Divine intelligence, superhuman intelligence, and human intelligence, placing them all in the same category. Using that formulation, the paragraph I just wrote, assuming that I have a mind, was a supernatural event, which means I am a supernatural cause, —yet if I have no mind, that would mean that my brain was responsible, which would suddenly reduce me to a natural cause. This is where the Darwinists take the easy way out by simply declaring that there are no immaterial minds, while the TE’s split their brains in two pieces trying to make sense of it.

Or,

[B] Methodological naturalism defines all things that are not “supernatural” as natural, placing human cognition, human volition, earthquakes, and tornadoes in the same category. Indeed, everything is then classified as a natural cause—everything. So, whatever caused Hurricane Katrina is the same kind of cause that generated my written paragraph because, as the Darwinists instruct us, both things occurred “in nature,” whatever that means. So, if all causes are natural, then there is no way of distinguishing the cause of all the artifacts found in ancient Pompei from the cause of the volcano that buried them.  Indeed, by that standard, the archeologist cannot even declare that the built civilization of Pompei ever existed as a civilization, since the apparent evidence of human activity may well not have been caused by human activity at all.  The two kinds of causes are either substantially different or they are not. If they are different, as ID rightly insists, then those differences can be identified. If they are not different, as the Darwinists claim, then those differences cannot be identified, which means that whatever causes a volcano to erupt is comparable to whatever caused Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony to erupt.

By contrast, ID scientists point to three causes, all of which can be observed and identified: Law, chance, and agency. Once we acknowledge that point, everything falls into place. It would be so much easier to avoid all this nonsense, drop the intrusive rule of methodological naturalism, and simply concede the obvious point: Since only the scientist knows which research question he is trying to answer, only the scientist can decide which method or methods are appropriate for obtaining that answer.

Comments
efren ts: "Even though this gets into territory I was going to leave to R0b, there are two brief points to be made here:" I have already been discussing this with ROb in this thread, and I already referred you to our discussion above. Is this another example of you ignoring me? efren ts: "1. You are suggesting that evolutionary algorithms don’t work any better than a random walk." An EA works better than a random walk precisely because of the matching that I discussed with ROb above. efren ts: "They do and are used all the time. Now I am sure that you will respond “they work but they don’t generate (organized) CSI” and cite D&M’s paper, which brings us to point 2." If you are implying that it is easier for law+chance to build an EA that will generate CSI, then please just show me that it is easier for law+chance to generate an EA that will produce this comment of mine absent intelligence in its causal chain. I've already shown you how this can be done and I've referred you to random.org for the random function. But, then again I've already asked this of you and you've done nothing but ignore me and accuse me of "heckling from the sidelines." It's about time you start backing up your assertions about what law+chance can do to generate those patterns not even defined by law+chance (absent intelligence) and which are observed requiring intelligence.CJYman
February 12, 2010
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Oops, I meant to say "Both are recently inactive, but comments are open and unmoderated."efren ts
February 12, 2010
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CJYman:
The point is that, according to the most recent work by Dembski and Marks, it is just as improbable to generate and EA that will lead to a certain event as it is to generate that event from scratch.
Even though this gets into territory I was going to leave to R0b, there are two brief points to be made here: 1. You are suggesting that evolutionary algorithms don't work any better than a random walk. They do and are used all the time. Now I am sure that you will respond "they work but they don't generate (organized) CSI" and cite D&M's paper, which brings us to point 2. 2. You rightly qualify your comments "if Dembski and Marks are correct." On that matter, you might want to review Tom English's blog Bounded Science another pseudonymous blog, DiEbLog. In order to avoid the spam filter, I am not providing the links, but would note that both are the first link when you Google the italicized words. Both are recently inactive
I don’t know what the problem is, but I just submitted another comment to efren ts and it didn’t post.
Bwa Ha HA! All your base are belong to us!efren ts
February 12, 2010
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CJY (& ET): Your exchange underscores why the functionally specific subset of CSI is so important. Actually, that is sort of back ways around. For, back in 1973, Orgel wrote:
In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified [spund familiar Rob?]. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity. [L.E. Orgel, 1973. The Origins of Life. New York: John Wiley, p. 189. NB: Paul Davies, later on was said to have observed: Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity.]
That is, functional organisation was recognised from the outset as a key way that we see specified complexity relevant to OOL and OO biodiversity contexts. (As a bonus, it is clear that he CSI concept is NOT original to Dembski nor dismissible with him through the usual -- but ever so sadly revealing -- ad hominems. WD produced a series of models on a generalisation of an observation that had naturally emerged in OOL studies by the 1970's; right at the top tier of OOl researchers. As we saw from Durston et al above, others have also produced related models, and metrics and extensive discussions have been published in the peer reviewed literature; some of it outside the "recognised" ID movement.) Going further, it is helpful to look at Wicken and his remarks:
Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems.  Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [originally . . . Von Neumann self-replicators internalise the diagram, or its equivalent list of nodes, connecting arcs to other nodes, and interfaces at the nodes] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. I have added emphases and parentheses.]
