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Michael Behe on the Witness Stand

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As most people are aware, Michael Behe championed the design-inspired ID Theory hypothesis of Irreducible Complexity.  Michael Behe testified as an expert witness in Kitzmiller v. Dover (2005).

Transcripts of all the testimony and proceedings of the Dover trial are available here.  While under oath, he testified that his argument was:

“[T]hat the [scientific] literature has no detailed rigorous explanations for how complex biochemical systems could arise by a random mutation or natural selection.”

Behe was specifically referencing origin of life, molecular and cellular machinery. The cases in point were specifically the bacterial flagellum, cilia, blood-clotting cascade, and the immune system because that’s what Behe wrote about in his book, “Darwin’s Black Box” (1996).

The attorneys piled up a stack of publications regarding the evolution of the immune system just in front of Behe on the witness stand while he was under oath. Behe is criticized by anti-ID antagonists for dismissing the books.

Michael Behe testifies as an expert witness in Kitzmiller v. Dover. Illustration is by Steve Brodner, The New Yorker on Dec. 5, 2005.

The books were essentially how the immune system developed in vertebrates.  But, that isn’t what Intelligent Design theory is based upon. ID Theory is based upon complexity appearing at the outset of life when life first arose, and the complexity that appears during the Cambrian Explosion.

The biochemical structures Behe predicted to be irreducibly complex (bacterial flagellum, cilium, blood-clotting, and immune system) arose during the development of the first cell.  These biochemical systems occur at the molecular level in unicellular eukarya organisms, as evidenced by the fact that retroviruses are in the DNA of these most primitive life forms.  They are complex, highly conserved, and are irreducibly complex.  You can stack a mountain of books and scientific literature on top of this in re how these biochemical systems morphed from that juncture and forward into time, but that has nothing to do with the irreducible complexity of the original molecular machinery. 

The issue regarding irreducible complexity is the source of the original information that produced the irreducibly complex system in the first place.  The scientific literature on the immune system only addresses changes in the immune system after the system already existed and was in place.  For example, the Type III Secretion System Injector (T3SS) is often used to refute the irreducible complexity of flagellar bacteria.  But, the T3SS is not an evolutionary precursor of a bacteria flagella; it was derived subsequently and is evidence of a decrease in information.

The examining attorney, Eric Rothschild, stacked up those books one on top the other for courtroom theatrics.

Behe testified:

“These articles are excellent articles I assume. However, they do not address the question that I am posing. So it’s not that they aren’t good enough. It’s simply that they are addressed to a different subject.”

Those who reject ID Theory and dislike Michael Behe emphasize that since Behe is the one making the claim that the immune system is Irreducibly Complex, then Behe owns the burden to maintain a level of knowledge as what other scientists write on the subject.  It should be noted that there indeed has been a wealth of research on the immune system and the collective whole of the papers published gives us a picture of how the immune system evolved. But, the point that Behe made was there is very little knowledge available, if any, as to how the immune system first arose.

The burden was on the ACLU attorneys representing Kitzmiller to cure the defects of foundation and relevance. But, they never did. But, somehow anti-ID antagonists spin this around to make it look like somehow Behe was in the wrong here, which is entirely unfounded.  Michael Behe responded to the Dover opinion written by John E. Jones III here.  One comment in particular Behe had to say is this:

“I said in my testimony that the studies may have been fine as far as they went, but that they certainly did not present detailed, rigorous explanations for the evolution of the immune system by random mutation and natural selection — if they had, that knowledge would be reflected in more recent studies that I had had a chance to read.”

In a live PowerPoint presentation, Behe had additional comments to make about how the opinion of judge John E. Jones III was not authored by the judge at all, but by an ACLU attorney.  You can see that lecture here.

Immunology
Piling up a stack of books in front of a witness without notice or providing a chance to review the literature before they can provide an educated comment has no value other than courtroom theatrics.

The subject was clear that the issue was biological complexity appearing suddenly at the dawn of life. Behe had no burden to go on a fishing expedition through that material. It was up to the examining attorney to direct Behe’s attention to the specific topic and ask direct questions. But, the attorney never did that.  Read more here.  There is also a related Facebook discussion thread regarding this topic.