From this we see that functionally specific complex organisation embeds not the mere periodicity that happens under natural forces, or the happenstance of randomness, but specific organisation. In step by step points: a --> Such organisation can be turned into quantifiable functional information through recognising that to identify the nodes, arcs and interfaces as above, we have to specify not only codes and data structures, but also content. [Think about the description of nodes, circuit traces, contact pads etc on a computer motherboard.] b --> Soon, we will rapidly exceed 1,000 contextually relevant yes/no decisions, i.e 1,000 bits. c --> And, 2^1,000 ~ 1.07*10^301; about ten times the square of the number of Planck-time quantum states the ~ 10^80 atoms of our observed cosmos will go through in its thermodynamically credible lifespan, about 50 million times the 13.7 BY commonly said to have elapsed since the big bang. d --> So, if a complex, functionally specific organised entity is beyond the 1,000 bit threshold for FSCI -- Functionally specific, complex information (the relevant subset of CSI) -- then we have reason to see that a search on the order of the cosmos would not exceed 1 in 10^150 of the potential configurations, i.e. the search reasonably rounds down to effectively zero scope. [And Rob, no explicit, elaborated probability model is needed to see that. this is a "no credible search" issue, not a "low probability" issue.] e --> In short, absent writing the specific system into the laws of the cosmos [which invites a cosmological level design inference, immediately implicating an extra-cosmic, intelligent and very powerful designer as the most credible cause], it is simply not plausible for undirected chance + necessity to spontaneously generate FSCI. f --> We do, however, have a routinely observed, known source for such FSCI, intelligence, as these blog posts demonstrate. g --> So, it is reasonable, per well-tested induction on empirical evidence and the reliable sign of intelligence, functionally specific complex organisation and its associated information, to infer from FSCI to design. h --> The now commonplace attempt to impose the censoring constraint that we may only explain by "natural causes" in science then runs into the double problems that:
(i) those who would impose such a constraint are unable to provide a non-quesiton begging set of relevant definitions of "nature," "natural causes" etc, and: (ii) science, at its best, is concerned with the unfettered but responsible pursuit of the truth about our world in light of empirical evidence, so the censoring out of otherwise credible alternative explanations is unjustifiable.
i --> It seems therefore that it would be wiser to revert to methodological neutralism, i.e refraining from imposing materialist [or other ideological] censorship in the name of "science" and "science education." ____________ GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 12, 2010
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Hello moderators, I don't know what the problem is, but I just submitted another comment to efren ts and it didn't post. I'm wondering if the spam filter caught it again. If you could check into it that would be great. Thanks.CJYman
February 11, 2010
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Toronto, Welcome to the discussion. The point is that, according to the most recent work by Dembski and Marks, it is just as improbable to generate and EA that will lead to a certain event as it is to generate that event from scratch. This is actually a very simple idea to understand. It is just as hard (in terms of specified improbabilities) to generate an EA that will produce this comment of mine as it is to generate this comment of mine de novo -- by random coalescing of letters. Thus, if Dembski and Marks are correct, if law+chance won't generate organized CSI absent intelligence, then law+chance won't generate the EA to produce organized CSI absent intelligence. That is why the calculation of CSI is so important when assessing causal adequacy.CJYman
February 11, 2010
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efren ts, I'd love to continue on as I have, with quicker responses, however mid terms are now in full force. So, I'll still be around, but unfortunately you may have to wait a little longer for my responses. You state: "That sound of rushing air you might have heard is my point whistling right on by. Let me cut right to the chase. CSI is presented as one of the signature tools in the ID scientist’s kit. Yet, it appears to be under such simplified assumptions that the only hypothesis it eliminates is the one that does not exist (the chance hypothesis) except as the strawman you are knocking down." Dembski himself has stated, and I have shown above how CSI does indeed reliably eliminate the chance hypothesis. Again, Mustela brought up the same type of point that you bring up here. Did you bother to read my response that I linked for you a couple times now? On top of that, you must have missed my full argument above explaining how CSI + organization do exactly what the EF requires for us to move on to detecting intelligence, along with observing that such systems, when we can observe them being generated, require foresight (the main aspect of intelligence). Any reason why you are ignoring my argument? efren ts: "But, when asked to demonstrate his efficacy at using CSI by calculating it on a suitable control (an undesigned artifact, or asked to assess the probabilistic impact of known physical phenomenom, all of a sudden the ID scientist backs away from his calculator and suddenly it becomes the critic’s responsibility to do the calculations." I showed you exactly how, even without completing the calculation, we