Comments
wd400:
The point I’m trying to make is that macroevolutoin is what happens when you have a lot of microevolution in separated gene pools(so changes in one don’t effect the other).
That's the propaganda anyway. Do you have any real world examples? Finch beak variation = micro-evolution. How can that lead to macro? Anti-biotic resistance comes from a loss of function- how is that going to lead to macro?Joe
April 19, 2013
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wd400:
The point I’m trying to make is that macroevolutoin is what happens when you have a lot of microevolution in separated gene pools(so changes in one don’t effect the other).
Yes, microevolution writ large . . . But that still doesn't address any significant novelty in biology. How microevolution stacks up over time to get things like hearts, lungs, eyes, new genera, families, orders, body plans and so on, is very much a part of the question. Just vaguely referring to "microevolution in separated gene pools" doesn't address any issues of biological novelty. And for the moment, whether there are alleged explanations for biological novelty somewhere out there in the literature is a separate issue. Right now we're just trying to pin down a definition. You seem to be taking the position that macroevolution is neither a process nor a result, but a field of study. So are you suggesting that novel phenotypic structures are not examples of macroevolution? What, then, shall we call them? And is microevolution the same thing -- a field of study? ----- And, by the way, I am sure there are some people who haven't thought a lot about the issues and reflexively say something like "this is really complex so it couldn't evolve." Certainly their intuition is leading them in the right direction. But presumably you also know that no prominent ID proponent, nor most of the people on this blog, take that position, so questions here about macroevolution are not based on any such definition.Eric Anderson
April 18, 2013
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It seems that most people, regardless of persuasion, are referring to changes beyond the species level, although, again, we might quibble over how to pin that dowm Macroevolution is about a lot more than that. The point I'm trying to make is that macroevolutoin is what happens when you have a lot of microevolution in separated gene pools(so changes in one don't effect the other). It just happens that the best way to study, say, changes in extinction rate or the correlation between body size and brain-size, isn't to use the tools used to study evolution at the finest grain (just like you don't use quantum mechanics to build bridges). So macroevolution is a field of study, using many different techniques to study patterns and processes of evolution above the species level. As opossed to the creationist version, which, as far as I can tell is declaring "this thing is really complex so couldn't evolve".wd400
April 18, 2013
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RE: My #69, yes that seems correct. The series 6, 8, 8, 7 results in a loss. The first roll is 6, so that establishes the point. The two successive rolls of 8 do nothing, and then 7 ends the run in a loss. This assumes the bet is on the pass line, where an initial roll of 7 or 11 wins but 2, 3, or 12 loses. Any other number establishes the point, which must be rolled again before 7 comes up.Chance Ratcliff
April 18, 2013
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wd400 @71: Thanks. By gene pool, I presume you are referring to a population made up of those individuals that can freely inter-mate. Not 100% tight in terms of definition, but fair enough. This is also similar to many proposed definitions of species. So we can refer to gene pool or species and someone might quibble about which is the best definition/approach, but on the continuum of evolutionary change, in common vernacular we are somewhere near the species level. I haven't done a scientific survey, but my impression is that change beyond the species level is in fact what most people are referring to when they use the word "macroevolution," so I'm still a little unclear on what other creationist definition you think is being used. It seems that most people, regardless of persuasion, are referring to changes beyond the species level, although, again, we might quibble over how to pin that down. I'm wondering, though, if you are trying to draw a strict distinction between what happens within a gene pool and what happens outside, without reference to the magnitude of change. For example, if, within a single gene pool, a new phenotype arises that has, say, a functional eye where none was previously present, would you say this is an example of macroevolutionary change, or is it (by definition) microevolutionary change because it occurred within the same gene pool? Similar question on the other side of the coin. If only small changes happen among two different gene pools, say, just a change in beak size of two different birds that belong to two different gene pools, is that automatically macroevolution because it deals with a change outside of a single gene pool? It seems that "macroevolution" as typically used in the evolutionary literature (i) can refer to changes outside the species level, and (ii) it is generally thought that large morphological changes (eyes, lungs, wings, new body plans, etc.) constitute some of those kinds of changes that would be expected among different gene pools, rather than within a single gene pool. And the word is often used in either or both of those senses. Now we could, of course, take a strict approach to the word and confine it only to changes among gene pools without reference to the kinds of changes in question. But I don't think the word has historically been that limited. And in any event, then we would just have to come up with a new word to describe the kinds of large phenotypic changes that we in fact see.Eric Anderson
April 18, 2013
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Can you succinctly share with us what the real word “macroevolution” means and contrast that with the creationist word “macroevolution”? The simplest meaning is the study of how evolution works among, and not within, genepools. Tools like classical population genetics are very good at telling us about, say, changing allele frequencies and the dynamics of mutations within populations. But when we want to study the results of those processes on broader (or deeper) scales we use other tools (phylogeny, statistical model etc etc). The distinction in "macroevolution" is really a methodological one.wd400
April 18, 2013
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Eric @64, they're doing SCIENCE man! Evolution can proceed by either starting simple and building to complexity, or starting very complex and then winnowing down to "streamlined".
Indeed, what is favored is streamlined simplicity. If functional structures are complex, it may be in part because they start that way, because initial complexity is easy.
Since we all know that initial complexity is easy, and is bound to be at least minimally functional, then letting complexity run downhill from there is a given.
"there is no reason to think that their initial state -- characterized by high levels of differentiation -- is more than minimally functional."
More on "Complexity by Subtraction": You Think They're Kidding? They're Not Please note that this is science, not irreducible complexity. :PChance Ratcliff
April 18, 2013
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Barry @66, Thanks for the comment. I could be mistaken, but I think that in the second series the point is set at 6, then 8 and 8 do nothing, and 7 loses. It's been a while since I played though. :)Chance Ratcliff
April 18, 2013
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mung
Since there are no established text in Nick’s “field,” who can show him to be wrong when he makes his declarations?
you were already given two citations why haven't you looked at those and why are you still claiming that none exist when they obviously do (based on the citations provided for mung)?franklin
April 18, 2013
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EA: "I’m struggling to understand how a complex structure can become more complex by removing parts . . ." Eric, don't ya know, you just to accept that kind of stuff on faith and call anyone who doubts you anti-science :) That's just how science is done nowadays!bornagain77
April 18, 2013
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Chance @ 65: "consider the game of craps. If one were to roll 7, 8, 6, and 8, the outcome is significantly different from 6, 8, 8 and 7. The first series of rolls wins twice, the second series loses" Hmmm. In the first series the 7 comes first, which is win, and then the point is set at 8 on the next roll and hit on the 4th roll. Two wins. You are correct. In the second series the first 6 means nothing. The point is then set at 8 and hit on the next roll for a win. Then the 7 hits for another win. Two wins. Your larger point is obviously true. The same numbers rolled in craps can have radically different outcomes. Your example needs work.Barry Arrington
April 18, 2013
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nightlight @32,
"I still don’t think that the ‘intelligent agency’ is shifting its gears and changing its ways when switching between phenomena based on the level of our current understanding of those phenomena, or our notions du jour of “random” vs “contingent” vs “intelligently guided” — it does what it does for reasons of its own regardless of how much of it we presently understand."
I think I understand what you're getting at, if the intelligent agency you're referring to is the one presumed to have created life and the universe of law-like regularities. Contingency can be understood to be that which is logically neither impossible nor necessary. Discrete arrangements of matter qualify here, as long as the matter is inert with respect to its arrangement. Stephen Meyer uses magnetic letters as an example. They stick to a metal surface by necessity, but their ordering is contingent. In this regard contingency can be partitioned between random and specified. Random arrangements carry no definite meaning beyond the individual letters themselves, while specification conveys a message (all valid messages in a given language constitute a small subset of meaningful arrangements out of all the possible permutations). Randomness, with regard to uniform distribution, is destructive to specification, and specification destroys randomness. In this regard, the two are essentially mutually exclusive when fully expressed -- imposing a random distribution of letters upon a message will destroy the message, and imposing a meaningful message atop a random distribution will destroy the random distribution. The nature of randomness is a bit enigmatic, but it's rules are straightforward. I'll use a discrete example. For a set of elements S with cardinality n, a uniformly random selection of N