know we will arrive at a < 1 value. This is simply based on an understanding of -log2 of the large number multiplied by 1. If you assert that there is anything wrong with my explanation it is up to you to go through the calculation and show me where I am wrong. I'm sorry but I don't have the time to complete your argument and do your work for you. You are merely doing the exact same thing that Zachriel has done. Make some assertion and refuse to back it up with some of your own calculations. Why is that? You seem to purport to understand CSI since you are arguing against it? You wouldn't argue against a concept you don't even understand would you? efren ts: "As I said, it isn’t my job to do your work for you. And if you aren’t willing to build your own work, you should not be surprised when people don’t give your claims much credence." I've already done my work. I've given a rough calculation of the protein Titin, and I've shown that your "zeroing" of CSI against a certain rock does indeed return a < 1 value without even having to break out the calculator. It really is that simple. That's more than you've done. You seem perfectly content to heckle from the sidelines and not back up any of your assertions or even bother to engage in my arguments about combining CSI + organization. You merely flailed your arms in a huff about how I brought "organization" into the picture. Uhuh ... and?!?!?! Your point? I've aleady explained where I disagree with Dembski. Are you willing to engage my arguments? Wow ... talk about obfuscation here. CJYman: "BTW, ROb is actually one of those critics that I would call “relevant” since he actually understands and engages the arguments. You could learn a thing or two from him I’m sure." efren ts: "If I am not relevant, then you are certainly free to close your eyes, stick you fingers in your ears and pretend I am not here, as others have. Pretty quickly, I’ll get bored and wander off, leaving you in peace." When have I pretended you weren't here. What argument of yours that you've actually bothered to back up have I ignored? Something about rocks and glass houses comes to mind ... CJYman: "Oh, and back to the original topic of this thread, are you yet able to define “nature” in such a way that it is both useful in a scientific investigation and useful for defining MN in such a way as to exclude ID Theory from science?" efren ts: "Yes and no. Yes, I am able to define nature. No, it isn’t yet clear it excludes ID Theory. We’ll figure it out once we get there. So, as the first step in that direction, I would refer you back to the final paragraph in my comment 467. With the clarification offered in that comment, do you agree that definitions should be neutral as not to bias the subsequent inquiry?" No I still do not agree. A definition is what it is. The definition, though, will constrain its utility. In your example, the "incorrect" definition of ET merely makes it less useful. I will put in another plug for StephenB's definition, since it is useful in distinguishing the subservient-supervening relationship between law+chance-intelligence. Furthermore, it uses the real definition of "super" as "above/supervening/going beyond [what law+chance on its own can do]" as opposed to "a violations of ..." But, I've already explained that quite fully above in my comments to you on more than one occasion. But, let's just say I agree with you for the sake of argument. What is your definition of "nature." Let's carry on and see how StephenB's main point of this thread holds up.CJYman
February 11, 2010
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Toront@476, Oops, that's "I also feel that.."Toronto
February 11, 2010
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efren ts @474, I hope you don't wander off as I think your posts are very relevant. I also see feel that CSI always ends up calculating the odds of getting from "state 0" to "state 10^100". Evolution doesn't claim to do that. It proceeds from "state n" to "state n+1". That has to be taken into account.Toronto
February 11, 2010
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---Jerry: "I have not followed this thread but have a question. Your original post at the top was excellent. Was there anything said along the way that would make you modify it at all. What little I have seen is the usual suspects spouting the usual nonsense." Thank you for your kind words. With respect to the responses, no, the almost 500 comments that have followed my opening gambit have only confirmed its defining theme.StephenB
February 11, 2010
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CJYMan:
ctually better yet. Since you seem to be claiming to understand CSI — you seem to imply I’ve done my calculation for granite wrong — why don’t you go through the steps I’ve explained in the thread I linked to and calculate the CSI in granite as I have done for Titin.
That sound of rushing air you might have heard is my point whistling right on by. Let me cut right to the chase. CSI is presented as one of the signature tools in the ID scientist's kit. Yet, it appears to be under such simplified assumptions that the only hypothesis it eliminates is the one that does not exist (the chance hypothesis) except as the strawman you are knocking down. But, when asked to demonstrate his efficacy at using CSI by calculating it on a suitable control (an undesigned artifact, or asked to assess the probabilistic impact of known physical phenomenom, all of a sudden the ID scientist backs away from his calculator and suddenly it becomes the critic's responsibility to do the calculations. As I said, it isn't my job to do your work for you. And if you aren't willing to build your own work, you should not be surprised when people don't give your claims much credence.