elements from the set will approach an even distribution of the elements s1, s2, ..., sn as N gets very large. This is just another way of saying that, for example, if one rolls a fair die then after a very large number of trials the occurrence of ones will approach the same count as the occurrence of twos, and of threes, fours, and so on. The more trials, the more alike the counts will be in proportion to the total number of trials. With regard to the nature of randomness, we can consider both epistemological and ontological forms. Epistemological chance has to do with our ignorance of events, where a combination of deterministic factors influence the outcome of an event, but are too numerous or too unpredictable to account for. The outcome of a die roll is essentially an occurrence of epistemological chance. Physics can account for the outcome, so it's basically deterministic, but it's practically impossible to predict the result of a fair roll. Ontological chance -- which only arguably exists -- would be causal and nondeterministic, unaccountable to prior physical conditions. The location of an electron with regard to an atom could arguably be considered an example of ontological chance. But regardless of the nature of randomenss -- epistemological or ontological -- it has an important property, at least in the discrete case: the uniform distribution of all elements in a set. Even for most non-uniform distributions, the result will approach the expected value as the number of trials gets large. With all that in mind, it's not logically impossible for intelligence to either: a) influence the outcomes of random events to some degree; or b) simulate random outcomes. For the latter, pseudo-random number generators are common and can even be cryptographically secure depending on how the seed is chosen. For the former, influencing random events toward a goal will destroy the random distribution. This is the crux of the problem with positing intelligent guidance through random events. While small and infrequent influences may not be measurable and hence not detectable, the attempt to arrive at specification through the influence of random events will, by necessity, make the result non-random. (Incidentally, necessity has a destructive relationship with contingency. The full expression of one is destructive to the other.) For an example of how a random outcome might be altered without upsetting the distributions, consider the game of craps. If one were to roll 7, 8, 6, and 8, the outcome is significantly different from 6, 8, 8 and 7. The first series of rolls wins twice, the second series loses; but the distribution remains undisturbed. A being with the requisite abilities could alter the order of outcomes in his favor without upsetting the distribution, as long as the influences were slight and relatively infrequent. So if you're suggesting that certain types of random events are guided, that may well be the case; but with only minor exceptions -- slight and infrequent influences -- random events must actually be random or they no longer fit the definition. A thing cannot be both specified and random, unless it's actually specified to be random, as in the case of pseudo-random number generators. For this reason it's difficult to account for guidance through random factors for highly specified results, because specified results are entirely non-random. Perhaps you have something else in mind, but it should be noted that only discrete intervention, either up front or over time, seems to allow a designing agent to produce a specific result; neither necessity nor randomness can be used to build certain types of highly specified systems, because the sort of specificity that produces complex and integrated functional systems through digital codes processed by mechanical systems appears completely incompatible with chance and necessity.Chance Ratcliff
April 18, 2013
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BA77 @50: Regarding the "Complexity by Subtraction" article: Didn't we just get through discussing on another thread the "assume a can opener" fallacy? That is really what the authors are doing to try and "explain" the evolution of complex features. They start by saying "Assume a more complex structure . . ." In fairness, there are probably lots of examples in nature in which a complex structure got broken, fell out of use, etc. and ended up as a simpler structure. But in that case it would be "Simplicity by Subtraction" wouldn't it? I'm struggling to understand how a complex structure can become more complex by removing parts . . .Eric Anderson
April 18, 2013
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wd400 @62:
. . . which are parts of macroevolution (the field, not the creationist version of the word).
Can you succinctly share with us what the real word "macroevolution" means and contrast that with the creationist word "macroevolution"? Thanks.Eric Anderson
April 18, 2013
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Publishers certainly make a lot of money in text books. Authors not so much. In any case. Macroevolution is a field of study, but I don't know of any texts devoted to it specifically. There texts on phylogeny, phylogenetic comparative methods, speciation, genome evolution and paleontology, which are parts of macroevolution (the field, not the creationist version of the word).wd400
April 18, 2013