BTW, ROb is actually one of those critics that I would call “relevant” since he actually understands and engages the arguments. You could learn a thing or two from him I’m sure.
If I am not relevant, then you are certainly free to close your eyes, stick you fingers in your ears and pretend I am not here, as others have. Pretty quickly, I'll get bored and wander off, leaving you in peace.
Oh, and back to the original topic of this thread, are you yet able to define “nature” in such a way that it is both useful in a scientific investigation and useful for defining MN in such a way as to exclude ID Theory from science?
Yes and no. Yes, I am able to define nature. No, it isn't yet clear it excludes ID Theory. We'll figure it out once we get there. So, as the first step in that direction, I would refer you back to the final paragraph in my comment 467. With the clarification offered in that comment, do you agree that definitions should be neutral as not to bias the subsequent inquiry?efren ts
February 11, 2010
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StephenB, I have not followed this thread but have a question. Your original post at the top was excellent. Was there anything said along the way that would make you modify it at all. What little I have seen is the usual suspects spouting the usual nonsense.jerry
February 11, 2010
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The beat goes on. Darwinists participate in the discussion only to the extent that they can scrutinze CSI, and withdraw totally when CJYman, myself, or anyone else scrutinizes them about MN---they are always on offense, never on defense---so it has always been, so it will always be.StephenB
February 11, 2010
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CJYman, Joseph, and efren ts, Here is a definition that I hope everyone on the EVO side can agree on: [1] A natural cause is one that solely originates from, is constrained by, and is the result of, the forces of physics.-Toronto
February 11, 2010
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efren ts, actually better yet. Since you seem to be claiming to understand CSI -- you seem to imply I've done my calculation for granite wrong -- why don't you go through the steps I've explained in the thread I linked to and calculate the CSI in granite as I have done for Titin. Then, we should be able to move this discussion forward.CJYman
February 11, 2010
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efren ts, You really should read through the whole discussion I had with Mustela that I linked for you, as most of the assertions you put forward here are answered in that discussion. I'm of to go get me some edumacation now, but I'll come back and re-explain to you how to calculate CSI and answer the rest of your uncharitable readings such as my "waiving my hand about OSCI." I also linked to my explanation of organization, and I've explained a few times above why it must be combined with CSI in order for us to move through the EF. There is a lot that I have explained above that you are just plain ignoring. Furthermore, I responded to everyone one of Zachriel's questions as I had the time. If there is one that you don't think I've responded to, after reading the exchange with Mustela, since that was somewhat of a continuation, then please bring the relevant question forward and I will do my best to answer it. BTW, ROb is actually one of those critics that I would call "relevant" since he actually understands and engages the arguments. You could learn a thing or two from him I'm sure. I would recommend you follow our exchange above as well, since it is within the topic that we are now discussing. Oh, and back to the original topic of this thread, are you yet able to define "nature" in such a way that it is both useful in a scientific investigation and useful for defining MN in such a way as to exclude ID Theory from science?CJYman
February 11, 2010
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"If we repeatedly sample something for long enough, we will always end up with a distribution that changes very little with additional samples. Do you agree?" Most definitely not. Sample age distribution, birth rate, income, height, etc. over time and it changes dramatically and also from place to place. One has to define the urn in terms of time and place. Now, if we sample a specific population at a given moment the law of large numbers takes effect but for distributions depending upon intelligent decisions, the population changes quickly over time and from place to place so the sampling at time T1 in population P1 can be very different from the sampling at time T2 or for any other population P2 at T!. Now a somewhat similar situation could occur in nature, to use the word to mean where no life occurs or has no appreciable effect such as stars, solar systems and galaxies or the inside of the mantle or in chemical reactions. Sampling from time to time and place to place could have changes in distributions of certain phenomena and that is what makes a lot of science go. But one expects to find laws to explain the outcomes. One does not expect to find laws to explain all of what humans or an intelligence using free will would do. I have read little of this thread but just saw this comment and had to answer it. It was an irresistible impulse and was driven by some law somewhere.jerry
February 10, 2010
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CJYMan:
Yes, it does measure the probability of a de novo creation, however the probability of generating an EA for a > 1 result of CSI — an efficient, better than chance, result — is at least as hard as generating the event in question de novo. IOW, it is at least as hard — in terms of specified probability — to generate the set of laws and initial conditions (evolutionary algorithm) that will produce this comment of mine as it is for the constituents of this comment (letters) to randomly coalesce into this comment of mine.