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Perhaps a review is in order. Nick arrived in a huff one day whining that his "field" was being misunderstood, misrepresented and denigrated. His "field"? Macro-Evolutionary Theory. So I wanted to educate myself. I wanted Prof Tour to educate himself. I wanted everyone at UD to educate themselves. So I ask Nick for the leading textbook in his "field" of Macro-Evolutionary Theory. Silence. So I ask Nick for any textbook in his "field" of Macro-Evolutionary Theory. Silence. Must be nice to be able to manufacture a "field" and then complain at will about people misunderstanding or misrepresenting it. (Sort of like "the field" of "Intelligent Design" eh?) Since there are no established text in Nick's "field," who can show him to be wrong when he makes his declarations? Whatever Nick's engaged in, it isn't science.Mung
April 18, 2013
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Hi Andre, We have it on good authority that what you are describing is not macro-evolution. Anything involving chemical/bio-chemical changes is clearly NOT macro-evolution.Mung
April 18, 2013
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wd400, Have you seen the price of textbooks lately!? Someone is making money.Mung
April 18, 2013
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5for, I know you are being petty because you consider the alternative to naturalism unthinkable, but actually, in regards to your question, there is actually fairly good evidence tracing the ancestry of man back pretty far:
Tracing your Ancestors through History - Paul James-Griffiths - video http://edinburghcreationgroup.org/video/1
Moreover, at around the 6:00 minute mark of the preceding video, one finds that the first 'advanced' human civilization, (with the oldest archeological evidence of metallurgy, agriculture, wine making, etc...), flourished near, or at, the Ankara area,,,(The Ankara area is called Anatolia in the video). Moreover, the Ankara area is the 'center of the surface of the earth':
The Center of the Earth by Henry Morris, Ph.D. Excerpt: The problem is basically to determine that point on the earth’s surface, the average distance from which to all other points on the earth’s land surfaces is a minimum. This point is defined as the earth’s geographical center. (1) Divide all the earth’s land areas into small, equal, unit areas. (2) Select one of these unit areas as a possible location of the earth’s center. (3) Measure the distance along the earth’s surface from this reference area to each of the other unit areas, all over the earth. (4) Add up all these distances and divide the total by the number of individual distances measured. The result is the average distance from the reference area to all the other unit areas around the world. (5) Repeat the entire process in steps (1) through (4) above for each one of all the other unit areas around the world. (6) Compare the "average distances" so calculated for all the different unit areas. The one for which the average distance turns out to be the smallest is the earth’s geographical center. Actually, the calculation becomes feasible only if it can be programmed on a high speed computer. To accomplish the latter requires a knowledge of spherical trigonometry, geodesy, calculus, and computer science. In addition, there must be available accurate data on the earth’s land and water areas, arranged in a grid network tied to latitude and longitude. With these factors present, the computation then becomes quite feasible. RESULTS ,,, The exact center of the earth, insofar as Mr. Woods’ calculations could determine, was found to be near Ankara, the present capital of Turkey, at latitude 39° and longitude 34°, on the same latitude as Mount Ararat and essentially the same longitude as Jerusalem.,,, http://www.icr.org/article/50/
And although, because of his Young Earth Biblical view, Paul James-Griffiths did not give the dating of the area, the dating of the first 'advanced' human civilization, around that area, is dated to around 12,000 years before the present:
Stone Age Temple May Be Birthplace of Civilization Excerpt: The elaborate temple at Gobelki Tepe in southeastern Turkey, near the Syrian border, is staggeringly ancient: 11,500 years old, from a time just before humans learned to farm grains and domesticate animals. According to the German archaeologist in charge of excavations at the site, it might be the birthplace of agriculture, of organized religion — of civilization itself. http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/gobeklitepe/index
Now this is very interesting!,,, That the first archeological evidence for a 'advanced' human civilization, with metallurgy, wine making, agriculture, would be very near, or even at, the 'geographic center of the earth' is a very 'spooky' thing for modern science to find! Pondering all the many places where the beginning of advanced human civilization 'could have' happened, instead of where it actually 'did happen', should make any reasonable person scratch their head in wonder! Moreover, besides the 12,000 years before present starting point for the beginning of 'advanced' human civilization, there is now mounting evidence for global catastrophic flooding, or 'megafloods', 13,000 years before the present:
Humanpast.net Excerpt: Worldwide, we know that the period of 14,000 to 13,000 years ago, which coincides with the peak of abundant monsoonal rains over India, was marked by violent oceanic flooding - in fact, the first of the three great episodes of global superfloods that dominated the meltdown of the Ice Age. The flooding was fed not merely by rain but by the cataclysmic synchronous collapse of large ice-masses on several different continents and by gigantic inundations of meltwater pouring down river systems into the oceans. (124) What happened, at around 13,000 years ago, was that the long period of uninterrupted warming that the world had just passed through (and that had greatly intensified, according to some studies, between 15,000 years ago and 13,000 years ago) was instantly brought to a halt - all at once, everywhere - by a global cold event known to palaeo climatologists as the 'Younger Dryas' or 'Dryas III'. In many ways mysterious and unexplained, this was an almost unbelievably fast climatic reversion - from conditions that are calculated to have been warmer and wetter than today's 13,000 years ago, to conditions that were colder and drier than those at the Last Glacial Maximum, not much more than a thousand years later. From that moment, around 12,800 years ago, it was as though an enchantment of ice had gripped the earth. In many areas that had been approaching terminal meltdown full glacial conditions were restored with breathtaking rapidity and all the gains that had been made since the LGM were simply stripped away…(124) A great, sudden extinction took place on the planet, perhaps as recently as 11,500 years ago (usually attributed to the end of that last ice age), in which hundreds of mammal and plant species disappeared from the face of the earth, driven into deep caverns and charred muck piles the world over. Modern science, with all its powers and prejudices, has been unable to adequately explain this event. (83) http://humanpast.net/environment/environment11k.htm
bornagain77
April 18, 2013
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Andre @44 Andre could you please give me a step by step account of your ancestry starting from 500 generations ago to the present day. If you can't do that, should I doubt that you exist?5for
April 18, 2013
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Yes Chance, I thought lifepsy did an excellent job on the videos. I asked kf to post one, or perhaps a few of them, to bring more attention to them but nothing ever came of it. They are gems in my book though!bornagain77
April 18, 2013
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BA77 @46, I'm finding lifepsy's videos very helpful, and worth paying careful attention to, specifically the Research & Reflection on Evolution playlist. They generally warrant more than one viewing to absorb the material. I hope he continues to produce them.Chance Ratcliff
April 18, 2013
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footnote to post 49 'evolution by splicing' link:
,,,Alternative splicing,,, may contribute to species differences - December 21, 2012 Excerpt: After analyzing vast amounts of genetic data, the researchers found that the same genes are expressed in the same tissue types, such as liver or heart, across mammalian species. However, alternative splicing patterns—which determine the segments of those genes included or excluded—vary from species to species.,,, The results from the alternative splicing pattern comparison were very different. Instead of clustering by tissue, the patterns clustered mostly by species. "Different tissues from the cow look more like the other cow tissues, in terms of splicing, than they do like the corresponding tissue in mouse or rat or rhesus," Burge says. Because splicing patterns are more specific to each species, it appears that splicing may contribute preferentially to differences between those species, Burge says,,, Excerpt of Abstract: To assess tissue-specific transcriptome variation across mammals, we sequenced complementary DNA from nine tissues from four mammals and one bird in biological triplicate, at unprecedented depth. We find that while tissue-specific gene expression programs are largely conserved, alternative splicing is well conserved in only a subset of tissues and is frequently lineage-specific. Thousands of previously unknown, lineage-specific, and conserved alternative exons were identified; http://phys.org/news/2012-12-evolution-alternative-splicing-rna-rewires.html
Finding widely different ‘alternative splicing codes’ regulating ‘alternative splicing events’ of different species is devastating to neo-Darwinism because of neo-Darwinism’s inability to account for any changes of any fundamental code once it is in place. The reason why drastically different alternative splicing codes between different species is devastating to neo-Darwinian evolution is partly seen by understanding ‘Shannon Channel Capacity’:
“Because of Shannon channel capacity that previous (first) codon alphabet had to be at least as complex as the current codon alphabet (DNA code), otherwise transferring the information from the simpler alphabet into the current alphabet would have been mathematically impossible” Donald E. Johnson – Bioinformatics: The Information in Life Shannon Information – Channel Capacity – Perry Marshall – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5457552/
But the reason why this is so devastating to neo-Darwinian evolution is perhaps best understood by taking a look at what Richard Dawkins said about what would happen if one were to ‘randomly’ change the genetic code once it is in place:
Venter vs. Dawkins on the Tree of Life – and Another Dawkins Whopper – March 2011 Excerpt:,,, But first, let’s look at the reason Dawkins gives for why the code must be universal: “The reason is interesting. Any mutation in the genetic code itself (as opposed to mutations in the genes that it encodes) would have an instantly catastrophic effect, not just in one place but throughout the whole organism. If any word in the 64-word dictionary changed its meaning, so that it came to specify a different amino acid, just about every protein in the body would instantaneously change, probably in many places along its length. Unlike an ordinary mutation…this would spell disaster.” (2009, p. 409-10) OK. Keep Dawkins’ claim of universality in mind, along with his argument for why the code must be universal, and then go here (linked site listing 23 variants of the genetic code). Simple counting question: does “one or two” equal 23? That’s the number of known variant genetic codes compiled by the National Center for Biotechnology Information. By any measure, Dawkins is off by an order of magnitude, times a factor of two. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/03/venter_vs_dawkins_on_the_tree_044681.html
Bottom line is that if any regulatory code, such as the alternative splicing code, is ‘randomly changed’ in part, it throws the entire code out of whack and will be ‘instantly catastrophic’, to use Richard Dawkins most appropriate words, thus rendering gradual change impossible. The entire code must be implemented 'top down' when the species is created: It is also interesting to remember how hard it was to crack the alternative splicing code for humans:
Breakthrough: Second Genetic Code Revealed - May 2010 Excerpt: The paper is a triumph of information science that sounds reminiscent of the days of the World War II codebreakers. Their methods included algebra, geometry, probability theory, vector calculus, information theory, code optimization, and other advanced methods. One thing they had no need of was evolutionary theory,,, http://crev.info/content/breakthrough_second_genetic_code_revealed
Also of note
“In the last ten years, at least 20 different natural information codes were discovered in life, each operating to arbitrary conventions (not determined by law or physicality). Examples include protein address codes [Ber08B], acetylation codes [Kni06], RNA codes [Fai07], metabolic codes [Bru07], cytoskeleton codes [Gim08], histone codes [Jen01], and alternative splicing codes [Bar10]. Donald E. Johnson – Programming of Life – pg.51 – 2010 "Our experience-based knowledge of information-flow confirms that systems with large amounts of specified complexity (especially codes and languages) invariably originate from an intelligent source -- from a mind or personal agent." (Stephen C. Meyer, "The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories," Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, 117(2):213-239 (2004).) "A code system is always the result of a mental process (it requires an intelligent origin or inventor). It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code. All experiences indicate that a thinking being voluntarily exercising his own free will, cognition, and creativity, is required. ,,,there is no known law of nature and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter. Werner Gitt 1997 In The Beginning Was Information pp. 64-67, 79, 107." (The retired Dr Gitt was a director and professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology (Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt, Braunschweig), the Head of the Department of Information Technology.)
Verse and music:
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. Kutless: Promise of a Lifetime - Live http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wgA93WQWKE
bornagain77
April 18, 2013
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Hey Andre- Lizzie Liddle sez that if you use Google Scholar you will find the answers to your questions. And she really believes that, which I think is sad because she obviously hasn't read any of the sources she sights. If she had she would see the questions are not answered. Heck one book she cites can't even demonstrate bacteria can evolve into something other than bacteria. Yet it says something about the evolution of the heart from bacteria to man. So if you like a literature bluff, use google scholar but don't read the references. For example the first two links in her lung link is about comparitve anatomy- not genetics nor even evo-devo. IOW not one word about mutations to what genes producing what result. Seriously laughable...Joe
April 18, 2013
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BA77 @50, I read that article this morning -- amazing. The last paragraph hits the nail on the head.Chance Ratcliff
April 18, 2013
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jerry @48: Except that "evolution" is in fact used to mean a great many things, including things that go far beyond change in allele frequency. Indeed, the primary rhetorical trick of the larger evolutionary storyline is to define evolution as "change over time" or "change in allele frequency" -- which no-one disagrees with -- and then piggyback on the evidence for those minor microevolutionary changes in an attempt to prove the larger materialist creation storyline, for which there isn't good evidence. The better approach, rather than trying to go along with this definition of evolution is to point out that evolution has numerous meanings, ranging from the obvious and the well-supported to the outrageous and the wildly-speculative. And that, further, the whole enterprise is assumed to operate without any plan, purpose, or direction. The right answer when someone asks whether I believe in evolution is not "yes" or "no," hoping that we are using the same definition. Rather, the correct response is: "Depends. What do you mean by evolution?"Eric Anderson