I am struggling to parse this into something comprehensible. The best I can do is reduce this down to you stating that the probability of law and chance creating a biological structure is at least equivalent to, and perhaps more improbable than, chance alone (de novo). I don't know on what basis you can make this assertion, since you have steadfastly stayed away from assessing the probabilistic influence of known, observed physical and chemical phenomenom on the calculations. When Zachriel pointed this very thing out, your response was to tell him to go re-calculate it himself. The fact that your critics choose not to do your work for you is hardly proof that your assertion is correct.
efren ts: To that end, by not taking into account any known physical, chemical, and biological processes, you are arguing against a creation model that no one, but no one, holds to. First, the fact that CSI doesn’t negate law is something I’ve already explained here.
So, then we are in agreement that your CSI calculation falsifies a creation model that no one is seriously advancing? I think that is called arguing against a strawman.
Hence the addition of "organized" to CSI in order to arrive at a design inference. Finding an organized pattern and then calculating CSI is the same as running through the EF, negating law and then chance.
Now we have organized CSI, in addition to CSI, FCSI, and FSCI? Sometimes it almost seems as if you guys are winging it as you go along. But, I see that R0b is digging into OSCI with you, so I am going defer to him.
efron ts: Thus, by such exclusions, you calculation is meaningless. Basically, that calculation does exactly what it is supposed to do - eliminate the chance hypothesis.
Well, since no one actually believes a purely chance hypothesis, nothing has been gained. You haven't added any new knowledge to the scientific canon. You haven't disproved anyone's pet theory. All you did was give that strawman what for. It will be a long while before he shows his face around here again, I tell you what.
efren ts: I suspect you will take exception to this, so I would ask that you calculate CSI on a hunk of granite as a suitable control. OK, in fact this is something that you could quite easily do I'm sure.
Don't think I didn't notice what you did there. I expected you would. Whenever when challenged on your CSI calculation, you try to throw the monkey on the critics back. When Zachriel brought up the issue of homochirality, you responded (and I quote) "Oh look at that, Zachriel you get the opportunity to engage in ID research" and then disappeared for two weeks.
First, determine the mass of the granite and then the number of atoms in that mass. Use that number to calculate the number of possible arrangements of that many atoms of those type of minerals in the granite. Then, determine if there is any specificity as I've explained in the link on calculating the CSI of the protein Titin. You will discover that the specificity = 1 since granite can be made of any and all sequential arrangements of those atoms in the chunk of granite. IOW, there is no specificity.
I don't agree. Granite is made up of, if memory serves, around a dozen different compounds present in a relatively narrow range of proportions. Sounds very specific to me. I believe it has lots of CSI. If you think I am wrong, this is your opportunity to engage in a double blind test of the efficacy CSI and the EF. Notice what I did there?
No where have I stated or implied design by default.
By asserting that it is your critics responsibility to engage in the research to disprove you, you most certainly are. But that is a minor point.
I have shown that there exist patterns which are neither defined by law nor by chance
Are you referring to Titin? Because if you are, you have shown no such thing. You shown that it is not defined by chance. You have shown no such thing for law. And that is the point Zachriel was trying to make with reference to homochirality, a known and observed phenomenom. I know of no gentle way to put this, but your demonstrated ignorance of the body of physical and chemical law renders you incompetent to represent any such assertion as proven.
Finding the limits, if there are any, of law+chance - especially in relation to patterns neither defined by law nor chance - isn't a research program?
It might be, if that was what you were doing. But you aren't. You are doing a CSI calculation that disproves an idea that no one subscribes to, waving your hands about OCSI, then challenging someone else to do the work. Ignorance is thankfully curable, so I will leave you and R0b to your discussion of OCSI. I look forward to your example that at least attempts to assess the probabilistic impact of known physical and chemical law. I do want to move onto another matter where I am not tripping over R0b, so I am going to jump a little bit forward.
efren ts: "And we are back to the point I was trying to make to Stephen someone else, but wasn’t given the opportunity. But, you seem to be a game fellow. So, let me ask you. Do you agree that a definition should be neutral and not bias the course of the inquiry? I'm honestly not sure I understand the question. A definition is an explanation or a description of something. If it adequately describes something, we are good to go. I don't see how a definition can be either neutral or not-neutral. It just is what it is, and if it adequately defines, then we can use it.
Let me go back to my prior illustration and offer two definitions of an extra-terrestiral. The first is defintion of extra-terrestrial is "an intelligent life form not native to our planet."The second is "an intelligent, non-humanoid life form not native to our planet." Do you see how the second definition includes an assumption about the form an extra-terrestrial would take, i.e. non-humanoid? And, thus, how that definition could lead an investigator to an improper conclusion when humanoid Vulcans show up in Montana in 2063? I would assert that the second definition is not neutral and could likely bias any conclusions of a scientific inquiry that is based on it. So, with that clarification, do you agree that definitions should be neutral as not to bias the subsequent inquiry?efren ts
February 10, 2010
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ROb: "Ah, if we consider only targets that are organized CSI, that could change things. If we were talking about *plain* CSI, specificity would be a no-brainer, as the target (say, the Mediterranean) is simply described, and CINDE always obtains under a hypothesis of pure chance." Kind of, but it still takes more than just stating the end location pre-specify the event. A twig merely floating in the Mediterranean isn't specified. Defining the relationship between pattern and event is required to define the specificity. The event would have to be defined more precisely so we know what exactly we are measuring -- ie: a specific twig breaking off a specific tree and falling in a specific river and then ending up in a specific sea; or any twig falling off any tree and ending up in any sea, or any combination in between. That is why I have stated above that measuring the event is not practical. And then, if we pre-specify a certain end result (such as a specific sea) we have to look at all the probabilities as I mentioned before to see if it is actually an improbable event that we are dealing with. I'm sure there are many twigs that are floating around in the Mediterranean. Even then, in the end, there is more than just chance if the twig is being carried down the river toward the sea *only* if we begin with an already existing river and don't take into account all possible rivers and all possible twigs, and then the problem decays into extreme impracticality. In the end, I'm not sure what we are actually measuring. Are we measuring the probability that any river will form and carry any twig from any tree down to a specific sea ... I'm getting dizzy just thinking of exactly how to formulate the question to get an accurate CSI measurement that will serve to give us a good answer to the question you are trying to ask. It is much easier to apply CSI to a relatively well defined search space and a well defined type of specificity such as functional specificity, an example being a folding and biologically relevant protein such as Titin. But even then, at the moment we can only get a lower bound on the amount of CSI that Titin contains. HOwever, in that case, at least we have an event which is defined in terms of CSI. And that's only one protein. Imagine the CSI in a few protein interactions, in a cell, in an organ, an organism, and ultimately in intelligence and consciousness. Wow, I honestly don't even think that the string theory multiverse could provide enough probabilistic resources to account for intelligence, setting aside that multiverses still are merely objective, so that they don't provide any explanatory value for the subjective moments of consciousness. But, again I digress, which is something I'm sure you've noticed is near impossible for me not to do. Back on topic with our discussion ... CSI can't always be practically measured, but in the cases that it can, it is useful. Furthermore, when combined with an organized pattern, it packs quite the punch when used in an ID argument. ROb: "May I assume that when you say “CSI”, you mean “organized CSI”? Hopefully I’ll have time soon to formulate my thoughts on that concept." Yes, right on the mark! I usually just write "CSI," since it takes less time. Hopefully, I'll hear from you soon. And back to where you seemed to imply that Trevor and Abel's work doesn't do much to help the situation, I'd just like to say that I completely disagree, since it is their work that helped me formulate my thoughts on law and order vs. organization.CJYman
February 10, 2010
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CJYman:
Only matching that produces organized CSI, since organized CSI is neither defined by law nor best explained by chance and all examples that we can observe being generated require intelligence.
Ah, if we consider only targets that are organized CSI, that could change things. If we were talking about *plain* CSI, specificity would be a no-brainer, as the target (say, the Mediterranean) is simply described, and CINDE always obtains under a hypothesis of pure chance. May I assume that when you say "CSI", you mean "organized CSI"? Hopefully I'll have time soon to formulate my thoughts on that concept.R0b
February 10, 2010
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ROb: "But according to the EIL, such a matching is *always* as improbable as finding the original target. See the proof in Appendix B here. Since the stick in the river is an example of such a matching, the question remains: Where is the intelligence in a stick flowing to the sea?" Why would you jump to an intelligence if law+chance can explain the pattern without any matching? Just because an EA is employed, doesn't mean that the original pattern to be generated is correlated and improbable, thus requiring intelligence. Thus, the EA itself would not be specified and complex enough to require intelligence either. Just because an EA is utilized doesn't mean the problem is hard to begin with. I'm absolutely positive I've seen Dr. Dembski and/or Dr. Marks discuss this in one of their papers. That is also why I stated above that matching doesn't necessarily require intelligence. Only matching that produces organized CSI, since organized CSI is neither defined by law nor best explained by chance and all examples that we can observe being generated require intelligence. If the pattern in question requires intelligence absent an EA, then it also requires intelligence in order to generate the EA that will produce that pattern. That is the