April 18, 2013
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Of note: More on "Complexity by Subtraction": You Think They're Kidding? They're Not - April 18, 2013 Bottom Line: Advocates of intelligent design can take heart at this paper. That scientists at the NSF-funded National Center for Evolutionary Synthesis would seriously entertain this absurd hypothesis is a sign of general desperation. Darwinists know what they're up against, they recognize the power of the challenge posed by ID, and they have no rigorous answers. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/04/theyve_got_to_b071241.htmlbornagain77
April 18, 2013
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as to:
That has all changed thanks to evo-devo.
And yet:
Darwin or Design? - Paul Nelson at Saddleback Church - Nov. 2012 - ontogenetic depth - No Evidence For Body Plan Morphogenesis From Embryonic Mutations (excellent update) - video Text from one of the Saddleback slides: 1. Animal body plans are built in each generation by a stepwise process, from the fertilized egg to the many cells of the adult. The earliest stages in this process determine what follows. 2. Thus, to change -- that is, to evolve -- any body plan, mutations expressed early in development must occur, be viable, and be stably transmitted to offspring. 3. But such early-acting mutations of global effect are those least likely to be tolerated by the embryo. Losses of structures are the only exception to this otherwise universal generalization about animal development and evolution. Many species will tolerate phenotypic losses if their local (environmental) circumstances are favorable. Hence island or cave fauna often lose (for instance) wings or eyes. http://www.saddleback.com/mc/m/7ece8/ Understanding Ontogenetic Depth, Part II: Natural Selection Is a Harsh Mistress - Paul Nelson - April 7, 2011 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/04/understanding_ontogenetic_dept_1045581.html
Moreover:
Evolution by Splicing - Comparing gene transcripts from different species reveals surprising splicing diversity. - Ruth Williams - December 20, 2012 Excerpt: A major question in vertebrate evolutionary biology is “how do physical and behavioral differences arise if we have a very similar set of genes to that of the mouse, chicken, or frog?”,,, A commonly discussed mechanism was variable levels of gene expression, but both Blencowe and Chris Burge,,, found that gene expression is relatively conserved among species. On the other hand, the papers show that most alternative splicing events differ widely between even closely related species. “The alternative splicing patterns are very different even between humans and chimpanzees,” said Blencowe.,,, http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view%2FarticleNo%2F33782%2Ftitle%2FEvolution-by-Splicing%2F The mouse is not enough - February 2011 Excerpt: Richard Behringer, who studies mammalian embryogenesis at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Texas said, “There is no ‘correct’ system. Each species is unique and uses its own tailored mechanisms to achieve development. By only studying one species (eg, the mouse), naive scientists believe that it represents all mammals.” http://www.the-scientist.com/news/display/57986/ Humans, Chimpanzees and Monkeys Share DNA but Not Gene Regulatory Mechanisms - (Nov. 6, 2012) Excerpt: Dr. Gilad reported that up to 40% of the differences in the expression or activity patterns of genes between humans, chimpanzees and rhesus monkeys can be explained by regulatory mechanisms that determine whether and how a gene's recipe for a protein is transcribed to the RNA molecule that carries the recipe instructions to the sites in cells where proteins are manufactured.,,, Dr. Gilad also determined that the epigenetics process known as histone modification also differs in the three species. The presence of histone marks during gene transcription indicates that the process is being prevented or modified. "These data allowed us to identify both conserved and species-specific enhancer and repressor regulatory elements, as well as characterize similarities and differences across species in transcription factor binding to these regulatory elements," Dr. Gilad said. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121106201124.htm
bornagain77
April 18, 2013
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Eric, You are coming around to the position I was arguing here 6 years ago: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/uk-organization-promoting-the-teaching-scientific-criticisms-of-darwinian-theory/#comment-64266 And continued to argue over the years. The evolution argument has always been about alleles and their origin. By pointing out that Darwinian processes (code word for naturalistic processes) are limited, you put the anti ID people in a box. The key is separating the two and clearly doing it.jerry
April 18, 2013
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bornagain77:
Now if I were a Darwinist trying to explain widely divergent phenotypes on the basis of changes to genotypes, the preceding would not be comforting to me at all.
That has all changed thanks to evo-devo. Now it isn't so much changing genotypes but the way the genotypes are used, especially during development. Same genes used in different ways is now the mechanism for macroevolutionary change - see Shubin "Your Inner Fish".Joe
April 18, 2013
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