connection between CSI, active info, EAs, and the proof of the transfer of probabilities (information) that you linked to. So, in your example what is the original probability and specificity of the event in question? Unless you are dealing in terms of pre-specificity (in a sort of prognostication) -- ie: "this specific twig will break off, fall into the river and end up in the ocean" and then calculate the probabilities, I don't see how "specificity" can be determined taking into account all the twigs on our planet and all the rivers available. Then, what is the probability and specificity of the matching -- although I'm not sure I see where any matching between search space and search algorithm is taking place? Your example would, I think, be horribly impractical to calculate since one would have to take into account all available twigs, rivers, averages of twigs which can fall into rivers vs. twigs which won't fall into rivers, and including the fact that you state that the probability of a twig falling into a river and ending up in the sea being very high, I'm quite certain that the calculation would fall in line with Dembski and Mark's theoretical work. The main question should be, does any twig floating around in the sea qualify as an organized CSI event, since if it does not, then there is nothing to argue about, since law+chance are capable of explaining the event (whether an EA is involved or not). ROb: "WRT your definitions of law and organization, you clearly have put a lot of good thought into them, and your thinking is reminiscent of others’. My response to them will have to wait until a future comment. Thank you for being one of the most thoughtful (in both senses of the word) discussants on this forum." Well, I have to say that the people who contribute to UD definitely do a ton to pick my brain and if it wasn't for UD and the contributors (especially the critics), I wouldn't be able to develop some of my thoughts as I have. As well, thank you for being a relevant critic and not engaging in obfuscation ... as far as I can remember ;)CJYman
February 10, 2010
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CJYman:
So, intelligence does become a necessary causal factor when that matching [of search algorithm to search space to generate an EA] is just as improbable as arriving at CSI (event we are attempting to generate in the first place).
But according to the EIL, such a matching is *always* as improbable as finding the original target. See the proof in Appendix B here. Since the stick in the river is an example of such a matching, the question remains: Where is the intelligence in a stick flowing to the sea? WRT your definitions of law and organization, you clearly have put a lot of good thought into them, and your thinking is reminiscent of others'. My response to them will have to wait until a future comment. Thank you for being one of the most thoughtful (in both senses of the word) discussants on this forum.R0b
February 10, 2010
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vjtorley:
The above-mentioned distributional pattern for human action is always changing, so it’s not lawlike. By contrast, the probability function for carbon-14 is invariant, and calculable. Thus here we have a fixed action pattern.
If we repeatedly sample something for long enough, we will always end up with a distribution that changes very little with additional samples. Do you agree?R0b
February 10, 2010
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Clive, Is there a way of displaying a moderated post at the time it is approved as opposed to when it is written? For example, if I make a post that I see as 425, when it is approved, it appears at location 425 even though everyone has moved on to post 460. This means my post is not going to be seen by anyone unless they somehow know to go back and look for it. I have no problem with being moderated, but the side effect is that some of my comments or responses to others will never be read. Thanks.Toronto
February 10, 2010
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vjtorley @451:
However, there are at least some mathematical laws which hold true of viruses (e.g. the laws describing their structure and life cycle).
That’s very interesting. I didn’t know those things, and would like to learn more. I knew that one can describe the structure of some viruses using the mathematics of crystallography and I know that there are crystallographic patterns that fit some virus structures. But I was unaware of any “laws” pertaining. Would you supply a reference? Likewise, I would be interested in learning more about the mathematical description of virus life cycles.Adel DiBagno
February 10, 2010
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OOOps, then my comment will be appearing a "few times" as I tried to submit it on multiple occasions. My apologies.CJYman
February 10, 2010
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CJYman, I'm not sure why, but some of your comments were automatically going into the spam folder. Since you alerted me to this problem, I went to that folder and approved the comments.Clive Hayden
February 10, 2010
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CJYman, I don't know what is going on here. Is there any way that our administrators can intevene. CJYman has been trying to post for almost two days.StephenB
February 10, 2010
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Tried to post the response again, but still isn't showing up. Is it possible that I'm using a "bad" word that some spam filter is detecting?CJYman
February 10, 2010
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Apparently, the system is still working. Maybe if I add this little bit before I post my response it'll go through ... Here goes ... efren ts: "I see two problems here. Your first statement validates that your CSI calculation only tests the probabilities of a de novo creation for the biological structure under consideration." Yes, it does measure the probability of a de novo creation, however the probability of generating an EA for a > 1 result of CSI -- an efficient, better than chance, result -- is at least as hard as generating the event in question de novo. IOW, it is at least as hard -- in terms of specified probability -- to generate the set of laws and initial conditions (evolutionary algorithm) that will produce this comment of mine as it is for the constituents of this comment (letters) to randomly coalesce into this comment of mine. I have briefly discussed this in my comment to ROb #438. However, that does not even need to be completely understood for the argument I have provided to stand. Let's say that CSI only does deal with de novo creation -- the extent of the chance hypothesis. Organized CSI is then still the negation of both law and chance, since neither law nor chance define organized CSI. Evolutionary algorithms can also be stated in terms of CSI -- the organization required is specified and highly improbable. So, obviously EAs are not the result of law+chance since they are not defined by law+chance either. Then continue with the argument I have already provided in #348 and #430. efren ts: "To that end, by not taking into account any known physical, chemical, and biological processes, you are arguing against a creation model that no one, but no one, holds to." First, the fact that CSI doesn't negate law is something I've already explained here. Hence the addition of "organized" to CSI in order to arrive at a design inference. Finding an organized pattern and then calculating CSI is the same as running through the EF, negating law and then chance (absent intelligence). Second, I have already responded to almost that exact same statement by Mustela in one of those links that I provided for you ... let's see if I can find it ... yep here it is: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/id-and-common-descent/comment-page-5/#comment-346057 You may find what I have to say there informative. efron ts: "Thus, by such exclusions, you calculation is meaningless." Not at all, for the reasons I've explained in those links I've posted for you including the one above in this comment. You should read through that whole comment as it is extremely relevant. Basically, that calculation does exactly what it is supposed to do -- eliminate the chance hypothesis. efren ts: "I suspect you will take exception to this, so I would ask that you calculate CSI on a hunk of granite as a suitable control." OK, in fact this is something that you could quite easily do I'm sure. First, determine the mass of the granite and then the number of atoms in that mass. Use that number to calculate the number of possible arrangements of that many atoms of those type of minerals in the granite. Then, determine if there is any specificity as I've explained in the link on calculating the CSI of the protein Titin. You will discover that the specificity = 1 since granite can be made of any and all sequential arrangements of those atoms in the chunk of granite. IOW, there is no specificity. As a result, no matter the resources given -- M*N -- or the number of possible arrangements of those atoms -- P(T|H) -- you will have a < 1 value in the calculation and thus no CSI. efren ts: "The second statement is a curious one. It boils down to the ID advocate stating that, in the absence of a fully fleshed out evolutionary pathway, design is the default aassumption nd it is the “evolutionists” responsibility to flesh out the details at some unspecified level of detail." Not at all, as evolutionary algorithms generate CSI all the time. I was merely asking for a demonstration that shows law+chance (absent intelligence) generating CSI. Or, with the exact same set up that I gave, merely show that law+chance will generate an EA. efren ts: "I find it curious that, on a thread dedicated to the proposition that methodological naturalism is excluding ID proponents from engaging in scientific research, that you would propose a program where ID proponents state “Design by default. Prove me wrong”, then periodically survey the current state of research and presumably conclude “Not proven yet. Still design.”" Again, not at all. You either are not understanding what I am stating at all, or you are forgetting everything that we've gone over already, or you are just a master of obfuscation. No where have I stated or implied design by default. I have shown that there exist patterns which are neither defined by law nor by chance yet are observed being generated by intelligence. I have also given an example of organized CSI *requiring* foresight. The next step is merely one of inference. But, I've already gone over this with you. Then, as a matter of potential falsifiability, I have asked you to merely show an example of law+chance (absent intelligence) generating CSI. So far, the ID hypothesis is still standing. Istead of "not proven yet, still designed," it would be "not falsified yet, not defined by law+chance, generated by intelligence, still designed." efern ts: "Not to put too fine a point on it but that isn’t a research program, that is heckling from the sidelines." Finding the limits, if there are any, of law+chance -- especially in relation to patterns neither defined by law nor chance -- isn't a research program? Discovering ways of quantifying and discovering the results of intelligence, when that intelligence can't be directly detected isn't a research program? I guess you are entitled to your opinion. efren ts: "MN isn’t keeping you from doing anything, because your whole program is to wait for someone else to prove you wrong." Eh?!?! You must have missed the research that went into discovering the calculation which reliably eliminates the chance hypothesis (CSI), the research done by Trevor's and Abel and other non-IDers on defining, demarcating, and looking into the cause of "organization" vs. "order", and the extension of the NFLT as researched by Dr.s Dembski and Marks. But yes, so far ID proponents have not been able to falsify that ID hypothesis. Why would they try ... they've set up a no-go theorem akin to stating that perpetual motion free energy machines are impossible. Do you see physicists laboring to falsify that understanding of how energy is transferred? You seems to be trying to distract from the fact that ID critics have not been able to falsify that ID hypothesis which I am discussing. Oh, and of course MN isn't keeping ID proponents from doing anything, because as has been shown in this thread, so far no-one can define "nature" in such a way that it is useful in science and for defining methodological naturalism in such a way that ID Theory is excluded from science.CJYman
February 10, 2010
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